I'd like to hear some opinions on this. Recently it seems to me that police across the US have really gone off the scale regarding abuse of authority.

I base this on the many personal accounts I have heard regarding police action that ranges from simple rudeness and obnoxiousness to outright brutality.

Today I heard an account from a VERY timid girl who was stopped for going 60 in a 55. Unfortunately, she did not have her insurance ID with her. (In my state you normally have 30 days to provide it) The unhappy officer made her get out of the car, DREW HIS WEAPON and forced her to spread 'em against the trunk. He then proceeded to write her a ticket for 70 MPH which she did not notice till later; of course she was in such shock that she did even read it until she got home.

There is absolutely no question that this is an unexaggerated account - and it is simply another in a long line of similar excesses I hear about all the time.

Do you have similar stories, and what is your opinion regarding what I see as the deterioration of professionalism in our police departments??

if things went as you said they did, then obviously this is unacceptable. but you always have to hear both sides of the story. also, do you know this girl personally or is this hearsay?

was she black?:D

Both good questions...

I know her very well. I work with her.
And no, she is not black, she's a short white girl that is about as meek a person as you might imagine.

So it sounds like you tend to think that there ISN'T a trend toward abuse of authority? Or that you don't think it's particularly relevant?

The unhappy officer made her get out of the car, DREW HIS WEAPON and forced her to spread 'em against the trunk.
Maybe he wanted to feel her up? Cops are pigs after all...

nope. where there is authority, there will be abuse (general rule of thumb)
smaller depts work well, larger doesnt. plenty of variables so.....

baltimore is the worst i hear. la sucks too

Police have to deal with rude, drunk, high, low, obnoxious, dangerous, belerigent people on a daily basis. They tend to see the worst "in" people because they deal daily with the "worst" of people.

Most police departments have a system for people to make complaints. Your friend should not hesitate to file a formal complaint.

Policemen aren't perfect. For the most part they start out as ordinary people who are trained to do an extraordinary job. Sometimes this does tend , over time, to give them a bad attitude.
twenty years ago the average police officer never even drew his gun in the line of duty during his entire career, with the rising crime rates it is now a common place event for their weapon to be drawn.

Most police departments have programs that allow civilians to do a "ride along" , and seeing is beleiving. At least it was for me.

http://www.unknownnews.net/indepth.html#police

If that's true watcher that's disgusting!!! That cop needs a fucking punch.

Originally posted by spookz
was she black?:D

You lose.

police across the US have really gone off the scale regarding abuse of authority

Well, first off, if you really want to get into this, maybe you should bring up a few popular cases. Going off on a rant about "my poor little friend who says ..." isn't going to accomplish much because, as otheadp said, we're only hearing one side of the story. Consider this from the officer's point of view: he's pulled her over for speeding. She may be a timid little girl, but she's in control of a two tonne vehicle. Maybe she was just timid, as you described, but is it possible this came across as nervousness? Is it also possible that she reached for her glove compartment before he asked her to produce her licence and insurance? (This could be perceived as going for a weapon.) Is it possible that her car matched a description of one that was recently involved in a chase?
Most of the time police won't remove someone from the vehicle unless they need to arrest the person, or if they need to search the vehicle. Did he search the vehicle? I'm not trying to justify what happened, I'm just saying that we're not hearing both sides of the story.

Perhaps we could bring up something recent in the news - say the recent "hung jury" case of that officer caught on tape slamming a youth against the back of a police car, or the arrest of about 200 rioters is Montreal who were allegedly protesting the WTO meeting.

There are thousands of police officers in North America, and all of the ones I know or have dealt with are upstanding people who are very professional. However there will always be a few bad apples and the media tend to jump on anything that looks in any way bad.

