It seems this bombing in Bali was targeted at a place full of Australians. I mean LOTS of Australians. Much like Earl's Court in London. You often find these little Australian areas in other countries, where they gather and drink, much like moths to a flame. The irresistible draw of the beer.

Now, attacking the USA, you might say that was a dumb thing to do, considering the truly ridiculous size of the USA's military. But attacking Australia??? What kind of nut does that? My country has deliberately kept a very low international profile since WW2, while always sticking its fingers into various pies. barely anything happens that doesn't have some Australians involved at some level, but for the most part it's very low-profile. Even so, we have some of the world's finest special forces units, who are always being borrowed by other nations, such as the USA, because they are so damn good. Our intelligence agencies are bloody scary, and even most Australians know nothing about them; they, too, keep a very low profile, unlike the well-publicised US agencies. Seriously, ASIS has people all over the friggin world.

They can see the USA coming. The USA has publicity campaigns, discussions with the UN, gigantic military build-ups, and fleets of ships sailing into various places. With Australia, however, you don't see it coming. An ASIS agent might contract an assassin or a mercenary group in Iran. Some SAS troops might drop into some country, kill some people, and get out before anyone knows they're in town. Our chaps don't ask the UN, and don't wait for UN approval. They don't do paperwork, and they don't fight wars in front of CNN cameras. Many people I have met from various nations' military forces consider Australia's military not quite a regular army, more a very large and versatile special forces group.

If you're worried about your country being bombed, invaded, or altered, worry about the Americans. But if you're worried about your life, worry about the Australians.

Now, this may seem like a bunch of reflexive patriotic crap, but seriously, this is how Australia works in these matters. It's why the USA always borrows our SAS and CDs and such, and it's why our intelligence chaps are always present when things are happening.

Gotta be some dumb people out there.

interesting adam

i had never even herd of asis till recently but i always thought asio was a joke as far as intel was concerned

Quick question for Australians here, was Australia supporting attack on Iraq or not? Just a thought passed my mind, because of recent fire in French tanker and then Bali ..............seems like countries who were not supporting usa are now beeing targeted, specialy France. Any thoughts?.

so what are the implications?
asis is gonna go after al queda or who ever is responsible?
i hope they will. we need all the help we can get!
lets get this thing over and done with. i woudnt mind vacationing in bali

The mistake you are making here, Adam, is in assuming that terrorists are intelligent.

"Australia with US... bomb Australia too" is about as far as they get. You think we've been hurt? We lost a lot of holiday goers.

Bali has just lost it's livelihood.

Are you an expert on the Australian armed forces, Adam?

The mistake you are making here, Adam, is in assuming that terrorists are intelligent

So Osama must of been a real dumbass to of pulled off the 9-11 events.

I can only assume you don't know the importance of Bali to the Indonesian economy, coun'sler.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2325479.stm

So tell me, seriously... who has been hurt?

Originally posted by James R
Are you an expert on the Australian armed forces, Adam?

More so than most others here. He served in the Australian navy for a few years. :cool:

al Quaita isnt just after the US, it is after all of western civilization. Australia shares much of America's culture.

I am sorry for the Australian people that they should have to suffer such a tragedy.

Now that nations have fallen to bickering amoungst themselves as how best to proceed, if to proceed at all, the terrorists have once again gotten brave and struck.

Folks, this isn't going to go away by refusing to deal with it. Many point out that by striking back that we are creating a whole next generation of sucide bombers.

Well, talking hasn't done anything to slow it down. Before Afganstan was invaded (or whatever words you care to put in place) many countries wanted Oslama. The Taliban was his protector and refused to give him up all comers. It was a nice solution for him. A government to protect him. That one hiding place is no longer a place where he can go about without concern. Now say what you will, it has an effect. No other country had managed to oust him from his adopted home.

Many countries have suffered the attacks from this group of sects. Either we root them out, or throw up our hands, welcome them in to be our leaders and live life as Afganstanees have under the yoke of the Taliban. As far as they are concerned you don't have any other choice. They are not going to quit, they are not going to listen to western reason, and they will keep coming till finally they come up with the methods to hurt more than just a few people clustered into one area. When WMD are used, it will have been far to late to say we should have done it sooner. And someone, some where in the world will bear the brunt of it when they do. As this attack has shown, no one, I repeat, no one is safe that lives in western culture. If you don't agree with this line of reason, I suggest you go ahead and avoid the rush. Get your order in now for your tombstone. It is but a matter of time...

