If so, tell us about it.

No, but I keep wondering when theists will be through with theirs!

No, but I keep wondering when theists will be through with theirs!

Not all theists are on a crusade.

No, atheism just logically and naturally falls out of common sense and science.

Religious beliefs also serve to advance science, in some ways, for example, spurring the further study of evolution, by Dawkins or some others, perhaps, but I don't want to speak for the guy, even though the religious always go on to speak for their Guy, another ridiculous move, again showing that the Guy isn't even there to speak.


(Are you going to continue the big Idea of the big 'C' of Consciousness somewhere, responding to all that we said, sticking to only the harming or helping of ideas, and not the people themselves?)

I sure am.
One day though, I will find those obscure science fiction books that I've hunting for for decades. Until that day I'll keep struggling.
Did you have any other, particular, type of crusade in mind?

Not all theists are on a crusade.

No, not all but many are, and in my experience as an American agnostic it would make my relationship w/ family and acquaintances a lot easier if I believed in their Christian God or any God for that matter! In my experience most atheists and agnostics do not discuss their non belief because theists then start condemning them to hell!

No, not all but many are, and in my experience as an American agnostic it would make my relationship w/ family and acquaintances a lot easier if I believed in their Christian God or any God for that matter! In my experience most atheists and agnostics do not discuss their non belief because theists then start condemning them to hell!

When you say theists, you mean christians, right? I know that you know that theism extends beyond christianity, but it seems that when you say "theist" you're thinking "christian". But even so, most christians aren't on a crusade. Most theists aren't. Most atheists aren't. Most people aren't. It's best to take a step back and see things as they are.

Yes, I'm on a crusade to promote science and reason over superstition and faith.

[QUOTE=Kellisness;2707893]When you say theists, you mean christians, right? I know that you know that theism extends beyond christianity, but it seems that when you say "theist" you're thinking "christian". But even so, most christians aren't on a crusade. Most theists aren't. Most atheists aren't. Most people aren't. It's best to take a step back and see things as they are.[/QUOT


Being an American, I mostly come in contact w/ different sects of Christianity, however had some experiences w/ Muslims who get rather preachy at times too! Obviously you have never lived in the Bible belt, because many theists there ,which do happen to be Christians, are on a crusade!

It's the theists who are on a f#!*ing crusade and it always has been.

It's the theists who are on a f#!*ing crusade and it always has been.

And they did go on The Crusades to fights the Muslims or whomever.

And they sure crusade at SciForum, allowing us to sharpen our arguments against.

One day though, I will find those obscure science fiction books that I've hunting for for decades. Until that day I'll keep struggling.

Which ones and by who? Are they that rare that they have become only part of a collection?

Some old Roger Zelanzys (Jack of Shadows for one), Dean Koontz (when he wrote SF and not horror), some I remember vaguely from my childhood/ youth - Colin Kapp's Unorthodox Engineers, for example.
Some are so obscure now there's not even bootleg scanned copies available on the 'net - just people saying they enjoyed that particular book and where can they get a copy.

Kellishness perhaps wants to somehow hint that crusades naturally have no truth, as supposedly being just emotional undertakings, but some do and some don't.

Sciwriter is on a crusade.

Some old Roger Zelanzys (Jack of Shadows for one), Dean Koontz (when he wrote SF and not horror), some I remember vaguely from my childhood/ youth - Colin Kapp's Unorthodox Engineers, for example.
Some are so obscure now there's not even bootleg scanned copies available on the 'net - just people saying they enjoyed that particular book and where can they get a copy.

(off topic)
Doesn't the Library of Congress have them digitized by now, can't you find them there, after all it has just about every book ever copyrighted?

Doesn't have any Colin Kapp listed. :bawl:
Do they sell digital copies if I find some of the others I'm after?
Although I'd rather find a hard copy - looking through second-hand bookshops is fun.

sciwriter is on a crusade.

and?

Sciwriter is on a crusade.
And me.

I know, mr preacher man.

and?

And you too.

And you are on a crusade for brevity?

And you are on a crusade against loquaciousness?

I'm not on a crusade. You are.

And?

And that's it. You're on a crusade.

And that's it. You're on a crusade.

You're actually becoming somewhat amusing now Kellisness. One of the side effects of this is that being on some kind of crusade is starting to sound like fun. So, sign me up! I wanna be on a crusade too!

I'm on a crusade to complete a dynamic pluggable rules engine.

I'm on a crusade to complete a dynamic pluggable rules engine.

Sounds like a religion generator to me.

I'm on a crusade to better my life. As a side job, I make sure to do my best to spread reason, science and understanding--things that most religions casually dispense with.

~String

The crusade is on me, the crusade is on you.

