i take it you mean it points to a "deliberate plan"? if so, please expand


Actually, it is trivial to document the circumstances leading to the current genocide.

(1) At the turn of the century, your 'scientist' heroes cleverly noted that ethnic populations were multiplying far faster than the 'older' Caucasian races.

(2) This was noted by the European elite ruling class with alarm, and policies were rather quickly formulated to deal with the menace.

(3) Everything from the dirty deals behind closed doors with Churchill, Hitler and Stalin to Planned Parenthood and forced sterilization was not just planned, but actively used on a global scale, from blankets laced with Smallpox for Indians and wiping out their food source (Bison) to concentration camps and contrived 'wars' between ethnic groups.

(4) Long after the more primitive forms of Nazism were publicly abandoned by the power elite, the doctrine of 'overpopulation' and its sinister true meaning were retained. Don't forget a British king had to resign over supporting HItler.

(5) It is well documented that the powerful super-rich like Henry Ford et al were busy selling tanks and weapons to BOTH sides in every war, so as to speedily exterminate the maximum number of undesirable ethnic poor classes.

(6) After the complete betrayal of the West in the form of 200,000 German (unrepentant Nazis) skilled technical people being simply 'pardoned' and allowed to take over the upper management of US based international corporations, the quiet takeover of govenment institutions was ripe.

(7) Instead of dismantling the German Espionage cartel ODESSA, it was grafted en mass onto the American NATO infrastructure. The excuse was the 'need' to spy on the Russians. The horrifying result was that the 'weed' simply took over and engulfed the Western defense system. The reason for the easy success of this takeover was the striking agreement in philosophy between whites in the West and Germans in the first place. From similar racial stock, they were both a pair of greedy xenophobes.

I could go on, but what is the point?

Everybody concedes the massive amount of accumulated evidence of the 'glass ceiling', and the rampant racism and systemic xenophobia that penetrates every sphere of corporate America and the international elite.

The best way to see who is being killed is to look and see who is being killed!


Examples: US casualties Enemy casualties

WW2 : 300,000 9,000,000 (Ethnic Russians)
4,000,000 (Orientals Jap/Chin)

Korea: 50,000 1,000,000 (Koreans & Chinese)

Viet Nam: 50,000 5,000,000 (4 million civilians)

Gulf War (1) 150 20,000-50,000 (2,000 civilians)

--------------------------------------------------------
Totals less than 1/2 million 20 million ethnics, mostly civilians.



Now lets reflect a moment upon how many American 'casualties' were actually
just more ethnic casualties: Blacks and Mexicans, Indians, and other working class
kids, forced to join the army as the only way out of economic cess-pools
artificially created by the pull-out of jobs normally provided by big corporations.

The gag is simple. How do you get rid of your 'homies'? (excess blacks?)
Put them in uniform, ship them overseas to kill other ethnic groups,
then send them back in body bags.

Lets guesstimate that the actual number of White middle class American casualties
is actually less than half the official estimates, inflated by counting negroes and other working class expendables: oh, say 200,000 max.

Thats about a kill ratio of 100/1. Clearly well worth the cost,
if your goal is to keep the civilized world mostly White.

Lets now recap:
The last 100 years worth of wars, overt and covert has cost about 25 million
or more ethnic lives, not counting the millions of North American Indians who would be alive now. (and less than a quarter million whites have died supervising the killing, not counting a couple of million Germans who were directly fighting the Russians.)

Call it 30,000,000 people, over about five generations,
giving about a Billion people whose lives were cut short or
were never allowed to even be born, in their own countries.
That's one sixth of the earth's population, all ethnic.

And lo and behold, now another 25 million Blacks are dying of 'AIDS',
because the West has figured out that its alot cheaper to 'vaccinate'
unsuspecting populations than use bullets.

Please note that it really doesn't matter whether AIDS is a conspiracy between the Ku Klux Klan, German Drug companies and the Pentagon,
or just a 'lucky' biological accident favouring Western control of Africa.

As Jesus said regarding the tower of Siloam falling, (accidental) or
Pilate's slaughter of prayer worshippers (deliberate), the real point is
how we react to the emergency: will we repent and enact Christian
principles of charity, or cross over to the other side and wait around,
hoping no one notices us, or that someone else will help the half-dead victim?

Errr - don't the Jews or Armenians figure into this? You might argue your case for the former, but Ashkenazim Jews are Caucasoid also. As for the Armenians, one could hardly say they're non-white. Don't they count?

It seems to be that genocide is simply founded on hatred, period. And the inadequacy of fools.

Geoff

It seems to be that genocide is simply founded on hatred, period.
If I may tease out a bit more detail:
It is rooted in xenophobia, but adding the ego quickly gives contempt, distain,
and finally a conscience seared as with a hot iron, unable to identify with,
and have any compassion for your fellow human being.
The psychological (us/them) dichotomy is the tool enabling murder.

