I have created the thread VB Strong A.I. Project too but i got rather bored with people thinking that a dictionary is AI so i will create this one instead.

I believe you are all familiare with the workings within the CyCorp ?
How many of you think that is AI? I guess many of you do, many more experienced AI developers think so.

What the CyCorp (roughly) is that they are giving their ALF a bunch of words and some grammar knowledge. They make sure it has precisly enough information to "intelligently" answer a particular question. Is this AI i ask you?
The answer is No, it is not AI. If they were to start it with NO data then it would be AI. "But that is impossible" many tell me.
Well, of course it is impossible, otherwise normal mortals could solve it.


I hope all of you have seen a simulation of a bird flock started with a handfull of parameters. (etc velocity, distance to walls, distance to other bird(s) )
If you have not seen one, then do so.
Is that AI? No, it is not AI becuase it has no real reason to be intelligent. By simply following parameters intelligence is not born. The parameters should be a assistance to intelligence. (i am rather known for vague explenations :D )


The ability to speak is indeed important but i have solved it.
In The Republic (our Artificial world for our artificial lifeforms (or ALF's) (named after Plato's book "The Republic") ) we start our Artificial Lifeforms with simply 5 parameters (ill not say which here), a goal (obtain food, wood, water). The database is completely empty. The Code of course does not tell it anything.
These 5 parameters cover the sensories of Vision and Touch. Audio is of course also integrated but as it develops the human language i am not sure at this point if one more will be neccesary or not.

You might think it is a trivial task to understand how to use an Axe but it is not. (yeah, i forgot. The data on how to use certain items does not exist either).
So, how do you understand that the wooden handle on the Axe really is the wooden handle and that the sharp, metal cutting tool should be swung ? ? ?
I think the answer is, that is impossible If the AI is started without any data. But, i have solved it ladies and gentelmen.
Even if it is rather simple how to use a Axe with my complex system and DB the Bow is still rather difficult since it really makes no sense to fire the arrow. But my system includes that aswell.
I guess i am boring you with this data, most are interested in the ability of speech. Well, i have solved that too. By interacting with the "real" world it will gain some data.
Empricial Parameter is set to 3. So if 3 things suggest something (and of course if zero things can counter it) then it is true. This value is of course dynamic and as data suggests that this value is inaccurate the ALF can change it for the better.
Well, if it has a question such as "What color is a Blue Ball?" and has 2 previous questions that suggests that if "What" and "?" is in the same question then "is" is "=". "a" = "1". "color", "Blue", "Ball" are already sorted out by the DB system.
The grammar suggested above is of course not true in every case but remember that it has a Empicial value of 3 so it will take it about 3000 questions before it has gotten most of our grammar right. Then it can talk, it can relate to data from the virtual (or real) world.

So, is this AI? I sure think so. Instead of giving it the data neccesary and then asking it "friendly" questions (which it of course can answer) we are giving it no data and giving it questions which it cannot answer, just so that it can learn from it.

Yes, i have removed some crucial information so that i won't have any opposition. But i will gladly provide the information to anyone who mails me.

I have created the thread VB Strong A.I. Project too but i got rather bored with people thinking that a dictionary is AI so i will create this one instead.

I believe you are all familiare with the workings within the CyCorp ?
How many of you think that is AI? I guess many of you do, many more experienced AI developers think so.

What the CyCorp (roughly) is that they are giving their ALF a bunch of words and some grammar knowledge. They make sure it has precisly enough information to "intelligently" answer a particular question. Is this AI i ask you?
The answer is No, it is not AI. If they were to start it with NO data then it would be AI. "But that is impossible" many tell me.
Well, of course it is impossible, otherwise normal mortals could solve it.


I hope all of you have seen a simulation of a bird flock started with a handfull of parameters. (etc velocity, distance to walls, distance to other bird(s) )
If you have not seen one, then do so.
Is that AI? No, it is not AI becuase it has no real reason to be intelligent. By simply following parameters intelligence is not born. The parameters should be a assistance to intelligence. (i am rather known for vague explenations :D
)


The ability to speak is indeed important but i have solved it.
In The Republic (our Artificial world for our artificial lifeforms (or ALF's) (named after Plato's book "The Republic") ) we start our Artificial Lifeforms with simply 5 parameters (ill not say which here), a goal (obtain food, wood, water). The database is completely empty. The Code of course does not tell it anything.
These 5 parameters cover the sensories of Vision and Touch. Audio is of course also integrated but as it develops the human language i am not sure at this point if one more will be neccesary or not.

You might think it is a trivial task to understand how to use an Axe but it is not. (yeah, i forgot. The data on how to use certain items does not exist either).
So, how do you understand that the wooden handle on the Axe really is the wooden handle and that the sharp, metal cutting tool should be swung ? ? ?
I think the answer is, that is impossible If the AI is started without any data. But, i have solved it ladies and gentelmen.
Even if it is rather simple how to use a Axe with my complex system and DB the Bow is still rather difficult since it really makes no sense to fire the arrow. But my system includes that aswell.
I guess i am boring you with this data, most are interested in the ability of speech. Well, i have solved that too. By interacting with the "real" world it will gain some data.
Empricial Parameter is set to 3. So if 3 things suggest something (and of course if zero things can counter it) then it is true. This value is of course dynamic and as data suggests that this value is inaccurate the ALF can change it for the better.
Well, if it has a question such as "What color is a Blue Ball?" and has 2 previous questions that suggests that if "What" and "?" is in the same question then "is" is "=". "a" = "1". "color", "Blue", "Ball" are already sorted out by the DB system.
The grammar suggested above is of course not true in every case but remember that it has a Empicial value of 3 so it will take it about 3000 questions before it has gotten most of our grammar right. Then it can talk, it can relate to data from the virtual (or real) world.

So, is this AI? I sure think so. Instead of giving it the data neccesary and then asking it "friendly" questions (which it of course can answer) we are giving it no data and giving it questions which it cannot answer, just so that it can learn from it.

Yes, i have removed some crucial information so that i won't have any opposition. But i will gladly provide the information to anyone who mails me.

We at SC & W Labs are looking for :

A Neural Net programmer (preferebly 30+)
A Mathematics and Physics bachlor (or higher) who can help us with Physical Enumerations and matemathics for our Fiscal Value and Exponential Fiscal Value Algorithms
Anyone who consider himself/herself to be truely intelligent (not school grades), true intelligence (the ability to think outside the box


Mail me Rikard Svensson, CEO of SC & W Labs at svenssonrikard@spray.se

maybe i should had said. Any detailed data you might be interested in will not be disclosed here.

Anyone at all ?

Is that AI? No, it is not...

There is no general agreement on the definition of AI. Many researchers are already tired of the endless discussions about what is and what isn’t AI (/who has a "better" definition). The more interesting question is how to design systems which would be able to solve complex real world problems. And that question cannot be well answered briefly.

"if it has a question such as "What color is a Blue Ball?" and has 2 previous questions that suggests that if "What" and "?" is in the same question then "is" is "=". "a" = "1". "color", "Blue", "Ball" are already sorted out by the DB system."

Just code it. I really believe it will do more for you at this point than long discussions with people who already played with this kind of stuff.

They make sure it has precisly enough information to "intelligently" answer a particular question. Is this AI i ask you?
The answer is No, it is not AI. If they were to start it with NO data then it would be AI. "But that is impossible" many tell me.

Have you heard of Chineese Room Argument,with relation to Turing Experiment?

bye!

yes.

But i have also read that many are leaving the field of AI because it was too hard for them. The ones that are left apperently invent things as the "Chinesse Room" because they cannot solve the real problem.

They are not even working on AI. If you think so then i think that the outcome of my AI would be better than a world dominated by man.

The reason, people are leaving the AI field is, they are teaching the monkey to speak, which will not happen in their life time or their grand childen's life time, unless someone genetically alters the monkey with genetic science.

The other reason is, people who have the disruptive idea do not meet with the people who have the money or computer power to build such a software.

:m: :D :m:
Baal Zebul../ Rikard Svensson:

Sorry to put cold water in your blood, but this does not
excatly sound like something new.

It just languale evolution simulation,
of how to evolve language in a population of
objects with no previous experience/data.
This is rather trivial now, as many reseatchers have
duplicated the work. But non the less is it true, and it is beeing done.
And I guess it can be seen as a form of very low REAL AI,
as it is built bottom up from nothing.
The agents simply learn form random interaction with each other and the enviroment. Forming a consensus of a comon conseptual language describing objects and their physical relations.

A good reference is:

Gregory M. Saunders and Jordan B. Pollack, (1996).
"The Evolution of Communication in Adaptive Agents"
In Technical Report GS-94-EVCOMM.Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence Research Department of Computer and Information Science The Ohio State University, USA (http://demo.cs.brandeis.edu/papers/evcommtr.pdf)

nah, not really.

If you ever can write an AI that can use an bow and some arrows without any knowledge of what it is nor how to use it then contact me.

