MALYSIA urged Australia to withdraw a declaration that it reserved the right to launch pre-emptive anti-terror strikes in other countries, saying it was talking as though it was a "big power" and that the stance threatened state sovereignty.

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Howard is playing with fire. I just hope that majority of Australian citizens do not share his sentiments.

Australia... one of the saner countries on the planet that still has balls.

The Aussies did well for many years walking placidly amongst the noise & haste but getting embroiled in too many issues that you shouldn't. Aussies are an increasingly nationalistic lot. This is not a bad characteristic but a tricky one given the circumstances & situation this country is in. Howard needs to rethink this attitude soon.This is not tall poppy syndrome - Australia is allying against the nations in its own region to win the friendship of super-powers 11 time-zones away. Economic strength has substituted more important issues....AKA selling yourself.

I believe we underestimated what we have allowed our government to initiate.
…The “you are either with me or against me” In the absents or intelligent diplomacy, is going to backfire us for good.

What right do we have (without end up ridiculous) to criticize any other country claiming to be a terrorist victim to take law on their own hands??

Super power is an imaginary thing! Having your house full of weapons, and applied bribery to the local newspaper and milk-boy is not a superpower in my book,……when I have to depend on heating oil from the neighbors that made fun of me and attend to my birthday parties!!

I'd like to make it clear at the outset that I do not in any way agree with howard's "pre-emptive strike" ideas. However, I'm not going to let this pass...

Originally posted by firdroirich
The Aussies did well for many years walking placidly amongst the noise & haste but getting embroiled in too many issues that you shouldn't.

So we should duck our heads and keep our noses clean like good little children? Ignore everything going on in the world so as not to draw attention to ourselves? Don't get involved and we won't get hurt? You're sounding like the type of person who stays safe inside when someone's getting mugged on the street.

Aussies are an increasingly nationalistic lot. This is not a bad characteristic but a tricky one given the circumstances & situation this country is in.

"Increasingly" nationalistic? We always have been. The Boer war, WW1 and 2, Korea, Vietnam, Borneo, East Timor, The Gulf... We've been active in world affairs since we got here. The fact that some contributions have been small does in no way negate the willingness to involve ourselves, nor the message sent to the rest of the world regarding our position.

Australia is allying against the nations in its own region to win the friendship of super-powers 11 time-zones away.

We already had that "friendship", Since around the middle of WW2, with Curtin's speech stating that "Without inhibitions of any kind, I make it quite clear that, from now on, Australia looks to America....". Again, this is nothing new.

Mahathir has recently stated we should "decide" whether we're an asian country or not. This would seem to indicate a choice being forced upon us which we never invited. We are not "allying against the nations in our own region" - they are suggesting that we are doing so.

Economic strength has substituted more important issues....AKA selling yourself.

Ah I see... so instead, we should kowtow to Mahathir and his like and sell ourselves to them instead? If we're going to "sell ourselves" to anyone, I'm certainly glad it wasn't because we were threatened into doing so. I'm glad that at least Howard has had the balls to ignore the Mahathir crowd's "us or them" attitude, even if, as I said, I don't necessarily agree with his pre-emptive strike idea.

Economic strength would be augmented not by allying ourselves with the US, but with asia. America remains one of our largest trading partners, but that trend has been changing since the days of Paul Keating. Your argument here holds little water, and smacks of grandstanding.

Mahathir's reaction towards Howard was, in my opinion, more of a knee-jerk reaction at the idea of pre-emptive strikes. In fact, almost all of the South-East Asia countries reacted negatively to Howard's statement mainly because it suggested challenging the sovereignity of their nations.

While I can understand Howard's need to be assertive in the fight against terrorism, I think it would do him much good to be more tactful in expressing this assertiveness.

Countries that make up Australia's immediate neighbours - Indonesia, Malaysia, Philipines, Singapore have been taking pro-active steps in cracking down on terrorism in their own soil. They are no more comfortable about terrorism than the average westerner. Perhaps there is more mutual benefits to be gained if Australia were to pursue agressive partnerships with these countries in battling terrorism rather than go at it alone. That way, Australia would not be seen as distancing itself from its region while the other countries would not see Australia as a threat to their sovereignity.

1119...

Yes, it was a knee jerk. I used the example to illustrate how he thinks, and the point remains.

Could this new found nationalism have anything to do with problems related to immigrants, like here in holland?

Aussies generally are the most laid-back and cool people I know, but I would be seriously pissed off as an aussie with that attack on Bali and demand to seek out and destroy these nutters.

also I wouldn't exactly welcome new heaps of immigrants that pray to the same god as the terrorists do and that often only bring an empty stomach and no ambition to adapt to australian culture and contribute to australian soceity.

I mean nobody is complaining about the many tens of thousands of Dutch immigrants to australie during the 50's and 60's. Why not?

Because we actually went along with the other pioneers and help to shape what australia and new zealand are today. We set up farms and factories and stores and we damn well like a surfboard and a cold beer!

Immigrant problems are sweeping the world every which way you turn these days & this is yet another case. But will the current policy work? This is but a page of a wearily long future in which you & yours will 1 day stand & be accountable - for peace of mind (yours) hopefully Howard is doing the right thing. I'm a Kiwi I know the problems Aus has regards immigrants as does NZ & any other developed nation for that matter, but the hasty stroke often goes astray. It goes without say that the pre-emptive thing is a nightmare just waiting for you to fall asleep but there are other creepy crawlies in your bed. The consequences of whats happening now will have far reaching implications, especially to an increasingly diverse populace such as yours- a division has been set, a line has been drawn, suspicions aroused & confirmed & any way to make amends will be seen as indecision - you've crossed the Rubicon. This goes well beyond trade, it will affect daily attitudes, it will affect that thing called the nation - but which "nation" as now there will be recognised splinters. You'll almost be able to visualise which part of Australia is talking, or being talked to when Howard makes any speech - the cohesion has been lost, some feel co-erced into something they didn't ask for.
What percentage of Aus is Asians? An Ausie abroad or naturalised in another country is still an Aussie do you think it's any different with Asians, should it be different? They do their fair share of economic work & investment but should they also surf & drink beer to be "real Aussies" is there a criteria? Generations of perantage, passport? What makes an Ausie equal to another Ausie? Are you now going to say we're protecting the "original" Australians or the Australians that got here 3+ generations ago - that is setting the stage for a drama if you ask me.
What does Australia want from all this do you think? I 'd hate to think this was a mindless leap of faith. Are you after power, prestige, honour, upholding ideals, good old freedom, what is the motive, what? what is this about? The bombing of Australians is despicable as it is to bomb anyone - good luck on getting them & fire at will if/when you face them. But who do you want to protect - ALL AUSTRALIANS , only that now heaps of Asians are now Australians too, agh, so now instead of acting with the backing of an entire united nation you have to leave some of it lagging & maybe march against some of it?? I know enough Aussies to know this - you want Asian money without the Asians,& in the wide halls of freedom hey that's alright too. US money would be better as it's too far for them to be coming to you anyway & obviously less likey. All I'm saying without preaching to the converted is that don't throw stones if you live in glass houses. Get rid of the decoration around the talk. It's about to hit the fan & you know it. It dosen't help that in recent years that right -wing woman has become more & more popular, Howard feels he has to perform & maybe he has over-performed or maybe performed so well that this may be the final act in which he'll have no encore. Get a front row seat & tell me all about it Squid.:p

DownUnder in many ways like US. Is a land build up from necessities, necessities of the human kind, the tragedy of universal history. Peculiar that in similar manner as in US, they tend to be blindly nationalistic.

…I have always found very amusing when an Asian looking individual while chewing gum, preaches about the great American patriotism, or a second generation wog is bitching about the some many aborigines married to asussie ladies in New South Wales.

We, the modern civilized world are accustomed to homosexuals, accustomed to nude-beaches and the prostitution industry,… what the heck, is been there since ancient time!
Not too long ago, our own religions were attempting to constrain our wild desires, but for the benefit of economies, we too, managed to blend it to our popular fancy.

….We have no problem in profiting from ignorant sub-cultures, managed by corrupted or incompetent governments, when we profit from sex-tourism in Asia or South America, having the largest concentration of Australian, Japanese and British pedophilias in south east Asia.
We do not show them our best but abuse them in every possible way as our ancestors did with the natives in the far west.
…..When a small group of those sub-cultures get tire of our luck of sensitivity and respect for local values. They can explode by committing crimes as in Bali, to that we call it terrorism, and we don’t even try to contemplate if our ways of enforcing our will and pleasures may be seen as a form of terrorism in their own way.

We hypocritically demand that when those primitive cultures migrate to our paradise, that they should adjust and exchange their own culture and identity.

To those who talk and act as if they own the land they a walking on, I have bad news.
….In time you will have to leave it, and just as when you were born, you will not take a single grain with you. That I promise you!!

Just in case, should you tread on my foot, whaahahahaRoFloL!:p