Something is going to happen, and it is going to happen very, very, soon.

On the live news channels like CNN, they've just reported missiles have been discovered in Iraq that are in clear breach of the UN security counsel's resolutions. That is because, theses missiles can travel beyond that range allowed by the UN. The maximum range permitted is 93 miles, theses missiles may be able to travel 150 miles. The chief weapon inspectors will allow make another report to the UN security counsel tomorrow.

They've also just reported, North Korea may have missiles capable of reaching the western coast of the u.s. On top of the fact they may be able to use spent fuel rods from their nuclear reactors for plutonium.

They've also just recommended to americans, along with the increased threat level of orange, that people should stock up on emergency supplies in case of a terrorists attack. The attack could be a bio, or chemical attack on a water supply, or in densely populated areas; or possibly the likes of a bomb being detonated at a mall or hotel.

And now the president is coming to my home town this morning, and will be traveling throughout the rest of Florida I think they just reported.

Oh boy, I can't wait :( Something is going to happen, and I reckon it will be within the next few days.

Tolerance, respect, understanding and logic.

When will people get it ?

I am truly dissapointed in our race: is this really the best we can
do ? I still have hope for this planet and its inhabitants... but gee.

You forget that India and Pakistan have nucleair weapons AND a conflict.

US are going to attack Iraq anyway, rockets or not. There is too much depending on it from an economic point of view, and as you know Economy is the only God. (as in: God bless America)

North Korea will think twice before attacking with nucleair weapons or before attacking at all. If they do, they'll be wiped in no time. US will andwer with da bomb as well.

maybe belgium will intervene and bring worldpeace to us all

Iraqi missiles that can go 150 Miles?:eek: DUCK AND COVER AMERICANS!!! :mad: And all you kids who joined up for some college tuition- Start Fightin' and Dyin' NOW!!:bugeye:

Does the Bush administration make any sense? Are we all going mad?

The world lost its sanity a long time ago.

when america attacts to another country,its called war; and whenever they hit us its terror.. is it fair-what do you think?

Anyone hear about some guy that wrote an article about "How to catch a terrorist with duct tape and plastic" ? I've heard rumors that after that article, all the Home Depot's around my area are sold out of duct tape.....And there are suspicions about a chemical bomb (whatever that means...the good old dynamite is chemical isn't it?) around NYC.

And because of all these rumors, kids in my school are starting to stereotype the "enemy" as I've heard many times just today. I find it very disturbing that after one kid said if he'd see a "raghead" he'll beat him on the spot....and even worse, a girl responded by saying that the Iraqi's were the ones we're fighting. I haven't seen a question asking if the Iraqi people are in support of Saddam's way of governing....but the President has made it clear that if war were to be enacted, it would be to take Saddam out of power........will the Iraqi people fight for Saddam out of their homes or will they rejoice as, "America, God bless America for saving our souls!" ?. But before that can be answered, some Americans need to know that this isn't fighting against the Iraqi people, it's against their government. Although that is fighting the people but indirectly fighting them.

when america attacts to another country,its called war; and whenever they hit us its terror.. is it fair-what do you think?
The President is steamlining his "War against terror" and he'll use that for rallying support against any opposition he sees fit for invading. He'll also push the being-a-coward-bit if we are attacked by a single missle from another country, and since the attack was not organized and not conducted to what conventional warfare is thought as, it's terror. Terrorism can be what ever you want it to be as long as you have something that's bigger and less "cowardly."

<i>"Something is going to happen, and it is going to happen very, very, soon."</i>

Damn right! The world is about to change. Hang on! :D

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Don't act so surprised.

grazzhopa..
america is bombing iraq's oil reserves and oil companies nonstop for the last 12 years.. many (less crowdy) innocent people are dying every day.. what do you thing/ is it war or terror?
and one more thing.. do you really believe its america's business to save the people from their presidents..? i do not know if you checked middle eastern newspapers but, citizens support for him is 100%..
america wants to put a puppet government over there, thats it all about..

Originally posted by pillowtalk
grazzhopa..
america is bombing iraq's oil reserves and oil companies nonstop for the last 12 years.. many (less crowdy) innocent people are dying every day.. what do you thing/ is it war or terror?
and one more thing.. do you really believe its america's business to save the people from their presidents..? i do not know if you checked middle eastern newspapers but, citizens support for him is 100%..
america wants to put a puppet government over there, thats it all about..
What you say America has been doing over there I'd call terrorism, except that there are loopholes through the UN resolutions which justifies dropping a bomb. I think it's horrible that the US is using the UN to get something they want, while major countries in the UN don't want it. I heard tonight on the news that a New Jersey (my state....I'm gonna write a letter to this guy) congressman is proposing a "boycott" of French and German products because those countries aren't cooporating with what the US wants!!!!! What the hell! And unbelievablly, the news channel said Americans want this!!!!! They interviewed an Italian resturant and the owner said he got rid of all his French wine which was %40 of his entire stock. I'm seriously starting to hate what my government does when it wants something that it shouldn't have.

I brought up if the Iraqi people support their president because I was wondering if the Iraqi people would take up arms to defend their country if the US invaded. The fact that a kid said the war is against the Iraqi people was why I was wondering. I thought the purpose was to get rid of the Iraq government....and I distinguish between government and it's people.

The US should get's snout out of so-called "humanitarian" wars and let the UN and NATO worry about it. What was the President's message?...something along the lines that Saddam was a threat to peace all over the world, and that he's used weapons of mass destruction on his own people. OK, I'd say that would fall under humantarian action and not an invasion. What does the US have to gain from "saving" the Iraqi people from their president? Control of resources of that country for one.

If the US invades Iraq and creates a puppet government no one in America will care. Just like Afghanistan...we took that place over citing "humanitarian actions" for liberating the women over there and creating a less hostile environment for the people....then the government turns to Iraq. Afghanistan news is old....the American people don't care because of this tension over Iraq. After Iraq, the tension will go to North Korea, so the people will turn their heads away from what's happening in Iraq.

middle east is a longgg story my friend.. one of the biggest reason why america is that powerfull today.. what america is doing there for years is not as clean as you thing..
did you know america is getting 20% percent of all oil sales in saudi arabia? and they (first in their history) borrowed money from another country after that contract?
giving green light to saddam to enter kuweyt and suddenly deciding to protect kuweyt is all coincidence? do you think kuweyt did not pay for this favor with a good contract like that?
UN has no problem with Iraq, nobody has.. Please guys stop acting like you are saving the world..world is much safer place w/out BUSH..