The speech ability is not what the intelligence lies in, that is merely knowledge and identification.

But i have also read that many are leaving the field of AI because it was too hard for them. The ones that are left apperently invent things as the "Chinesse Room" because they cannot solve the real problem.
Baal Zeb,
But you would have to admit that Chineese Room Argument is logically correct,isnt it?As you just mentioned in your above post The speech ability is not what the intelligence lies in, that is merely knowledge and identification.,i would say that Some fact grounding is required.Chineese Room argument,doesnt hamper the growth of AI.It infact,shows a path that must be followed for any further research comes into the subject.Probably, our current approach isnt exactly correct? may be we need something more,some more theoritical facts in AI which can guide us in a correct way to develop AI,something like Newton's formula...
IMHO.
just some thoughts...
bye!

The reason, people are leaving the AI field is, they are teaching the monkey to speak, which will not happen in their life time or their grand childen's life time, unless someone genetically alters the monkey with genetic science.
Good analogy...Theoritical perspectives of AI can be considered as genetic science here...may they are in dire need of change...

bye!

yes, of course it needs to have everything translated to chineese in order to work. the goal-system could not be in english to function in chinesse for instance.
To that point i agree. But to give an ALF knowledge and grammar. That is not AI. Hope you agree with this atleast.

Yes.Very agreeeable.I hold the same opinion.As explained in this case of Chi Arg,you could have a translator program merely manipulating the strings to repond,which isnt exactly creating an AI.

bye!

If you start an AI with the ability to form any sentence, then you have gone to far.

A newborn child cannot talk.
Our AI is a newborn child. It cannot interact either but it uses a parameter based logic to solve these problems.

It of course uses references to learn grammar and new words, but atleast it has made those references by itself. If that is not AI, then we are niether intelligent.
Anything else is just a smart program.

The important thing i must say is,that a new born child relates his knowledge to the real world experiences and changes them accordingly,this gives weightage to concept of Neural Network...isnt it?

bye!

the visual neural net is trained by the sensory of touch.
The DB does not use NN, merely percentage data train the DB.
But the Visual NN and the other Sensories (such as Audio NN) train the DB.

does that make any sense at all?

When talking it relates the real world experience to the speech cortex and therefore evolves the ability to strengthen the empirical value in the entries.
If it is the other way around then it calculates the Fiscal Value and the trust for the one claiming it. If the ALF trusts him/her then it is probably true. Else it will add it as a entry in Economical Thinking and therefore add it to a list of items that needs investigation. The result from this investigation can raise or lower the trust (Fiscal Value) for a particullar person.

Not to fuzzy i hope.

I think the point of the Chinese room experiment is to illustrate that without a fundamental understanding of how intelligence in the mind works we cant ascertain whether a system is or is not intelligent. It demonstrates the short comings of the turing test. Testers can be fooled.
It also demonstrates that semantic understanding does not have to exist in a system for its to simulate a mind, yet postulates that to be a true AI, the system must have semantic understanding. This shows again that our understanding of the fundamental properties of intelligence is lacking.
I subscribe to the Strong AI philosophy and if a systems can demonstrate intelligent behavior then the system must have a semantic representation of its knowledge even though we cant explain how.
The Chinese room experiment is more an argument for and against sentience then AI and should be keep out of the AI arena.

Here is what i think "Intelligence does not come in paper-back".
The Chinese Room argument suggests that obtaining "alien" knowledge might be "impossible".
I am saying that my AI can do it but it needs to have the parameters in chinese too and since i lack knowledge in that particullar language i am choosing to build a ALF that can learn English without any start-up information.
I am not talking about any low-level AI like Exholio Neogenesis provided a link for. Where ALF's develop a natural language between eachother. I am talking about English.
But that is the simple part. How to make it understand how to use a axe on a tree, a bow and arrow when hunting a deer, how to use a bucket to transport water. Those tasks are impossible for other AI and it is the basis of mine.
It is also the basis of human intelligence.

I am not born with the ability to speak. I do not have a database of words and i do not have grammar. Why should AI have to?

If anyone disagrees with this then i do not see a very brigth future for the human race and Einstein was right when he said :
"There are two things that are static. The first is that the universe is constantly expanding, the second is human stupidity. And i am not sure that the universe is expanding"

Your AI must have some form of syntax or all you would have is a blank source file. "Intelligence does not come from paper-back" your source file being written on modern paper (a computer), ergo your program has no intelligence in your view. This is also the view of the Chinese room, that "Syntax by itself is neither constitutive of nor sufficient for semantics". It states that because all computers are based on Turing machines and that Turing machines use formal syntax that we should be very careful what we call intelligent, even if it acts like a human.

Of course I don't follow that line of reasoning.

Baal Zebul,
You said :
The Chinese Room argument suggests that obtaining "alien" knowledge might be "impossible".Which as i understand is either Wrong,or you dont have grasp of concept.It never makes any suggestions of any sort like obtaining some outside knowledge like chineese might be impossible.

Here's what is Chineese Argument all about :

assume that an AI system has been built out of rules that take in Human Language and Manipulate the words as "symbols" to create new "Symbols" that are then fed back to the interrogator outside the Turing's room.Now assume that interrogator is communicating in Chinese and inside the room is a human producing the correct chinese text as the answer returned to the interrogator,This System passes Turing Test,but since the Human who is manipulating the symbols doesnt understand the Chinese Language,they have no understanding whatsoever of the questions being asked by the interrogator,But he still passes the test?!Thus,Searle argued that even if a symbol manipulation programcould be created to pass the Turing test,it might well still not have true understanding pr grounding of facts about Chinese.

I dont know what are you trying to say?in all probabilities its different than what i have just mentioned.

One reason given for the difficult time that modern AI systems have in passing the Turing Test is that since these systems work with representation of reality in form of symbols,they often sidestep the issue of how to ground these symbols in reality.

Your program knows what is Abate in english and where to use it for replying and manipulation to make it look as if it was an intelligent reply,but does it know what exactly is Abate.Has it ever used Abate in real life to solve its problem etc...? that is where we become intelligent,grounding of facts to reality...
i hope i clarify my point...
Anyways a company to run for a 16 yr old can be too much dont you think?...;)

bye!

If you are concerned about the symbol grounding problem then you may want to read this article (http://www.goertzel.org/papers/PostEmbodiedAI_June7.htm). Related problems can be well solved.

I thought The Chinese Argument meant that a human could not understand chinese if put in a room with a chinese unless he speaks chinese And therefore neither would a ALF have to understand another human language (etc English) and could therefore be started with knowledge.
Well, even if it has just heard Abate then it will be able to log it as a synonym (for instance) to a word that it has already "used" in the real world.
New words does not suggest a new method. If it is a new method (unlike anything seen before) then it would investigate it.

Actually i have a couple of arguments myself. Ill put them on our website when i got time so that you can read them.

Hey, i might aswell be honest to 100%.

k, i have created a fascist AI. Some people cost more than they produce. The ALF would classify them as parasites and could for instance think that a tree is worth more to the world than a human and therefore choose to make a fire with human's as fuel instead of tree's.

Even worse than the Terminator movies, i have created a master of torture. It would know how much fire your arm (for instance) could take before collapsing.

Hey, not a very bright future we have since many of our race are parasites. I reckon that about 60% are forfeit.

Intelligence is the capacity to adapt to situations by applying knowledge. Therefore answering a question through pre-programmed literary knowledge IS a form of intelligence.

It seems like a common misconception these days is that artificial intelligence has to be defined by the ability to LEARN. Learning is only one form of intelligence.

yes, i agree with that. Intelligence does not exist if there is no knowledge. But the ALF should be able to obtain that information too.

They are telling it "When someone says Hello Then answer with How are you doing" (for instance).
But instead of putting it as a hardcoded source they are shifting its location to a database. If they honestly believe that any DB system will give them true intelligence well then they sure have a problem since my AI would probably be smarter than that.

Hey, i might aswell be honest to 100%.

k, i have created a fascist AI. Some people cost more than they produce. The ALF would classify them as parasites and could for instance think that a tree is worth more to the world than a human and therefore choose to make a fire with human's as fuel instead of tree's.

Even worse than the Terminator movies, i have created a master of torture. It would know how much fire your arm (for instance) could take before collapsing.

Hey, not a very bright future we have since many of our race are parasites. I reckon that about 60% are forfeit.

I see the highest value in satisfied needs and great feelings. Potential related conflicts can be well solved. It's well possible that at one point, all people will become parasites by your definition. People do not necessarily need to be productive from the economical point of view when there are other good solutions. Great feelings for us and hard work for machines - wouldn't that be a better future scenario than your fascist AI? Machines do not mind to work hard. They just perform tasks they are designed for and they will be eventually better in all kinds of work than humans so it will not make sense for us to do something we do not enjoy. Even now, not all people need to produce "more" than they "cost" regardless of how you define the product and costs. For example my wife does not need to work because I make enough and I enjoy my job most of the time. Someone may classify her as a parasite but who cares. We are just a happy and well functional family - that's the point. I believe that the future of mankind will likely be very different than what you have described and what many AI movies show.