If so, tell us about it.

Crusade for what cause?

And that's it. You're on a crusade.

I am now. :jason:

Crusade for what cause?

Kellisness can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is referring to the fact that people tend to stomp down hard on unproven assertions around here. As a result he believes that atheists are on a crusade against theists.

What he doesn't understand is that all assertions tend to get stomped on around here (unless they are accompanied by a decent amount of sound evidence), whether they are religious in nature or not.

What he doesn't understand is that ALL unproven assertions tend to get stomped on around here, whether they are religious in nature or not.
Link please.

Can you re-quote me please? I hate it when someone quotes me before I make what I feel is an important edit :P

Oh, and I don't think you really stomped hard enough just then.

Kellisness can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is referring to the fact that people tend to stomp down hard on unproven assertions around here. As a result he believes that atheists are on a crusade against theists.

What he doesn't understand is that all assertions tend to get stomped on around here (unless they are accompanied by a decent amount of sound evidence), whether they are religious in nature or not.

Unless we are philosophising within the boundaries of "god may exist or god may not exist"

Originally Posted by Rav
What he doesn't understand is that ALL unproven assertions tend to get stomped on around here, whether they are religious in nature or not.

Link please.
:roflmao:

If I went on a crusade to make you believe or disbelieve anything...I'd have to care what you think...when what I care about is what you do. If you don't do the following:

-destroy the planet
-order me around
-beat up on other people
-refuse to let children learn science

Then I really don't care what you believe.
OTOH I'm a Pagan, so I'm neither an atheist, nor am I a Christian-in fact, I have to worry about Christians.

Well, I've never had an Atheist knock on my door offering pamphlets and "good news." They seem to be a docile group until you provoke them on a forum such as this. I would hazard a guess that they are pretty tame in comparison to some religious zealotry that I've seen.

Well, I've never had an Atheist knock on my door offering pamphlets and "good news." They seem to be a docile group until you provoke them on a forum such as this. I would hazard a guess that they are pretty tame in comparison to some religious zealotry that I've seen.

I do. I like to go downtown and pass out blank sheets of paper.

:roflmao:

If I went on a crusade to make you believe or disbelieve anything...I'd have to care what you think...when what I care about is what you do. If you don't do the following:

-destroy the planet
-order me around
-beat up on other people
-refuse to let children learn science

Then I really don't care what you believe.
OTOH I'm a Pagan, so I'm neither an atheist, nor am I a Christian-in fact, I have to worry about Christians.

BURN the Pagan! Oh no that was a previous life. Oh, so I am not a Christian? I was now I'm not. I'm confused. Maybe I am a pagan too.

On a more serious note, I am on a crusade to get a theist to take me on intellectually, but sadly they all seem afeared.

By the way, I agree with you totally. :)

I do. I like to go downtown and pass out blank sheets of paper.

Totally love this! :D

The difference between belivers and non is that one is on many crusades the other on one. Does this help?

Yes, I'm on a crusade to promote science and reason over superstition and faith.

Dawkins bulldog?

jan.

Dawkins bulldog?

jan.

Dawkins is just one of the gnu atheists.

But even so, most christians aren't on a crusade. Most theists aren't. Most atheists aren't. Most people aren't. It's best to take a step back and see things as they are.

So why did you start this thread?

You were trying to provoke the atheists. So I'm experiencing a bit of cognitive whiplash when you suddenly start talking peace and moderation.

Yes, I'm on a crusade to promote science and reason over superstition and faith.


Dawkins bulldog?

You made me laugh out loud with that one!


I do. I like to go downtown and pass out blank sheets of paper.

And they had damn well better believe it too!

Lol!

So why did you start this thread?

You were trying to provoke the atheists. So I'm experiencing a bit of cognitive whiplash when you suddenly start talking peace and moderation.

I started the thread because I knew that those atheists who are on a crusade would get defensive, which is always fun to watch.

Most Atheist here aren't passive. Most have an agenda to fight a "holy war" of sorts and are extremely aggressive, prejudice, obstinate and unyielding-ly illogical about their quest.
In a figurative way they are out for blood with the intent to persecute and dominate those that do not share their particular out looks. The term Angry Atheist is a proper stereotype as can be seen by pulling up almost anything on evolution and Space on YouTube or in this particular "backyard" the common practice of hazing and bullying are permitted and encouraged despite the rules for "civility" that are posted and stickied in most threads. But since when is slinging vulgarities and bullying considered civil?

I'll tell you where...
In Frat House.

Oh yes, the rules. If there were no rules, many of the atheists here would really show their true colours.

More often than not, the arguments of atheists sound more like a politician than purely scientific/rational. That's the most interesting part of the discussion I have been observing in this science forum.