Please note that it really doesn't matter whether AIDS is a conspiracy between the Ku Klux Klan, German Drug companies and the Pentagon, or just a 'lucky' biological accident favouring Western control of Africa.

well this really is the crux of the matter.

asserting genocide, which typically is defined as "a deliberate and systematic action" requires the conscious action of at least one individual or group

asserting conspiracy, which implies a plurality of individuals or groups, requires at the very least, a rational assumption of identity of the alleged players along with perhaps, some provisional evidence

therefore, it does matter who the players are if a "conspiracy" theory is to be successfully advocated . likewise, introducing the possibility of an "accident" does nothing to buttress the argument for genocide

(1) At the turn of the century, your 'scientist' heroes cleverly noted that ethnic populations were multiplying far faster than the 'older' Caucasian races.
Now, I know this is the religion section, but since you are trying to prove your point, I presume, 'scientifically', then surely you could remove the emotive language. Especially when you are employing it incorrectly. i.e. nobody in the thread this was extracted from stated or implied they considered scientists to be heroes.
I imagine Mountainhare could identify which particular logical fallacy you are indulging in here. I'll simply say - stop it.
I imagine some scientists, somewhere may have identified differential growth rates. However, I find it doubtful that, as you claim, this occured at the turn of the century. At this time the population growth was overwhelmingly in the western countries, where the benefits of health systems, sewage networks, tapped water, etc had greatly reduced death rates. Such was not the case in what we now call the Third World.
So, please cite evidence for this claim. If you cannot it would appear to place your entire thesis on very weak foundations.

(2) This was noted by the European elite ruling class with alarm, and policies were rather quickly formulated to deal with the menace.
?Please cite any evidence to support this.

(3) Everything from the dirty deals behind closed doors with Churchill, Hitler and Stalin to Planned Parenthood and forced sterilization was not just planned, but actively used on a global scale, from blankets laced with Smallpox for Indians and wiping out their food source (Bison) to concentration camps and contrived 'wars' between ethnic groups.
1. Please expand on what you mean by 'dirty deals' by the Allied leaders.
2. You appear to believe, contrary to any reasoned belief, that we do not have an overpopulated planet. This is not only a dumb notion, it is an immoral position, of such seriousness that I could readily consider it an evil view.
3. Historians will be fascinated by the role played by Churchill in wiping out many Native Americans. Will you publishing this in a recognised journal anytime soon.

(4) Long after the more primitive forms of Nazism were publicly abandoned by the power elite, the doctrine of 'overpopulation' and its sinister true meaning were retained. Don't forget a British king had to resign over supporting HItler.
The King had to resign because he wished to marry a divorced woman. His nazi sympathies were unrelated. Even if this was true, in what possible way does it support your thesis?

(5) It is well documented that the powerful super-rich like Henry Ford et al were busy selling tanks and weapons to BOTH sides in every war, so as to speedily exterminate the maximum number of undesirable ethnic poor classes.
Since it is well documented you wont mind citing some sources then.


(6) After the complete betrayal of the West in the form of 200,000 German (unrepentant Nazis) skilled technical people being simply 'pardoned' and allowed to take over the upper management of US based international corporations, the quiet takeover of govenment institutions was ripe.
I am sympathetic to the difficulties you have working in a foreign language, but here you are talking nonsense as a consequence of your lack of skill in English. You are saying the West was betrayed. By whom?
And the ripe takeover? Are you sure it wasn't rife?

So, here your idea is that, having won the war, the leaders of the West rolled over and allowed 200,000 ex-nazis to take over the running of their countries. And this supports your thesis exactly how?

(7) Instead of dismantling the German Espionage cartel ODESSA, it was grafted en mass onto the American NATO infrastructure. The excuse was the 'need' to spy on the Russians. The horrifying result was that the 'weed' simply took over and engulfed the Western defense system. The reason for the easy success of this takeover was the striking agreement in philosophy between whites in the West and Germans in the first place. From similar racial stock, they were both a pair of greedy xenophobes.

I could go on, but what is the point?
Indeed. Students of history take note of what happens when the educational system fails an individual.


(7) Everybody concedes the massive amount of accumulated evidence of the 'glass ceiling', and the rampant racism and systemic xenophobia that penetrates every sphere of corporate America and the international elite.You need to change your vocabulary. You clearly have totally misunderstood the glass ceiling concept. This concept involves internally imposed limites on achievements, not externally imposed limits.

The rest of your post is such paranoid nonsense as to be undeserving of comment. It sickens me when I realise the depths of stupidity some of my fellow humans are capable of.

Einstuck ,

Most of your oriental victims in ww2 were killed by the japs - not the americans ........

"another 25 millions blacks are dying of AIDS" - do you really believe that doctors are "vaccinating" with something causing AIDS infection on unsuspecting people "instead of using bullets "

I am a MD in Europe - I can assure you that NO such thing has EVER happened - at least NOT in Europe .........