You are hitting the key points that most Americans do not understand, and making me feel less alone in the attempt. Good work!

hypewaders..
when i was living in my thirld world country, like all the other nonamericans in the world, i could reach many different kind of inf. resources.. for example, althought i am a jewish (with many relatives-friends who lives in israel) i saw, i experienced the real story in israel.. unlike any jewish people in US (althought i had a more painfull family history then most of them because of my location) i am saying, and i am insisting on that '' palestanians are not militans''..there is a war over there... its again a long story..
and as a beautiful blonde with a math. degree, i was really NOT INTO politics at all.. with a difference then america, in a thirld world country,everybody knows its too late to save your country.. And i was believing -like all the other nonamericans /thats why they hate americans, today- that ,americans are aware of whats going on..those days, i was thinking that US is using the power that they had-- naturally..which was fair-not painfull to accept..
and i moved down to US... one day, after i talked with friends in tel aviv and learned israel army-with the help of US entered to a city and killed hundreds of palestanians and the same day i listened CNN and saw how the news are filtered in US media, the image of the country of freedooms is totally shakened in my head..
and starting that day, it became painfull to listen and talk w/the people who are NOT aware of anything.. People who see themselves like hollwood movie actors- really, honestly believe if there was not america, the world would be in deep shit..
no misunderstanding please,i am not angry or anti american.. i love americans..like the way i love palestanians..i am a world-citizen and honestly a big humanist...


:m:

Originally posted by pillowtalk
america is bombing iraq's oil reserves and oil companies nonstop for the last 12 years.. many (less crowdy) innocent people are dying every day.. what do you thing/ is it war or terror?

What?? Bombing oil reserves and oil companies? Can you provide some documentation for that?

i do not know if you checked middle eastern newspapers but, citizens support for him is 100%..

Yes, I guess that 100% support is why representatives from six different Iraqi dissident groups met in London last month to discuss a post-Saddam Iraq. They didn't seem too supportive of him.

one day, after i talked with friends in tel aviv and learned israel army-with the help of US entered to a city and killed hundreds of palestanians and the same day i listened CNN and saw how the news are filtered in US media, the image of the country of freedooms is totally shakened in my head..

Huh? The US has no troops in Israel. How exactly do you mean the Israeli army had US help? And when has the Israeli army needed help in bullying the Palestinians?

I will agree that most Americans probably don't get enough outside news from international services. Hell, many Americans probably don't even pay much attention to national news, much less international. However, that doesn't apply to all Americans. Cable does provide the BBC, and the Internet does allow access to links to news agencies anywhere in the world.

Huh? The US has no troops in Israel.
Coldrake- OK footsoldiers, no. Advisors, Contractors, R&D, Brass? Hundreds.
How exactly do you mean the Israeli army had US help?
$5,000,000,000.00 per year, give or take, including all needed intel all our top-shelf equipment including nuclear weapons.
And when has the Israeli army needed help in bullying the Palestinians?
With every bullet, every coverup, every one-sided raw deal Israel wanted to foist on the Palestinians.

I am shocked, Coldrake. You are usually so well-informed. Why do you have a blind spot when it comes to Israel?

Originally posted by hypewaders
Coldrake- OK footsoldiers, no. Advisors, Contractors, R&D, Brass? Hundreds.

You and I both know that US advisors don't tell the Iraqis what palestinian towns to strike.

$5,000,000,000.00 per year, give or take, including all needed intel all our top-shelf equipment including nuclear weapons.

And I wish we didn't give them a dime.

And when has the Israeli army needed help in bullying the Palestinians?
With every bullet, every coverup, every one-sided raw deal Israel wanted to foist on the Palestinians.

That really didn't answer my question, hype. You do know Israel has its own military/industrial complex now don't you?

I am shocked, Coldrake. You are usually so well-informed. Why do you have a blind spot when it comes to Israel?

Hype, I have no blind spot about Israel. I have absolutely no use for Israel, and I'm the first to argue that the Palestinians have gotten a raw deal beginning with the Balfour Agreement. I thought that Truman made a mistake in his rush to recognize Israel as a state, and I don't like the fact that the Jewish lobby seems to have such a strong grasp on Washington.

But what I was wanting was for Pillowtalk to explain his/her statements. He/she says that Americans don't get a true view of what is going on in the world, yet some of those claims I have to question. If the US was bombing oil fields in Iraq, some agencies in the world would be carrying this news, and if the US was actively involved in aiding the Israelis in Palestinian towns (which is what Pillowtalk implied) then it would be making Palestinian news (and there are Palestinian news agencies on the Internet).

i am a greek-jew (her), who was born and raised in Turkey-a muslim country.. degree is math, interest is middle east history.. reading a lot.. reading everybodies opinions, talking with muslims, middle eastern jews, european jews, christians who lives in beyrut, christians who live in europe.. listening their own stories..and thinking about them, and at the end my own opinions..after 30 years experience..
but...who knows...i may be wrong..
but the point is if i am wrong, and if you have a free media, why i never see this type of opinions anywhere?i am reading a long article about why arabs hate americans on Times magazine, and trully there is nothing in it..i know, why arabs hate americans, they are right or wrong ,but, thats not the reason of this hatred that i am reading on there..
i may be wrong about my interpretations on middle east (and i really prefer to be wrong-because its painfull this way), but i can tell you some about the country that i live for 30 years..
its the colony of america.. with a puppet government, does whatever america wants..did you know, the american jets using INCIRLIK-ADANA airbase is bombing Iraq nonstop for 12 years.. and since Turkey is in middle east region, from the tv's in Turkey, you can watch iraq channels showing the cities or areas bombing.. and on the national news, you read the information about the damage..
germany, france etc.. they are all disaggre to that war, because they know whats it is really about..
and althought 96%of the population do not want that war w/the neighbour, Turkey is in the -somebody elses war.. and interestingly, on US media, i again did not read anything about the big pressure of america on them..
on 02/11 i read on bbc news, in the UK, an opinion poll in the Times this week found that 51% of those questioned saw Tony Blair as a US-poodle.but althought this relationship, bbc news usually more fair then CNN/NY times..you can check out sometimes, you will see more fair interpretations about Israel and palestanian situation...and one question..does it make any sense, althought i am a jewish, i am talking like that?
do you want me to prove something aganist US government? you are underestimating cia..
but of course in middle east, you can watch many poor quality hand cam stuff about the falling down palestanians villages, or the tortures that israel army is making to the relatives of suiceder bombers, etc..and you hear soooo many stories from real people..
about the american support to israel- besides the yearly wage, did you know how many nukes america just gave to israel to protect himself from the nonexisting weapons of iraq?