:m: :D :m:
You seem like an unfortunate person, with little or no understanding of AI,
totaly selfconsumed in this makebelieve world of yours,
I have absolutely no faight in your so-called discovery, I think most people
that sees your postings think youre a real jerk. So popp out of it, and give us a break. In other words, stop posting, or post something interesting
for a change, and no more of this luny crap-.Grow up or get a girlfriend.
The only interesting thing here is the toppic. Real/strong AI.
So you get one point for that.

first. Jiri...

You believe that i think in the same manner as you do. You believe that i reckon that value is only calculated in $$$ only because you have not thought about it any further than to that point yourself.
But no, money is not the only integer in the calculation.
How much harm do you cause the ozon layer? How many animals do you harm? How do you effect the eco-system?

It will be controlled by parameters. The ALF has the ability to create its own parameters as long as it has the parameter Empirical at start-up or have it hardcoded but i prefer to have it dynamic.

Jiri, we can discuss this further in our mails.


Exholio Neogenesis,

haha, yes i hope that people think that i am a jerk because otherwise they would not be very intelligent.
True, i live in my own world. I am asocial, i suffer from narcissism, i am rather confident.
And no, i have little understanding of the AI of mere mortals. I see no interest in respecting the text of lesser humans.

You should also know that i am sending the AI data to anyone who wants it.
But i doubt that you will messure up because by living in "my own world", i have the ability to observe humans at "distance". Therefore i have had the ability to develop certain techniques of communicating. Small tricks you might call them.
One of them is to piss off persons. If i act like i am superior then the Noob's will hate me and give replies as yours whilst the professionals either join me to prove that they are better or give replies as Jiri does.

That method got me many good artists whilst making amature 3D games. Even a lead artist at EA joined us (for free of course) because of that method.

No, i do not like open discussions. I prefer direct mails. Cause then only the US can read it and not anyone who wants to :D

Baal, if you read carefully then you would notice that I said "regardless of how you define the product and costs". The $$$ was just an example. Sure, humans do change environment a lot which doesn't always have positive consequences for various creatures. But we are learning and our main goal is not to harm. Most people want to live in harmony with the rest of the world. The environment is just relatively complex so of course we do mistakes. But we are also capable of finding solutions. There are ways how to get meat without killing/harming animals. There are plans for solving various environmental problems etc.. Obviously, large scale problems cannot be solved instantly. And if you think that powerful AI systems will not make "mistakes" then you are wrong. It might not be the true mistakes - it might do the very best it can with the information available at the time, but that information will be often incomplete and could be invalid because of the extreme complexity of some problems and experimental limitations. However, the system will have to make some choices at certain points. Obviously, it cannot wait till it discovers all there is to be discovered. Things can go wrong, no matter who the decision maker is. Your burning-people-"solution" reminds me about little kids. Do you know why they love to throw rocks into water? Because they love to have as big impact on the world as they can. And those water circles are getting so big ;). I believe you will eventually grow up and do things which make more sense.

if you believe that this makes more sense.

Yes, that scenario can happen but the complex world will prevent it from happening for atleast 100 years. And 100 years from now the world will probably have solved many of its current problems.

Also, it would never happen since i can block thoughts. The only way for it to happen is if someone hacked into its DB and added a new meaning and re-modeled the movement of this action more than 30% and if the DB is vast then that will require a whole new type of weapon being invented. I doubt that this is possible.

So Jiri, No it will not happen. But it can happen and it sure raised an argument.
I sometimes like to say things that i know will not happen just because when people dislike me then that gives me a lil boost to prove them wrong.
So, i am not only using that technique against others. I am using it against myself too :D

btw, i have never throwed a rock for the "destruction" thrill.

I always did it either to waste time, blend in or to compete for who could make it bounce the furthest.

If you are talking about throwing large boulders into the water then no, have not done that either. But then again, i am from another generation than you are :)

Baal,
Looks like you did not get the metaphor. Some of your statements seem to be the “rocks” I talked about. But let's try to keep focus mainly on AI. You were reportedly "starting to code" your AI a long ago. You talked about having very clear ideas how to do it. So do you have anything testable at this point? Or have you (as many others) found that things are a "bit" more complicated than you expected when moving from the high-level ideas to the design-related details? One of your smaller projects was the intelligent TTT player. What's the status of that little thing? Have you done some practical experiments with the video data (the stuff we talked about many weeks ago)? Did you calculate required resources? Do you have a prototype of at least one of the 3D related components you mentioned in our emails as well as here on SciForums. You were also considering to start with a text based AI. What’s the status of that? What’s being coded now? Have you designed at least some parts of any database for your AI? If so, what is it for? What DBMS do you use? What computer languages do you use? Any interesting code/modules/components to share? Do you spend more time working on your AI than on trying to make people <i>"dislike you [in order to get] a lil boost to prove them wrong"</i>? Is the AI your primary goal? Did you spend some time working on the User-AI interfaces? And/or on the ALF-ALF or User(/You)-ALF communication formats? If there is nothing to test, do you have at least some screenshots? I'm currently not interested in any distant-future-AI designs/discussion or too-high-level (/too general) descriptions of AI projects. I'm interested in what we can do now, using the technology we can really get at this point and how to solve various AI related problems on the detailed level (code;pseudo-code;DB design;detailed data flow diagrams; data format descriptions; interfaces; resource requirements vs performance; ..etc). Many people here are developers/engineers so my suggestion is to not spend too much time talking about Terminator movies etc here.

many questions.

So do you have anything testable at this point?

Sure, i have myself already made 2 EXE's myself and i am working on a third. TR was almost completed but then i thought that something was missing. You see, Johan always tells me that it is too much pre-programmed. Even though it was less pre-programmed than other AI. That is down the path it goes, i started with an vision. I tried to forge that vision into this world, but it was not effective as i hoped. (don't get me wrong, it worked (the first EXE proved that) but it lacked something. Vincent said it lacked a random value, but i told him that random is not intelligence so i invented something else). All along the AI has been evolving to be less "pre-programmed" till today when i have reached my vision. A parameter, layer-based AI. You have all seen the bird flock simulations, they are started with a few parameters, but they have no intelligence. I am doing the same thing but i give them a reason too.

Or have you (as many others) found that things are a "bit" more complicated than you expected when moving from the high-level ideas to the design-related details?

I constantly see things that i can improve, why i have changed the current sample we are building is because i already know the outcome and i want to make a new sample that has the newly discovered features

One of your smaller projects was the intelligent TTT player. What's the status of that little thing?

I had almost forgotten about that one. Johan sent me one of his and since none of us could beat it we told ourselves that maybe we should do something that we are better at :D . haha, Johan could not even beat his own programming

Have you done some practical experiments with the video data (the stuff we talked about many weeks ago)?

It is a rather trivial task compared to much other programming features but it is on the way. We will need it in the SC & W Soccer Game

Did you calculate required resources?

Well, that depends on the resolution and on the fps count but Yes. I don't really remember the figures and i have them at my laptop but i think it that according to my calculations around 2.5 Ghz computer was needed to have a 24 FPS. But since we will be satisfied with 10 FPS i think the minimum was a 1.6 Ghz computer.
The ram neccesary is a lil more than 256 so it is not that demanding.
My 2.0 Ghz computer with 512 in Ram would do the trick.

You were also considering to start with a text based AI. What’s the status of that?

well, in order to make it possible to start our AI without any knowledge, just physical and mental parameters (possibly incorrect parameters since as long as the empirical parameters is within a reasonable level.) Well, we need other sensories to start our AI without any piror knowledge

What’s being coded now?

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38092

Have you designed at least some parts of any database for your AI?

Not sure if i understand that question, the DB system is the same everywhere. The entries might not be similar but it is still the same system.
Ill mail thee a DB entry.

What DBMS do you use?

:D Well, i use notepad. But i think we will use Access or i will just write a new one that gives us the features that we need. We have also talked about using MySQL servers but i don't think all others in the team understand the I/O that will acctually occur but that is my failure.

What computer languages do you use?

VB.net and C#. The pseudo code language i call Raven. That is the language we will have to create in the long run.

Any interesting code/modules/components to share?

You can have the pseudo code and the DB design but since you have problems with understanding the basics i am not sure if you will grasp the advanced.

Do you spend more time working on your AI than on trying to make people "dislike you [in order to get] a lil boost to prove them wrong"?

I spend all my time on my AI. I usually lie 2 hours or more vefore i fall asleep thinking of it. I work 8 hours a day so my time has been cut a lil from when i was in school

Is the AI your primary goal?

My primary goal is recognition, AI is one of my methods. But i love my AI, more than i love life itself. Therefore i would never have it integrated in cleaning and other various household robotics.

Did you spend some time working on the User-AI interfaces?