Who ever told you such horrible things !!!! ???????

Einstuck,

The 9 million caucasian russians in ww2 and 6 million jews - were however killed by the caucasian Nazi´s -
and yes , the Nazi´s did want a genocide !!

Paraclete: Even Jews admit that the number of Jews gassed by the Nazis was in the low six digits:

Jews killed at Auschwitz................Source..................

9,000,000.............Fr Documentary "Night & Fog" shown to millions
8,000,000.............French War Crime Research Office Doc. 31, 1945
7,000,000.............Later cited by French War Crime Office
6,000,000............."Auschwitz Doctor" by Miklos Nyiszli, later exposed as fraud
5,000,000.............Le Monde Apr 20/78, (& Die Welt Jan 23 /95!)
4,500,000.............2nd witness at Hoess trial, 1945
4,000,000.............Soviet evidence @ Nuremburg, cited NY Times Apr 18/45
3,500,000.............Three Years in an Aus.Gas Chamber by F. Muller /80
3,000,000.............Hoess' Forced confession - Heritage (Jewish paper, Calif. Jun 7/93)
2,500,000.............Eichmann-witness Rudolf Vrba Jul 16/81 Israeli War Crimes Trial
2,000,000.............Jewish historians: Poliakov /51 Wellers /73, Dawidowicz /75
1,600,000.............History of the Holocaust (rev./89) Yehuda Bauer
1,500,000.............Pres.Lech Walesa /95 from historians at Auschwitz museum.
1,471,595.............Wellers /83 revised count, of which only 1,352,980 were Jews.
1,433,000.............Le Monde Sep 1/89
1,250,000.............historian Raul Hilberg/85 of which about 1,000,000 were Jews.
1,100,000-1,500,000 Yisrael Gutman M. Berenbaum /84, Piper curator Auschwitz Mus.
also Walter Reich director of US Holocaust Museum in Washington Post Sep 8/98
1,000,000.............J.C. Pressac/89 Auschwitz: Tech. and Op.of Gas Chambers
900,000................"Aufbau" NY Jewish paper Aug 3/90 (11)
800,000-900,000....G. Reitlinger /53 "The Final Solution"
775,000-800,000....J.C. Pressac/93 (revised figures) about 630,000 were Jews.
630,000-710,000....J.C. Pressac/94 (German Ed.)
73,137..................New York Times based on German concentration camp records.
...........................of this, 38,031 were Jews. Deaths ALL causes /35-45: 403,713


These are all official public records and Jewish historians,
not the guesstimates of Holocaust Revisionists.

So it is probably safe to say about 40,000 Jews died at Aushwitz,
most from the appalling conditions, not from being gassed.
This is not to in any way minimize or deny the atrocious crime of genocide,
nor belittle the suffering inflicted upon innocent people by military dictators.

In case anyone tries to accuse me of being a revisionist,
here are the Allied statistics for total dead or missing in action:

(Conclusions of the Anglo-American committee for studying the Nazi
genocide inflicted on the Jews of Europe, with exact breakdown,
country by country.)

Numbers of missing Jews (pre-war minus post-war):

Germany - 195,000
Austria - 53,000
Czechoslovakia - 255,000
Denmark - 1,500
France - 140,000
Belgium - 57,000
Luxemburg - 3,000
Norway - 1,000
Holland - 120,000
Italy - 20,000
Jugoslavia - 64,000
Greece - 64,000
Bulgaria - 5,000
Rumania - 530,000
Hungary - 200,000
Poland - 3,271,000
USSR - 1,050,000

Less dispersed refugees (308,000)

Total number of Jews that were exterminated = 5,721,500
-------------------------------------------------------
Some estimates are lower, and some are higher, but these are the
magnitudes in question. Recent evidence shows that the number of
ex-USSR victims was actually underestimated.


The 9,000,000 'Caucasian' Russians of course were mostly East European Slavs, and mixed Mongol stock, often recruited from the outlying Bolshevic satellite countries, where if you read some of the atrocious reports of the war, you will find that many were sent without even guns, and were shot in the back if they refused to fight or deserted.

Ashkenazim Jews are Caucasoid also...
They may be classed that way by professors in ivory towers,
but even the Sephardim considered the Ashkenasim inferior racial stock,
and Arther Koestler of course wrote a famous book, "The Thirteenth Tribe",
in which he claimed that the Ashkenazim (Eastern/Russian/Slavic Jews)
were not Jews at all but descended from the Khazars and adopted Judaism.
These racial theories were in part behind the cooperation of some Western Jews with Hitler,
whom Hitler allowed to buy their escape, while the 'inferior'
Polish and Eastern-European Ashkenasim were rounded up and exterminated.
Yes, that's right: Some wealthy Western Jews sold their brothers into Nazi bondage.
Sound familiar? Genesis: Joseph and the Technicolor Gas Chamber.