AND SORRY FROM ALL OF YOU FOR MY BAD ENGLISH..
i really appreciate..



:)

But you're saying that the views you get from Iraqi news shows cities the US is presently bombing. Do you think that Iraqi news is more fair and open coverage than US media? The US is not the only nation with satellite coverage over Iraq. Why is no non-American media other than Iraqi news claiming the US is bombing Iraqi cities? Why did my nephew, who was stationed in Turkey patrolling the northern no-fly zone for a year, not talk about any of this in our private conversations? Do you think the US is making up the fact that Saddam has been violating the UN resolutions? If so, then the UN would have to be in on the colusion as well. The UN sanctions allow Iraq to sell oil with the stipulation that he feed his people. That was part of the deal. If the people are starving does the blame fall on the US as some seem to claim? It seems to me to be the same as it has been in North Korea - the aid we were providing to North Korea to feed its people was instead going to the NK military. maybe Saddam is making sure his Republican Guard is being fed at the expense of his people. These are just some of my questions and observations.

its a life time experience to live in a third world country...believe me everything is soo different then you used to.. you are learning not to believe our government,your country, your media.. it has some advantages thought..since the government has not got a power to control his media, w/out a uncle sam 's watching ,people can watch anything.. they can write about anything,they go to jail because of their opinions but i prefer that rather then a PLANE or CAR accident...;)
the live shoots from incirlik- the live shoots from iraq..if your country supporting another country by opening the air bases, you can WATCH what the hell is going on.. if you are living the middle east, and if you have relatives in israel and if you are frequently visiting them-you personally experience AMERICAN SUPPORT behind every military action..you just know it, if you live there..




;)

I'm sorry, but you're just not providing anything to back up your previous claims that the US has been bombing Iraqi cities for the past 12 years. Telling me you experience that by having lived in the Middle East is not providing me with any sort of proof. I have little faith that the censored Iraqi media is fairly reporting anything. And that isn't because the American media tells me so. Iraqi dissidents around Europe as well as in the US are making that claim. Hell, the Iraq media never aired the gassing of the Kurds, but yet we've seen captured Iraqi film of the Kurdish dead, so we know they filmed it. They just weren't allowed to show it. So don't tell me you get a true accessment of everything that is going on in iraq simply because you have lived in the Middle East. I live in the US, but that doesn't automatically give me first hand knowledge of what goes in Canada and Mexico without the news they report, and I have to base what I learn on the assumption that their coverage is fair and truthful.

coldrake..
i was talking about turkish media- you can watch these bombings via turkish channells because of the coverage.. and since i was a tv-reporter for 9 years ( i really do not want to give soo much info about myself ) in my country, i personally know the truth behind these shoots.. almost everyday,there are new bombings.. i could forward you some newspapers about that issue, but you can not read turkish.. what you can do is, you can simply ask any people who lives in middle east or in europe if they are aware of the these bombings.. europeans are all aware of these and thats the reason they are very angry to Turkey for a long time.. i do not know if you read at newspapers, the first time in NATO history, they decided not to protect Turkey if iraq attacts..this decision is really serious, because it may be the end of NATO...
UN warned turkish government many times about these bombings..but as i told you, Turkey has a puppet government, its an american colony..
whenever bush elected, these bombings have increased..and Russia sent a very strong warning to Turkey..they said, if turkey does not stop letting america use incirlik, turkey is accepting the full responsibility about these bombings and Russia is gonna bomb turkey..
and after we all watched Russian's presidents speech on TV- live- everybody bought gas masks and prepared to be bombed by Russia..this was about 2 years ago, i was still living there and that was a terrible panic for everybody..
in american media, i am sure you did not read anything about those days..
since you do not know much about america-middle east relation, like most of the other americans you are not believing me..i do not expect you to do so..
i am just a voice from that area, telling you guys are not as clean as you think..and i know, thats not easy to accept..

and thats all my point coldrake..
thats the biggest success of american government.. even reasonable and open minded brains like you believe in US government, because, by giving you some freedooms and repeating millions times US is a free country; you believe in it deeply..and thats a media which never shows the dirty face of the government.. you never read or saw anyting about the cruel emperyalism of your counrty.. thats why america is that powerfull..
you believe,palestanians are militans, they are killing innocent jews everday; you believe, you were saving the world from an evil (humeyni) when you were helping Iraq to hit Iran; you believe, then saddam totally became crazy suddenly and you saved Kuweyt from Saddam, and now you wanna save the world from Saddam ..and you guys are doing that just because you are soo nice people, you LOVE helping people..
your media is really doing a good job..
but,once you travel outside of the Fox-news-controlled US media,the world is in total aggreement with my thesis..
you are talking about Kurdish people- did you know when Iraq used that mass destruction weapons on them? i tell you, when he was the best friend of america..
and i am behind my words..with my OWN EXPERIENCE, and history knowledge, i am telling you that there has been a nonstop war aganist Iraqi people since1991.Since the beggining of this year alone,there have been 40 bombings on Iraqi soil by American warplanes.on January 8th, america bombed 10 different sites..you can check european media-for that information.. i am thinking some examples in american media.. read musician TOM MORELLO's opinions for example (he made an interview w/ rolling stones rolling magazine this month)..
but you will not believe anybody-anyway..
the only awy for an american to see whats really going on is travelling outside of US and watching the media over there..
GO WHEREVER YOU WANNA GO..EUROPE, MIDDLE EAST,EVEN FAR EAST..you will see all the same news.. do you really believe all the world is wrong and america is right?

go google and search IRAQ BOMBINGS..

you will find many file about dates and how many civillians are died..

easy..;):)

i could forward you some newspapers about that issue, but you can not read turkish

No, I can't.

in american media, i am sure you did not read anything about those days..