Well, first off, if you really want to get into this, maybe you should bring up a few popular cases.
Perhaps we could bring up something recent in the news

*AHEM*

<points to his earlier post>

Sorry to not have any info, but i was under the impression that a lot of police departments in the USA had had training with the army etc in countrer terrorism etc. and you only need to watch the coverage of protests etc in seattle etc etc to see how easily the police can get nasty.

Which is not an excuse to go random police bashing ok? My fatehr has retired from 30 years in the police, and my grandfather was the youngest chief constable in scotland many years ago, i can hopefully stand somewhere in the middle on all this.

Here in Arizona it seems almost common to hear about a car thief being shot dead, the police here use deadly force a little more freely than in other parts of the country. Weve got a reall cowboy for a state sheriff. Joe Arpaio likes to get his face in the paperse, he's done things like brilnging back chain gangs, putting female prizoners on web cams (god only knows why). Solving prison over crouding by making a "Tent city" for prizoners out in the desert... he kind of gets off on flashy extreem law enforcement.

re "AHEM"

The problem with using a few links is that only the bad incidents make the news. For every bad cop there are hundreds of good oneswho never make the news.

Who do we call when something goes bump in the night? Lets face it, we call the police. Even those who complain about the police call the police for help without hesitation.

http://www.odmp.org/yeardisp.php?year=2002

if things went as you said they did, then obviously this is unacceptable. but you always have to hear both sides of the story. also, do you know this girl personally or is this hearsay?

That will become clear after knowing the policemans history. hence its very important to lodge a complaint.

re "AHEM"

The problem with using a few links is that only the bad incidents make the news. For every bad cop there are hundreds of good oneswho never make the news. ... They are given the power and if they abuse it then that destroys society, thats why.

was she black?:DIf she was black it would have been a international news story.

Here in Arizona it seems almost common to hear about a car thief being shot dead, ...

Hmm, but I bet they didn't steal any more cars after that, huh?

I know many cops personally and I daresay I wouldn't be one if they paid me a gazillion dollars a year! They deal with the scum of the Earth every day, all day and they get no thanks from us for doing it. In fact, they get in the news ONLY when they do something "wrong".

I ride with them sometimes and you wouldn't believe the number of "violators" that they let go just because they don't want to cause the guy/gal so much trouble for violating some law. Sometimes they "fall for" the sob story and let them go without citations. Cops are mostly nice guys ...just like you and me.

How would you like a job where the newspaper published every single mistake you made? ...no matter how trivial?

Baron Max

I know many cops personally and I daresay I wouldn't be one if they paid me a gazillion dollars a year! They deal with the scum of the Earth every day, all day and they get no thanks from us for doing it. In fact, they get in the news ONLY when they do something "wrong".

Yeah, when was the last time anyone's ever said anything nice about cops in general who just do their damned jobs and do it right? Oh wait. . . don't we call them fucking heroes? We tend to hear about 'em when they screw up because someone gets beat or killed :p

How would you like a job where the newspaper published every single mistake you made? ...no matter how trivial?

I agree with you, most cops are good people and its tough dealing with human scum all the time, but honestly I don't hear about every trivial mistake they make. I only hear about it when someone is killed, like when they are performing a home invasion and accidentally get the wrong house and kill the occupants who were guilty of nothing. That was quite a shit storm a few years ago. And in places like Arizona, you don't feel particularly safe when a cop is around because we do hear about these mistakes happening, and our police departments have this cowboy attitude towards deadly force.

Everyone is concerned about security these days, and cops have a lot more wiggle room to abuse their power, I think it’s likely they are using it. As for the original post of this thread... what state was it in? In some places the city pays for things like highway construction by collecting traffic ticket quotas. If you have out of state plates in somewhere like Albe…rq…(the capital of New Mexico) you are asking to get ticketed no matter how slight the violation.

I agree with you, most cops are good people and its tough dealing with human scum all the time, ...

Yeah, I don't know how some of 'em can take ....day in and day out!

If you have out of state plates in somewhere like Albe…rq…(the capital of New Mexico) you are asking to get ticketed no matter how slight the violation.

But see ....notice what ye're saying there. Basically, you're saying that the police should be the judge and jury on SOME cases, yet NOT on others? How can you have it both ways? And that's exactly why people "hate" cops ..they can't see getting a lousy ticket for 4mph over the speed limit ('cause they're nice guys or something!), yet when they see a robbery and a shooting and a killing, the first thing everyone does is ask "Where the fuck were the cops when you need 'em?!"

We want everything to be perfect ...except in ourselves!

Baron Max

PS - Santa Fe is the capital ....and Albuquerque is how you spell Albuquerque! :)

I'd like to hear some opinions on this. Recently it seems to me that police across the US have really gone off the scale regarding abuse of authority.

I base this on the many personal accounts I have heard regarding police action that ranges from simple rudeness and obnoxiousness to outright brutality.

Today I heard an account from a VERY timid girl who was stopped for going 60 in a 55. Unfortunately, she did not have her insurance ID with her. (In my state you normally have 30 days to provide it) The unhappy officer made her get out of the car, DREW HIS WEAPON and forced her to spread 'em against the trunk. He then proceeded to write her a ticket for 70 MPH which she did not notice till later; of course she was in such shock that she did even read it until she got home.

There is absolutely no question that this is an unexaggerated account - and it is simply another in a long line of similar excesses I hear about all the time.

Do you have similar stories, and what is your opinion regarding what I see as the deterioration of professionalism in our police departments??

If she was that stupid to sign a ticket without reading it she deserves what she got. You know as well as I do that police don't draw their weapons unless they suspect someone has a weapon or their lives are in danger. it seems that IF the cop did pull his gun, which is highly doubtfull, he must have had a damn god reason to do so and she isn't telling you all of the story then.

Police are generally pretty good but as in life there are some that are really pricks that use authority to get their rocks off. I'd say that police in general don't use the force, guns, they have more than they do.

Overall, black officers are slightly likelier than white officers to kill a suspect in the line of duty. Indeed whites comprise 87 percent of all police nationwide, but account for only about 80 percent of homicides against criminal suspects, regardless of race. Meanwhile blacks, who constitute 11 percent of American police officers, are responsible for about 17 percent of homicides against criminal suspects.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3487

Reading the original post and the various responses to it made me look at some of the unexamined assumptions that support the various arguments.

One of these is that the only workable form of social organization available today is one based on the Roman model of civil law. The assumption is that the only options are either a society based on military or religious rule. All of these options require some institution(s) that act to enforce the authority of those who dominate that society.

The other given that all here seem to accept is that it is human or normal to abuse authority. With that given then the problem is not how to eliminate abuse, but how to limit and control it. Even those who are abused by those exercising that authority feel bound to respect their abusers and to make or accept excuses for their behavior. In the end it is we, the governed, who are at fault for the abuse. The society we value is the ultimate cause of the abuse, and it is inevitable.

My question is are these basic, unexamined assumptions, completely true. Are there alternative ways to view reality to organize societies?

I have to say that in my view around my home, in Ohio, cops are damned jerks that like to pick on people and abuse their power. Cops go speeding down the alleys in my town doing seventy with no lights, cars parked on the sides, etc. A couple years ago one of our cops was fired for not adequately performing his duty, because he would cruise the neighborhood trying to pick up underage girls, and another was fired for beating up a retarded kid. My friend was threatened with having his license revoked if he tried to take the person to court that caused his wreck and totaled his Blazer. I know a couple of good cops, but most cops (like most other people) enjoy causing trouble for others. Cops have pulled over people I know just to bother them. It is quite ridiculuos.

Today I heard an account from a VERY timid girl who was stopped for going 60 in a 55. Unfortunately, she did not have her insurance ID with her. (In my state you normally have 30 days to provide it) The unhappy officer made her get out of the car, DREW HIS WEAPON and forced her to spread 'em against the trunk. He then proceeded to write her a ticket for 70 MPH which she did not notice till later; of course she was in such shock that she did even read it until she got home.


My opinion...I don't believe you. Either your filling us full of shit or your lady friend is filling you full of shit. I'll graduate "pig school" in June and I'm a dispatcher with the local sheriffs office. I have done more ride alongs then I can count, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that your not going to get pulled over for doing 60 in a 55. At least not in America anyway.

Plus, the vast majority of squad cars now a day have dash cameras with microphones that activate automatically when the officer turns on his/her emergency lights. So for this officer to do this would be absolute career suicide as it would all be captured on video. Granted, they do not review the videos every day, but if a complaint is made, they will review the tapes.

So although I don't believe you, I do realize that this is a crazy world and crazy shit happens in this world. Tell your lady friend to make a complaint, they will review the tape, and if this ACTUALLY happened, that officer will be in deep trouble.

But I still don't believe you. GOOD LUCK!

-Kooter

i have been harrassed by police just for wearing black clothing. pulled over, searched, and harrassed for an hour because of the color of my clothing.

most police are just trying to make it through the day. however, in my hometown (population around 500,000), the police have a reputation for being corrupt. i have experienced this many times.

i have been harrassed by police just for wearing black clothing. pulled over, searched, and harrassed for an hour because of the color of my clothing.

Can you prove that allegation? If so, then you have a legal responsibility to take it to court. Otherwise, all I see is "hate the pigs" bullshit and senseless, unfounded, wild allegations.

Next time you have any problems, call out to someone who is "...wearing black clothing" and see how much help you get.

Baron Max

Good post, Kooter, thanks!

Baron Max

Ahhhh. Baron likes me!!!!! *sniff*

-Kooter

the police is no different from other professions
there are good cops, there are bad cops

the police must keep in mind that they are generally not liked
proof?
everyone is looking forward to their next traffic stop aren't they?

in all my years i have not met a corrupt cop.

in my dealings with cops and the justice system
i must say that they are fair and just

Well here in Germany if you were too talk bad to a police they can beat the shit out of you. I don't know if it's like that in America.
I don't know if the police are out of control. But whats really sad is when cops start doing crimes of there own. There the people we're supposed to be able too go too when we need help. Just recently this man, who is a cop, was raping this five year old. So yeah, some cops are out of control.

Well here in Germany if you were too talk bad to a police they can beat the shit out of you. I don't know if it's like that in America.
I don't know if the police are out of control. But whats really sad is when cops start doing crimes of there own. There the people we're supposed to be able too go too when we need help. Just recently this man, who is a cop, was raping this five year old. So yeah, some cops are out of control.

Do they have a legal right to touch anybody ?

i live in america
send some of those german cops over here
we'll teach them a lesson they won't soon forget

i live in america
send some of those german cops over here
we'll teach them a lesson they won't soon forget

No, I don't mind them. If you don't bug them they won't bug you.

No, I don't mind them. If you don't bug them they won't bug you.

So true. You can seriously go over there and drive like the biggest piece of shit on the planet and they won't give you a second look. I find that police in other countries are much more lenient than here in the U.S. It's such a relief too, here the police harass you for every little thing, and yet our crime rate is still through the roof. Amazing.

So true. You can seriously go over there and drive like the biggest piece of shit on the planet and they won't give you a second look. I find that police in other countries are much more lenient than here in the U.S. It's such a relief too, here the police harass you for every little thing, and yet our crime rate is still through the roof. Amazing.

Well when they drive like mad men they don't care because it's not a big deal. WE have the autobahn here and you can go as fast as you want pretty much.
I don't understand why America has so much crime. How can you be sure of that anyway? There are crazy people here as well.

...and yet our crime rate is still through the roof. Amazing.

Hmm, but just prior to that comment, you said, "I find that police in other countries are much more lenient than here in the U.S." I.e., if police in other countries turn their eyes to crime and don't report it, then their "crime rate" wouldn't show all of the crime that they didn't "see". Hell, if the police in the USA just didn't report any crime that they saw, we'd have a low crime rate, too!!

Baron Max

Hmm, but just prior to that comment, you said, "I find that police in other countries are much more lenient than here in the U.S." I.e., if police in other countries turn their eyes to crime and don't report it, then their "crime rate" wouldn't show all of the crime that they didn't "see". Hell, if the police in the USA just didn't report any crime that they saw, we'd have a low crime rate, too!!

Baron Max


I'm talking about the percentage of people being robbed, cars wrecks, etc not the number of reported crimes. I can leave my baggage on the street, leave, come back 15 minutes later and it will still be there. People drive like crap and yet hardly any accidents (unexplained paradox). Who knows, maybe the rest of the world is just better then us. *shrug*

I'm talking about the percentage of people being robbed, cars wrecks, etc not the number of reported crimes.

Well, if they're not reported, then how in hell do YOU know about so much about them?

Baron Max

Well, if they're not reported, then how in hell do YOU know about so much about them?

Baron Max

Well, because I've been there, many times? I have family in Germany, they live 5 hours outside Frankfurt (no I am not German if you were wondering). I've also been to Africa, worst drivers in the world, and yet no accidents. I don't know how it works, obviously there is some magic at work. :confused:

Well, because I've been there, many times? ... I've also been to Africa, worst drivers in the world, and yet no accidents.

So you've seen, with your own eyes, all the areas of both Europe and the entire continent of Africa, and you've made these criminal and accident observations, and then compared them all to the same observations that you, personally, witnessed in the USA? ...and from all of that exhaustive, and widespread personal observation, you've drawn your scientific conclusions?

How nice, and how utterly scientific.

Baron Max

So you've seen, with your own eyes, all the areas of both Europe and the entire continent of Africa, and you've made these criminal and accident observations, and then compared them all to the same observations that you, personally, witnessed in the USA? ...and from all of that exhaustive, and widespread personal observation, you've drawn your scientific conclusions?

How nice, and how utterly scientific.

Baron Max


Damn straight. :cool:

I see accidents like everyday here. I know, maybe U.S. drivers are in fact the worst drivers in the world. It would explain the discrepancy.

QuarkMoon, you'll make a great scientist someday.

Baron Max

I'm talking about the percentage of people being robbed, cars wrecks, etc not the number of reported crimes. I can leave my baggage on the street, leave, come back 15 minutes later and it will still be there. People drive like crap and yet hardly any accidents (unexplained paradox). Who knows, maybe the rest of the world is just better then us. *shrug*

There is a thing called "The Dark Figure of Crime". I don't know if this is a term my professors came up with or if some fancy scientist dude did, but the point is the same.

There is reported crime. This is self explanitory. All crimes that people report to police.

The dark figure of crime is the TRUE figure of crime. NOBODY knows this number. More crimes are not reported then crimes that are.

This is not just for America, this applies to all countries and communities.

Imagine if American police were more lenient like our German counterparts. You think the crime rate would actually drop? The REPORTED crime rate may possibly drop because people would realize that the police won't do anything about it. But I guarntee you that the actual amount of crime would rise.

QuarkMoon, you'll make a great scientist someday.

Baron Max


Yes! My life's ambition has been validated!




Not really but it sounds poetic so just go with it.

I've basically given up trying to argue with Baron Max. He's light years ahead of me. I'm glad others have seen the light as well.

Do they have a legal right to touch anybody ?

Yes, they can. They carry long black sticks.

DEFINITE YES! They no longer respond to my command. My devices have become useless trinkets.

the police's role was to protect the STATUS QUO........they ARE out of control. the friggers will come smashin thru your frony door if they think you are growing plants...YEH..plants they deem an 'enemy of the state'

we donna call them 'the filth' for nuthin!