Later, the Ashkenazim returned Koestler's favour with a book of their own:
"Non-Jewish origins of the Sephardim" So being fair, it is now doubtful
that *any* Jews are of Jewish origin, if we believe their arguments.

By the way, here is a thread where you will find a detailed debate about
the truth and accuracy of the 'Holocaust':

Holocaust Debate (http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5752)

I imagine some scientists, somewhere may have identified differential growth rates. However, I find it doubtful that, as you claim, this occured at the turn of the century. ...
So, please cite evidence for this claim. If you cannot it would appear to place your entire thesis on very weak foundations.

(2) This was noted by the European elite ruling class with alarm, and policies were rather quickly formulated to deal with the menace.

Please cite any evidence to support this.


That's right, oh well-read one: over a hundred years ago 'overpopulation' was popularized as a doctrine among the Ruling Class particularly in England.
By the way, I've probably read more books than you've seen strolling through a reference library. But there is no excuse for not having heard of Malthus.


The Theory of Overpopulation of Malthus

In the twenty-two years that had intervened between the appearance of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" and the "Essay on the Principle of Population" (London, 1798) of the Rev. Thomas Malthus (1766-1834), the French Revolution had caused the downfall of the old social system, without improving the condition of the French people; a succession of bad harvests had impoverished the agricultural districts of England, while her credit had become so impaired by the recent wars as to render very difficult the importation of supplies from abroad. On the other hand, the rapid development of the textile and other industries through the recent mechanical inventions had called new towns into existence, and greatly stimulated the increase of population; the system of public allowances of money to all pauper children encouraged improvident marriages among the poorer classes. Although there had been a considerable increase in the national wealth as a whole, the working classes had received none of the benefit. Increased production seemed to mean a disproportionate increase in population, and a decrease in the subsistence of the poor. The obvious objection, that this condition was attributable to bad distribution rather than to insufficient production, had indeed come to the attention of Malthus. In some degree his book was an answer to that very objection. William Godwin, a disciple of the French revolutionary philosophers, chiefly in his work "Political Justice", had been defending the theory that all the evils of society arose from defective social institutions, and that there was more than enough wealth for all, if it were only distributed equitably. Malthus replied to this position with his "Essay on the Principle of Population". His thesis was that population constantly tends to outrun subsistence, but that it is held in check by vice---abortion, infanticide, prostitution, and by misery in the form of war, plague, famine, and unnecessary disease. If all persons were provided with sufficient sustenance, and these checks removed, the relief would be only temporary; for the increase of marriages and births would soon produce a population far in excess of the food supply.

The first edition of Malthus's work had, therefore, a definite polemical purpose, the refutation of a communistic scheme of society. Its arguments were general and popular rather than systematic or scientific. They were based upon facts easily observed, and upon what the average man would expect to happen if vice and misery ceased to operate as checks to population. As a popular refutation of the theories of Godwin, the book was a success, but its author soon began a deeper inquiry into the facts from which he had drawn his conclusions. The result of his labours was the appearance in 1803 of a second edition of the "Essay", which differed so much in size and content from the first as to constitute, in the words of Malthus himself, "a new work". In the first chapter of the new edition he declared that "the constant tendency of all animated life to increase beyond the nourishment prepared for it" (p. 2) had not hitherto received sufficient attention. Before attempting to prove the existence of this tendency, he inquired what would be "the natural increase of population if left to exert itself in perfect freedom...under the most favourable circumstances of human industry" (p. 4). On the basis of the history of North America during the century and a half preceding 1800, and from the opinions of some economists, he concluded that "population when unchecked goes on doubling itself every 25 years, or increases in a geometrical ratio" (p. 6). A brief examination of the possibilities of food increase convinced him that this could never be "faster than in an arithmetical ratio" (p. 10). Applying these conclusions to England with its 11,000,000 inhabitants in 1800, he found that the natural result at the end of the nineteenth century would be a population of 176,000,000, and subsistence for only 55,000,000 (ibid.).

The article above goes on to point out exactly what I said, that actually Malthus was a creep, and there is no danger of 'overpopulation'.
It is a myth used to control the comfortable middle class and allow continent-raping wars overseas while Whites huddle at home reassured that big bad Black man and the Chinese won't over-run us because we are busy sending our own 'niggas' to kill them:

The practical question for any people is whether these non-scarcity checks are likely to keep population within the limits of that people's productive resources. So far as the nations of the Western world are concerned, this question may be answered in the affirmative.

The use of preventive checks, such as postponement of marriage, abortion, and artificial sterility have become so common that the birth-rate has almost everywhere decreased within the last half-century, and there is no indication of a reaction in the near future. During the same period the rate of food production has considerably increased. Moreover, the decline in the birth-rate has been most pronounced among those classes whose subsistence is most ample, thus suggesting the probability that it will become equally prevalent among the poorer classes as soon as their plane of living is raised. The contingency that men may some day become so careless of the higher standards of comfort as to give up the present methods of restriction is too remote to justify anxiety on the part of this generation.