Squid Vicious

The mistake you are making here, Adam, is in assuming that terrorists are intelligent.

"Australia with US... bomb Australia too" is about as far as they get. You think we've been hurt? We lost a lot of holiday goers.

Bali has just lost it's livelihood.

All very true.

James R

Are you an expert on the Australian armed forces, Adam?

A bit.

It has made Bali more famous than before.

On the news they were saying that ASIO and the AFP are really annoyed because the bomb scene was not secured. Since it happened, news crews have been running about in there, so conceredn with getting good pictures and a better sory that they have trampled the place. Finding evidence in the blast site is unlikely. ASIO and AFP only got there today, and basically there's nothing left for them. Thanks, you really smart reporters. Well done.

Aussie death toll now 30 (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5294704%255E2,00.html)

Army explosive used in Bali bomb (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5293969%255E2,00.html)

I don't believe Australia was targetted. I think the only people who believe that seem to be the leaders down there and those who are influenced.

The change in al-Qaeda strategies is an al-Zawahiri masterpiece: destroy consumer confidence and thus damage economies; the reason Bali got hit was that another few whacks to the tourism/airline industries will make the USA more ill, not less. The reason the oil tanker got hit was to raise panic among manufacturers and raise prices. Between those two, airlines and several other industries will crumble, starting a chain reaction...

And understanding chain reactions in the JCSA economy is what these people are *brilliant* at.

Also, Osama bin Laden was/is no dumbass... he's brave, determined, spiritually whole and highly intelligent. If he's dead I am upset for the loss of one more honest warrior in this world.

Originally posted by prozak

Also, Osama bin Laden was/is no dumbass... he's brave, determined, spiritually whole and highly intelligent. If he's dead I am upset for the loss of one more honest warrior in this world.
It is brave, honest, and "spiritually whole" to deliberately target civilians?


What is JCSA?

"While the Yemen incident was apparently a suicide attack, it is not clear if the Bali explosions were also suicide attacks. For many months now, Indonesia has been developing as a major hub of South East Asia-based Islamic terrorist groups with two different motivations -- a pan-Islamic one aiming to achieve a Caliphate in the region covering southern Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, southern Philippines and Brunei; an anti-Christian one targeting the Christian community, many of whose members happen to be ethnic Chinese."

"The Bali explosions probably mark the return to Indonesia of some of the dregs from Afghanistan and Pakistan. The talk in Pakistani madrasas has been that from now onwards members of the International Islamic Front would conduct a well-orchestrated series of terrorist attacks against Western nationals and interests in different parts of the world as warning signals to pre-empt US-UK military strikes against Iraq. The attacks on the French tanker off Yemen and in Bali were apparently part of this planned series and more are likely as the US and the UK go ahead with their preparations for an attack on Iraq for the overthrow of President Saddam Hussein. "

"Amongst the foreign nationals who fought in the International Islamic Front as members of_its Pakistani components were American Muslims (mostly African-American), nationals/residents_of West European countries, Thais, Malaysians, Singaporeans, who projected themselves as Malays from Malaysia and Indonesians. Their total number was_estimated to be about 200. Practically all of them had been recruited by_the Harkats and Lashkar teams, which went to these countries posing as preachers of the Tablighi Jamaat, brought to Pakistan and trained in various madrasas with funds provided by the TJ and then taken to Afghanistan to get a jehad inoculation.

In addition to those mentioned above, there were_about 400 foreign students recruited by the Harkats and Lashkar from Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand, who were studying at the various madrasas in Pakistan before their being inducted into jehad. Of these, 190 were being trained in jehad at the madrasas of_Sindh, 151 in the_madrasas of_Punjab and 59 in those of__the North-West Frontier Province.

Of the 190 being trained in Sindh, 86 were from Malaysia, 82 from Thailand and 22 from Indonesia. Of the 151 being trained in the Punjab, 61 were from Malaysia, 49 from Thailand and 41 from Indonesia. Of the 59 being trained in the NWFP, 21 were from Indonesia, 20 from Malaysia and 18 from Thailand. Thus, there were_167 Malaysians, 149 Thais and 84 Indonesians being trained in various madrasas in Pakistan"

http://www.indiaabroad.com/news/2002/oct/14raman.htm

al quaeda's new home (http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/sep/18raman.htm)

*the time for action is now!

Originally posted by prozak
The change in al-Qaeda strategies is an al-Zawahiri masterpiece: destroy consumer confidence and thus damage economies; the reason Bali got hit was that another few whacks to the tourism/airline industries will make the USA more ill, not less.

Er, Prozac... explain something to me please? How exactly does bombing Bali hurt America? or anyone else other than the Balinese themselves and Indonesia in general? American tourists don't go to Bali much.

Does a bombing Bali really hurt Americans ?

adam is right

bail might as well be part of Australia for the amount of aussies there

We lost more people in New York. In fact we lost more people in a bus crash a while ago.

Indonesia lost a lot more people. These psychos also attacked the world's largest Muslin nation.

anyone thought this might just be some asshole like did the goverment building in the US?

if some old lady gets her bag snatched at the moment its a terrioust

Living in Melbourne, it's hard to convey the feeling of despair that has befallen the entire country.

Australians have , for decades, travelled to Bali for surfing, partying and a general good time. Bali, although part of mainly muslim Indonesia, is predominantly Hindu, and thought to be safe from the troubles of the world.

There are those here that blame the US for what has happened, and our close association with the US that has made us a target. I say it's because we're seen as infidels and have such fun, fun that is imposible under Islam.

In the US and other parts of the world, this event may be trivial, but we are hurting here, hurting like never before. Why our kids? why those who were just out to have fun?:(

Seems someone is trying to stir the sheep.

But it's wrong to do anything without international approval.

Stay in your country's borders, and await the next terrorist attack.

I don't think it's wise to sit back and wait on these people. Their hatred may not be towards Americans or Australians only. The whole world may be at risk. First, target the western super-powers and its allies. Who's next? If Osama (or members of the terrorist group in context) are trying to establish an Islamic dominion, then all is at risk. All nations are at risk.

No reason to over-react. Other countries have fell victim to terrorist attacks. Get used to it. No reason to go on a man hunt.

The death toll for the Bali bombing has gone up and down a lot. Now the news is saying 92 Australians died.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
No reason to over-react. Other countries have fell victim to terrorist attacks. Get used to it. No reason to go on a man hunt.
Get used to it? That's just silly.

Australia has deliberately kept a low profile since WW2, conrtibuting mostly in covert ways when the USA or Britain wandered around blowing things up. "Walk quietly and carry a big stick" has been our policy. Now various people are pulling Australia more into the open.

Get used to it? That's just silly.

I know it is, Adam.

I think all terrorists, and supporters of terrorism, should be hunted down and killed.

My previous posts were the kind of responses I have gotten from other people when I talk about the US going after terrorists. It's not how I really feel.

I don't blame Australians for keeping a low profile, either. It would be impossible for Americans to do the same, though.

You were in the Navy? I don't know what it's called in Australia...Royal Navy? No, that's Britain. I'm a U.S. Marine. I was stationed at the Pentagon when the terrorists hit it with a plane full of people. I really want to see the people responsible pay.

the australian navy is the RAN (royal australian navy)

the airforce is the RAAF (royal australian air force)

the army is just the army i think

Royal Australian Army.

ASIS was created at the height of the cold war and has very close links with the American CIA.

If you read Australian history (material that has recently been declassified), you'll discover that in the 1970s or thereabouts when the Americans were publicly in dispute with the new leftist Chilean government of Allende, and the cold war was well under way, ASIS agents acted on behalf of the CIA and operated covertly in Santiago to remove the leftist president Allende. Then Allende's government was closely monitoring the CIA and other signs of US presence in the country. So the Americans turned to Australia. Of course international law and convention since 1907 (Hague Convention) expressly forbids political assassinations. Thus, Allende's death was at the time attributed to suicide and/or a by product of a coup d'etat.

Interestingly, ASIS's presence and involvement in Chile was not revealed to the public until an Australian government inquiry in 1977.