I'm not limited to the American media. The Internet provides access to a big world out there.

since you do not know much about america-middle east relation, like most of the other americans you are not believing me..i do not expect you to do so..

Now you're attempting to be patronizing. I know more about US relations in the Mideast than you seem to think.

i am just a voice from that area, telling you guys are not as clean as you think..and i know, thats not easy to accept..

I have no illusions about the cleanliness of my nation. It does what suits its interests. I served in Vietnam so I am very aware that those interests are not always noble.

thats the biggest success of american government.. even reasonable and open minded brains like you believe in US government, because, by giving you some freedooms and repeating millions times US is a free country; you believe in it deeply

Betcha I have more freedom than the average Iraqi. I can stand on the street corner and hold up a sign criticizing my president. How many Iraqis do you know can criticize Saddam openly?

you never read or saw anyting about the cruel emperyalism of your counrty..

Hate to blow your image of me but I'm a professor of US Foreign Policy. I teach American college kids about the wrongs of American imperialism.

you believe,palestanians are militans, they are killing innocent jews everday; you believe, you were saving the world from an evil

This is your problem. You want to generalize Americans. I don't believe all Palestinians are militants; I belive the majority of Palestinians just want their own autonomous government. You do more generalizing than most conservative Americans I know.

you believe, you were saving the world from an evil (humeyni) when you were helping Iraq to hit Iran;

Wrong again, but no surprise. I believe the US backed what it considered the lesser of two evils at the time. A secular madman opposed to a fundamentalist madman. It seemed like the right choice at the time, I'm sure.

you believe, then saddam totally became crazy suddenly and you saved Kuweyt from Saddam

I didn't give a damn about saving the Kuwaitis.

now you wanna save the world from Saddam ..and you guys are doing that just because you are soo nice people, you LOVE helping people..

Why would I think Americans are nice people. You don't become the world's most powerful nation by being nice.

but,once you travel outside of the Fox-news-controlled US media,the world is in total aggreement with my thesis..

You're thesis? You haven't shown me a single thing so far. All you've done is make some generalizations.

you are talking about Kurdish people- did you know when Iraq used that mass destruction weapons on them? i tell you, when he was the best friend of america..

Yes, I did know that. And guess what? I read it in the American media a long time ago. Now, are you going to try and claim America told Saddam to use them?

do you really believe all the world is wrong and america is right?

Again, a huge exaggeration. Opinion polls in the media of various countries don't show that opinion is as one-sided as you suggest. From what I've seen, there are a lot of people in the world, including the Middle East, that want Saddam out of there. I'm not promoting war; I don't see saddam as an imminent threat. I wish the US had no involvement period in the Middle East. I care nothing for Iraqis, Kuwaitis, Palestinians, or Israelis.

go google and search IRAQ BOMBINGS..

you will find many file about dates and how many civillians are died..

I did as you asked. I found a few articles that said some civilians were killed in collateral damage when US and British warplanes fired on Iraqi radar and SAM sites. I also have specifically read both French and Russian news sites; all I could find was some articles stating they were against the bombings because they weren't solving the problem of Iraq. But I have found absolutely nothing that supported your claims that the US is indiscriminately bombing civilians. I'm not saying you are lying and I'm open to criticism of the US if you will just show me some proof.

Pillow, Coldrake (if I may interject) is a bit more machiavellian than you, but I believe his perspective is no more distorted (from my perspective) than yours. Since I glimpse a middle ground, I wonder if somewhere nearby lies the truth. So I'm taking a feeble crack at it, even though I am no less biased myself.

In my estimation, Coldrake looks across the issue of Israel from the other side than you or I do, and that to me seems to be the canyon the two of you are trying to communicate across.

IMHO any mideastern issue is inextricably linked to this divide, and it keeps rearing its head no matter how people think they are discussing something "unrelated" regarding the Middle East. I may be incorrect in this observation, and I expect Coldrake will be first to find the gaps in my thinking, but here goes:

Coldrake believes that the State of Israel is part of the just, legitimate expression of Jewish life and "destiny" (for lack of a better word), and has a rightful place "as-is" and is on the right path among her neighbors.

I personally believe that just as Islam and Arab identity have been hijacked by fundamentalists with a poitical agenda (and I have no way of knowing which motivated which [politic agenda or religious fervour]) Judaism got a head start (courtesy of the Holocaust) and was channeled by modern zionists (small z) into an ugly mistake: In a nutshell it is an abomination of the metaphysical word "Israel". The political hijackers of Zionism (big Z) surprised themselves so much with their hair-raising success, that they didn't notice the Vehicle was entering a moral and political dead-end at high speed.

(still expressing my own opinion) Israel is now as oppressive and repressive a state as exists in the Middle East. It also has so many points of affinity with America (nationalism, cosmopolitanism, frontier-ness, individualism, persecution, manifest destiny, hubris, judeo-christianity) that the two have a visceral bond. They are presently, with the Likud and Busheviks in command, marching in lock-step toward something: Shared destinies- I'll come back to that.

The Arab and Islamic worlds are playing catch-up, both with Western technology (secular Israelis have especially embraced it) and Western world view (secular Israelis identify with it). Although Arabs/Muslims can connect with the sephardic perspective (with the SP's mutual familiarity and understanding with Arabs, Arab Christians, and Muslims) the sephardic/semitic perpective is being suppressed from both sides. Likewise, deep Arab and Bedouin tolerance and flexibility are being suppressed.

A culture war has been long in the making where right-wing Israelis in alliance with right-wing Americans are implementing a restructuring of the Middle East. In my opinion their vision is doomed, but I am going to attempt to cross to the other side now.

In this vision, the Middle East is about to be brought into compatibility with America/Israel/Europe. Arabs will (at first forcibly if necessary) be transitioned into the realization that this a question of the progress of civilization. They will eventually "see the light".

OK I'm not comfortable explaining this perspective (Coldrake take over please) so I'll stop there.

Pillowtalk, you and I have been far more exposed to the Arab perspective- Coldrake the Israeli.