And...they see nothing wrong with that.

More often than not, the arguments of atheists sound more like a politician than purely scientific/rational. That's the most interesting part of the discussion I have been observing in this science forum.

Well put.

Most Atheist here aren't passive.If by "here" you mean those that post on this religion sub-forum, that's rather like saying "most people here drink alcohol" when walking into a bar... i.e. a pointless observation of the bleedin' obvious.
Or are you expecting atheists to post in a religion sub-forum and say "I'm here just to watch the scenery"? By posting they act... by acting they are not passive.

And to be honest with you, the rest of your post just smacks of a whiney brat who feels put upon that their points are dismissed so easily, yet can't understand why.
What you see as hazing or bullying is merely due to you not being able to accept the arguments against what you post.

In short - you're whining that you're not getting your own way: Wah wah wah.

If you dislike the treatment your posts get so much, why do you still bother?
:shrug:

I would gladly join a crusade against religion if I thought I could win, but the only weapon I have is "reason" and religion is impervious to that. Reason cannot penetrate fantasy. Such a fight is hopeless until the adherents of religion either learn to think clearly or they all die out.

Would you like theists to die, Cris?

Would you like theists to die, Cris?Quite the opposite. It is religion that I would like to die so that its victims could be free to join the rest of us and help move our civilization into a far more enlightened place.

Define victim. And saviour.

Define victim. In this context someone who has been indoctrinated and convinced by others that a particular fantasy concept is an absolute truth.


And saviour.An atheist who has managed to convince a theist to doubt their indoctrination.

I'm with Cris. In fact I want a 'Cris' T-shirt.

Lol.

Should be a "probably\maybe" choice.

I started the thread because I knew that those atheists who are on a crusade would get defensive, which is always fun to watch.

That was rather obvious. I pointed out your hypocrisy in starting this thread with hostile and trollish intent, then posing as if you were the mature and thoughtful one.

saquist,

Most Atheist here aren't passive. Most have an agenda to fight a "holy war" of sorts and are extremely aggressive, prejudice, obstinate and unyielding-ly illogical about their quest.
In a figurative way they are out for blood with the intent to persecute and dominate those that do not share their particular out looks. The term Angry Atheist is a proper stereotype as can be seen by pulling up almost anything on evolution and Space on YouTube or in this particular "backyard" the common practice of hazing and bullying are permitted and encouraged despite the rules for "civility" that are posted and stickied in most threads. But since when is slinging vulgarities and bullying considered civil?Your tone here and language demonstrates your own biased crusade against atheists. Your wide ranging blanket statements are typical of someone holding a grudge towards a whole group, in the same way you accuse atheists. But in defence of sciforums I have tried a number of times to debate on other religious forums, and that is if I can get registered, usually I am not admitted once I admit on the aplication that I am atheist. That's OK but when I peruse their debates I see massive vilification of the atheist position but with no chance that anyone more informed can respond appropriately, such is the result of censorship, much like Colonel Gaddafi using his state TV. But when I can post I am overwhelmed with vast numbers of vitriolic replies - the atheist reactions to theists on this forum seem quite mild in comparison.

At least here theists can air their perspectives and attempt a defence against the atheist. Some of the more atheist miltant attitudes I see here seem more as a result of intense frustration that there appears no way to convince theists to think more clearly, and hence the human tendency to become increasingly angry. I have personally experienced those feelings and have let rip occasionally, even though that is extremly rare nowadays. I have come to accept that the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" seems so relevant to the atheist/theist debate. And here I feel qualified as I was a very active Christian some decades ago and did argue fiercely for the Christain perspective.

Ultimately the theist position is irrational and indefensible. There is and never has been any credible evidence for the existence of gods. The theist position at the end of any such discussion always reverts to the "I have received direct personal communication from God, so I know he exists", which of course cannot be verified and is indistinguishable from simple delusion. Delusion is quite concrete with extensive occureences, the alternative remains pure imaginative fantasy. How to make the theist see this is the route of atheist frustration and understandable millitancy.

saquist,
Your tone here and language demonstrates your own biased crusade against atheists. Your wide ranging blanket statements are typical of someone holding a grudge towards a whole group, in the same way you accuse atheists. But in defence of sciforums I have tried a number of times to debate on other religious forums, and that is if I can get registered, usually I am not admitted once I admit on the aplication that I am atheist. That's OK but when I peruse their debates I see massive vilification of the atheist position but with no chance that anyone more informed can respond appropriately, such is the result of censorship, much like Colonel Gaddafi using his state TV. But when I can post I am overwhelmed with vast numbers of vitriolic replies - the atheist reactions to theists on this forum seem quite mild in comparison.