These days, the activities of ASIS and our other intelligence and defence organisations are governed by strict legislation, thus it would be difficult to imagine this sort of thing happening again.

But there is no doubt that Australia has the military and intelligence capability to covertly penetrate any country and neutralise a threat without anyone knowing.

"But there is no doubt that Australia has the military and intelligence capability to covertly penetrate any country and neutralise a threat without anyone knowing."

Sure wish they'd go do that with Hussein.

why should we?

why should WE breach international law?

Because American secret service obviously cannot do it and I wish someone who is capable and able to do it so we can finally rid the world of another f*cker. Actually, I would have a whole grocery list of f*ckers to assasinate if the Australians would do it. It might make the world a little more peaceful. Or it might make it more chaotic, who knows. I would just rather see one dead f*cker than thousands of dead innocents.

my hit list would go

Howard
Bush (and his whole cabinate)
migarby
sudam
blair
osama

and everyone whos ever worked at microcrap:p

*Laughs*

Do you actually think you could kill, Asguard?

no

i couldnt pull the trigger unless i felt there was no other choice and i couldnt do it for myself

so i probably could kill bush (because hes threatning people i care more about than i do myself) but no one else on that list

there ARE a few people i could flay tho, without any hesitation (altho i would resign myself to justice afterwards)

Um, just out of curiosity, who is Bush threatening that you care about? You and Hussein lovers or something? I was never really into guys with moustaches, but if that's your thing, go for it.

actully i was talking about my GF who unfortunatly LIVES in the US

Well, Bush isn't exactly threatening her, then is he? Blaming him for possable sloppy, and missdirected retalitory actions from extreemist groups isn't exactly fare.

i was thinking more about the secruity laws hes passing like the law that says if you shop with someone who turns out to be REMOTLY conected to a "terioust organisation" you can spend the rest of your life as an "illegal combatant"

Originally posted by Mystech
Um, just out of curiosity, who is Bush threatening that you care about?

How about the Iraqi civilians?

Asguard knows those 24,001,816 people? Wow, he must be a very social man.

Originally posted by Adam
How about the Iraqi civilians?

Well, unless asguard is an amazingly over compassionate person, or has powers of empathy far beyond those of mortal men, I'd imagine that he values his own life above those of Iraqi citizens he's never even met. He may feel a general sadness for their deaths in the same sence that any person would feel for someone they've never met who died, but I doubt that his reaction would be that much more intense as to fit his previous statement.

As for Iraqi citizens dieing, do remember that I and my generation are missing out on Medicare, and social security so that 95% of the bombs we can drop in this war will be lazer guided and all that, reducing collateral damage as much as possable. Also, if you have problems with the possability of Iraqi casualties, go bitch at sadam for putting military targets next to or on top of hospitals, schools, and the like.

So you are saying one must personally know another person to care about them?

HELLO????????????

am i all of a sudden invisable that you all talk over my head

first off i DONT value myself above people i dont know
i would happerly DIE (not kill) to protect someone i had never met

BUT other people i DO know i tend to put way above myself (ie if xev was in troble she would come way before me)

oviously my GF comes at the top of that





so are we finished talking about my moral code?

To care about them in a real sense, yes.
I feel compassion for said civilians, but I cannot say that I care about them in any true or meaningful sense. It's an abstraction, as my feelings for all but one or two people are.

Mystech:
Um, just out of curiosity, who is Bush threatening that you care about?

Adam:
How about the Iraqi civilians?

HA HA!!!

Adam, where has GWB threatened Iraqi civilians? What article, interview, news clip did you get that from?

If the US attacks Iraq, Iraqi civilians may die, just as some US troops may die. Iraqi civilian casualties may be higher than necessary, but not at the hands of the evil aggressor GWB, but the peace loving Saddam Hussein. :rolleyes:

I have a tip for all Iraqi's that will increase their likelihood of surviving this dilemma: If there is a SCUD launcher parked next to your mosque, find another mosque!

my hit list would go

Howard
Bush (and his whole cabinate)
migarby
sudam
blair
osama

and everyone whos ever worked at microcrap


so i probably could kill bush (because hes threatning people i care more about than i do myself) but no one else on that list

i would happerly DIE (not kill) to protect someone i had never met

BUT other people i DO know i tend to put way above myself (ie if xev was in troble she would come way before me)

Hey man, you gotta learn to love yourself. If you continue to live your life putting everyone else's needs before your own, I forsee people walking all over you...if they don't already. How can you expect anyone to treat you with any dignity if you don't?:confused:

Adam, where has GWB threatened Iraqi civilians? What article, interview, news clip did you get that from?

Um... Did you miss all that stuff about the USA building up for war?


If the US attacks Iraq, Iraqi civilians may die, just as some US troops may die. Iraqi civilian casualties may be higher than necessary, but not at the hands of the evil aggressor GWB, but the peace loving Saddam Hussein. :rolleyes:

So, Saddam isn't attacking anyone. The USA is the aggressor. And that means it isn't the USA's fault if the USA kills heaps of civilians. Right. Gotcha.


I have a tip for all Iraqi's that will increase their likelihood of surviving this dilemma: If there is a SCUD launcher parked next to your mosque, find another mosque!

Why should they leave their own churches? Because the USA will be bombing churches?


So, in general, what you're saying is that it's the fault of the Iraqi civilains if the USA sends its army half way around the world and drops bombs on them?

hello? hello? yes. yes! everything is in place. we await your order to excute the plan! over!

Why should they leave their own churches? Because the USA will be bombing churches?

Because the USA and it's allies will be bombing said SCUD launchers...which Saddam has placed next to the mosques.

Um... Did you miss all that stuff about the USA building up for war?

Um, no. People die in wars. More people die when their leaders place SCUD launchers next to their homes and churches.

So, in general, what you're saying is that it's the fault of the Iraqi civilains if the USA sends its army half way around the world and drops bombs on them?

Generally speaking, no. It is Saddam's fault.

So, Saddam isn't attacking anyone. The USA is the aggressor. And that means it isn't the USA's fault if the USA kills heaps of civilians. Right. Gotcha.

No. Saddam doesn't comply with UN resolutions for over a decade, and continues to attempt to deceive the world. The US is calling his bluff, and he decides to use his people as human shields. It's Saddam's fault.

VAKEMP

I'm sure George will be pleased to see that some people are still ignorant enough to support him.

Dee Cee

Thanks for your wonderful addition to this thread DeeCee. I'm sure all of us at SciForums have done nothing but benefitted from your posts. Please continue to smoke :m: :m: :m: , as it is reenforcing your delusions that Saddam is harmless, and we can leave him alone and continue to smoke :m: :m: :m: until he starts killing our families. I mean, what the heck, what's gonna stop him from doing it? He already does it to his own people, and we'll all be too high from smoking :m: :m: :m: to care!

Vakemp

I ain't a great one for cut and paste but being the lazy soul I am let me copy something I posted elsewhere.

"I want to ask you a simple question. I'll even give you some info to help you along.
Lets talk about George. As I'm sure you already know;

George gained the Presidency when he took Florida by a massive 537 votes, but thats a long story for another day.

He had the largest campaign fund ever. $190 million, $115 million of that from just 700 individuals. Thats a major investment!

George admits that he used to "drink to much" and "realized that alcohol was beginning to crowd out my energies and could crowed, eventually, my affections for other people". I won't even mention his arrest for drink/driving. Fuck it yes I will. When asked about it George said it was "in my youth". George was in his thirties at the time.....

Mind you Dick Chaney has been busted twice for DUI so I guess George is driving...

Georges other two arrests were dull in comparison. One for disorderly conduct and one for stealing Christmas decorations as a college prank.

Vakemp still with me? How many people you know been arrested 3 times?

When asked in 1999 about alleged cocaine abuse he said he had committed "no felonies in the last 25 years". Hmmm

Perhaps I shouldn't be so personal. A mans entitled to a private life I mean I cherish mine. All the more since I heard about the Patriot act. Lets look at Georges political achievements, that after all is how we should judge him.

George has;

Cut funding for advanced pediatric training by £35 million (remember now that Detroit has a higher child mortality rate than Tripoli)

Cut $200 million from programmes that provide child care to low income familiies.

Cut $15.7 million from programmes dealing with child abuse and neglect.

Cut funding for research into cleaner more efficient cars

Pulled out of Kyoto

Cut half a billion dollars from the enviromental protection budget.

Abandoned an election pledge to reduce CO2 emissions.

Proposed selling of oil and gas rights in the Alaska wildlife preserve.

Pushed through a tax cut, 43% of which goes to the wealthiest 1%.

Announced plans to allow oil drilling in Montana's Lewis and Clark national park.

Enough! I could go on but I won't. Maybe George has good reasons for doing what he does. Lets see what he has to say.

"And I know something about being a government. And you've got a good one."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "Remarks by the President at Arkansas Welcome, Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport," Nov. 4, 2002

"The solid truth of the matter is, when you find—if you want to help heal the hurt, if you want to you hurt people—help people in pain, the best way to do so is to call upon the great strength of the country, which is the compassion of our fellow Americans."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks," Nov. 4, 2002

"I was proud the other day when both Republicans and Democrats stood with me in the Rose Garden to announce their support for a clear statement of purpose, "You disarm, or we will.'"
—Bush, speaking about Saddam Hussein Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks at a Sununu for Senate Fundraiser," Oct. 5, 2002

"I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here."
Source: PR Newswire, "Remarks by the President at the Economic Forum Health Care Security Session," Aug. 13, 2002

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."
Source: ABCnews.com, Feb. 21, 2001

"Do you have blacks, too?"
Bush, speaking to Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso

And my favourite....

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it."
Source: BusinessWeek Online, July 27, 2001

There's more but my tanks are empty. All the above information is freely available in the public domain. Even George himself won't deny a word of it. Now it's time to move on.

I want to ask you a question, here goes;

Why do you trust a word this man says and how can you consider supporting his goverment at a time in history when the stakes are so high and the motivations so suspect?

There's your question. It's not an American question, just a George question. The people of America deserve better and thats what their friends are telling them."


Personally I believe that there may be grounds for attacking Saddam (I said Saddam not Iraq), but the situation at the moment rules out any support from me. George has hijacked the US and it's military. Doesn't this bother you?

Dee Cee (now where did I put that spliff?)

Just out of curiousity, DeeCee, are you capable of origional thought?

Yo Xev

I am indeed capable of original thought. I'm just to lazy to bother without good reason:)

Hmm, so thought isn't something that comes naturally to you? You have to work at it?

Not really. Just that the concept of originality is overrated. I doubt that most people have more than a handfull of original thoughts in an entire lifetime. After all, with all the billions of people alive today and all those billions long dead. How can I possible know if somebody has been there before me?
Like I said true originality takes effort. Effort I can ill afford to spend on a bunch of strangers I will never meet or truly get to know. I got a life to live after all.

"There are only so many stories"
Dee Cee

edit
Hope we ain't hijacking your thread Adam. Just a little quiet here right now.
end edit

Why do you trust a word this man says and how can you consider supporting his goverment at a time in history when the stakes are so high and the motivations so suspect?
Personally I believe that there may be grounds for attacking Saddam

So, we're in agreement then.

tora tora tora

Hey V

Forgive me if I read you wrong.
I Believe that as a last resort, force may be acceptable in the face of an attack from any foreign power, including America;)
The Iraqi people should be defended. not bombed.
If you feel the same way, then yes, we are in agreement

Nice to find someone who agrees with me
Dee Cee

Originally posted by EvelinaAnville
"But there is no doubt that Australia has the military and intelligence capability to covertly penetrate any country and neutralise a threat without anyone knowing."

Sure wish they'd go do that with Hussein.

Sounds like alot of pride in you Adam. Australia doesn't have the best trained "special forces" in the world. "Penetrate any country" - you are speaking too highly of Australia.

Britain and USA, and then I'd say Australia. :p

You act as if the US doesn't do things covertly.

Originally posted by ~The_Chosen~
Sounds like alot of pride in you Adam. Australia doesn't have the best trained "special forces" in the world. "Penetrate any country" - you are speaking too highly of Australia.

Britain and USA, and then I'd say Australia. :p

You act as if the US doesn't do things covertly.

Having worked with the special forces and regular military of both Britain and the USA, I can say... bollocks!

Is it possible that Adam and I actually agree on something? Seems it is. Quick, Adam, change your opinion before it's too late!