Somewhere in between, Jews go back to living throughout the middle east as they always have. The modern State of Israel is discarded. A magnificent Jewish Temple is built in Jerusalem (with the important concession of not disturbing al-Aqsa). Al-Quds/Yerushalem is a shared Vatican-like city-state. The democratic secular state surrounding the holy city is not defined as Arab or Jewish or Christian or Druze. Everybody wins. By war and/or by negotiation, this is what I think must inevitabley happen: Neither an apartheid "Jewish" police-state in perpetuity, nor the pushing of all Jews into the sea by Arab hordes is an option.

Who did what to whom, who covered it up, and who avoided confronting the past, all will diminish in relevance as the real Issue is recognised and resolved. The reconciliation of the Crusades and the Holocaust will come when the middle ground is described, dreamed of, longed for, and agreed upon.

OK now I'm out of steam. That is my idea of the Promised Land. Next year in Jerusalem, insha'Allah.:cool:

Coldrake..
I know i sound not the way i am trying.. with this terrible english, i sound like a noneducated person..(i wanted to say kid-but kids are talking better than me)..but i am not..and i have no gain spending time lying to some people that i will never ever see in my life..and its really painfull discussing an issue with a foreigner in his own language..
I just signed to that site, and obviously did not read everything you read,soo i do not know you..i just read your opinions related to bad stuff topic,which;
-you do not think america is supporting israel,
-you do not think america is bombing iraq nonstop for 12 years,
-you do not think american media is filtered..etc..
Soo i thought you are thinking the same like the other americans i met in US. if you are not, sorry for my generalization..
I am accepting that americans are more free than Iraqi people,no doubt..but since an Iraqi people knows that, he does search for the truth in other medias.. i am not talking about you, you are on this site,discussing bad stuff with a greek-turkish jew, but,in general, americans,even the educated ones, doctors, teachers,they read NYtimes, watch CNN and thats all-you know that..
If you searched on internet,you found many sites taht gives detailed information about Iraq bombings..i did not get why it is not enough for you..briefly, i am telling you, i personnally experienced (life and work related) them, you are not believing.. you are finding many news about them via internet,thats also not enough for you..soo, travelling looks like the only way for you to believe ..you do not need to go middle east, just go outside the US, watch media,talk with people...that will help,believe me..
imperyalism..as a prof. i am sure ,you know a lot about this issue.. soo prof,lets talk about the cost of keeping thirld world countries as they are..? since you already accept the cost of being powerfull,with the strenght i got from that, i will tell you one more think that you will not believe me again.. another example from my country.. i do not know your knowledge about kurdish problem in turkey..its one of the biggest issues that reduces the strenght of government.. get ready its coming:
''america created Kurdish problem in my country in order to keep it as its colony..''
and i am shutting up for a while...its getting dangerous..
peace:cool:

hypewaders..
sorry, i did not saw you reply when i was writing.. hi...:)

OH, and Pillowtalk I was meaning to weave into that why Turks have a lot to say, because you are in the middle of the Eurojewish/Arab and western/eastern interface in so many ways. Right at the crux. Even now at the launching of America's misguided attempt to occupaty and "democratize" Iraq. I just wish the Saudis had an Ataturk, the Palestinians had a Martin Luther King, and the Jews had, well I don't know how to fix the Jews tonight, Im tired :o g'nite.

OH! there U are- but gotta go;)

goodnight hypewaders...;)

coldrake, i am watching the news.. warnings about possible terrorist attacts.. just like cold war days..i grew up in terror, we never had preparations..your country is very interesting for me..

and i am reading an article on bbc news dated 02/11..title: polls find europeans oppose iraq war..
uk:69%
spain:80%
belgium:80%
netherlands:83%
sweeden:85%
greece:90%
france:90%
germany:93%
and i know the poll in turkey :96%
and todays newspaper it says thats UK's biggest protest in their history.. on TV tonight,showing 200 thousand people carrying ''no war signs'' in Australia..who wants this war except US, tell me please..

hey.. was away for a few days and so much has happened on this site... :bugeye: real good discussion happenin here btw coldrake and pillowtalk with hype messin it all up in between :D
i'll post back in a few hours.. good stuff goin on in here... bad stuff goin on out there...

BTW, edit, in case anyone cares, inspectors have concluded the approximate range of the missiles (the ones that violate the UN resolution) is about 120 miles. I said 150, but earlier analysis wasn't exactly sure of their maximum range when this story was first reported. But still exceeding the 93 miles permitted.

Originally posted by hypewaders
Pillow, Coldrake (if I may interject) is a bit more machiavellian than you

No doubt. But hey, Machiavelli gets a bad rap based on The Prince. His Ten Discourses is actually rather democratic.



I expect Coldrake will be first to find the gaps in my thinking, but here goes:

Of course.

Coldrake believes that the State of Israel is part of the just, legitimate expression of Jewish life and "destiny" (for lack of a better word), and has a rightful place "as-is" and is on the right path among her neighbors.

Hype, c'mon. Just when I thought you were starting to understand my thought process. I thought you had actually been reading what I said in some our earlier discourses. At what point have I shown any sympathy for the Israelis? I said that the US doesn't dictate to the Israelis on which Palestinian towns to terrorize, and I firmly believe that. But I have never denied that the two are fast bedfellows. I did, however, say that I despise that fact, that I felt that Truman had been wrong to rush to recognition of the Israeli state; I believe that decision began to sour the good relations we had in the Mideast following WWII. I have no affinity for the Israeli people whatsoever. If I had been a Palestinian in 1948, odds are I would have fought the Israelis myself. However, the Palestinians and the the other neighboring Arab states are not without fault either. I have never seen any attempt to come to the aid of those Palestinian refugee camps. The trans-Jordan area was originally supposed to have been part of the Palestinian partition. Why didn't they accept those refugees into that area? Because it is better to keep those camps as breeding grounds for future terrorists. At any rate, I'm sure most Israelis and Palestinians just want to live their lives in peace, and this thing is being driven by militant forces on both sides.

I personally believe that just as Islam and Arab identity have been hijacked by fundamentalists with a poitical agenda (and I have no way of knowing which motivated which [politic agenda or religious fervour]) Judaism got a head start (courtesy of the Holocaust) and was channeled by modern zionists (small z) into an ugly mistake: In a nutshell it is an abomination of the metaphysical word "Israel". The political hijackers of Zionism (big Z) surprised themselves so much with their hair-raising success, that they didn't notice the Vehicle was entering a moral and political dead-end at high speed.

(still expressing my own opinion) Israel is now as oppressive and repressive a state as exists in the Middle East. It also has so many points of affinity with America (nationalism, cosmopolitanism, frontier-ness, individualism, persecution, manifest destiny, hubris, judeo-christianity) that the two have a visceral bond. They are presently, with the Likud and Busheviks in command, marching in lock-step toward something: Shared destinies- I'll come back to that.

Good job. I think you are pretty much dead on.

The Arab and Islamic worlds are playing catch-up, both with Western technology (secular Israelis have especially embraced it) and Western world view (secular Israelis identify with it). Although Arabs/Muslims can connect with the sephardic perspective (with the SP's mutual familiarity and understanding with Arabs, Arab Christians, and Muslims) the sephardic/semitic perpective is being suppressed from both sides. Likewise, deep Arab and Bedouin tolerance and flexibility are being suppressed.

I'm still in agreeance.

A culture war has been long in the making where right-wing Israelis in alliance with right-wing Americans are implementing a restructuring of the Middle East. In my opinion their vision is doomed, but I am going to attempt to cross to the other side now.

In this vision, the Middle East is about to be brought into compatibility with America/Israel/Europe. Arabs will (at first forcibly if necessary) be transitioned into the realization that this a question of the progress of civilization. They will eventually "see the light".

OK I'm not comfortable explaining this perspective (Coldrake take over please) so I'll stop there.

Actually, I think you did pretty good. 'Civilized democracies' that march step always make better trading partners. It's the concept of 17th century British economist Adam Smith's mercantilism.

Pillowtalk, you and I have been far more exposed to the Arab perspective- Coldrake the Israeli.

True, but, that exposure has had more of the opposite effect on me that you seem to think. I do agree that Christian America strongly identifies with the Israelis, because in their eyes the Palestine conflict boils down to a struggle between religions. To these types of Americans, 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' are interchangeable words. Ali is a terrorist. Mohammad is a Muslim. Ali and Mohammad are indistinguishable.

Somewhere in between, Jews go back to living throughout the middle east as they always have. The modern State of Israel is discarded. A magnificent Jewish Temple is built in Jerusalem (with the important concession of not disturbing al-Aqsa). Al-Quds/Yerushalem is a shared Vatican-like city-state. The democratic secular state surrounding the holy city is not defined as Arab or Jewish or Christian or Druze. Everybody wins. By war and/or by negotiation, this is what I think must inevitabley happen: Neither an apartheid "Jewish" police-state in perpetuity, nor the pushing of all Jews into the sea by Arab hordes is an option.

Who did what to whom, who covered it up, and who avoided confronting the past, all will diminish in relevance as the real Issue is recognised and resolved. The reconciliation of the Crusades and the Holocaust will come when the middle ground is described, dreamed of, longed for, and agreed upon.

OK now I'm out of steam. That is my idea of the Promised Land. Next year in Jerusalem, insha'Allah.:cool:

Religion is a hard mistress.

Originally posted by pillowtalk
Coldrake..
I know i sound not the way i am trying.. with this terrible english, i sound like a noneducated person..(i wanted to say kid-but kids are talking better than me)..but i am not..and i have no gain spending time lying to some people that i will never ever see in my life..and its really painfull discussing an issue with a foreigner in his own language..

Don't worry about. If we tried to have this discussion in Turkish, you would be the one doing all the talking.


I just signed to that site, and obviously did not read everything you read,soo i do not know you..i just read your opinions related to bad stuff topic,which;
-you do not think america is supporting israel,
-you do not think america is bombing iraq nonstop for 12 years,
-you do not think american media is filtered..etc..
Soo i thought you are thinking the same like the other americans i met in US. if you are not, sorry for my generalization..

That's all I said. Don't generalize, because then you come off as no different than those whom you criticize. And just because I disagreed with your assertions about the indiscriminate bombings (and still do, until you actually link something, as I asked) doesn't automatically mean I support Israel or think that American media isn't filtered. Although i do disagree in part with the last; there are a number of liberal media outlets in the US that criticize this administration, and also attempt to report any negative actions in US foreign policy.

I am accepting that americans are more free than Iraqi people,no doubt..but since an Iraqi people knows that, he does search for the truth in other medias.. i am not talking about you, you are on this site,discussing bad stuff with a greek-turkish jew, but,in general, americans,even the educated ones, doctors, teachers,they read NYtimes, watch CNN and thats all-you know that..

Well, I don't know, I can't speak for where the average American doctors, teachers, etc., get their international news, but then, neither can you. Although I would suspect a great many do as you assert.
If you searched on internet,you found many sites taht gives detailed information about Iraq bombings..i did not get why it is not enough for you..briefly, i am telling you, i personnally experienced (life and work related) them, you are not believing..

I searched, and no, I didn't find. And why are you having such a difficult time understanding why I won't take your word? Do you take every strangers word at face value? As I keep saying, I'm open to criticisms of my government. You keep talking about links to prove your claims. Then link them.

you are finding many news about them via internet,thats also not enough for you

Nooo...I didn't.

..soo, travelling looks like the only way for you to believe ..you do not need to go middle east, just go outside the US, watch media,talk with people...that will help,believe me..

That's one of the great things about being an American. I have both the freedom and the money to travel. The only people that have ever harassed me for being an American were Parisians. Can you believe that? If it weren't for Americans the French would be eating strudel instead of foie gras.

imperyalism..as a prof. i am sure ,you know a lot about this issue.. soo prof,lets talk about the cost of keeping thirld world countries as they are..? since you already accept the cost of being powerfull,with the strenght i got from that, i will tell you one more think that you will not believe me again.. another example from my country.. i do not know your knowledge about kurdish problem in turkey..its one of the biggest issues that reduces the strenght of government.. get ready its coming:
''america created Kurdish problem in my country in order to keep it as its colony..''

You can't see me so I will just have to tell you that I'm laughing my ass off. You can't possibly believe that. If you do, then I would suggest it is you that is getting filtered information. The oppression of the Kurds goes back to the 7th century, when they were first conquered by the Arabs in the Arabs first wave of expansion. They were controlled by the Seljik Turks of the Ottoman Empire until the end of WWI, when president Wilson attempted to gain self-determination for them. They were granted that independence until the rise of Attaturk to power, and have been fighting for independence and being persecuted as a result, all well before Turkey became a partner of the US in NATO. You are going to have to give me something more tangible than making stuff up if I'm going to take you seriously.

and i am shutting up for a while...its getting dangerous..
peace

Why? Are there terrorists in your area? Because there's nothing dangerous on this board. I may not take you serious at this point, but that doesn't mean you can't say what you want. I won't strap on some dynamite and come looking for you. ;)

30 years in middle east making you some paranoid maybe- and with this paranoia, i believe JFK files, the stupid love affair exaggeration for Clinton in order to get rid of a peacefull president (not good for pentagon-not good for american economy), or the accidential plane crash of Jr.Kenedy.. somehow, it is dangerous to talk about america-government relationship back in my country.. i graduated from the best university of the country and had a very bright history prof. after some weeks we were discussing america and kurdish problem in the class, we heard that, she is arrested..that kind of arresstments are normal over there,and making you think twice before you talk about anything..but,i understand you, you feel free making fun out of it..because they are really ridicilous..

i am not gonna talk about kurdish problem for now-its really long story-and another story,maybe we have to open a new section for that..

coldrake says;
'''I thought you had actually been reading what I said in some our earlier discourses. At what point have I shown any sympathy for the Israelis? I said that the US doesn't dictate to the Israelis on which Palestinian towns to terrorize, and I firmly believe that.''''

another middle east jew experience-after bush elected, israel became suddenlly more aggressive..thay started occupying more palestanian areas, entering homes and doing terrible stuff..when all they were happenning there were NO news on american media..and months later, palestanians started to their suicide attacts, couple israeli dyied- oh my god, your media started talking about it NONSTOP.

coldrake, read your media.. everywhere- you are calling dead palestanians as MILITANS.. 3 iseali dead, 2 palestanian militan dead.. forget about the yearly millions dollars financial help, only that ''ISRAELI'S ARE KILLING THE MILITANS'' support is enough for israel to become more aggressive..

i have to go now..love..

:m:

oops - :eek: I had posted in the wrong thread :D

I'm putting it over into the "what's you're excuse?" thread to die a noble death.


(NOT ME - the comment & thread)

Originally posted by pillowtalk
[.. somehow, it is dangerous to talk about america-government relationship back in my country.. i graduated from the best university of the country and had a very bright history prof. after some weeks we were discussing america and kurdish problem in the class, we heard that, she is arrested..that kind of arresstments are normal over there,and making you think twice before you talk about anything..

I'm sorry to hear that. I really am. Makes me appreciate my country even more.

but,i understand you, you feel free making fun out of it..because they are really ridicilous..

Nooo, I didn't make fun of the situation. I said I was laughing at your claim that the US was fomenting the Kurdish problem in Turkey.

i am not gonna talk about kurdish problem for now-its really long story-and another story,maybe we have to open a new section for that..

That's up to you.

another middle east jew experience-after bush elected, israel became suddenlly more aggressive..thay started occupying more palestanian areas, entering homes and doing terrible stuff..

And you think that new Israeli aggression had nothing to do with the militant Sharon becoming the head of state right before then?

when all they were happenning there were NO news on american media..

And you know this because you were in America during that time? No? Well, I was aware it was happening, so I guess the news was trickling through a leak in the filter somewhere.

and months later, palestanians started to their suicide attacts, couple israeli dyied- oh my god, your media started talking about it NONSTOP.

I guess the Jewish-owned news services cranked up the presses.

coldrake, read your media.. everywhere- you are calling dead palestanians as MILITANS

Yes, through this entire thread all I've done is rant about those dead militant Palestinians. There's either a serious language problem going on here or a barrier.

.. 3 iseali dead, 2 palestanian militan dead.. forget about the yearly millions dollars financial help, only that ''ISRAELI'S ARE KILLING THE MILITANS'' support is enough for israel to become more aggressive..

I'm assuming the CAPS are for emphasis.

i have to go now..love..

And to you.

coldrake..

you again underestimating the power of america's, putting puppet governments to their colonies..and giving green lights to their future actions.. the same like saddam and america's inseparation during those years..but you mentioned before, you do not care about ex-actions of america in that region..Iran-Kuweyt do not mean anything to you, soo that makes hard for you to see the pentagon's systematic improvement over there..

from newspapers:
''United States President George W. Bush expressed support for the former general's aggressive anti-terror tactics. In order to win U.S. backing for a Palestinian state, Bush urged the Palestinian people "to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror."

you are right, when bush was elected i was still in my country..and the difference between clinton and bush was soo obvious in that region.. iraqi bombings are increased, israel became more cruel, the tension is rised between america- its colonies and russia, russia threatened turkey because of the iraqi bombings..but that does not mean i could not reach american media.. because of Turkey's situation, CNN is, one of the most popular inf.resource of unaware population.. you were getting the nonamerican taste information searching from other resources maybe, but again, i want to mention, i am talking about america's most popular ones..and yes, in these popular media resources, dead palestanians are always called militans...and TIME Magazine-april/02 ..
Person of the Week: Ariel Sharon
For his influence over events in Israel, the Prime Minister is our Person of the Week..._

Honestly, it makes me sick,listening cold war-man Powell and the other old cold war comanders using the same old tactics to prepare society for the war that they created..

hypewader, today i was at a restaurant w/friends, the waitress told me she was planning to visit Turkey this summer but everybody warned her, and told Turkey was not safe to visit..i thought of my family who still lives there.. when america is asking turkey to be a side in his personnal war, americans are afraiding of spending 1 week over there.. told her this war will end before summer,because american soldiers can not put on their gas masks in the hot weather,and spring is pretty hot in that region..

i will walk tomorrow for peace- i hope it makes a difference..

love to all..