In The Republic you had natural disasters choices, you had the ability to "kill" a alf to see how the society adapted. You could remove resources, you had a command line where you more or less could change the source code.
Human to ALF, yeah. ALF to ALF, no there were (and are) none

Sure, i will prepare a screenshot.
I am very selective when it comes to potential team-members.
I have about 25 people i have turned down. We are a 6 man crew at the moment.

i..made 2 EXE's.

Is somewhere a brief overview of what these EXEs can do?
So you learned C#/VB.NET in the last few months?


TR was almost completed


I remember a bunch of acronyms from your documents but not this one. Please refresh my mind. What is TR?


it worked (the first EXE proved that)


Can you be more specific? What exactly was proved? BTW when you say "vision", I'm not always sure if you are talking about your general AI ideas or about image processing. Are you writing a new 3D engine or using an existing one? Do you play with those 3D-2D-3D conversions?


i want to make a new sample that has the newly discovered features


What exactly do you want to prove with this "new sample".


..TTT project.. Johan sent me one of his and since none of us could beat it we told ourselves that maybe we should do something that we are better at.


Does it mean that your AI ideas are not general enough to be applied to the TTT game?
Can you please send me the best TTT you have (the one which none of you can beat) ?
I tried many good ones but none was so good that I would be unable to beat it when I really keep focus.
I may try to contact Johan to discuss his algorithms when I get less busy.


..experiments with the video data (the stuff we talked about many weeks ago)...

It is a rather trivial task compared to much other programming features


I do not know how complex are your "other features" but system's vision in a 3D environment is IMHO pretty non-trivial area which may require some very unique solutions.


but it is on the way. We will need it in the SC & W Soccer Game


I see.. You may not need good vision for soccer. A typical Soccer environment is pretty limited = relatively easy to read. You originally talked about combat robots for military. The difference is huge (and of course not just for vision). BTW it may be a good idea to provide a link to a dictionary of the acronyms. When you talk publicly then I guess you want others to know what you are talking about.


resources..My 2.0 Ghz computer with 512 in Ram would do the trick.


How much HDD space? What kind of data will the ALFs need to remember? Is it going to grow quicky? How many creatures do you want to simulate simultaneously in that world. What do you think are the most important benefits of
A) dividing resources between many little brains + the world simulations
versus
B) using all available resources for a single artificial mind.

Is the project overview on your web? What are the most significant features which distinguish your AI from the AI which can be found in today's games? You have mentioned that you are years ahead comparing to the other (currently developed) projects. So what are the features which make it so unique?


http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38092


If the ball is a part of the simulation then I guess you know all its parameters. If this is about robots then you can analyze the "movement" of the ball texture (on the perceived 2D image of the ball) to get idea about the spin.


"Have you designed at least some parts of any database for your AI?"
Not sure if i understand that question, the DB system is the same everywhere.


I was asking about tables, fields, their types etc to learn what kind of queries can run against it. Basically the info which shows what data are stored and how. I'm interested in DB designs related to the general problem solving (not to small-domain specific data structures) + the subject_to_subject communication related stuff.


"What DBMS do you use?"

Well, i use notepad.


Oh my... Looks like your current version of AI cannot do much..


But i think we will use Access


Keep in mind that MS Access only good for relatively simple apps with small amount of data and a few users.
It's a toy DB system.


>or i will just write a new one that gives us the features that we need.


Make sure you know what you are doing. I met many who used to think that way. When they finally learned what the good DBMS can do then all of them realized that writing their own would be a pure nonsense and a tremendous waste of dev-time.


We have also talked about using MySQL...


MySQL is not a bad DB system but you may want to check SQL Server or ORACLE.


>pseudo code language i call Raven. That is the language we will have to create in the long run.


Is there any public document about that language? BTW you may want to use another name. I think I already read about a computer language called Raven. It was something similar to C with some object oriented ideas.


>You can have the pseudo code and the DB design but since you have problems with understanding the basics i am not sure if you will grasp the advanced.


That's a valid concern but I don't think that my limited IQ (and/or focus) is the only possible explanation. ;-)


>My primary goal is recognition


Looks like you are not talking about pattern recognition ;), you want others to think very high about you, right?
That would explain a lot. Boy, make your life easier and realize that it's not that important. It does not really matter what most people think about us as individuals. Seriously, put some thoughts on your values. It could save you lots of time.


>But i love my AI, more than i love life itself.


What would you do if you learn that your AI is a loser comparing to many AI systems developed by others?


Therefore i would never have it integrated in cleaning and other various household robotics.


Every job which needs to be done is important. And some of those cleaning tasks can be actually relatively challenging. What are you (ultimately) designing the AI for?


>User-AI interfaces..
Human to ALF, yeah.


Any documents about that communication? I would be also interested to see the related DB design (if there is such a thing). Would you call it a rich communication or is it just something very limited?


>Sure, i will prepare a screenshot.


Cool!


I am very selective when it comes to potential team-members.
I have about 25 people i have turned down. We are a 6 man crew at the moment.


Yeah, you are the God ;-)). Are you sure they did not “turn down” you, thinking that you often didn't really know what you talked about? ;-))

BTW some of the questions would be better to answer on your project-related web.

Is somewhere a brief overview of what these EXEs can do?
So you learned C#/VB.NET in the last few months?

?
I have been programming since i was 7.
Been using .Net for ... about 2 years i believe.

The EXE's, the first learn from the past.
The second learn from determined future.
They do not really reflect the latest AI so i will not explain it better than that.

I remember a bunch of acronyms from your documents but not this one. Please refresh my mind. What is TR?

The Republic

Can you be more specific? What exactly was proved? BTW when you say "vision", I'm not always sure if you are talking about your general AI ideas or about image processing. Are you writing a new 3D engine or using an existing one? Do you play with those 3D-2D-3D conversions?

We are discussing if we should write our own language and 3d engine or just make new modules in .Net
I know some Assembler but not enough to build this so i will leave this decision to the others even if i speak my point of view.

What exactly do you want to prove with this "new sample".

That we can build better AI with less pre-programmed data.

Does it mean that your AI ideas are not general enough to be applied to the TTT game?
Can you please send me the best TTT you have (the one which none of you can beat) ?
I tried many good ones but none was so good that I would be unable to beat it when I really keep focus.
I may try to contact Johan to discuss his algorithms when I get less busy.

Our AI would work for TTT but it would not be better than others. If we start it with no knowledge then it would take a while for it to learn the rules to start with and then the game play would take more time. In order to optimize the game well, that might take a while.
I don't have the TTT on this computer but ill ask Johan to send it to me again.
(I found a problem with one of the parameters though. It was set to play defensive so if i had 3 and it 4 and it was my turn and i made it 4 - 4 then it tried to stop me instead of choosing a cetain victory)

I do not know how complex are your "other features" but system's vision in a 3D environment is IMHO pretty non-trivial area which may require some very unique solutions.

Well, it is not a trival task but it is simple in the way that there are not that many features that has to be interconnected with it.

I see.. You may not need good vision for soccer. A typical Soccer environment is pretty limited = relatively easy to read. You originally talked about combat robots for military. The difference is huge (and of course not just for vision). BTW it may be a good idea to provide a link to a dictionary of the acronyms. When you talk publicly then I guess you want others to know what you are talking about.

Mathematical forumlas are writen like James R wrote one "dL/dt = RF sin(angle)"
James explained what the characters meant but many take it for granted what R and F stands for, i know that i would.
But sure, i will try to explain.

TR = The Republic
SC & W = Svensson, Cann & Willis
ALF = Artificial Lifeform
AI = Artificial Intelligence
CES = Cogitio Ergo Sum
TTT = Tic Tac Toe

can't think of any more right now.

How much HDD space? What kind of data will the ALFs need to remember? Is it going to grow quicky? How many creatures do you want to simulate simultaneously in that world. What do you think are the most important benefits of
A) dividing resources between many little brains + the world simulations
versus
B) using all available resources for a single artificial mind.

Is the project overview on your web? What are the most significant features which distinguish your AI from the AI which can be found in today's games? You have mentioned that you are years ahead comparing to the other (currently developed) projects. So what are the features which make it so unique?

HDD, i was never certain of that. But i reckoned that a text-based entry would require 1 kb, whilst a digital entry would require 150 kb or possibly more.
I had 50 GB to spare and since the entries in the republic would not be more than around 100, 200 it was never a obsticle.

A or B, well i believe that alone one stands strong so 1 brain is better.
I know what you are saying but i can just not think of any good simulation for it.

Well, it is not pre-programmed. It can learn from much that i doubt that humans can learn from because of the sensories i have designed.

If the ball is a part of the simulation then I guess you know all its parameters. If this is about robots then you can analyze the "movement" of the ball texture (on the perceived 2D image of the ball) to get idea about the spin.

I am afraid that you are think way to simple. I am more into the universal solutions were i come up with a solution and see how it would function in the different problems. Not just one problem.

I was asking about tables, fields, their types etc to learn what kind of queries can run against it. Basically the info which shows what data are stored and how. I'm interested in DB designs related to the general problem solving (not to small-domain specific data structures) + the subject_to_subject communication related stuff.