Read the whole article here:

Malthus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12276a.htm)

Interestingly, the true cause of poverty is not 'overpopulation' but Capitalist greed, and its something that the most unlikely bedfellows (Christians and Communists!) can agree upon:

Overpopulation Mythology (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secE6.html)


Then apply for a refund for your own 'education' as well.

5) It is well documented that the powerful super-rich like Henry Ford et al were busy selling tanks and weapons to BOTH sides in every war, so as to speedily exterminate the maximum number of undesirable ethnic poor classes. ”

Since it is well documented you wont mind citing some sources then.

Perhaps an excuse could be made for your lack of knowledge of the history of ideas, especially famous ones like 'overpopulation'. But the idea that you are unaware that Ford Sr. owned his own NEWSPAPER in which he published his racial theories all across the USA while he sold tanks to the Germans in the middle of the war actually floors me. I am utterly speechless.

All I can say is "google: Dearborn Independant"

Oh God. I have so underestimated you.
I thought you were a teacher, but clearly you have the education of a professor.

Just one more thing:
“ Originally Posted by Einstuck
(7) Everybody concedes the massive amount of accumulated evidence of the 'glass ceiling', and the rampant racism and systemic xenophobia that penetrates every sphere of corporate America and the international elite. ”

You need to change your vocabulary. You clearly have totally misunderstood the glass ceiling concept. This concept involves internally imposed limites on achievements, not externally imposed limits.
Perhaps that is what men have been telling women for the last 40 years.
But ask a feminist what 'glass ceiling' means. It is pointless after this series
of stunning holes in your education to assume you know anything about politics in the West over the last 60 years, such as when women got the vote.

By the way, I've probably read more books than you've seen strolling through a reference library.
I also find it barely credible that you have read more books than I have. I take it then that you read three books a week and have been doing so for the last fifty years.Anyway, as I have pointed out more than once, reading and understanding are two completely different things.

As for the rest of your post I wish to offer you an apology. I did not realise I was dealing with a nutter. Your perception of reality is seriously skewed. I was happy to debate with you on evolution when it seemed you were a 'normal' creationist. There was some possibility of swaying your opinion. Now that I realise you are a delusional, revisionist, conspiracy theorist, with strong paranoia, I think I shall leave you to wallow in your own ignorance.

Well Einstuck - some 5,721,500 jews exterminated in ww2 (and it might be more since you state, that the number from ex-USSR is underestimated ) -
it sounds pretty close to Paraclete´s 6 millions .........

Well Einstuck - some 5,721,500 jews exterminated in ww2 (and it might be more since you state, that the number from ex-USSR is underestimated ) -
it sounds pretty close to Paraclete´s 6 millions .........

Yes. Since the numbers are very close, and I deny being a 'revisionist',
and I have assented to the basic facts of the Holocaust,
It would be ridiculous and gross to call me a 'holocaust denier' or revisionist.

Now observe the propaganda engine in full chug:
I was happy to debate with you on evolution when it seemed you were a 'normal' creationist. There was some possibility of swaying your opinion.
...implying that not only am I a Creationist, but a fanatical unreasonable one.
A careful examination of all my posts shows:

(1) I have consistently denied being a Creationist.

(2) I have denied supporting any Creationist doctrines.

(3) I have failed to support or argue FOR any Creationist doctrines.

(4) I have provided a long list of Creationist doctrines that I don't support.

(5) I have made fun of Creationist doctrines as much as Evolutionist dogma.

Ophelia, you are such an a--hole sometimes, but I forgive you.


Now that I realise you are a delusional, revisionist, conspiracy theorist, with strong paranoia,...

Again, the evidence in my posts directly contradicts his claim.
Besides, you fool, I am actually a racist Jew who is personally extremely xenophobic toward 'Crouts,' but I am intelligent enough to know it is a character flaw, and I keep it under wraps.

Could anyone get it more wrong than this assclown?

ooh! ooh! Teacher, over here! ooh!
I have an idea: try reading my posts first, before you respond!

I wish to offer you an apology.
Apology accepted.

Einstuck ,

You say you are jewish , may I ask you a question , that has nothing to do with all this genocide thing (none of my friends or anyone I am acquainted with are jewish) -

How holy is is the gold Menorah of Herod`s to you and other jews ? - it dissapeared from Jerusalem after Titus sacked the city around 70 C.E - one of my catholic friends , who has acces to the vatican archives , claims he knows where it is now ......

I am just curious .....

I have myself researched the treasures of Jerusalem for many years myself, just for fun ....

I have consistently failed

I thought so too.

Paraclete ,

I am not jewish either, but I believe they think of that menorah like the catholics would
think of the grail or the true cross of christ - very,very holy ....

If the vatican has hid the whereabouts of the gold menorah of Herod, then it might become a pretty inflamed case ........
It might not be a pretty sight .......

Do you know where it is , Paraclete ?
Just asking ........

How holy is is the gold Menorah of Herod`s to you and other jews ?

There appears to be two or three misunderstandings loaded into your question:

(1) 'Holy' is a 'yes or no' status granted or recognized by God alone. Based upon the Hebrew trilateral root for 'separate' or set aside/isolated, it implies purity, cleanliness, and protection from corruption. An object cannot be 'holy' to one party and 'not holy' to some other party. And ultimately, if you believe in an objective reality, as Christians and Jews should, the classification of 'holy' is finally determined by the judgement of God alone.

(2) The Menorah taken as loot by the Romans and paraded about was of course fake. You can tell this by the absurd but accurate picture of it carved into the monument celebrating its capture. There, you'll see that not only does the 'Menorah' captured by the Romans and carved into stone for posterity not resemble any object described in the Torah or Tanakh, but it is covered with Idolatry (Greek/Phonecian Zodiac?) symbols all about its base. It is an object captured by David or one of the other kings in the many wars and skirmishes with other surrounding nations. The real Menorah was successfully hidden from the Romans.

(3) The Fake Menorah is probably still in Rome somewhere, perhaps now in the Vatican vaults, but since it is a relic of a foreign cult, it has no 'holy' status or value, other than the gold (or brass) from which it is made.

The topic of 'holy' is an interesting one, and we might start a thread about that sometime.

How do you know it was fake - there were 2 menorahs - the gold menorah of Solomon described in the Torah with 49 lamps (lights), and then the substitute gold menorah of Herod with only 7 lights (because the first menorah was lost when Jerusalem was sacked before the romans did it again in 70 C.E.)

Paraclete: Even Jews admit that the number of Jews gassed by the Nazis was in the low six digits:


Einstuck, are you some kind of freaking Holocaust denier?

No truck with you, then.

Geoff

Einstuck,
Lord Insane is correct - it is about the menorah of Herod NOT the menorah of Solomon (that one is in Baghdad now , hidden in some museum there )

In 1996 the minister of religous affairs in Israel , Shimon Shetreet , asked the vatican to find the menorah of Herod .....

I think the best link for that story is here, read it carefully if you have the time , and sorry for diverting your thread for genocide - I was just curious ....

http://www.biblesearchers.com/temples/jeremiah6.shtml

this link ends with the menorah sinking to the bottom of the sea - but for 11 years
I have known ,this was not true - I have followed it´s trace further on ....

(1) At the turn of the century, your 'scientist' heroes cleverly noted that ethnic populations were multiplying far faster than the 'older' Caucasian races.
Which century? 1800? 1900? Because statistics on population weren't even available then.

(2) This was noted by the European elite ruling class with alarm, and policies were rather quickly formulated to deal with the menace.
What policies?

(3) Everything from the dirty deals behind closed doors with Churchill, Hitler and Stalin to Planned Parenthood and forced sterilization was not just planned, but actively used on a global scale, from blankets laced with Smallpox for Indians and wiping out their food source (Bison) to concentration camps and contrived 'wars' between ethnic groups.
In one sentence you go from abortion to killing of bison. If there's a link between these, you haven't illustrated it. Hitler and Stalin had their own ambitions, different from the early American settlers.

(4) Long after the more primitive forms of Nazism were publicly abandoned by the power elite, the doctrine of 'overpopulation' and its sinister true meaning were retained. Don't forget a British king had to resign over supporting HItler.
Few people believed in overpopulation until the 1960's, and then it was hippies.

(5) It is well documented that the powerful super-rich like Henry Ford et al were busy selling tanks and weapons to BOTH sides in every war, so as to speedily exterminate the maximum number of undesirable ethnic poor classes.
OK, now we're back on Hitler. It's no secret Henry Ford hated Jews, but he had to know that both Americans and his beloved blond arians would die in that war.

(6) After the complete betrayal of the West in the form of 200,000 German (unrepentant Nazis) skilled technical people being simply 'pardoned' and allowed to take over the upper management of US based international corporations, the quiet takeover of govenment institutions was ripe.
You can't just imprison 200,000 people for the rest of their lives. In most wars, the average person and footsoldier is allowed to go back to their jobs. Germany needed to rebuild.

And lo and behold, now another 25 million Blacks are dying of 'AIDS',
because the West has figured out that its alot cheaper to 'vaccinate'
unsuspecting populations than use bullets.
There is no AIDS vaccine. Vaccines have saved perhaps millions of lives in Africa, wiping out smallpox for one thing, polio for another.

You are thinking too hard, there is no worldwide conspiracy dating from the 1900's to kill ethnic groups. If there was, it has not succeeded at all.