____:m:

Originally posted by pillowtalk
coldrake..

you again underestimating the power of america's, putting puppet governments to their colonies..and giving green lights to their future actions.. the same like saddam and america's inseparation during those years..but you mentioned before, you do not care about ex-actions of america in that region..Iran-Kuweyt do not mean anything to you, soo that makes hard for you to see the pentagon's systematic improvement over there..

As I said, there is either an extreme language barrier going on here or either you are interpreting what I say to fit your notions. I said I wish the US was not involved in the Mideast, that Iran, Kuwait, Iraq, and Israel were not my concern and I wish they were not my government's concern. If they want to slaughter each other, so be it.

from newspapers:
''United States President George W. Bush expressed support for the former general's aggressive anti-terror tactics.

OK. So Bush said he supported Israel's response to terrorism. Osama bin Laden expressed support for Iraq. Does that mean he is actively guiding Saddam?

In order to win U.S. backing for a Palestinian state, Bush urged the Palestinian people "to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror."

And there is a problem with that because...?

you are right, when bush was elected i was still in my country..and the difference between clinton and bush was soo obvious in that region.. iraqi bombings are increased, israel became more cruel, the tension is rised between america- its colonies and russia, russia threatened turkey because of the iraqi bombings..

Bush kept the pressure up on the Iraqis in the no-fly zones, I'll agree with that. Israel became more cruel because hardliner Sharon became head of state, plain and simple. Russia raised questions in the UN about US forces using Turkish bases to enforce the no-fly zones. No surprise. Like France, Russia has strong economic ties in Iraq. BTW, you said the US controls 20% of the oil in Saudi Arabia. Since you are so attuned to the Middle East, are you aware that Saddam gave France 2control of 23% of Iraq's oil? Might explain why France actually is anti-war.

i want to mention, i am talking about america's most popular ones..and yes, in these popular media resources, dead palestanians are always called militans...

That's just flat out not true and you know it.

and TIME Magazine-april/02 ..
Person of the Week: Ariel Sharon
For his influence over events in Israel, the Prime Minister is our Person of the Week...

I won't argue with you on that. I was shocked that Time would do that. However, I would point out, that if you go to a website that lists Nobel Peace Prize winners, you might be shocked at who wins some of those distinctions as well.

Honestly, it makes me sick,listening cold war-man Powell and the other old cold war comanders using the same old tactics to prepare society for the war that they created..

That's debatable.

hypewader, today i was at a restaurant w/friends, the waitress told me she was planning to visit Turkey this summer but everybody warned her, and told Turkey was not safe to visit..i thought of my family who still lives there.. when america is asking turkey to be a side in his personnal war, americans are afraiding of spending 1 week over there..

'Everybody' is a rather broad word. More likely she had a couple of people tell her that. I have a friend that is a professor here at the university (he teaches middle eastern history) that is on a sabbatical this semester, spending it in both Istanbul and Cairo. He didn't seem overly concerned.

i will walk tomorrow for peace- i hope it makes a difference..

I hope it makes a difference too.

I've enjoyed the dialogue, but I see no particular reason to continue with this thread. I asked that you back up some of your claims with some direct links, since you told me I could find evidence of your claims all over the web. I couldn't, so I asked you for some links. You don't seem so inclined to do so, and there is no reason to keep lobbing soft volleys across the net. But I am happy for you now that you are in America and have the right to speak out against this government. Freedom is a great thing, huh?

www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1004-06.htm
www.afsc.org/iraq/guide/bombing.shtm
www.hr-action.org/action/letters/letter05.html
www.ucc.org/ucnews/apr01/inmy2.htm
www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org/commentary/0102bushbomb.html
www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0322-LibyaHeat.html
www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19981219/35355084.html
www.menewsline.com/stories/2003/january/01_09_1.html

here are some links about Iraqi bombings..

and america was looking for a relationship between osama bin laden and saddam for a long time..and they are finding a very bad quality video of osama- i do not believe any of it.. you can find many bad quality stuff on internet too which shows how america is fighting with the terorist -falling down villages,people are running from their homes like ants,including women and kids- after sept/11. we can not be sure that they are true either..

and about the freedoom of the country..i was walking for peace in my country too, or was writing on internet.. nothing changed much..
i wish you guys would not be that sure that you are as free as you think..

it was nice to meet you too, coldrake..thank you again for this nice discussion..

peace
:m:

"Hype, c'mon. Just when I thought you were starting to understand my thought process."

Sorry - I'm slowly catching up - It takes a lot of reading to get the whole context - still working on it.

Re: your discussion w/pillowtalk
I think the strike lists have been selective, targeting military installations only- but accidents happen.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030216/80/dtcz7.html

Originally posted by pillowtalk
[/url]

I appreciate the effort, but none of those links actually proved that the US was indiscriminately bombing civilian targets. Those were the same ones I found when you first told me to type in "Iraqi bombings'. One of those links dealt with the Turks in Cyprus, one talked about an American's flashback to Lybia in 1987, and another discussed the effects on oil and mentioned how no missiles had hit any Iraqi oil reserves. 2 were religious websites saying they abhored bombing but made no mention of civilian casualties, while the Quaker website listed the amount of civilians killed over the years the fly-zones were in effect. 1 mentioned that an airstrike had extended beyond the no-fly zone since Bush came to office, but didn't mention any civilian casulaties, while 1 did say that civilians had been killed in Basra as a result of the airstrikes. I agree that any civilian deaths are always unfortunate, but what are your feelings about Saddam putting military installations so close to residential areas?

and america was looking for a relationship between osama bin laden and saddam for a long time..and they are finding a very bad quality video of osama- i do not believe any of it.. you can find many bad quality stuff on internet too which shows how america is fighting with the terorist -falling down villages,people are running from their homes like ants,including women and kids- after sept/11. we can not be sure that they are true either..

That's your choice of course to believe or disbelieve whatever you choose.

and about the freedoom of the country..i was walking for peace in my country too, or was writing on internet.. nothing changed much..

OK, but you were the one who said your professor was arrested for discussing US-Turkey political relations.

i wish you guys would not be that sure that you are as free as you think..

Oh, I've been pretty much free to do as I've pleased all my life short of the few rational laws you would expect to have to follow in a sane world. Other than those, it's been hell bent for leather.

it was nice to meet you too, coldrake..thank you again for this nice discussion..

And thanx to you as well.

peace
:m: [/B]