Bad arguments are slugs you chew on a bit, and then spit out,
or
On dream metaphors


No, don't turn away in disgust!



So the other night I had this most disgusting dream I can remember: In my dream, I was doing some thinking, then realized the argument was bad, and (in my dream) I spat that argument out. And when it landed on the ground I saw it was a slug, a bit chewed, but still moving. I then got the feeling that all the while I was thinking, using that argument, that argument felt bad, disgusting -- and as I spat it out, I saw it was something disgusting.


The contemporary theory of metaphor by Lakoff (http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~market/semiotic/lkof_met.html) says that metaphors are about thinking of one phenomenon in the conceptual domain of another phenomenon. -- As I was thinking of bad arguments in the domain of slugs: both had the same property of being disgusting and something one can chew and then spit out.



What are your most vivid dream metaphors?
(That is, when you knew, in your dream, that it was a metaphor.)

I can't even begin... most of the time I don't even bother trying to figure out the metaphors. I'll have to chew on it a bit.

But what a wonderful metaphor! In that sense, it's amazing what arguments people will swallow, isn't it?

A favorite dream metaphor of mine is the twin staircases that extend infinitly in the vertical directions. They are linked together periodically by a hallway, and have infinite doors/rooms connected to them. It only recently popped into my head that this might be a metaphor for the double helix/dna.

An old wisdom says that all dreams have a part connected with reality, a part connected to your experience of it, and a part pure rubbish :)

once in a dream i found a homonculi, and i didn't like him, so i filled a crock pot with water, stuck him in and turned it on high. turns out the crock pot was on my nightstand. then i realized what the source was. Earlier that day i saw Food TV show on oatmeal, and the guy had a crock pot on his nightstand. and the homunculi came from a movie i watched right before bedtime. The movie was Bruce campbell vs. the army of darkness. if you've seen it, you'll know what im talking about. :m:

I have been summoned.

Excellent thread.

The contemporary theory of metaphor by Lakoff says that metaphors are about thinking of one phenomenon in the conceptual domain of another phenomenon. -- As I was thinking of bad arguments in the domain of slugs: both had the same property of being disgusting and something one can chew and then spit out.

Or in other words, the complex stripped down to simplicity by the use of eery background for context.
For example- I remember being fascinated by death since birth. But I never saw it other than in the form of insects crumbled up on the window sill or the occasional piece of roadkill.

Never human death.
With a mind so curious yet insatiated, it became a problem or image complicated by obsession. I could never picture a dead human while thinking about it, until I had a dream.
This may sound silly, but we're discussing things so: I dreamt I was playing hopscotch in Russia, why, I don't know.
The girl in front of me stopped, looked up, and cried 'Earthquake!'
She ran and I followed- we both ran and ran while the ground below was splitting to pieces. I saw her drop into a hole in front of me so I ran to catch up.
And looking down, almost greedy to see, I saw not a human bludgeoned to death or drenched in blood...but a very long French fry smeared with ketchup.
Also, I remember having dreams of father coming into my room to touch my face, I grab onto his finger, he pulls away, and his finger is left in my hand.
Both showed me the absurdity or death- that death makes no sense. That death does not come with the dramatic hysteria we imagine and could easily be explained by the cartoon imagery of a child.


Your dream metaphor symbolized this idea of philosophers chewing cud, like fat cows squatting out in pastures doing absolutely nothing but chewing their bad arguments.

I like that interpretation.

may i enquire as to what in death you find so perplexing? I also find it fascinating, but not confusing...

Unsound:
may i enquire as to what in death you find so perplexing?
Its careless absolutism.

The word is not 'perplexing' I think, more like absurd or intriguing. You look down on the mummified remains of Bentham sitting up in London's University College, or Lenin and Stalin embalmed in the Kremlin (before Stalin was removed) and you think....."these were powerful men. Death does what Nietzche supposedly did- its killed gods."

True. They were powerful men. But.... actually, no your right, it is absurd. I think though, to kill Gods is somewhat an exaggeration. Using the examples you gave, those men still live in a way. Of course, their image would be much clearer if they were alive, but i think it is nearer to say perhaps that death fades the image of gods..... it cannot, though... kill them ;).

Logically:
True. They were powerful men. But.... actually, no your right, it is absurd. I think though, to kill Gods is somewhat an exaggeration. Using the examples you gave, those men still live in a way. Of course, their image would be much clearer if they were alive, but i think it is nearer to say perhaps that death fades the image of gods..... it cannot, though... kill them
Hmm.

Well imagine an asshole you know personally. Imagine a nightmare personified, someone who in your life tormets you with their very presence.
A human mind is something powerful- yet vulnerable to psychology.
So imagine how much power that asshole can have over you with his commentary and his actions against you- I call it soul murder.
He (like an insolent boss or a suffocating mother, lover, or friend) weilds a power over you so potent he no longer requires being present.
Like God.
Now imagine that asshole, dead on the floor.

Problems over, you're free. What you thought would last a lifetime or perhaps take a miracle to overcome has just been made slop by the razor sharp slap of "la muerte".
Its just killed your most personal god, not paled him.

Most true. 'Soul Murder'. very poetic.

Good point, but this IS just one asshole we're talking about. What I was talking about was the errrr, great assholes if you want, who while having their effect lessened by being dead, still impact upon our society and social history, due to the magnitude.
to extend your metaphor, imagine that this asshole, during his 'reign of terror' caused you severe phycological harm (e.g. paranoia) which lasts you the rest of your life. Thus, this asshole is still effecting you after death, but his effect is of course, lessned due to his death. Point is, errr.... you know what i was saying right?

As a a side question, you mentioned the remains of (in specific) Lenin and Stalin. Stalin in particular, was an asshole (as a guess). Surley many historical figures have not been killed by their deaths, people who died 3,000 years ago still have their ideas reverberated around society (off the top of my head, Plato). Are these people truly dead? Not really.... or completly at least....

Excellent thread.

Gramercy.


Or in other words, the complex stripped down to simplicity by the use of eery background for context.

Sometimes -- although let's not forget that if we pick a certain goal domain, in which we conceptualize something, the choice of metaphor can lead to odd results, or even be very misleading, like:

"The soul is a bird, carried on the wings of experience." And then someone would say: If it is a bird, does it poo too, does it change feathers? Does it lay eggs? Thus, the choice of metaphor can sometimes force us to see things in the phenomenon we are concenptualizing with it, that are not necessarily important to that phenomenon.

Or the very misleading metphors for the human brain -- when we conceptualize the brain in the conceptual domain of a computer and say that the brain has something like a harddrive, a RAM, a processor: such a conceptualization isn't necessarily true for the brain, yet it is often used.


For example- I remember being fascinated by death since birth. But I never saw it other than in the form of insects crumbled up on the window sill or the occasional piece of roadkill.

Never human death.
/.../
Both showed me the absurdity or death- that death makes no sense. That death does not come with the dramatic hysteria we imagine and could easily be explained by the cartoon imagery of a child.

I must say that I was never fascinated by death. I saw my first dead body when I was 5 or 6, and I have seen many afterwards. You see, this is Europe, and esp. in the country, the funeral ceremonies are very oldfashioned; although things are getting "modern" here too.

Traditionally, the deceased is lying in his or her coffin (I think that first lady I saw was even only lying on the table), in their home or in the chapel, and people come to bemourn the deceased -- prayers are held, and there is always someone waking with the dead. (If it is winter, the deceased can be lying in the coffin for three days, but in the summer, things go faster, because of the heat.) Then, at the day of the funeral, the coffin with the deceased is carried to the church, where a mass is held, and then carried to the cemetery. A funeral can be several hours long. Then the burial with all the prayers, speeches and everything. After the funeral, there's usually a feast.

Well, yes. I have never developed much fascination for death, as it has always been such a natural part of life.

But it must be that the fear of death is really a fear that one lives a meaningless life.


This may sound silly, but we're discussing things so: I dreamt I was playing hopscotch in Russia, why, I don't know.
The girl in front of me stopped, looked up, and cried 'Earthquake!'
She ran and I followed- we both ran and ran while the ground below was splitting to pieces. I saw her drop into a hole in front of me so I ran to catch up.
And looking down, almost greedy to see, I saw not a human bludgeoned to death or drenched in blood...but a very long French fry smeared with ketchup.

I also dream of earthquakes sometimes. Must think more.


Also, I remember having dreams of father coming into my room to touch my face, I grab onto his finger, he pulls away, and his finger is left in my hand.

Yes, things falling off, or living things turning into dead -- a common guest in my dreams.


Death does what Nietzche supposedly did- its killed gods.

Death be not proud ...


***

Here's my latest dreammetaphor [my, it looks nice, typed together]:

A headless woman with an antenna on each shoulder. Meaning that people are headless ('lacking their own mind') and guided by whatever their antennas catch. That woman was trying to tell me something in my dream, but I couldn't understand her.

I sometimes dream of people, normally imaginary ones, sometimes existing ones, that have a constantly changing face. Sometimes it keeps the old features, other times it is a completely different one. I take it as a metaphor for the fact that people are not always what they seem, or they display only a mask of their real self, etc.

Sometimes, they even change their whole body, but I think it does not alter the interpretation in a great way.

Rosa:
Sometimes -- although let's not forget that if we pick a certain goal domain, in which we conceptualize something, the choice of metaphor can lead to odd results, or even be very misleading, like:

"The soul is a bird, carried on the wings of experience." And then someone would say: If it is a bird, does it poo too, does it change feathers? Does it lay eggs? Thus, the choice of metaphor can sometimes force us to see things in the phenomenon we are concenptualizing with it, that are not necessarily important to that phenomenon.

Or the very misleading metphors for the human brain -- when we conceptualize the brain in the conceptual domain of a computer and say that the brain has something like a harddrive, a RAM, a processor: such a conceptualization isn't necessarily true for the brain, yet it is often used.


So true, which is one of the misdemeanors of language.
Not sure if you're acquainted with a philosopher named Wittgenstein but he says, roughly, what you are saying.

As example:
If I explain to you that I rode from New York to Texas, the language is set in its ambiguity- just think about the image you thought of.
You thought of a car.
When it could have been an ambulance, or a plane or a train or I rode there on roller-skates.
But a car seems obvious. So one must always examine the context.
The same with our use of pronouns, it seems we will have more respect for God and not god.
In a simple statement, many images are invoked because we cannot or will not, in our language, spell everything out.
Therefore, much of what goes without saying, goes into the problems we think are there and philosophers are sure to expound them.

But it must be that the fear of death is really a fear that one lives a meaningless life.

Indeed.
I already know why death, mostly, is fascinating to me- concealment stirs enchantment.

Logically sound:
As a a side question, you mentioned the remains of (in specific) Lenin and Stalin. Stalin in particular, was an asshole (as a guess). Surley many historical figures have not been killed by their deaths, people who died 3,000 years ago still have their ideas reverberated around society (off the top of my head, Plato). Are these people truly dead? Not really.... or completly at least....
That their ideas are timeless?

But you have to admit its mighty thrilling to find one's troubles can die today if the human responsible for them died today.
You walk away with battle scars from the shame or guilt they instilled in you but at the very least, another scar is impossible.

Latest dreammetaphor:
That I looked down on my palms and they were bleeding ink. This told me something about being a writer, in that perhaps all writers suffer stigmata.