At least here theists can air their perspectives and attempt a defence against the atheist. Some of the more atheist miltant attitudes I see here seem more as a result of intense frustration that there appears no way to convince theists to think more clearly, and hence the human tendency to become increasingly angry. I have personally experienced those feelings and have let rip occasionally, even though that is extremly rare nowadays. I have come to accept that the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" seems so relevant to the atheist/theist debate. And here I feel qualified as I was a very active Christian some decades ago and did argue fiercely for the Christain perspective.

Ultimately the theist position is irrational and indefensible. There is and never has been any credible evidence for the existence of gods. The theist position at the end of any such discussion always reverts to the "I have received direct personal communication from God, so I know he exists", which of course cannot be verified and is indistinguishable from simple delusion. Delusion is quite concrete with extensive occureences, the alternative remains pure imaginative fantasy. How to make the theist see this is the route of atheist frustration and understandable millitancy.

Not sure this is going to fit on one t-shirt :)

Not sure this is going to fit on one t-shirtOops - sorry.

Would you like theists to die, Cris?


Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

I have only compassion for you, Kellisness. Anyone who was compelled to believe this as well as "thou shall not kill", would be driven gradually insane. Making your brain follow two contradictory orders is what did it for HAL9000.

My crusade goes as far as attempting to destroy ignorance, reveal illogical and archaic practices and hope teach people about things that they support but know nothing about. If there was a call to arms for atheists I would be there, but if anything of the sort happened it would be a purely intellectual call to arms, as we have no hierarchical structure there are no tyrants at the top ordering the heads of theists to be brought to him. In the same way, the most well known voices of atheism are those of scientists, philosophers and television personalities, so we're hardly being lead by military personnel.

If by "here" you mean those that post on this religion sub-forum,

Negative.



And to be honest with you, the rest of your post just smacks of a whiney brat who feels put upon that their points are dismissed so easily, yet can't understand why.

I appreciate your candor but I really don't care how you perceive OR if you dismiss me. I'm completely apathetic to the colorful metaphors you chose to make use of. In fact, I do so much dismissing myself I can hardly blame you for it yourself. I just do it more objectively than most. (which is an understatement of epic proportions on this forum)


What you see as hazing or bullying is merely due to you not being able to accept the arguments against what you post.

or vise versa. (shrug)
Hazing is hazing though. On this forum it has a ritualistic quality (meaning extremely repetitive un-moderated harassments which defy forum rules.


In short - you're whining that you're not getting your own way: Wah wah wah.

I have never whined about getting my own way.
I traditionally don't harass the moderators with yours or others harasment because 1. I recognize the bias, 2. I really don't care. 3. It would be fruitless any.



If you dislike the treatment your posts get so much, why do you still bother?
:shrug:

Trial by Fire



saquist,
Your tone here and language demonstrates your own biased crusade against atheists.

That's a perception.
My function is to point out the facts and behaviors objectively even if you don't like it.


Your wide ranging blanket statements are typical of someone holding a grudge towards a whole group, in the same way you accuse atheists.

Generalities and Sterotypes are almost always true for a reason. Properly using them means not applying them to individuals or using them in a derogatory fashion.


But in defence of sciforums I have tried a number of times to debate on other religious forums, and that is if I can get registered, usually I am not admitted once I admit on the aplication that I am atheist.

That's because of the atheist reputation for being dogmatic, aggressive and what I can only describe as arrogant and foul. I would personally give you a chance...I'd give everyone a chance but you can't really blame them for flinching when they've been hit over and over and over and over. I'd suggest making friends like River-wind does and getting an endorsement from one of the members.


That's OK but when I peruse their debates I see massive vilification of the atheist position but with no chance that anyone more informed can respond appropriately,

It's the same thing here just the other side of the extremist fense.
I originally joined for the Star Wars Star Trek debate but I have a large interest of science as well. I merely disappointed at the extremism but I quickly got used to it and it's taught me an immeasurable amount about atheist, what they believe, and they're behavioral tendencies. It was also here that I cultivated an interest for logical deduction. Once I realized there was an objective method for debate in the form of rules I read and studied everything I could and committed them to memory.


But when I can post I am overwhelmed with vast numbers of vitriolic replies - the atheist reactions to theists on this forum seem quite mild in comparison.

Disappointing...isn't it.
Yet I cannot conscious-ably condone either.


At least here theists can air their perspectives and attempt a defence against the atheist. Some of the more atheist miltant attitudes I see here seem more as a result of intense frustration that there appears no way to convince theists to think more clearly, and hence the human tendency to become increasingly angry.



I have personally experienced those feelings and have let rip occasionally, even though that is extremly rare nowadays. I have come to accept that the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" seems so relevant to the atheist/theist debate. And here I feel qualified as I was a very active Christian some decades ago and did argue fiercely for the Christain perspective.

When I first got here I allowed emotionalism to over take me within debate but I found it led to errors and it's apart of my principles to admit to those mistakes (which I found was not an entirely bad feeling) yet it revealed flaws in my thinking, being here has served a purpose in mending those flaws and strengthening my shields and apathy against the emotion others use to justify their position. I let go of the desire for reputation and to goaded by peer pressure to which I'm now immune. It was always my agenda to seek to remove myself from the 80 percentile. The percentage of people that standby and watch while injustice happens instead of acting upon it. As a result I move more swiftly in favor of injustice rather than become a clone/slave to popularity and social pressure of the mob mentality.

It doesn't bother me to listen to common flaws of theist.
I know they are often true but I remember they aren't a necessary truth. It doesn't like wise bother me to dictate the flaws of atheist. They are not a necessary truth either.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

I have only compassion for you, Kellisness. Anyone who was compelled to believe this as well as "thou shall not kill", would be driven gradually insane. Making your brain follow two contradictory orders is what did it for HAL9000.

I'm not even a christian you idiot.

I'm not even a christian you idiot.

You are a Consciousnesser.

Hazing is hazing though. On this forum it has a ritualistic quality (meaning extremely repetitive un-moderated harassments which defy forum rules. Care to cite an example, given that this is a fairly serious accusation.


I traditionally don't harass the moderators with yours or others harasment because 1. I recognize the bias, 2. I really don't care. 3. It would be fruitless any. First, I would hope you don't harass the moderators.
Secondly, I would appreciate some evidence to support your accusation of my harassment.


Trial by FireYet you complain about the burning, and refer to it as harassment. Go figure.

I'm not even a christian you idiot.

Then you are an atheist with regard to the Christian God.

Brahman dreams us all, our soap operas, our lives… We are his consciousness…

We can learn this from the Advaita Vedanta; however, the dream notion, if it be held, must be carried through and through, and, so, If so, the old Indian dream writings on dream paper cannot be seen as real or meaningful ideas when other dream writings on dream papers are not, for all of these would be but writ on water with the feathery quill of smoke and fog.

You are a Consciousnesser.

You're a pensioner.

Not all theists are on a crusade.
Except for you, of course.

Troll. :bugeye:

If so, tell us about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

im pretty sure theists got crusades down to a T

A lot of atheists are on a crusade. That's just one of the major similarities between them and religious fundies.

Except for you, of course.

Troll. :bugeye:

You're a troll.

A lot of atheists are on a crusade. That's just one of the major similarities between them and religious fundies.

And environmentalists, Democrats, Republicans, union organizers, animal rights activists, women's rights advocates, civil rights advocates, anti-shoe campaigners, various independence movements, socialists, communists, fascists, anarchists...

I started the thread because I knew that those atheists who are on a crusade would get defensive, which is always fun to watch.
Troll.

If so, tell us about it.

Well, rest assured that even if Atheists are on a crusade, it will be much less violent than when the Christians did. :rolleyes:

Troll.
Kellish is the troll king lol.



Well, rest assured that even if Atheists are on a crusade, it will be much less violent than when the Christians did. :rolleyes:

Atheists use the 'Sword of Logic' to slice and dice their penchant for delusion.

There is a loud and vocal group misrepresenting both sides. As a theist (Christian), I am not on a crusade, but will state my beliefs. I support anyone else's right to believe otherwise (without suppressing any compulsion to say that they're headed for hellfire and damnation. LOL!)

I have atheist friends who support me in my beliefs but are not the type to be swayed by a lack of proof or strong evidence.

The 'crusaders" do not represent me or my beliefs as a Christian. My faith proves nothing scientific. My faith in God doesn't hurt anyone and I try to keep it that way (but I'm human and am fallible.)

A belief or theorem in the unproven is the only way to further knowledge. So I also don't think that my faith is unscientific, it's just unproven (but perhaps not unprovable in the future.)

If you aren't on a crusade, then you must be sociopathic, or you don't really believe it. Why wouldn't you care if people are heading for hell?

I wouldn't consider myself an atheist nor a theist, but I do feel the question applied to me because I have a huge theological problem with the methodogy of 99% of the theists. If anything, I'm probably somewhere along the lines of an atheist-leaning-agnostic who doesn't know or care either way if God exists. And I question anyone that says they do know for a fact. I do care that so many people believe that it is a FACT that God does or doesn't exist, instead of realizing that it is unproven on both sides of the argument and that they don't accept the possibility that they may be wrong.