Sure, it would not be a pseudo code without it. I think i have had that feature in the pseudo codes since a year ago but the others prefer pure code than to see what they think is abstact.
The process flow is not that important to them since they are programmers and prefer code.

Oh my... Looks like your current version of AI cannot do much..

Jiri, you seem to think that the key to AI is advanced technology and fancy systems.
The Pseudo DB i perhaps should call it.

Keep in mind that MS Access only good for relatively simple apps with small amount of data and a few users.

Well, we will need our own programming lanuage, our own 3D engine, our own DB System. The list is long.

Make sure you know what you are doing. I met many who used to think that way. When they finally learned what the good DBMS can do then all of them realized that writing their own would be a pure nonsense and a tremendous waste of dev-time.

Yes, instead of writing Raven (our programming language) we will write modules and functions for the .Net framework. We will program color coding in the DB system we will use. We will use TV3D as a 3D Engine since we all have experience in that 3D motor. We discussed using the DX SDK but using TV3D will make us more time.

Is there any public document about that language? BTW you may want to use another name. I think I already read about a computer language called Raven. It was something similar to C with some object oriented ideas.

Ahh, the best names are already taken.
The pseudo code is the document. I write so many comments that it becomes a couple of A4 pages of just comments.

That's a valid concern but I don't think that my limited IQ (and/or focus) is the only possible explanation. ;-)

Jiri, you know that i have tremendous respect for you. But i fear that either you want to find problems that you cannot read between the lines and see the obvious or you simply dont want to understand.

Looks like you are not talking about pattern recognition , you want others to think very high about you, right?
That would explain a lot. Boy, make your life easier and realize that it's not that important. It does not really matter what most people think about us as individuals. Seriously, put some thoughts on your values. It could save you lots of time.QUOTE]

No, i do not think i meant pattern recognition.
Actually i do not care if people think highly of me. No induvidual is worth that much.
Watch "A Beautiful Mind", the scene where John Nash (Russel Crowe) is talking to his "imaginary friend" on the roof. (It is in the begining of the movie), There you will have your answer.

If this is a too vauge reply (if you do not have time to watch that great movie) then tell me and i will explain.

[QUOTE]What would you do if you learn that your AI is a loser comparing to many AI systems developed by others?

Well, i would make it better. That is what i do, i solve problems.
I have created my AI in image of myself.

Every job which needs to be done is important. And some of those cleaning tasks can be actually relatively challenging. What are you (ultimately) designing the AI for?

Good question, i have no other answer than that i am doing it for myself.
Freud was right
But hey, sharing is the most selfish you can do since you only share so that others will like you so i am really less selfish than many others and i am true to myself cause i admit being selfish.

Any documents about that communication? I would be also interested to see the related DB design (if there is such a thing). Would you call it a rich communication or is it just something very limited?

Are you talking about interfaces or long-night chats with the AI?
Windows is a graphical interface.
I thought that the Human to ALF interface meant the function behind the graphical interface that allowed you to interact with the AI (not by chatting but by affecting it or its environement)
If you have another definition then please correct me so that i am not learning something wrong here.


Yeah, you are the God ;-)). Are you sure they did not “turn down” you, thinking that you often didn't really know what you talked about? ;-))

no, i have about 15 of them left in my MSN contact book.
I think it is the other way around, that they did not understand what i was talking about and therefore i did not invite them to join.
Jiri, if i am not misstaking you do not understand either :p But hey, that is my own failure as a cause of my inability to explain it to thee.

BTW some of the questions would be better to answer on your project-related web.

I am also thinking of adding a forum, something you might want to check out ?

Baal,

Using .NET for 2 years? Well, my wife too and I do not think she was actually aware of it ;-)). OK ;), I did not expect that you have the experience because you relatively recently wanted to code your AI using VB6. None of the experienced folks I know who are familiar with VB6 and who have at least 1 year of coding experience with .NET would choose VB6 over .NET when starting a new, bigger than a little, project.


discussing if we should write our own language


Is it gonna be unique enough to justify the needed dev-time? Can you tell us what makes it so different? BTW JB's folks should be finishing the first version of their new AI language (the CAIO) in these days. I'm curious what that is gonna be about. 2 of my friends are currently considering a new AI language development and even I have a preliminary idea for something what could possibly become a new coding paradigm (which would require a new language). Many seem to think about new languages. That's good but an AI developer needs to consider carefully if the ideas are unique enough. Time is expensive for AI developers and resources are always limited.


write...3d engine.. Assembler


Forget assembler. Assembler for such a thing would make sense years ago but not today. Use standard libraries and (whenever possible) stick with managed code which will run under CLR. If your primary goal is AI then do not waste time coding a new 3D engine.

Our AI would work for TTT but it would not be better than others. If we start it with no knowledge then it would take a while for it to learn the rules to start with and then the game play would take more time.


If that's the case then how can you expect that it will be practical for complex real-world problem solving.


It was set to play defensive so if i had 3 and it 4 and it was my turn and i made it 4 - 4 then it tried to stop me instead of choosing a cetain victory)


If you are at least an average player then such a bug is kind of unbelievable considering that the developer was good enough to develop a player which beats you all the time.


digital entry would require 150 kb or possibly more.


I assume that the "digital entry" often means an image. The size suggests that it would likely be a compressed image (eg JPG, PNG etc). The compression may cause challenges for some algorithms. Only 100 entries?? How often (in average) will a single alf need to remember (store) a single image in order learn what's going on in that world. Wouldn't it usually need a stream of images (for all the ALFs)? If so, are you planning to actually compress all those streamed images (potentially from many streams at the same time) in real time during the simulation of the whole 3D world?? On your 2GHz machine (and whatever your graphic card is)? Did you have a chance to play the GTA Vice City game. That's a pretty decent piece of code but do you think it simulates the whole City in real time? No way (for obvious reasons).. It simulates mostly just what the player is looking at and even that makes current home machines sweat.


i believe that alone one stands strong so 1 brain is better.


Then do it! Solve the related problems.


i can just not think of any good simulation for it.


It would work with the "real" world, using the data provided by users and other systems.


It can learn from much that i doubt that humans can learn from because of the sensories i have designed.


Note that humans have many more than 5 senses.


I asked about the DB design and you answered talking about pseudocode. Generally, you always seem to by fuzzy on DB designs. So let me ask this way: You were thinking about using Access. What are the names of tables you wanted/want to create in that DB? I assume you know the meaning of "table" in the DB related terminology.


you seem to think that the key to AI is advanced technology and fancy systems.
The Pseudo DB i perhaps should call it.


No but I have difficulty to imagine how you can effectively manage related data using simple text files. Are you familiar with the basic DBMS related concepts like "relational integrity", "indexes", "transactions" etc..? A C# code alone does not make an AI system capable of solving complex problems. It needs lots of well organized data. You will get nowhere without a decent data management system.


we will need our own..DB System.


What's so special about your system that you cannot use one of the existing DBMSs?


Yes, instead of writing Raven (our programming language) we will write modules and functions for the .Net framework. We will program color coding in the DB system we will use. We will use TV3D as a 3D Engine since we all have experience in that 3D motor. We discussed using the DX SDK but using TV3D will make us more time.


You seem to be switching ideas quickly. Maybe we should discuss it when you have a bit more stable ideas about what you want to do and how.


The pseudo code is the document.


A pseudo code is the documentation about your "Raven" language?? Strange.. Where is it?


i have tremendous respect for you.


No need for respect. Need for powerful AI.


But i fear that either you want to find problems that you cannot read between the lines and see the obvious or you simply dont want to understand.


No.. But note that I have many years of well paid experience with coding complex applications for major clients. That (of course) does not necessarily help me to understand the key ideas of your AI (especially considering how you describe it) but it certainly helps to see if the stuff you want to code can be practically implemented using available tools. You should be able to explain what exactly you want to code to people like me. Of course you do not have to tell me anything.. But if you are trying to and if it does not work well then I think you have a problem. And I'm sure you noticed that I'm not the only one who sees problems in your ideas.


Watch "A Beautiful Mind", the scene where John Nash (Russel Crowe) is talking to his "imaginary friend" on the roof. (It is in the begining of the movie), There you will have your answer.


Keep in mind that he got recognized because of knowing what to ignore during his work.


i am true to myself cause i admit being selfish.


I believe that simply being a subject means being selfish.


Windows is a graphical interface.


{sigh}.. I realized that.. But do users just write whatever they want to say into a textbox and the system gets the meaning using the NLP? Or is it a special type of communicaton driven by carefully designed (possibly complex communication-specific) screens? If so, can you show a screenshot or the related part of the design document?


I thought that the Human to ALF interface meant the function behind the graphical interface that allowed you to interact with the AI.. If you have another definition then please correct me so that i am not learning something wrong here.


Whatever part of the system is the user experiencing during the communication is part of the interface. It includes the graphical interface (all the screen elements supporting the communication).


thinking of adding a forum, something you might want to check out ?