Einstuck, are you some kind of freaking Holocaust denier?
No truck with you, then.
Geoff

Dear Geoff: If you would just scroll a mere 6 posts prior to yours,
you would see irrefutable evidence that I DONT deny the Holocaust.

Please at least read my posts before starting false rumours.
It looks so tacky.

DDT is what nearly wiped out malaria, not vaccines.
I won't get into whether or not bad vaccines contributed to polio.
Disease in the West was not wiped out by vaccines however.
The cases began to decrease before vaccines could have had an impact.

The main cause commonly accepted as to disease control and mortality
is clean water, sewers, and a modern understanding of hygene and effective sterilization techniques (not birth control, the disinfection of hands, instruments and operating rooms).

Einstuck,

Good essay: A very good proof point for evolution. Survival of the fittest.

the real point is
how we react to the emergency: There is no emergency – this has been how mankind has evolved. I.e. this is normal. It isn’t good but that’s how it’s been for millennia. But we shouldn’t expect anything else from an undirected and largely random process. Another good proof point for the non existence of omni-benevolent deities.

will we repent and enact Christian principles of charity,Clearly that doesn’t work. Charity merely perpetuates a state of dependence, but it is a powerful weapon used by Christianity to recruit more victims to its fold. But remember Christianity once ruled the world and then of course things were far worse, life was short and harsh – that was known as the dark ages. Fortunately we’ve moved on.

or cross over to the other side and wait around, hoping no one notices us, or that someone else will help the half-dead victim? Nope - the solution is a mechanism that will ensure an equitable distribution of wealth and power – we simply haven’t developed the technology yet to make that happen. But we are trying and at least we have democracy in many countries which is far from perfect but a move in the right direction. Now that the tyranny of Christian repression is way behind us we at least have a hope. However, the other great darkness of the world, Islam, may yet gain nuclear weapons and then all bets are off.

Dear Geoff: If you would just scroll a mere 6 posts prior to yours,
you would see irrefutable evidence that I DONT deny the Holocaust.

Please at least read my posts before starting false rumours.
It looks so tacky.

Yeah. Sure does. And I must be so wrong about you! Why, you aren't a Holocaust denier. Anyone can see that. Especially the part where you try to break it down into a "mere" six digits.

That does indeed look kind of tacky. Like where you say you don't deny the Holocaust, but then you type it with quotes around it, like this: 'Holocaust'.

In the same vein, would I be right or wrong if I described you, verbatim, as a 'Holocaust denier'?

Look, if you're going to cut-and-paste from "**********", at least cut off the nasty bits. It looks so...tacky...when you forget.

Geoff

Don't be such a clown.

If I really was a Nazi, I wouldn't pussyfoot around denying the Holocaust. What a gay (physics nerd type) thing to do.
Any real Nazi worth a s**t and with even one testicle (like Unohoo)
wouldn't deny the Holocaust: they'd brag about it, and maybe inflate the numbers just a smidge.

Besides, I haven't the time to run around joining the Western Guard or the Brownshirts. I'm too busy with my own Jewish conspiracy to take over my neighbour's Enron shares, oh yeah, and I have an important meeting later with Bush over at Camp David (which we own) to do a little nip and foreskin tuck. He seems to be hanging embarrassingly low in the Masonic Sauna,
and the other Jews are beginning to wonder if he's really one of us.

Now if you'd accused me of hanging out in bars, hoping to latch onto a material girl shiksa,you might have had a case: I feel a strange psychological urge right now to spank some German wench until she shouts her 'safeword',
"VunderJuden! Da Da"

Einstuck:

Any real Nazi worth a s**t and with even one testicle (like Unohoo)
wouldn't deny the Holocaust: they'd brag about it, and maybe inflate the numbers just a smidge.

'No True Scotsman' logic fallacy. It is quite possible to be a 'real' Nazi, while not bragging about the Holocaust.

Then again, is it any surprise that an idiot such as yourself would not only commit yet another logic fallacy, but also not have a clue about the Nazis.

By the way, I've probably read more books than you've seen strolling through a reference library.
reading a lot of books is one thing, but learning from them is another.
you quite clearly have'nt.

Don't be such a clown.

If I really was a Nazi, I wouldn't pussyfoot around denying the Holocaust. What a gay (physics nerd type) thing to do.
Any real Nazi worth a s**t and with even one testicle (like Unohoo)
wouldn't deny the Holocaust: they'd brag about it, and maybe inflate the numbers just a smidge.


Errr, no, they'd understate the numbers or pretend it didn't happen.

Now who's doing that...Einstuck?

But at least you have a sense of humour, though a skewed one. Don't feel too bad. Hitler couldn't paint, either.

:m:

Geoff

Don't be such a clown.

What a gay (physics nerd type) thing to do.

Now if you'd accused me of hanging out in bars, hoping to latch onto a material girl shiksa,you might have had a case: I feel a strange psychological urge right now to spank some German wench until she shouts her 'safeword',
"VunderJuden! Da Da"

People who pick on gays , often have homosexuel tendencies ....

You even feel, that you have to claim to us, that you are straight in the last
sentence .......Why ?

I feel a strange psychological urge right now to spank some German wench until she shouts her 'safeword',
"VunderJuden! Da Da"

A gay sadistic nazi jew, who do not think , that the menorah of Herod is holy :bugeye: ??????????

Am I to believe this ?
Please say it is not true !!!
How long have you been jewish , Einstuck ?

As a Jew myself, I have to stick up for Einstuck here;
you all seem to have accepted what the media has
fed you regarding historical "facts" and of the numbers
regarding the holocaust, without doing any fact-finding
for yourself... this amounts to faith doncha-know~

Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was in Germany's interest to keep them alive.
Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted have been quietly dropped in recent years.

At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than 20 years ago.
Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the extermination story, believes this figure. Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the familiar four million figure is a deliberate myth. In July 1990 the Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps one million people (both Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither institution would say how many of these people were killed and how many died as a result of disease.

It is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.

But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document No. 128, in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385

These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz extermination story.

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps. That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high death rate there. Arthur Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif., 1997), p. 124

Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish, acknowledges in his 1989 book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were executed. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in History (Pantheon, 1989), p. 365.

Perhaps the best known Auschwitz inmate was Anne Frank, who is known around the world for her famous diary. But few people know that thousands of Jews, including Anne and her father, Otto Frank, "survived" Auschwitz.

The 15-year-old girl and her father were deported from the Netherlands to Auschwitz in September 1944. Several weeks later, in the face of the advancing Soviet army, Anne was evacuated along with many other Jews to the Bergen-Belsen camp, where she died of typhus in March 1945.

Her father came down with typhus in Auschwitz and was sent to the camp hospital to recover. He was one of thousands of sick and feeble Jews who were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945, shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets. He died in Switzerland in 1980.

If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they would not have survived Auschwitz. Their fate, tragic though it was, cannot be reconciled with the extermination story.

Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations.
Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT "green series," Vol. 8, p. 606

The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec. 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered:

"The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible."

Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfuhrer SS [Heinrich Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced." Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834

There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to exterminate the Jews, or that he knew of any extermination program. Instead, the record shows that the German leader wanted the Jews to leave Europe, by emigration if possible and by deportation if necessary.

A document found after the war in the files of the Reich Ministry of Justice records his thinking on the Jews. In the spring of 1942, State Secretary Schlegelberger noted in a memorandum that Hitler's Chief of Chancellery, Dr. Hans Lammers, had informed him: "The Führer has repeatedly declared to him [Lammers] that he wants to see the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over." Nuremberg document PS-4025. D. Irving, Göring: A Biography (New York: 1989), p. 349.

And on July 24, 1942, Hitler emphasized his determination to remove all Jews from Europe after the war: "The Jews are interested in Europe for economic reasons, but Europe must reject them, if only out of self-interest, because the Jews are racially tougher. After this war is over, I will rigorously hold to the view ... that the Jews will have to leave and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state." H. Picker, Hitlers Tischgesprche im Führerhaupt quartier (Stuttgart: 1976), p. 456.

Indeed; it appears that rather than viewing Jews as inferior stock,
that Jews were considered racially tougher.

Thats ok; we won the war; the physical war,
and the war for the minds and souls.
ya'lls minds are certainly filled with "party doctrine",
and one more thing; you can cease and desist with
throwing the word nazi about, it only makes it apparent
that you don't know wtf you're talking about.

and a note for the anti-semites on here:

You're in occupied territory.
:D

as a matter of fact,
isn't it a jailable offence
for those of you in Europe
to entertain the thought
that history might not be
exactly as you've been taught?

mmmm glad I live in the good ole u.s. of a.
where I won't be jailed for
"inciting racial hatred"
(against my own people even)
the pendultimate logical fallacy.


(I do have a bone to pick with Einstuck though):
Ashkenazi have a higher IQ than Shephardim,
and have a predominate place in Israeli Science
and education, where did you hear that we
were considered to be a "lesser breed" than Shephardim?
I'd be interested in cites if you have them.

Geoff:

Hitler couldn't paint, either.

Actually, Hitler COULD paint, and quite a few of his paintings looked pretty good, in my humble opinion. But then again, I'm not an 'art critique'.

(I do have a bone to pick with Einstuck though):
Ashkenazi have a higher IQ than Shephardim,
and have a predominate place in Israeli Science

Well, that's not the fault of us Sephardim.
The fact is, Ashkenazi midwives give them extra breastmilk.
And they're hotter too. But I'm not bitter...

Can you send me a few scientific photos on the difference in breast size
and shape between Ashkenazi and Sephardim please?
I know with your higher IQ your sources will be more exhaustive than mine.