Anywho, in summary, I voted yes for myself because I am very intelligent when in reference to the bible and I LOVE challenging Christians. Seems I often know more than they do about their own texts.

If you aren't on a crusade, then you must be sociopathic, or you don't really believe it. Why wouldn't you care if people are heading for hell?

That's the difference between you and Fauxtoegraft. You can't conceive of the idea of having a view and not being on a crusade. To you, it's all the same thing. It's people like you, you know, the ones who "care", that are the real crusaders. When atheists talk about the islamic and christian crusades, they are totally missing the point which is that they weren't about religion. They were about control and power over others. Something which you crave, no doubt.

Right, and the Civil War wasn't about slavery.

If you really cared about people, you might want to inform them about things you feel are correct. That is no vice.

Spidergoat, do you actually believe that religious crusades are about religion? No no, religion is the tool used for control. As for informing people about things you feel are correct, go ahead, but no one likes to be preached at, and that's ultimately what you want to do. You call it "informing". Quaint.

Spidergoat, do you actually believe that religious crusades are about religion? No no, religion is the tool used for control.

Woah! Um.... you may want to study up on the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

If you think crusades (wars) fought in the name of religion aren't about the religion themselves, you might want to rethink that. Read a book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

No, you need a rethink. And you're on a crusade.

No, you need a rethink. And you're on a crusade.

You're damn right I'm on a crusade... to expunge idiocy from society.

Oh look, an admission. What refreshing honesty.

Oh look, an admission. What refreshing honesty.

Read post #86

Right, and the Civil War wasn't about slavery.

If you really cared about people, you might want to inform them about things you feel are correct. That is no vice.

The Civil war was not about slavery Spidy. It was about separation of the Union . True Slavery played a big roll and was a positive out come , but it was more about Separation of the union . The White Man in the North was a nasty little nasty when it came to equal rights . Consider how the Irish were treated back then. Considered inferior. Those Protestants thought they were so much better than everyone else

I am on a crusade. To change every thing . Yeah that is my special little crusade. First topple the monetary system

The White Man in the North was a nasty little nasty when it came to equal rights .

You are hearby awarded the prize of The Most Unintellectual Sentence Said All Day. Congratulations.

Originally Posted by spidergoat
If you aren't on a crusade, then you must be sociopathic, or you don't really believe it. Why wouldn't you care if people are heading for hell?That's the difference between you and Fauxtoegraft. You can't conceive of the idea of having a view and not being on a crusade. To you, it's all the same thing. It's people like you, you know, the ones who "care", that are the real crusaders. When atheists talk about the islamic and christian crusades, they are totally missing the point which is that they weren't about religion. They were about control and power over others. Something which you crave, no doubt.

spidergoat actually makes a good point here. The Bible clearly teaches that many people will be going to hell. It also clearly teaches that every Christian should try to save as many as possible (obviously it is ultimately God that does the saving, but a Christian is supposed to be one of the tools that he uses). So it could be argued that any Christian who doesn't actively share their faith either doesn't really give a shit about who's going to go down with the ship, or doesn't really believe that anyone really is going to go down with it. In either case, how can the person in question be considered a true Christian?

Not everyone is a Christian of course. But if those who claim that their knowledge of God is derived from scripture feel that they can pick and choose from that scripture, what does that say about the integrity of that scripture? If scripture is not infallible, or even if it is widely open to interpretation, how can we be certain of the truth of anything that is proclaimed therein? What consequence is there anymore for not believing in God at all? None? Good. Faith in God, then, is just something that many people feel enriches their lives and atheists can choose to enrich their lives in other ways. Everyone's happy.

The problem we have in these forums however is that there are so many different kinds of theists that it's almost impossible to know what you've come up against. One minute it's Christian fundamentalism, the next minute it's some kind of random ill-defined deism and the next it's a claim that they are all essentially the same thing. It's an ever moving target. But often you all tend to band together in spite of the fact that so many of you don't even agree with each other. Collectively, then, you form a malleable blob of non-specificity that is impossible to define and therefore impossible to accurately address. Indeed, some of you may even believe that this is exactly what God is, and that that's the whole point. In any case, atheists often have to resort to taking stabs in the dark in order to get some interesting discussion going and will almost invariably offend someone in the process.

I'm not complaining about any of this. If I didn't enjoy the discussion I wouldn't participate. I'm happy to grapple with the aforementioned blob of theism. But I think it's important for theists to understand what this forum looks like to an atheist, and why we are sometimes way off the mark with our commentary. We always hit someone, but it's the 10 people we missed who get their knickers in a twist over it.

Spidergoat, do you actually believe that religious crusades are about religion? No no, religion is the tool used for control. As for informing people about things you feel are correct, go ahead, but no one likes to be preached at, and that's ultimately what you want to do. You call it "informing". Quaint.
I think to discount the role of religion in inspiring people to capture the holy city of Jerusalem is foolish.


The Civil war was not about slavery Spidy. It was about separation of the Union . True Slavery played a big roll and was a positive out come , but it was more about Separation of the union . The White Man in the North was a nasty little nasty when it came to equal rights . Consider how the Irish were treated back then. Considered inferior. Those Protestants thought they were so much better than everyone else
It is known from primary sources that the issue was slavery. Read this:

The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The "Great Truth" about the "Lost Cause" (http://www.amazon.com/Confederate-Neo-Confederate-Reader-Great-Truth/dp/1604732180)

Spidergoat, if you wanted power and control, you'd use whatever tools at your disposal to attain it. If you wanted people to fight wars on your behalf, those people would need a motivation, something powerful. Religion can and has been used in that way. If you think about it, most religious people are pretty peaceful, and yet look at how many wars there have been and still are over religion. It doesn't make any sense. Religions have always been used as tools for power and control. I believe in god but I would never get involved in anything like that because I don't belong to any religious "tribe", as it were. It's very easy to manipulate religious people into playing down the peaceful aspects of their religion and artificially emphasising the not so peaceful aspects. Israel / Palestine is the part of the world where Jesus lived and taught (I don't believe this myself but many do) and yet it is also a place of mass long term conflict. That's how easy it is to manipulate people. Religion isn't the problem, it's the fact that it can be manipulated, and so it is.

Take any religion. For the most part, it is the "good" things in it that attract people to it (ie be good, love others, etc etc etc). Wars are not built on those things. They can't be, it doesn't work. They're built on the tribal / identity / cultural aspects that can so easily be played up. Look at how football hooligans behave. Yet it's not about football.

Why can religion be used in this way? I suggest because it conditions people to accept things on faith, and by authority, rather than by evidence.

Religion also divides humanity into believers and unbelievers, and so it reinforces the tribal aspects of humanity, even if the tribe is not an ethnic group.

Let me ask you this, if you believe in God, but not organized religion, where do your values come from?

Why Religion Should Be Confronted (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/why-religion-should-be-co_b_775163.html)

Spidergoat, look around. We live in a world where most people take a lot of things on faith and on authority.

If an individual wants to follow a religion because they feel that it will help them to be more moral, or simply because they agree with its principles, there's nothing wrong with that. Actually it's a good thing.

Just as all countries have negative aspects to their history and culture, as well as positive things, so do religions. And all religions feature the promotion of morals and positive principles. No war can ever result from that. You can't create a bad thing out of good things.

My values come from myself. Religion isn't necessary. But it benefits many.

If so, tell us about it.

I wasn't, but since I met Kellish . . .

You didn't meet me.

Spider,

where do your values come from?

jan.

You didn't meet me.

ever heard the term "met online".

Yes.

Spider,

where do your values come from?

jan.

Bushido.

Bushido.

I am very happy with this answer, despite the fact that it, like the 10 commandments, isn't exactly a fully realised system of values.

Yes.

So there you go, or does it require more formal an introduction?

Bushido.

What is Bushido?

jan.

No, you need a rethink. And you're on a crusade.

again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

post any evidence or proof you might have of your claim

atheism is on the rise not because of a crusade because the younger generation is reading the bible and realising how much bullshit is actually in it. has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with a crusade.. do you see atheist outside with bullhorns all over the place spewing bullcrap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMamgtY6Po4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6V9hiAJsbM
uh oh wait for it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orKJyfeN1EU
religious got KO'd

Sirfreak can you justify your subscription to "athiesm"? Are you really any different from religious nutjobs? Athiesm is the belief that god does not exist. Religious people hold the belief that god does exist. Neither can be proven and both require faith. Who cares, agnostic athiesm makes more sense.

http://www.the-atheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/atheismmakessense.jpg

"Athiesm on the rise" is a stupid comment, surely once you re-read it, you will understand why.

Comparing athiesm to religion (I dont know how bible equates with religion but okay) is meaningless.

Well, then what is the basic stuff made of?

What is Bushido?

jan.

Don't have google? It's the code of the Samurai. The way of the warrior.

But it's a joke. I decide my own values, which roughly coincide with liberal/ democratic values. Much of it comes from literature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMamgtY6Po4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6V9hiAJsbM
uh oh wait for it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orKJyfeN1EU
religious got KO'd

I'm glad we don't have too many of those where I'm at. The last time I came across one in close proximity was a few years back when a bunch of friends and I went out to celebrate my ex's birthday. There was 3 people standing on the corner of an intersection in what we call "the strip" - an area known for it's bars. Originally, my intentions were simple to ignore them and walk past. Then, the female of the group called me a sinner and a fag (I was holding hands with my ex). So, I took that as a challenge.

After about 10 minutes, I literally left two of them crying in confusion after I had thrown out in the open all of their bibles contraditions (at least the ones I could remember at the time) and asked for an explination. I touched on everything from the two contraditing creation stories, to the historical meanings of the verses in Romans that prohibited man lying with man (and how they were more likely meant not to ban homosexuality but to enfore procreation due to the population crisis at the time in the region), to the ignorance of believing in a walking, talking serpent, and to the immorality and intolerance of their God, according to the Bible. There was much more that I brought up. And with all my questions and all my demands for an explination, the one answer that they repeated was, "Who are we to try to understand God's ways?"

And of course I then called out their hypocrisy of how they were on the corner preaching the "will of God" and then later admitted that they don't understand God. That one stopped them in their tracks. The girl started crying, I imagine due to the struggles of trying to believe her own faith in the midst of logical reasoning. And soon the shorter of the two males began crying because. I asked why he cried and he stated "because I don't have all the answers and you're accusing me that I do. It's not right". I merely replied that "Your the one that said you had all the answers and that they were in that book" (pointing as the bible in his hand).

I do wish there were more Jesus freaks here. I don't enjoy making any of them cry because I don't wish suffering even on my worst enemy. But I will call them out if they are being hypocritical.

The only other time I've had an experience similar to that was about 5 years ago when I encountered about a hundred of them rallying in front of an abortion clinic (which was right next to my bank). I attempted to have a civil conversation with them but as soon as I brought up a legitimate point, I was quickly dulled out by abnoxiously loud and off-key singing of hymns. They refused to talk, of course.

Sirfreak can you justify your subscription to "athiesm"? Are you really any different from religious nutjobs? Athiesm is the belief that god does not exist. Religious people hold the belief that god does exist. Neither can be proven and both require faith. Who cares, agnostic athiesm makes more sense.

http://www.the-atheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/atheismmakessense.jpg

"Athiesm on the rise" is a stupid comment, surely once you re-read it, you will understand why.

Comparing athiesm to religion (I dont know how bible equates with religion but okay) is meaningless.

We can play that game too.

http://www.kellerpickem.com/4chan/christianity.jpg

I am not a christian and that is pretty funny. I don't believe in organized religion just that there is a god. But than again, If you would have read my post you would have known that.

Why can religion be used in this way? I suggest because it conditions people to accept things on faith, and by authority, rather than by evidence.

Religion also divides humanity into believers and unbelievers, and so it reinforces the tribal aspects of humanity, even if the tribe is not an ethnic group.

Let me ask you this, if you believe in God, but not organized religion, where do your values come from?
I think you have faith and don't know it. I have faith my eye will blink when my eye ball needs moisture. How boat you. Sometimes I do become self conscience about blinking and have doubt. I hate that . It is very uncomfortable when it happens it can take awhile to regain faith that my body will blink at an appropriate interval. So I prefer to live by faith. I think maybe you at least try to live by faith . I know your autistic tendencies might make you question general movement in it self , so if that has any validity I am here for you buddy. You were meant to be here just like we sing in the song . It all clear, You were meant to be here, from the beginning

That ATHEISM quote just shows complete ignorance. First of all, atheism has nothing to do with the origin of the universe.


The belief that there was nothing...
Any atheist who has thought about it probably doesn't believe there was NOTHING at the beginning. I certainly don't.


....and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs!
This bit is what research has shown us. Apart from it wasn't magic and there was a reason.

I am not a christian and that is pretty funny. I don't believe in organized religion just that there is a god. But than again, If you would have read my post you would have known that.

:confused:

I never said you were a Christian, though it was apparent that you believe in God. If it makes you feel better, here's another... (not that it applies to you).

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/cheecherdogg/thm_phpZbhV6L.jpg

I think you have faith and don't know it. I have faith my eye will blink when my eye ball needs moisture. How boat you. Sometimes I do become self conscience about blinking and have doubt. I hate that . It is very uncomfortable when it happens it can take awhile to regain faith that my body will blink at an appropriate interval. So I prefer to live by faith. I think maybe you at least try to live by faith . I know your autistic tendencies might make you question general movement in it self , so if that has any validity I am here for you buddy. You were meant to be here just like we sing in the song . It all clear, You were meant to be here, from the beginning

I don't have to have faith in blinking because I almost never think about it. As a matter of fact, I have very little faith in my body to operate properly, due to allergies and other health problems.