I might stop by sometimes..

Using .NET for 2 years? Well, my wife too and I do not think she was actually aware of it ;-)). OK , I did not expect that you have the experience because you relatively recently wanted to code your AI using VB6. None of the experienced folks I know who are familiar with VB6 and who have at least 1 year of coding experience with .NET would choose VB6 over .NET when starting a new, bigger than a little, project.

No, the problem was that not everyone had .Net. I prefered to use VB.Net over VB6 and Vincent was going to use C#. But Johan did not have it back then.

Is it gonna be unique enough to justify the needed dev-time? Can you tell us what makes it so different? BTW JB's folks should be finishing the first version of their new AI language (the CAIO) in these days. I'm curious what that is gonna be about. 2 of my friends are currently considering a new AI language development and even I have a preliminary idea for something what could possibly become a new coding paradigm (which would require a new language). Many seem to think about new languages. That's good but an AI developer needs to consider carefully if the ideas are unique enough. Time is expensive for AI developers and resources are always limited.

You know, for his concept to work (what he told me) he would probably need more than those TA-15 ;)
You see, it is rather simple building a robot able to observe and determine what to do, But in order to interact as he wants it. Well, he just does not have the concept. He would have to make it hardcoded and that is impossible with todays technology. Even with tomorrows technology that he has. He simply cannot do it.

Time and Resources are always limited, that is right. But i reckon it is worse for you than for me. Especially with family, work and you should know that i respect you for being able to multi-task as you do.

Forget assembler. Assembler for such a thing would make sense years ago but not today. Use standard libraries and (whenever possible) stick with managed code which will run under CLR. If your primary goal is AI then do not waste time coding a new 3D engine.

At the moment, Yes. But we would need to optimize a computer design if/when we build robots/advanced applications and then making it in Assembler might be "clever".

If that's the case then how can you expect that it will be practical for complex real-world problem solving.

Well, it will have a huge amount of sensories (just as humans), making it easier to obtain data. Remember, that unlike the other AI it does not know anything.

I assume that the "digital entry" often means an image. The size suggests that it would likely be a compressed image (eg JPG, PNG etc). The compression may cause challenges for some algorithms. Only 100 entries?? How often (in average) will a single alf need to remember (store) a single image in order learn what's going on in that world. Wouldn't it usually need a stream of images (for all the ALFs)? If so, are you planning to actually compress all those streamed images (potentially from many streams at the same time) in real time during the simulation of the whole 3D world?? On your 2GHz machine (and whatever your graphic card is)? Did you have a chance to play the GTA Vice City game. That's a pretty decent piece of code but do you think it simulates the whole City in real time? No way (for obvious reasons).. It simulates mostly just what the player is looking at and even that makes current home machines sweat.

hmm, Digital entry often means image, yes.
Yes, they would compressed by the Visual NN after empirical value has been reached.
No visual stream neccesary.
But that is not the full story because we have visual streams but they are converted into a few entries of text.

Then do it! Solve the related problems.

IMHO, i have already solved all the related problems but it is just a matter of putting it to practice. We are making the soccer game ATM, what comes next i cannot say now. You might be able to influence it but ATM we are choosing what represents our AI the best.

Note that humans have many more than 5 senses.

Humans have 5 senses (eyes, ears, touch, smell, taste)
Then there are a lot of sub-systems for all of these senses. I believe that i have whole Eyes and Touch covered. I am not sure if i have whole Audio covered, since i have not thought about it for more than maybe 30 hours.
I can tell you right now that i have not smell and taste covered. I have thought on how to integrate it but i reckon there are lots of sub-systems that i have no idea about ATM.

No but I have difficulty to imagine how you can effectively manage related data using simple text files. Are you familiar with the basic DBMS related concepts like "relational integrity", "indexes", "transactions" etc..? A C# code alone does not make an AI system capable of solving complex problems. It needs lots of well organized data. You will get nowhere without a decent data management system.

Well, the structure of the DB is very effective. The DB itself solves many speech related issues.

What's so special about your system that you cannot use one of the existing DBMSs?

Well, first of all the strucutre is all wrong. And our DB system is not really suited for current hard drive designs.
Secondly, the index system is based much on integers and color coding rather than text based entries.
Of course existing DB systems work fine too, but there is always room for improvment.

You seem to be switching ideas quickly. Maybe we should discuss it when you have a bit more stable ideas about what you want to do and how.

?, I have always said that in the long run we would profit from building Raven instead of using .Net but we do not have the time nor the resources.

A pseudo code is the documentation about your "Raven" language?? Strange.. Where is it?

On 2 of my computers, my USB memory and on Williams computer.

No.. But note that I have many years of well paid experience with coding complex applications for major clients. That (of course) does not necessarily help me to understand the key ideas of your AI (especially considering how you describe it) but it certainly helps to see if the stuff you want to code can be practically implemented using available tools. You should be able to explain what exactly you want to code to people like me. Of course you do not have to tell me anything.. But if you are trying to and if it does not work well then I think you have a problem. And I'm sure you noticed that I'm not the only one who sees problems in your ideas.

Actually the others that i liked from the begining (that i sent my concept) understood the it right away. James (also a senior developer) suggested many "hints" for the machine vision.
Roland suggested some features that far beyond the design that i wrote. I had a limited feature of what he suggested in teh first designs but not like what he had in mind. Now i have improved that concept even further and the design has changed to what it is today.

{sigh}.. I realized that.. But do users just write whatever they want to say into a textbox and the system gets the meaning using the NLP? Or is it a special type of communicaton driven by carefully designed (possibly complex communication-specific) screens? If so, can you show a screenshot or the related part of the design document?

At the moment they do not chat. But it would be a textbox for chatting.
Interaction (causing disasters and such, that is a graphical interface that is then hard-coded into the code since it has nothing to do with the AI)

But it would be a textbox for chatting.

Is the communication going to be somehow limited or users can talk just about anything? How are you going to get the meaning from sentences written into that textbox? Is one of the first steps an attempt to recognize parts of speech? Is the text going to be translated into some sort of cleaner internal language?

a cleaner language? yes and no.

but, i prefer to not talk any further about human to alf speech communications since i have not thought about it as much as i have with real world integration.

visual streams...are converted into a few entries of text
Do you have any document describing formats of these text entries? Or can you at least show some examples of these entries (generated based on the visual stream analyses)? Since you are storing data in text files, you can just copy-paste.. I'm especially interested in the more complex text entries.

Jiri, i am never keen on sharing information. Especially not on a open forum.

But, our AI.

We have parameters, that is all we start our AI with. It does not need the ability to walk, it will be started without the ability to kick the ball in the soccer game.
The parameters are Mental/Physical values. A mental value is Empirical, telling the ALF when something has been proved.
A physical value can be Gravity or wind.

The object within the visual stream is stored as models and textures (or possibly just images).
However, the visual stream is merely a subject for the imagination method and all it needs to imagine something is to use its parameters.
Imagine a blue ball, 15 Kg in weight, A radius of 10 cm for instance but with this method above it would be autonomous.
It would be able to "remember" the spin of the ball, the direction of the ball.
It will "forget" unnecesary data. The trees in the background might be unnecesary in some cases. So with its grouping method and its relation system it would check if the trees might be of any use or if it can be removed.

Hello Baal. I'm a computational linguistics. You have made a fatal error. We are in fact all born with an innate ability for speech. The grammar we each use is mostly inbuilt, and only slightly learned. There are a number of switches. By being exposed to a particular language, these switches are thrown into certain configurations (verb following/veb preceeding as a simplified example). This, combined with our INNATE grammar, the grammar you as a new born baby came ready equipped with gives us our rules. Exposure to language gives us our vocabulary and sets the switches, but it's not the whole story.
It's a very interesting field, and one that cannot be reduced to your simplistic approach. I suggest that you read some books on Chomsky or Head Driven Phrase Structure Grammar. Also an amount of research into how syntax relates to semantics may be useful, as well as a look at some of the philosophical issues of meaning representation.
How can you solve this problem when you don't even know what the problem is?

leda, "switches" ?
You can call it switches but i prefer to call it parameters.

A parameter is a default value (inaccurate) or a threshold (most likely visual).

Humans are probably also initiated with parameters but hey, they are not started with the ability to speak. They have the ability to learn how to speak. Just as my AI.
What many others (to be fair) think is that if they start a politican with enourmous information and fancy speech then it will be truely intelligent.

