The Atheist position is indeed hopeless .

The believer has hope. If there is a God and there is life after death then the believer wins. If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing. On the other hand, the Atheist loses badly if he wakes up to discover himself in the afterlife. In sum, if there is no afterlife both the believer and the Atheist are safe. But if there is an afterlife then the Atheist loses. The only one who can possibly lose is the Atheist.

Now the Atheist can argue that if there is no afterlife then the believer has wasted his life in false hope. I can reply that Islam gives our lives order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction. We have hope founded on clear facts and dependable revelation from Allah.

On the other hand, it is the Atheist who is wasting his life. His life has no purpose but temporary enjoyment. But such enjoyment is always tempered by nagging doubts about whether or not life is heading in the right direction. It is the believer who lives in quiet confidence that God's promise is true.

The key, then, is to remind the Atheist that he is the only one who stands to lose. Sure he may have questions, doubts, and objections to some of the details of Islam. But rather than waste a lot of time trying to answer for the details, bring the discussion back to the fundamentals. Is there a God? Is there an afterlife? Is the Atheist secure?

Even if the Atheist has doubts it is still reasonable for him to embrace Islam.

To illustrate this fact, consider this situation. You are told that there is a speed-trap set by police to catch speeders on a certain road. Even if you doubt the information you must still act as though you believe it. You will slow down just to be on the safe side. You feel no need to start arguing that the police would never do a thing like that, or that you drove there before and never got caught speeding. In a similar sense the Atheist can simply submit in Islam although he still has doubts. Rather than argue about what he doubts he should first get on the safe side and then investigate further.

The reasonable thing, then, is for the Atheist to accept Islam right away. If he will not take this reasonable position, then why should you argue with an unreasonable person?


I will remind the atheists that even if Islam is wrong you are still safe. But if Islam is right you are in deep trouble. To use an expression, the Atheist may well be up the creek without a paddle.

Was this written by a 6 year old child?

I'll tell you what.....when I am walking down the white tunnel....I will become a believer! And as I was always told...God forgives all....so its win win.

"If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing."

except that he wasted his life with nonsense and failed to life the only life he ever had.
Sounds like a lose lose situation to me. No life while alive and no life after death.

Pascal's Wager is no more compelling when presented in some bastardized, Islamic form. Allah is a fairy-tale warranting no more belief than does Ba'al, YHWH, Sol Invictus, or Kali.

My own personal opinion, as one who does not believe in any gods at all, is that atheists and agnostics in general do indeed have hope.

It seems to me that a common theistic theme is "be good or bad things will happen to you in the afterlife". The problem with this is that people will be good not because they choose it freely, but because they fear the consequences of disobedience.

For those who do not believe in gods and an afterlife, and thus have no fera of such, the choice is completely free. With no fear of adverse consequences, with no force influencing my opinion, I have hope that people can improve, and that we humans can make the world a better place.

Which, to you, is better:
- Choosing to be good because you are threatened with damnation if you don't?
- Or choosing to be good because you really want to?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jusmeig

I'll tell you what.....when I am walking down the white tunnel....I will become a believer! And as I was always told...God forgives all....so its win win.
============================

God almighty DOES NOT forgive the most basic fact: believing in his existence.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
"If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing."

except that he wasted his life with nonsense and failed to life the only life he ever had.
Sounds like a lose lose situation to me. No life while alive and no life after death.
==========================

I am a believer, I am NOT wasting my life with nonesense, I am very happy with my life.

It is you the unbeliever who will lose if there is (and there is) GOD.

I will remind the atheists that even if Islam is wrong you are still safe. But if Islam is right you are in deep trouble. To use an expression, the Atheist may well be up the creek without a paddle.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Pascal's Wager is no more compelling when presented in some bastardized, Islamic form. Allah is a fairy-tale warranting no more belief than does Ba'al, YHWH, Sol Invictus, or Kali.
======================================

When your WRONGER was alive he denied GOD and when he died God laughed and asked his angels: WHERE IS HE NOW ??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam

Which, to you, is better:
- Choosing to be good because you are threatened with damnation if you don't?
- Or choosing to be good because you really want to?
===========================================

But wanting to be good is HUMAN nature, you dont need holy books to tell you to save injured man in the streets.

You dont rush to help people in trouble after car accedients because you were told to do so, you do it because it is part of your HUMAN NATURE.

The holy book encourage you to do good, supply you with the OIL that push the good side of you.

Greenworld, here is a list of the top 22 of 4200 religions (source: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html).

Why is Christianity the right one? What's wrong with all the other relgions? Will the majority of the world's population burn in hell for not being christian, yet they firmly believe that all the others will burn in hell. Funny really. Man needs to put a reason behind his existance/life/death and this is what thousends of cultures the world over come up with the same fairytale.

Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bryboru
Greenworld, here is a list of the top 22 of 4200 religions (source: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html).

Why is Christianity the right one? What's wrong with all the other relgions? Will the majority of the world's population burn in hell for not being christian, yet they firmly believe that all the others will burn in hell. Funny really. Man needs to put a reason behind his existance/life/death and this is what thousends of cultures the world over come up with the same fairytale.

=====================================

VERY INTERESTING POINT.

Islam does not teach us that all non-muslims will burn in hell.

in fact, the holy quran teach us that many christians and jews and other believers before them will end up in paradise.

Allah almighty quranttes the ETERNAL HELL ONLY and EXCLUSIVLY for the ones who insist on denying his existence.

You're contradicting yourself.

"Allah almighty quranttes the ETERNAL HELL ONLY and EXCLUSIVLY for the ones who insist on denying his existence"

But if you are Christian you worship one and only, almighty God, there is no other God but me...etc., etc., therefore denying the existance of Allah and going to Islamic hell!!!!

Yet you said that "christians and jews and other believers before them will end up in paradise", so which is it????

Plus there is another 4200 relgions that's millions an millions of poor souls damned to hell, just cause they didn't know any better. And these are only the religons that exist now, what about the thousends of other religons, that existed centuries before. That must be billions and billions of souls rotting and burning in hell just cause they never heard of the one true religion.

Stop fooling yourself.

Originally posted by Green_World
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
"If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing."

except that he wasted his life with nonsense and failed to life the only life he ever had.
Sounds like a lose lose situation to me. No life while alive and no life after death.
==========================

I am a believer, I am NOT wasting my life with nonesense, I am very happy with my life.

It is you the unbeliever who will lose if there is (and there is) GOD.

I will remind the atheists that even if Islam is wrong you are still safe. But if Islam is right you are in deep trouble. To use an expression, the Atheist may well be up the creek without a paddle.

well, your life was based on nonsense (it didn't make sense to believe in god and live under a religious doctrine = non-sense) if there is no god. This statement is not connected to your happines. Inject yourself with heroin everyday and you will also feel happy.

hence, you waste your life with nonsense and fail to live the only life you ever had, if god doesn't exist.

so you are not better off (in the chance department) as an atheist despite your illusion that you are. So that is not a reason to be religious.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bryboru
You're contradicting yourself.

"Allah almighty quranttes the ETERNAL HELL ONLY and EXCLUSIVLY for the ones who insist on denying his existence"

But if you are Christian you worship one and only, almighty God, there is no other God but me...etc., etc., therefore denying the existance of Allah and going to Islamic hell!!!!

Yet you said that "christians and jews and other believers before them will end up in paradise", so which is it????
=====================================
G W :

First I did not say ALL christians and jews will go to paradise, I said many of them.

second, christians DONT worship ONE god, they worship MAN as God and this is sheer HERESY in Islam, the christians and jews who will go to paradise are the EARLY ones who believed in GOD and not in MAN.

======================================

Plus there is another 4200 relgions that's millions an millions of poor souls damned to hell, just cause they didn't know any better. And these are only the religons that exist now, what about the thousends of other religons, that existed centuries before. That must be billions and billions of souls rotting and burning in hell just cause they never heard of the one true religion.

Stop fooling yourself.
==================================

Well, you need to stop fooling your ignorance, in Islam, Allah almighty had sent PROPHETS to EVERY SINGLE nation in this world
to guide them to the right path.

He sent Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many others we dont know about, he sent prophets to the people living even in the jungles of Africa....ALLAH almighty does not BURN you in eternal hell just because you did not know, he said to us in the holy quran that I sent prophets to EVERY NATION and they have no excuse after that.

He also told us to convey the message of God to you, if you refuse to take it, you will be reminded of it in the day of judgment.

No, you're wrong-

The third commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

And secondly, "Allah almighty had sent PROPHETS to EVERY SINGLE nation in this world to guide them to the right path. "

Well nobody made up here to the little rolling hills in Ireland. And if some Celtic thug chopped this prophets head off before he could spread his devine word, why should I have to suffer the wrath of Islamic hell? That's hardly fair.

Originally posted by Green_World
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Pascal's Wager is no more compelling when presented in some bastardized, Islamic form. Allah is a fairy-tale warranting no more belief than does Ba'al, YHWH, Sol Invictus, or Kali. When your WRONGER was alive he denied GOD and when he died God laughed and asked his angels: WHERE IS HE NOW ?? I will accept that as the most 'intelligent' response at your disposal. How sad for you.

I'm not an atheist, but they have several advantages...
*atheists do not have the burden of proof
*atheists do not have to worship the God of a pedophile from the sand hills of what is now Saudi Arabia
*atheists do not have to follow the horrible rules of this religion, especially forcing their women to cover themselves unreasonably

By believer I'm assuming he means muslim. What if you are Hindu and meet Jesus? What if you are a muslim and see the Buddha when you die? Please.

I behave myself because someone told me that Santa Claus will being me presents if I'm good.
Pascals wager and all, y'know.

:rolleyes:

People who base their ethics upon personal reward are in a rather morally ambiguous position.

~Raithere

I like being hopeless: It gives me a sense of inner honesty with my self as well as lack of delusion!

Athesits are stupid, aren't they?
Glad I'm an athiest, rather than an athesit.

I'm an atheist, rather than an athiest.

You atheists are so stupard! WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO REPENT AGAINST YOUR LIES! AND ACCEPT JESUS!

There is proof that God excist, if not then I ask for proof that he doesnt excist! BECAUSE THEN MY CELL PHONE CAN GROW TO BE 20 STORIES HIGH! YOU CANT DO IT! REPENT AND ACCEPT JESUS!

I miss whatsupyall.....

Just because we can't prove god does not exist does not mean we can not have faith that god is dead as a door nail... its either that or become agnostic and spend ones time calculating the chances of god existence. My belief is that there is a reasonable chance of god/s, but at lest for me the chance that god/s gives a dam are very remote indeed! So far there has been no none testimonial/circumstantial evidence that shows god/s have done anything for us, period!

I hate athesists.

I miss whatsupyall.....

Dude. Don't go cold turkey on your meds.

So far there has been no none testimonial/circumstantial evidence that shows god/s have done anything for us, period!

Lets take the Islamic god, Allah: this god has left his people to be out smarted and continuously taken advantage of by heathen Christians. Allah let the holy lands of Mohamed be taken away by evil Jews that continue (by modern Muslim accounts) total genocide against Muslims. One could say this is a test of faith or that “god works in mysterious ways” but sense the burden of proving one cares (or at the very lest can do something) is given to the deity and not people… well you get what I am getting at.

Also if you hate atheist your not being very Christian are you?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bryboru
No, you're wrong-

The third commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

And secondly, "Allah almighty had sent PROPHETS to EVERY SINGLE nation in this world to guide them to the right path. "

Well nobody made up here to the little rolling hills in Ireland. And if some Celtic thug chopped this prophets head off before he could spread his devine word, why should I have to suffer the wrath of Islamic hell? That's hardly fair.
=======================================
You will not suffer God's eternal hell if you believe in the ONENESS of God.

Just think about it, can MAN be God ? what kind of nonesense is that ?

Just think about it, can MAN be God ?

Yes.

Originally posted by Green_World
The Atheist position is indeed hopeless .

The believer has hope. If there is a God and there is life after death then the believer wins. If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing. On the other hand, the Atheist loses badly if he wakes up to discover himself in the afterlife. In sum, if there is no afterlife both the believer and the Atheist are safe. But if there is an afterlife then the Atheist loses. The only one who can possibly lose is the Atheist.

Now the Atheist can argue that if there is no afterlife then the believer has wasted his life in false hope. I can reply that Islam gives our lives order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction. We have hope founded on clear facts and dependable revelation from Allah.

On the other hand, it is the Atheist who is wasting his life. His life has no purpose but temporary enjoyment. But such enjoyment is always tempered by nagging doubts about whether or not life is heading in the right direction. It is the believer who lives in quiet confidence that God's promise is true.

The key, then, is to remind the Atheist that he is the only one who stands to lose. Sure he may have questions, doubts, and objections to some of the details of Islam. But rather than waste a lot of time trying to answer for the details, bring the discussion back to the fundamentals. Is there a God? Is there an afterlife? Is the Atheist secure?

Even if the Atheist has doubts it is still reasonable for him to embrace Islam.

To illustrate this fact, consider this situation. You are told that there is a speed-trap set by police to catch speeders on a certain road. Even if you doubt the information you must still act as though you believe it. You will slow down just to be on the safe side. You feel no need to start arguing that the police would never do a thing like that, or that you drove there before and never got caught speeding. In a similar sense the Atheist can simply submit in Islam although he still has doubts. Rather than argue about what he doubts he should first get on the safe side and then investigate further.

The reasonable thing, then, is for the Atheist to accept Islam right away. If he will not take this reasonable position, then why should you argue with an unreasonable person?


I will remind the atheists that even if Islam is wrong you are still safe. But if Islam is right you are in deep trouble. To use an expression, the Atheist may well be up the creek without a paddle.

"And now another song, see you later G.I., this is Hanoi Rose saying, don't believe what your government tell you, believe me, I know the true way"

The propaganda sounds so familiar.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xev
[B]Yes.

==========================

You are LOST.

The Atheist position is indeed hopeless .Well, it depends on where one chooses to focus their hope.

If, for instance, what one hopes for most is a comfortable afterlife, then yes the redemptionist proposition seems very attractive. On the other hand, if one chooses to hope for the best in this life, and furthermore work to accomplish as much of that as possible, the atheistic proposition holds great potential. Freed of the fetters of religion, an atheist has a chance to pursue the true essence of humanity. Whether or not they do so is an odds game roughly equivalent to a proclaimed Christian actually attempting to walk in the way of Christ. However, in consideration of pure potential, the atheist proposition holds great hope for a tangible result. It seems, in the face of fantasy and faith, a good investment to hope for those things which can, by their nature, come about.Now the Atheist can argue that if there is no afterlife then the believer has wasted his life in false hope. I can reply that Islam gives our lives order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction. We have hope founded on clear facts and dependable revelation from Allah.As I say to any other redemptionist making the same mistake you are, that order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction is possible all without the fantasy of seventeen virgins or some other popularly-abused notion of the afterlife.

Furthermore, it would seem to me that to hope for the afterlife presents a certain ethical conflict of interest. For God knows what is written in the hearts of men, and if one hopes for the good afterlife, God knows how that hope affects the actions of a man in life. If his faith is in exchange for redemption and eternal life, his greed will be his undoing. It would seem by that notion that the proposition of hope in redemption is a contradicting condition to itself. The key, then, is to remind the Atheist that he is the only one who stands to lose. The problem with that assertion is that Pascal's Wager makes redemption a conscious consideration--one is gambling in hope of a reward. God knows what is written in the hearts of men.You are told that there is a speed-trap set by police to catch speeders on a certain road. The comparison is marred by considerations of selective enforcement, and also the reduction of God and faith to any kind of trap. It was almost a good argumentative point, but it's hard to justify in the long run. "God is a speed trap." Tell me: why did God not design the highways to reflect the capabilities of the cars that he put upon them?The reasonable thing, then, is for the Atheist to accept Islam right away. If he will not take this reasonable position, then why should you argue with an unreasonable person?Don't be surprised if many atheists choose to not argue with an unreasonable person.

Do you realize that what you are proposing is that fear of punishment and hope of reward are the most compelling reasons to have faith in God?

One would think God would expect better than CYA faith.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool: