Alright folks, this is a little bit more conceptual than many of things being discussed lately. But something I think to be of critical importance.

Stolen from the weezer.com message boards:
http://www.weezer.com/bboard/musical/1350709_flat.html
"Rather then get involved in one of those other threads about music, melodies etc. I'll post my question here:

At what point does sound become music?

I mean, if I went out and recorded ambient noise, like of a city street or something, some people would consider that 'music'... so maybe people should define their terms as what 'music' is before they get all persnickity about what someone else calls music.

When essays are written, it is customary to define key terms before getting into the whole argument thing.

Just a thought."

I think this is a great topic, even though it's not my own - I had to post it.

My personal opinion is all sound is a form of music in one way or another. Anything natural, or pure qualifies for me. What doesn't deserve this label - ironically - is overcomplicated metal type song which become more about making static noise, and less about rythmic formula.(IMO)

Almost a mathematic thing to me. I always imagined there was some kind of a formula for beautiful music, and that it coincided with some universal equation for truth.

That depends. Idealistically, any sound any person can enjoy can be music. Like the sound of a baby giggling can be "like music to my ears".

But overcomplicated metal-music can also, while mostly resembling noise to some people, be highly inspiring and energetic for some people. So why defer this as not being music because some people "don't get it". After all, music is a label constructed by people, so it can also be just as uniqually interpreted as these people are.

I think to answer this question you'll have to go back to the roots of music, the first tunes played by the Neandarthals.
It can be seen in modern African tribes. The music they play is mainly comprised of just screams and beat. In my opinion, beat is what organizes sounds and voices into music.

Take the modern trance, techno and rap, for example. It is considered to be music by many people, though most of the songs cannot be transcribed into notes and some of them don't even have melody. They are, however, considered as "songs". That could only be because of one thing, which is the beat.

When it becomes groovy :cool:

At the Amygdalia, deep within the brain.

Music is sound. :bugeye: When it comes down to it, there is no discrimnation within sound. Just which ones that people prefer to hear, then you get something called "music".

I think the question here might be "When does noise become music?" as well, because noise is defined as something unpleasant. So when does this collection of undesired sound become befitting "music" to more than just one person?

Sound becomes music when arranged in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

The typical sound of waves some people listen to when sleeping may be aesthetic and pleasing, but it is not music.

Music is sound. When it comes down to it, there is no discrimnation within sound. Just which ones that people prefer to hear, then you get something called "music".

You people greatly underappreciate a little somethin' called THE DICTIONARY

a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony

It is possible to have a debate off of this definition on whether or not something specific is "music". However, according to the English language, all sound is not music!

Of course, the dictionary can be a very valuable tool. Especially when trying to dissect a specific definition. It's always useful to define something first, before you tear it to shreds. The unfortunate thing is that the definition of 'music' has not been done any justice, IMO.

But even by your dictionary definition, even the most loosely of connected compositions (ie streetnoise) can be considered music. Even the crappiest of sounds. That's why I like to consider music more of a continuum. Not to nitpick...

My problem with that, is that we could consider all life a form of human. Some animals are less human then others. And so on, until it doesn't make any sense, and even humans
are considered music. And maybe, by chance, music is the purest thing of all, because, as others have mentioned in this thread, such as Weiser, and Gerbile, it all boils down to something called rythm . And as you know, the Universe itself contains it's own unique of the unique rythms ever created. Matter has a rythm we don't yet understand, and people are stilllll trying to explain the concept of. That's why I emphasize purity in defining music, because the less 'static' you have, the greater a connection to our 'existence' you'll attain.

Sound like I'm bull--shitting you yet?? I probably am since this argument has little foundation. But read on.


One of the biggest arguments this raises is that rythm is central to existance. (Yeah, I know I've already mentioned this). We call rythm in humans homeostasis.) Getting out of rythm lands you in something called cancer, or other manifestions of your weakest links. Rythm in nature...the four season, the harvest --reminding me of a great, and oh so true quote by the infamous Edgar Cayce 'An apple a day will not keep the doctor away...no! Rather an almond a day will. Remember, the almond bloomed when everything else died! That is life.'.

In all my studies, I've found one simple thing that eludes progression in humanity. That is, we haven't been able to integrate things like music into understanding the world around us. Even the most basic of principles that play such a pivotal role get ignored. Take for example human health. With all these crazy diets floating around, people still cannot understand the concept of balance and the proper flow of energy throughout the ecosystem. Things like quantum mechanics and calculus are hyped up bullshit because they only take in the illusiary qualities of matter. Now, I'm not dissing these things, as they've been amazingly important lately. But remember, Calculus will NEVER be able to explain our surroundings. We can't even really explain the concept of positive and negative charges with out opening up a whole new bucket of worms.

Anyways, I'm probably gettting overly philosophical. But I think I've added new flame to the fire, because I started by asking at what point does sound become music, and I guess I'm not even confining the boundaries of 'sound' anymore.

You're all free to respond however you like. Just be open-minded to this here crackpot. :)

Yawn... rhythm and melody...

Rhythm... The time line.…
Melody the emotional plot..

Music is melody… The abstraction of the human state…. A way for mob communication…

Who feels alone on the crest of melody??

The greatest leaders use their voices to enchant the masses…

Music is the original form of mass communication…

Music is language…

I would even go further and say that we could maybe create music for other social animals.. Chimps, Dogs, Dolphins.

MTV has shown us that music is more then sound… Images affect music… Imagine the smell of blood on a hard core punk chant.. The salty taste of tears on a love song…


Music is communication…Music is easy…

When all sound frequencies clash together to become noise, then when noise frequencies clash together in a maelstrom of resenots,

...rythmic formula I agree! I'd say sound becomes music when there is a pattern, i.e. even a drum alone, beating every 4 seconds would be music (imo). To analyse this definition however just highlights a human need for some kind of structure, i.e. a link to time is needed for the rhythm of music and I would say that Humankind would only class sound as music if there is some intelligent construction behind it, i.e. there is a need for human construction, a rhythm being beaten out in the background with other constructed sounds over the top.

Sound becomes music when you can't shake it from your mind.

"At what point does sound become music?"

When it exhibits a recognizable <b>STRUCTURE</b>: Tonal center...repetition. There is movement in the tones of a scale which lead the ear, too. Music can induce an emotional response--it makes you feel. ;)

Okay...


So I guess I'm taking this whole topic a bit too far with these universal theories - and believe me cause I'm posting at the only common sense time of the day -6:30. I'll settle for the whole structure and melody and rythm thing. Good enough for me at these hours.

And BTW, I'm not a morning person. I'll have probably changed my mind by the afternoon.

The theory of music is very cool. It's study and understanding sometimes takes years. Good topic, Elbaz. <img src = "http://www.sciforums.com/images/icons/icon14.gif">

Elbaz maybe you should read up about the different scales :) I used to be very avid about playing the guitar and read a few books about basic music theory. The western scales are completly different to the eastern ones and this is why oriental music sounds so different say American.