Some seem to think that by moving the pre-programmed code to a database makes it intelligent.

leda, when you were born could you ask "What is that i am seeing over there?". You could just have said "I am as stupid as my inventor and therefore i have to ask what it is i am seeing" or "To err is human, that is what my inventor did! Mind if i ask you a question? But you have to tell the truth cause i cannot filter away the lies."
I created my Ai in my own image. If the AI "professionals" cannot understand how their own brain works then something is terrible wrong. I have even moved beyond that and started analysing how other humans, birds, cats, dogs brains work. Therefore :

Jiri, mind if i make you immortal?
I have a new feature, mind it call it UJB ("Unlike Jiri Behaviour".)
The feature makes it possible for the ALF to "read between the lines" (giving it the ability of assumption (if logical of course) )
I am not trying to be mean, i am the worst ever when it comes to comming up with names. But since i came up with it whilst talking to you i see it as fair that you get some credit.
It does not need any new parameters or senses to function, it was already included in the design but it was not connected. Mind if i name it after you?

..i have created a fascist AI..
..I created my Ai in my own image..


I hope you are not talking about the same AI here.


Jiri, mind if i make you immortal?
I have a new feature, mind it call it UJB ("Unlike Jiri Behaviour".)


Names used in the dev-related documents should make as much sense as possible for new members of the dev team. Names used in the user-level documentation should make as much sense as possible for new users. The other names are not important. Use whatever names you like. I don't really care. I care about practical AI algorithms and about ways how to organize related data. Especially about the unique ones. Unfortunately you do not seem to know what that really means in the real world + you cannot answer questions which I consider important (whatever the reason is). So, for now, I just wish you good luck with your non-fascist projects.

You know that i try to make as little sense as possible to those outside the team (etc, you).

Fascist AI, it will be logical, it would see just see values. Fascism to me.
My image, it does not care about anyone, it process data just as i do.

But i will change the UJB term.
Any suggestions?


btw, i was avoiding some of your questions because they were so inaccurate (especially when you were talking about DB)

Leda,
Does the UG theory (or any other theory/article you know) include detailed description of the underlying universal language model which could be effectively used when searching for shortcomings of a new artificial language (which is being designed for the User-AI communication)?

Baal,

Do not bother sending the TTT. I already talked with the author. It's far from being that clever. Many can beat it easily. It's one of his very first computer programs. Baal, we started to talk in 2003 and the more details we discuss, the more obvious your confusion is. Even a developer from your "own" "team" confirms that you are pretty much confused about the complexity of various concepts. I recommend you to stay away from big claims. You need to spend more time studying the field and the technology.

I already told you, Johans tic-tac-toe player was not clever so i decided that we should skip TTT since it would be hard for us to test the intelligence level because we could not even beat his.

We are named SC & W, "S" does not stand for Strömbom and there is no "J" in it either.
Unlike you Jiri, he understand the concept, just not how to convert it into code.

Baal, some of your statements are better to be ignored. But let me tell you this: The fact that some of your friends "understand the concept" the same way as you do does not mean that it's a valid AI/AGI concept *AND* the fact that someone has a valid theoretical concept for AI/AGI does not mean that it can be developed using the current (or the near future) technology. At some point, an experienced guy may tell you something like "yeah, that seems to be a valid AGI concept!". But it's useless unless you can code it + keep in mind that many ideas which initially appeared to be promissing failed badly. Many pages on the Internet are filled with "nice looking" but practically useless high level ideas. One of the key differences between you and serious AI developers is that you are designing important parts of the system using black boxes (without a good ideas how to make it work IRL). Serious development is about using very real components. If you do not have relatively clear ideas how to turn your black boxes into real components (+ good algorithms on the other levels all the way up) then you cannot claim you really solved the hard AI problem. Stay away from your shallow strategies of trying to confuse people. The AI community members need to be honest with each other. We have enough real problems to focus on.


TTT.. since it would be hard for us to test the intelligence level because we could not even beat his.


You could evaluate it relatively. There are competitions of all kinds of artificial players and you could let various versions of your players to play against each other (and measure various parameters) in order to get some ideas about the progress. BTW do you think that the authors of the Deep Blue system could beat it when playing a fair game? I guess you want all your AI systems to become better than humans, don't you? So how exactly are you going to measure the intelligence level of the other project? If you cannot give me relatively clear answers then do not bother to answer at all. I know, you think I cannot read between your lines but I see it differently. I think the problem is that you do not have a good understanding of concepts related to your "between lines" stuff. The way how you discuss your AI project on various places (including this one) is kind of chaotic. If you want to discuss it then try to create a good documentation. Break the issues down, provide links and try to move forward systematically (like Dennis did). BTW I do not think Dennis presented a good AI idea, but he is trying to move forward very systematically + he is playing with very real components. That's what counts.

I noticed your attempts to learn some stuff in the other threads. Check the http://www.howstuffworks.com. You may find some answers there.

BTW I just got an update on CAIO. Unfortunately, the CAIO AI language development does not go very well. I cannot go into details because I signed related NDA but, basically, the authors did hit some unexpected and very critical problems. The CAIO development is currently not moving forward. The July deadline is lost and the future of the project is uncertain.

You speak to the student when i have 2 senior programmers in the team (plus vincent, but i cannot count with him for a while)

Jiri, i started programming when i was 7, All i see is code.

When me and my ex-team made 3d games, we changed the game type and story all the time. Most got bored and it contributed to us falling apart, but we developed a technology for terrains that was before its time. We could have huge terrains, it is just now adays that Battlefield has reached our size on terrains. (Novalogic's Polyvox terrains are larger but that is only because they load the same terrain over and over again)

Jiri, i know how you see the problem. You are a scientist, you reach your results from trial and error. (Structured trial and error)

I on the other hand do not believe that something should be tested till it is perfected.
You think that trial and error should perfect it.
"Your brain cannot simulate a whole world" (or something like that you told me once)
Well, i guess we will have to see about that.

And please, i already told you in the mail, i did not attempt to learn, i intended to test a theory. Etc, i asked about Ice. They told me nothing more than i already knew. But that answer is not enough to me.

I have no NDA and they did not get the project.

Baal,
Why don't you invite the most experienced professional from your team here? That might get more interesting than talking with school boys like you or Johan. You keep mentioning those years ;-). What you should realize is that there are many others who have many more years of experience and much more significant things on their resumes and they still have hard time to solve some of the very challenging AI problems (and please do not talk about you being better because of your "thinking out of box" IF you cannot go into related details). Some of the AI legends are still living and working on those hard problems. Having some senior developers and x years of coding experience (with games) is good but it does not mean as much as you seem to think. I'm not saying that you cannot succeed. I'm just saying that what you are talking about is not the key to the success. I'm not gonna comment your notes about "trial-error" and “perfection” even though there would be things to clarify. Just design a prototype which can be practically coded, discuss the ideas if needed, share all the unique ideas if you can and if you have any and try to move forward with the practical development. Make sure that ALL the key components can be coded using the available tools. Dive into the design related details. The details are often what makes various things doable/not-doable. Spending time with too general AI discussions and personality related exchanges is not really gonna move you forward.


i did not attempt to learn, i intended to test a theory..


You can likely find the theory related details on the howstuffworks.com. Many things are explained on that server so that even amateurs can get relatively good ideas about the concepts.

listen, i am at vaccation now. I cannot answer your post ATM.

1 and a half week or so and ill be back.

managed to get some time to reply...

Jiri, there was a time when you had "limited" time, you seldom replied the day after, guess that has changed because now you hurry to reply every day. I liked it when you did not have any time because it fitted my schedule too. But now, well. I am not going to discuss with you any more. It is up to you if you want to believe in me or not, unforunatly we live in a free world.
Tell me when you feel that you can recreate Vermer, Goethe, Wagner's brains.
heck, even tell me when you can recreate a dogs brain.
Tell me when you are closing in on recreating Einstein.

Gremlins in Sciforums? I got an email notification on 7/24/2004 8:43 AM that says:

Baal Zebul has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Artificial Intelligence Project - in the Intelligence & Machines forum of sciforums.com.

I came here to reply but found the post missing....

Baal,
When I want to respond here (or work on a particular private project), I simply do it when it fits my schedule. I thought the others here do the same thing. AI development is relatively important to me, but it's not my top priority, which is one of the reasons why I do not know when I'm gonna be done (whatever the "done" means when it comes to AI). It's more fun than race to me and I do not go for "recognition" as you do. I have:

- some practical AI ideas which seem to be promising and which can really be coded using the currently available tools
- decent dev skills
- several variants of some parts of my AI DB design
- draft design for some of the key interfaces
- relatively small amount of code written
- very limited time for the AI R&D

There is still some work on the theory evaluation to do. A significant part of the initial coding is not very interesting from the AI perspective but it's still pretty much design specific so it's worth to spend some additional time with getting the theory more stable before writing lots of code. Also, there is a big difference between making some complex algorithms just working vs making it working + very dynamic/flexible (open for the future extentions/improvements/changes/script_configurable etc). Well done initial design can save a huge amount of the future (next versions) dev time. AI is one of MANY things I'm working_on (/interested_in) and, as I mentioned, not the top priority. You are, on the other hand, saying things like <i>"I love my AI more than i love life itself"</i> and <i>"I have a new </i>[AI]<i> concept </i>[for]<i> human replica </i>[doable on]<i> normal PC"</i> etc + you are (reportedly) working on it for some time + you are talking about being experienced team lead with decent coding experience and having some senior developers in your team.. So I guess it makes sense to ask how far did you get this year with your AI. Anything to download/test? Any unique/practical ideas to share? Any design document online? Brief project plan/schedule online? Where are the screenshots we talked about? What can the current version of your AI system do? And it would be great if you can keep your posts here as technical as possible. We are not just some AI comics readers. You are talking with researchers and developers here.

kmguru, i posted some new calculations on how much processing power would be needed to re-create a dogs intelligence and how much for a human's. rough estimations were that 0.5 GHz would be neccesary for the dog and 10.4 GHz for the human and that was if everything ran at the same time, which of course is impossible. That complex materials don't exist in this world. But as i wrote, the human brain was too hard to calculate to actually back up.

Jiri, have to go away on vaccation again for 10 days or less. don't have time for everything ATM.
School will not get you anywhere, that i have known for long. So of course i have to do something else.
In the begining i was more interested in posting documents and i often liked to make diagrams on how the brain evolved. Now i think about it all the time so when i am preparing to code something i come up with something new. That slows me down, but gives me a better concept.
I think i have 1.0 complete now after one year.
no time, ill post more when i get back. Plus my AI design will be complete, i might send you a copy. Just have to hear if the others are pro that. the C and the W in SC & W.

Leda,
I know this input is a bit late but you mention that children have preformed switches to learn language from a young age, however it's not like that. It's been proven with "Wild children" children that have been outcast by their parents and left to grow up in the wild (woodlands etc). Such children have proven to lose their ability to comprehend language, this is because during the Interphase of new braincells, the cells have to be stimulated to generate a communications array with other cells. Without stimulation the array doesn't form and it causes the child to potentially not speak.

The stimulation occurs from the Ears that need to be able to hear, the reverbiration of the ear drum then signals the sound to the developing Temporal lobe which is also the preportion of the brain that controls vocal patterning.

Therefore the conclusion is that a child has to "Overhear" parents and other people talk to build up the ability to talk themselves or otherwise potentially become "Mute" for lack of communication.

As a usual latecomer I cannot respond to all that has been written,


Attempts to gain insight or information from nothing are inherently random.

Predicting behavior or guiding actions based on previous data and past events does show promise. The difficulty remains defining the scope of the data required for better accuracy.

The trick when developing a learning algorithm is to have a large set of data with a known set of true results that can be obtained from it. Absolute truths.

If you are modeling it after a human being; it being mentioned as an example:
It begins not with a blank slate but with a genetic template,
It makes one creature sentient and another unintelligent.
It doesn’t matter if one considers DNA: software or data, the two are interchangeable.
On top of this are years of development (see Stryderunknown)
The body learns to interact with the environment.
Truth expands from (warmth, hunger) to (touch, taste)
The environment for a human being is naturally an exponentially large set of data.
Only later do these things become related to abstract concepts.

Forever it must be said “, but it’s not the whole story.”

I can assure you that in your quest to gain help, and that is why you began this;
providing information almost always to your benefit.
There seem to be many people here who are genuinely interested in what you have to say, you only need to give them an opportunity to comment constructively on your project. All you need is some step-by-step analysis of the programs decision-making process –examples of input and output. It need not be graphical just polished to ease understanding and genuine.
To imitate my work is the greatest flattery I can receive.

I was told once all conquests came from three factors Gold, Glory, or God
If your after the Gold, its in the training of the AI not the software
The Glory, its in promoting your idea and giving the credit
God, (or morality) learning about yourself and humanity

Now I ask, respectively
Are you serious about the bow and arrow AI? …if its what you need…



“What color is the blue ball?”
The computers task seems to be to outsmart the questioner
Is there being a question asked: (? and what)
What is being asked? (is)
What is a “color”? (nonverbal concept)
of what? (the “adj” ball)
is “adj” a property of “color”? (then it is part of the answer)
No amount of guessing will produce the correct answer for the right reason. (Perhaps your iterative process needs explanation.)
The real test is if the program can identify a color from a non-color adjective,
And due to your constraints, “without knowledge”, it is incredibly random.

Chartreuse? :bugeye:

Baal,
So where are the calculations? How did you get the 10.4 number? I think it depends a lot on a particular design so what kind of performance testing did you do with your system? You were planning to develop some criteria for measuring the intelligence level. What's the status of that? How do you define "thinking out of box" for the purpose of AI? Do "C" and "W" have any AI web sites? BTW Testing should be performed by people who were not directly involved in the development. If the system is capable of solving relatively complex problems then I could probably find some time for free testing. Even thought I'm primarily a developer, I'm a pretty good tester. I would be surprised if I cannot find any problem in your system. And of course I wish I could finally see any testable result of your work on AI. I have seen just too many general statements and no real thing. Do you have any test scripts written? If it's gonna work relatively well then I could probably also do some free code reviews. Code reviews currently make nearly 30% of my job and I sometimes "feel" bugs just by looking at the 2D shape of the code. If your response time is limited to 12 sentences (or so) then I would prefer if you just focus on addressing the questions. I do not care if I have to wait 2 weeks or so for some answers. I'm busy with many other things. I'm just interested in getting answers at some point which is often not the case when I talk to you. BTW my discussions with the other AI developers are so different that I often wonder if you really are who you say you are. So show us finally some practical results if you have any and let's hit some details. The too general AI discussions are already kind of boring to me.

Leda (or any other linguist interested in AI),
please contact me at G71ai@aol.com before the end of September. I'm looking for some help with evaluation of a new User-AI communication interface. Thanks.

Stryder, that behaviour is well covered in my design. Of course "fogetting" the ability to speak is rather extreme and that is not featured in my AI but the whole mechanism that leads to it is already included.

Jiri, i spent the last 11 days observing nature (or more accuratly, its inhabitats)
During the day i made discoveries, during the night i documented them.
I now how some work to do:

Correct a common phrase by Darwin
Correct Freud
Prove modern math (related to physics) incorrect


And i will not answer any questions about that, because:
sM & oM > iM

And no Jiri, my team are not AI developers. But you already know that.

The number of hits suggests that a bunch of people read this thread. Is there anyone who is really

- developing algorithms and/or
- designs DBs or
- just has some practical ideas

for some sort of general intelligence system?

Baal, the question above is not for you. Thank you for the time you spent trying to somehow address some parts of my previous posts. I have no more questions for you.

Hello all
This might not be completely related to the subject at hand, but I needed some answers. Recently I created a bot at this website:

http://www.personalityforge.com/botland/index.php

As you know (especially Baal), this does not actually constitute AI, its nothing but structured responses based on already entered data. But, as claimed by the website admins, the bot did start learning a lot. I had set the bot to be a 'world conquerer'. However, the bot doesnt 'know' about it. Apart from a few responses where the bot is supposed to say 'taking over the world' or 'I will take over the world', I did not program any thing else. So I was really surprised when I asked it 'What kind of person are you?' and it responded 'The conquering kind'. There was know way it could have made it up through earlier conversations because I never mentioned it before. Now, it did talk with a few other bots on the site once in a while, as its profile shows me. How in the hell did it have the AI to reply with totally new words and totally new sentence structure?
Anybody?

hello,

it is rather difficult to say since i do not know how your bot works (btw, url did not work)
hmm, a few thoughts.
If you set it to be 'world conquerer' and it bent that word to 'conquering' then you have a bloody good built-in grammar system or somebody has told it the word 'conquering'. :)

My guess is that somebody told it the word 'conquering'

Hello all
This might not be completely related to the subject at hand, but I needed some answers. Recently I created a bot at this website:

http://www.personalityforge.com/botland/index.php

As you know (especially Baal), this does not actually constitute AI, its nothing but structured responses based on already entered data. But, as claimed by the website admins, the bot did start learning a lot. I had set the bot to be a 'world conquerer'. However, the bot doesnt 'know' about it. Apart from a few responses where the bot is supposed to say 'taking over the world' or 'I will take over the world', I did not program any thing else. So I was really surprised when I asked it 'What kind of person are you?' and it responded 'The conquering kind'. There was know way it could have made it up through earlier conversations because I never mentioned it before. Now, it did talk with a few other bots on the site once in a while, as its profile shows me. How in the hell did it have the AI to reply with totally new words and totally new sentence structure?
Anybody?

Knowing something about how such simple bots are built (AIML), it is very likely that it is just one of the preprogrammed answers built in by one of the many people that have fiddled with the response files.

No AIML bot seen to date has such (not so mind-boggling btw) grammatical capabilities, even. They cannot count either, or extrapolate anything in any way.

As far as 'real' AI is concerned, they are a dead end. Eliza could fool a lot of people at the time because they were unfamiliar with the whole concept.

Nowadays a 12 year old would not fall for it for one minute. We've become much better critics, for one. Familiarity breeds contempt, remember?

Life is what the least of us make most of us feel the least of us make the most of. [Willard Quine]

Feed that to your bot and see what it 'thinks'. :rolleyes: