everyone refers to humans as highly intelligent.
what have we done thats so great?
global warming?
the extinction of other species?
the destruction of each other?
the cruelty to our fellow living organisms?

please tell me one good thing the human race has done

I'm not really in the mood to bash all humans right this minute, though I do a lot of the time. But your question is a good one. You have to ask yourself "who or what we are doing the good for?"

For ourselves? Humanity? Survival of our race? There have been some good things, like cures for some diseases, vaccinations, expectations for longer life, and others. All this is relative though. Longer life, to me, is not a good thing because I suffer from major depression and don't really like living, as an expample of the relativity. Also, if we destroy ourselves someday, the verdict will be in. If we expect an Armageddon, we might just get it.

For our planet, the only one that we currently have? Have we done anything good? Maybe. I say maybe because we have at least recognized that we might have started to fuck things up (global warming, extinctions of animals, loss of wilderness areas, future shortage of potable water, etc.) and at least some of us are trying to reverse this. Some, however, don't give a shit and just want one more dollar or one more polluting SUV or one more house in Monaco.

For who or what are we trying to do good? Ourselves? Our planet? God? Who knows?

We still exist. Maybe that is good. Maybe not. The verdict is still out.

I'm not really in the mood to bash all humans right this minute, though I do a lot of the time. But your question is a good one. You have to ask yourself "who or what we are doing the good for?"

For ourselves? Humanity? Survival of our race? There have been some good things, like cures for some diseases, vaccinations, expectations for longer life, and others. All this is relative though. Longer life, to me, is not a good thing because I suffer from major depression and don't really like living, as an expample of the relativity. Also, if we destroy ourselves someday, the verdict will be in. If we expect an Armageddon, we might just get it.

For our planet, the only one that we currently have? Have we done anything good? Maybe. I say maybe because we have at least recognized that we might have started to fuck things up (global warming, extinctions of animals, loss of wilderness areas, future shortage of potable water, etc.) and at least some of us are trying to reverse this. Some, however, don't give a shit and just want one more dollar or one more polluting SUV or one more house in Monaco.

For who or what are we trying to do good? Ourselves? Our planet? God? Who knows?

We still exist. Maybe that is good. Maybe not. The verdict is still out.

so if two people beat someone up one apologized and one didnt that would be good?

and every other living thing has accepted death and disease but we kill others to cheat death thats good?

Art
Philosophy
Medicine
Science
Poetry
Dance
Invention
Literature
Architecture
Travel of all sorts using things not part of our body
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

Oh, and Beck's beer. Which I am currently enjoying. The best of what German's do best (asides from invading Poland).

so if two people beat someone up one apologized and one didnt that would be good? Who knows.
and every other living thing has accepted death and disease but we kill others to cheat death thats good? That's up to you to decide for yourself. Imo, I think there is no good or bad. Just human. I wonder too, sometimes, who decided what was good and bad. An ancient ruler hungry for power trying to condition his people in a way that benefited him, or some other ancient that saw the suffering of the people around him and tried to establish a way to alleviate that suffering? Who cares where it started? Make up your own mind, but realize that I, at least, have suffered when I have hurt others and when others have hurt me, either physically or emotionally or with regards to property rights.

Why have I suffered, though? One answer, because I have been taught that I should suffer in those instances. There are other answers though. As in, it hurts to be punched in the face. Knowing it hurts and if you have a "conscience," you will probably suffer if you do it to someone else, no matter what your reason for doing it.

I like the Golden Rule, though I don't believe in a god. Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

Art
Philosophy
Medicine
Science
Poetry
Dance
Invention
Literature
Architecture
Travel of all sorts using things not part of our body
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

Oh, and Beck's beer. Which I am currently enjoying. The best of what German's do best (asides from invading Poland).

This is what I was talking about in my first post. All of the above are human-centric, I think. Where are the above gonna take us as a species? Are the above gonna help us not destroy ourselves and our planet? What kind of a grade do you think we get right now as a species with regard to our potential for future survival? Objectively? Take all the good that you think we have done, take all the bad that we do, what kind of a grade would you give us? Me, I have no fucking clue. It does seem sometimes, though, that we are tottering on the brink of destruction.

As much as I tend to bash all humans as vicious, bloodthirsty, cruel, predatory animals, like Cottontop, I'm not in the mood tonight.

(see below)
everyone refers to humans as highly intelligent.
No, not everyone refers to ALL humans as highly intelligent. In fact, some people claim that most humans are dumb as a box of rocks!

what have we done thats so great?
For an answer to that, just look around yourself. Surely you can find one good thing within easy reach of right where ye're sitting right now.

global warming?
That might well be a natural cycle of the Earth. Remember, Earth has experienced many such natural cycles in the past ...and man wasn't even around at that time to blame it on!

the extinction of other species?
...but not all of all of the other species. We kept some around, remember?

the destruction of each other?
We ain't been "destructed" yet ...and may not ever be.

the cruelty to our fellow living organisms?
And we value our pets with almost worshipful love and devotion.

please tell me one good thing the human race has done.
Created my beautiful, wonderful niece. (And maybe, just maybe, a couple of other pretty nice people)

Humans basically suck giant donkey dick, but there really are a few, maybe ten or so out of the trillions, who can be/are pretty nice.

Baron Max

Cottontop3000:

Considering we have:

1. Raised life expectancy to 75 years on average in the civilized world.

2. Survived 50 years of nuclear standoff without a single nuclear strike.

3. Are on the verge of travelling the stars.

4. Are potentially on the verge of becoming immune to most major diseases of today.

5. Developing ways to clean the enviroment and sustain it on Earth, as well as to modify the natural world to better accept us.

So...in general, I'd probably give us a B+ in terms of objective survival capacity. I imagine that were there other intelligent beings, they'd have suffered similar to problems that we do.

The big picture sucks, but at least it's blurry and you can't make out the fine details, so it's not that bad. The little pictures tend to be OK as long as (once again) you don't look *too* close and get lost trying to sort it all out. People are basically trustworthy unless they're not. Beauty and joy and hope get a little tired after awhile, I know, but that's still no excuse to hate on the human race cause at the end of the day you've got to have something to strive for. Whatever it is for you is probably gonna be different than what it is for me; it's not usually very easy even to say what it is. We can't justify the existence of the human race because we (all together) constitute it, and since we can't even justify our own existences, what hope do we have for figuring out the whole big-picture purpose? But it helps me to think that we're all fundamentally interconnected, that to have hope and joy and beauty we have to have death and horror and hate and suffering. Bad experiences and good experiences can teach us or leave us ignorant, hurt us or help us up; but the truth is that the enlightened take things lightly, and that laughter probably encompasses one of the most fundamental truths of existence: we are hilarious contradictions, each and every one of us, and so is the human race, too. :P

Considering we have:.....

1. Raised life expectancy to 75 years on average in the civilized world.
Perhaps ...but that very thing has caused a undesired consequence of massive unemployment and hunger in most nations of the world, and enormous over-population in the world.

2. Survived 50 years of nuclear standoff without a single nuclear strike.
See note under #1 above

3. Are on the verge of travelling the stars.
Yeah, gotta' find somewhere to send all the damned people so we won't start eating the Earth itself due to over-population and hunger.

4. Are potentially on the verge of becoming immune to most major diseases of today.
See note under #1 above

5. Developing ways to clean the enviroment and sustain it on Earth, as well as to modify the natural world to better accept us.
None of it will work unless we curb the massive over-population that's occuring all over the world ...at a horrendous rate!

So...in general, I'd probably give us a B+ in terms of objective survival capacity. I imagine that were there other intelligent beings, they'd have suffered similar to problems that we do.
I think a B+ is pushing the grade horrendously! Perhaps a good solid D+ is more appropriate ...there's lots and lots of improvement to be made, and there's no indication that we're capable of it!

Baron Max

A paleontologist named Steven J. Gould made the observation that the reason our species is named Homo Sapien ('intelligent' or 'wise' man) is because we're doing the naming.

In other words, we're 'on top of the evolutionary scale' because we're drawing the pictures. Of course we're gonna put ourselves the highest.

Without another intelligent race to compare ourselves to, the only conclusion that can be drawn is: hope for the future. We have no standard to judge things by except the ones we create.

Man is, for better or for worse, the measure of all things.

Are we intelligent? I suppose we can only wait and find out. So long as we only have other creatures on Earth to compare ourselves against, then yes we are intelligent.

You would have to define intelligence to answer this.

Baron Max:

Perhaps ...but that very thing has caused a undesired consequence of massive unemployment and hunger in most nations of the world, and enormous over-population in the world.

"Massive unemployment"? In what area of the civilized world? Moreover, over-population is a problem which can be tackled by efficient building and new farming techniques. The Earth is not anywhere near "maximum yield", as it were.

See note under #1 above

Nuclear war would have done a lot more than simply solve our problems of employment and population.

Yeah, gotta' find somewhere to send all the damned people so we won't start eating the Earth itself due to over-population and hunger.

Yes.

None of it will work unless we curb the massive over-population that's occuring all over the world ...at a horrendous rate!

The notion that the Earth is overpopulated is alarmist nonsense.

Cottontop3000:

Considering we have:

1. Raised life expectancy to 75 years on average in the civilized world.

2. Survived 50 years of nuclear standoff without a single nuclear strike.

3. Are on the verge of travelling the stars.

4. Are potentially on the verge of becoming immune to most major diseases of today.

5. Developing ways to clean the enviroment and sustain it on Earth, as well as to modify the natural world to better accept us.

So...in general, I'd probably give us a B+ in terms of objective survival capacity. I imagine that were there other intelligent beings, they'd have suffered similar to problems that we do.


how many species life expectancys have we lowered to raise our own?

we wouldn't have to clean the environment if we hadnt ruined it

You would have to define intelligence to answer this.

but why are we more intelligent than them?

It takes only intelligence to destroy our planet but it takes intrelligence and wisdom to save it.

Intelligence itself has no obligation to being sane or rational or reasonable but for it to be sustainably successful it must have wisdom.

but if we were intelligent and wise we wouldn't of started destroying it ib the first place

since when were humans saving the world other than a few radical humanists

so the question is more about wisdom or lack there of and not just intelligence.

I am sure most would agree that whilst we seem to be intelligent we are certainly lacking somewhat in the wisdom department.

it is wrong to blame 'all humans' for lack of inteligence and wanton ignorant trashing of earth, nd it is an utter inhsultto many PEOPLES who have also been t victims

it is rather then a MINDSET that has caused the problems. and te mindset is when certain humans mind became psychologically separated from their bodies/emotions/feelings/INTELLIGENCE and Earth

This problem still continues and is now under the guise of materialistc science!

maybe this is a little off topic or at least an aside but:

Just an observation that may be flawed but any way:

Years ago when people built up their assets, such as house and land and wealth they would do so knowing full well that their material worth would survive them and be passed onto the next generation. Houses were built that have stood in some instances for 1000 years. Castles and other landmarks, major infrastructure etc etc......the idea of the time was permanence and generational survivorship.
Since early 1900's this generational survivorship of material assets had trended downwards. Things that are built or created becoming increasingly dispensible. Planned obsolescence, throwaway commodities etc....trending more and more to a short term investment rather that the earlier tendancy for long term generational investment.

The reason I bring this up is that humans have evolved in to a race that plans only for the short to intermediate term and not for the longer term these days.
It's like "f*ck the future lets party now and pay the price later.The boom in credit cards is a good indicator, real wealth is virtually non-existant, most being tenuous and precarious when compared to the real wealth of prior to 1900.
It is true that wealth was not shared by the majority but it certainly isn't now either.

The thing is in the lack of vision that seems to have evolved. Not planning or seeing past the next 10 years.

The throw away society lacks as Duendy has stated "earth" having emotionally detatched themselves from a future beyond their mortality. The attitude is that we have no real responsibility for the well fare of the next generations. This means that our survival has become open to sudden change as there is no longterm sustainability built in, we have virtually mortgaged our future generations before they are even born.
This reflects badly in our attitude towards a sustainable global eccology, and long term needs of the planets diversity and biology. Sort of like so what if we loose 1000 species every year [ or what ever ] The attitude being "Oh well, I wont be around to see the mess we (I) have made of it"

Any way just a few wild thoughts and casual observations, which are in no way comprehensive......

maybe this is a little off topic or at least an aside but:

Just an observation that may be flawed but any way:

Years ago when people built up their assets, such as house and land and wealth they would do so knowing full well that their material worth would survive them and be passed onto the next generation. Houses were built that have stood in some instances for 1000 years. Castles and other landmarks, major infrastructure etc etc......the idea of the time was permanence and generational survivorship.
Since early 1900's this generational survivorship of material assets had trended downwards. Things that are built or created becoming increasingly dispensible. Planned obsolescence, throwaway commodities etc....trending more and more to a short term investment rather that the earlier tendancy for long term generational investment.

The reason I bring this up is that humans have evolved in to a race that plans only for the short to intermediate term and not for the longer term these days.
It's like "f*ck the future lets party now and pay the price later.The boom in credit cards is a good indicator, real wealth is virtually non-existant, most being tenuous and precarious when compared to the real wealth of prior to 1900.
It is true that wealth was not shared by the majority but it certainly isn't now either.

The thing is in the lack of vision that seems to have evolved. Not planning or seeing past the next 10 years.

The throw away society lacks as Duendy has stated "earth" having emotionally detatched themselves from a future beyond their mortality. The attitude is that we have no real responsibility for the well fare of the next generations. This means that our survival has become open to sudden change as there is no longterm sustainability built in, we have virtually mortgaged our future generations before they are even born.
This reflects badly in our attitude towards a sustainable global eccology, and long term needs of the planets diversity and biology. Sort of like so what if we loose 1000 species every year [ or what ever ] The attitude being "Oh well, I wont be around to see the mess we (I) have made of it"

Any way just a few wild thoughts and casual observations, which are in no way comprehensive......

i could not agree with you more

indeed...

Non-Logical-Idea-Guy:

how many species life expectancys have we lowered to raise our own?

As a whole, we have caused the death of several species, yes. But animals under human care live longer and healthier than in the wild.

we wouldn't have to clean the environment if we hadnt ruined it

We need to impact the enviroment to prosper.

Will science be able to save us from the problems it creates?

Can we overcome the self-destructive aspect of our nature, which is at least as responsible for our 'intelligence' as our creativity?

Conservation and ecology are two words that hardly have any meaning for most people and especially governments and multi national corporations. Until these words are taken seriously by the people that count, ie, governments and corporations and measures are taken to incorporate these concepts into all types of industry worlwide, then whatever individuals do of their own volution, is so miniscule that it really won't make any difference to the global effects of the crimes inflicted on this planet.

Non-Logical-Idea-Guy:



As a whole, we have caused the death of several species, yes. But animals under human care live longer and healthier than in the wild.

me))))))pwhich meansprecisely what? tat Nature was waiting for certain humansto destroy thousands of species and domesticate. always i here te argument from materialists that life spans are longer now. yours is the first i've heard where animals are mentioned in that calculation
what about freedom, wildness, BALANCE? whatis thisc;ining to life? is it fear of death? these aren't rhetorical questions. i am asking you.
IF say humans desire to lie longer and longer and etc, andmore numbers of escalate and escalate etc etc, what do think will happen?


We need to impact the enviroment to prosper.
who is tis 'we' who impacts the environment so as to 'prosper'?? at the expense of WHO? the answer is in the question!

who is tis 'we' who impacts the environment so as to 'prosper'?? at the expense of WHO?

Gee, Duendy, that's easy! Anyone who eats food!

Plowing the ground to plant food crops impacts the environment. Killing a cow to have a steak impacts the environment. Burning wood to stay warm impacts the environment. Cutting down trees to build a shelter impacts the environment. ....need I go on??

The only way that I know to eat and NOT impact the environment is to pick up fruit that has fallen from a tree ...and other such "gathering" techniques. And how many people could that method support?

Baron Max

deep within, all humans are good. humans are the most intelligent creatures on earth. humans do stupid things because they have their own mind. ants are almost perfect because their brain is not advanced enough to go against the law which controls nature and them. atoms are even more perfect. humans have a lot intelligence but they cannot control it yet. when we know the self completely, like ants and atoms do, we can be what we really are, at human level.

deep within, all humans are good.

I disagree. And my reasoning is this, think about it: The reason society has rules and laws is because many, many humans aren't "good". The more laws and rules that society enacts is a sure sign of the "goodness" of their members.

Think of rules and laws as the cages for humans ...in the same way as we have cages in our zoos ...to keep the animals from killing each other!

Imagine, if you can, human society removing all laws ...what do you think that you'd have? Think about riots and looting, etc. And after you've imagined all of that, can you still say that "...all humans are good."?

Baron Max

humans become evil because of circumstances and things that happen to them. hitler wasn't evil in reality, he had a bad childhood which made him evil. humans become evil because their mind is too much for them to control.

And after you've imagined all of that, can you still say that "...all humans are good."?

yes, deep within.

Gee, Duendy, that's easy! Anyone who eats food!

me::::::animals eat food. there is abalace. or was to the stupid human mindset arose that killed sense ofbalance

Plowing the ground to plant food crops impacts the environment. Killing a cow to have a steak impacts the environment. Burning wood to stay warm impacts the environment. Cutting down trees to build a shelter impacts the environment. ....need I go on??

me:::::of course we got to eat, haveshelter etc, like any animals. but there are stupid and intelligent ways to DO it. THAT is what is being explored. NOT justifying the escalating stupidity which is getting worse.

The only way that I know to eat and NOT impact the environment is to pick up fruit that has fallen from a tree ...and other such "gathering" techniques. And how many people could that method support?

me:::oh dont be so ruddy simplistic fewlla. heard of permaculture, sustainability? etcetera? probably not

Baron Max
))))))))))))))))))x(((((((((((((((((

People only think that others want to harm them, so they defend themselves already before it happens, which leads to hatred and war. It is not really the outer things which affect us, but what we have within us. If we learn to control ourselves, no outer things can harm us, we will stop the inner process and nothing happens to us.

deep within, all humans are good. humans are the most intelligent creatures on earth.

me:::::Some are intelliegent. not MORE than. can you smell like a dog? isn't that sens of a dog intelligence that is better than your scent scense? doesn't an eagle havebetter sight? etc...dont be struttin about

humans do stupid things because they have their own mind. ants are almost perfect because their brain is not advanced enough to go against the law which controls nature and them. atoms are even more perfect. humans have a lot intelligence but they cannot control it yet. when we know the self completely, like ants and atoms do, we can be what we really are, at human level.
hmmmm, you seem to contradict yourself on one hand you saywe are most intelligent. on other that even atoms are more intelligent. make yer mind up!

me:::::Some are intelliegent. not MORE than. can you smell like a dog? isn't that sens of a dog intelligence that is better than your scent scense? doesn't an eagle havebetter sight? etc...dont be struttin about

what is intelligence? intelligence isn't about senses. animals don't think consciously.

hmmmm, you seem to contradict yourself on one hand you saywe are most intelligent. on other that even atoms are more intelligent. make yer mind up!

it's hard to explain. contradictions do not exist. ants do everything perfect but they can't express themselves as much as humans, so they are not as intelligent. ants have a primitive brain so they can't be more stupid than they are, humans can express lower levels, they can kill other humans although humans are usually not allowed to do so. ants always obey the laws, they can never do wrong. they do everything perfect because they don't have consicous mind.

we both define INTELLIGENCE differently. by intelligence i am meaning the continuum of Intelligence of planet Earth as organism and eco systems as intelligent in teir own right......we are part of this dynamic intelligent unfoldin enfolding interelated pattern......you seem to focus on human 'intelligence'--as being somethng superior/inferior?....your not clear .......but what aint intelligent is a mindset which cuts itself off from its own roots

you seem to focus on human 'intelligence'--as being somethng superior/inferior?

the same intelligence is in all things, but because of our brains, we can express a larger aspect of that intelligence.

.......but what aint intelligent is a mindset which cuts itself off from its own roots

yey, you are intelligent and i am not? typical pattern seen in all things, which makes the world exist.

the same intelligence is in all things, but because of our brains, we can express a larger aspect of that intelligence.

me:::so can another animal express a larger part than you can


yey, you are intelligent and i am not? typical pattern seen in all things, which makes the world exist.
no. its killin the fukin world!

me:::so can another animal express a larger part than you can

impossible, only another human could express itself more than me. animals have feelings but they don't have thoughts, they can't put their feelings and thoughts into words and express them self consciously.

no. its killin the fukin world!

so why do you want to kill the world? ie. why do you want to say you are right and others are wrong?

when we know the self completely, like ants and atoms do, we can be what we really are, at human level.


Like, ants and atoms really know their selves! Like, next time you want something explained to you properly, just ask an atom, or an ant. :p

I've always loved ants, and the way they organize themselves. There is something about them that just intrigues me. Moreso than bees.

Insects, animals and all living things do their best to survive on this planet. They unwittingly destroy and unwittingly create things, which help each other life form to carry on doing their thing, but because all these life forms don't have too much intelligence, their powers are limited. The difference with humans, is that they have so much intelligence that their power is overwhelming.

But, let's be fair; after millions of years of evolution, it's only in the past hundred years or so that humankind has discovered the kind of technology that on one hand has helped them to survive in an unprecedentedly amazingly comfortable way hitherto and on the other, has taken its toll of the natural world, to the point that even nature has been affected.

The power of humans is truly formidable, but I think that slowly, an awareness of the results of our actions is beginning to form and beginning to sink in in some quarters at least and even though we have a long way to go to put things right, our intelligence will eventually pull us through. Because, at the end of the day or even at the 11th hour, we will realise that without a healthy and ecologically balanced planet, our chances of survival will be diminished to th Nth degree.

Tablarhythm, ;) , do you think that anyone with a lot of money and power has an escape route planned for the day that the earth may be destroyed, such as a spacecraft and equipment on standby that will enable a few humans to escape Earth and start over on the Moon or Mars? Recently, I've been wondering about this.

P.S. I like your viewpoint about human power. It is formidable. But can we handle that power, in your opinion? I really think that the verdict is still out.

Escape, to what? There is nothing on the moon or Mars or any other planet that would enable even one family to survive. I'm sure there are people rich enough to have a rocket at their disposal but then what? They'd have to rely on the limited supplies contained within the spacecraft and then they die.

The super rich won't have to leave the planet; they'll just change location on it. They could build whole eco-systems underground or inside a mountain, or even under the sea, if they have to; the technology exists, and with enough money, they could do whatever they wanted, in a very short space of time.

The problem is, that for the majority of the rich world there really is no problem. Materialists don't give a fuck about the extermination of animal species, they don't give a fuck that energy supplies will run out eventually, they don't give a fuck that the meat, fish and vegetables they eat are all tainted with chemicals and heavy metals, as long as they're there on the table; they've got drugs and doctors to put them right when they get sick, but who worries about getting sick, it never happens to you does it?

The people in power have analysts that tell them that the shit won't really hit the fan for maybe 60 years, or 100 years or even longer, and even then, the shit will hit the poorest first, so why should they worry?

This reminds me of an episode of the "Simpsons" where by Homer is upset that he has slaughtered all the buffalo, crying out:

"I have wiped out all the Buffalo!! What have I done, What have I done?"

Bart Simpson pipes up and says
"No you haven't Homer, the last two are over there"

Where upon Homer lets loose two shots from his rifle and kills the two last remaining Buffalo.
And then cries out:

"I have wiped out all the Buffalo!! What have I done, What have I done?" :(

duendy:

me))))))pwhich meansprecisely what? tat Nature was waiting for certain humansto destroy thousands of species and domesticate. always i here te argument from materialists that life spans are longer now. yours is the first i've heard where animals are mentioned in that calculation
what about freedom, wildness, BALANCE? whatis thisc;ining to life? is it fear of death? these aren't rhetorical questions. i am asking you.
IF say humans desire to lie longer and longer and etc, andmore numbers of escalate and escalate etc etc, what do think will happen?

Nature wasn't "waiting" for anything, but it is our perogative to kill and domesticate any animal we come pon.

Freedom, wildness, and balance are meaningless terms.

Why should we not cling to life? If we are not alive, we cannot enjoy.

What do I think will happen when humans live longer and have more numbers? We'll figure out new ways to house our populations, as well as expand to other worlds.

who is tis 'we' who impacts the environment so as to 'prosper'?? at the expense of WHO? the answer is in the question!

Everyone is the "we". You impact the enviroment. I impact the enviroment. Joe Schmo impacts the enviroment. At the expense of who? Of no one.

Escape, to what?

To escape a nuclear holocaust or a raging planet out of equilibrium or a devastating attack by aliens. :D When I said "spacecraft and equipment," by equipment I was encompassing what would be necessary to live on the Moon or Mars. Hydroponic equipment, oxygen synthesizers, water purifiers, dirt, whatever. I don't see why these few humans couldn't build an underground eco-system on the Moon or Mars, or a moon of Saturn, if they took the basics needed to start one. Maybe that's not possible yet, I don't know. Maybe it is. But shouldn't we have an escape route planned, just in case we somehow throw our planet out of whack? Shouldn't we at least be thinking about it?

impossible, only another human could express itself more than me. animals have feelings but they don't have thoughts, they can't put their feelings and thoughts into words and express them self consciously.

me><><(when you dream images....are you thinking? what you say?


so why do you want to kill the world? ie. why do you want to say you are right and others are wrong?
why do YOU??........whati am saying is is that you seem to justify the mindset that cuts itself off from its roots. haven't you said in anoter threadyou feel 'trapped' in Nature 'crucified between space an time'?...that is what i mean. to explore that sense of unease in Nature. NOt to justify it

I don't see why these few humans couldn't build an underground eco-system on the Moon or Mars, or a moon of Saturn, if they took the basics needed to start one. Maybe that's not possible yet, I don't know. Maybe it is. But shouldn't we have an escape route planned, just in case we somehow throw our planet out of whack? Shouldn't we at least be thinking about it?

The logistics and the costs of attempting something like that would be insurmountable. I doubt that we have the necessary technology for the physical constructions and even if we did, it would be almost impossible to cart all the heavy equipment and the sheer manpower required to pull off such a feat. We're talking hundreds if not thousands, of return trips.

Then, say by some miracle that we managed to build this facility; how big do you think we could make it, I mean for how many people? Keep in to account that to grow enough food and to produce enough resources for each soul it could require hectares of space. It would also take a massive space for all the hardware needed to artificially produce and store electricity and water. There's probably a myriad things I'm not even taking into account here, which makes the problem 1000 times more difficult to solve.

Anyway, assume that we did it; we built this underground self-sufficient city on another planet. Assume that it's big enough to cater for a few dozen, or even a few hundred people at a cost of trillions of dollars and assume that we have dozens of spacecraft always on standby to enable the chosen few to escape in case of a terminal calamity. Then what?

Once there, the people would never be able to leave. Reproduction would need to be strictly controlled, as the place wouldn't be able to take more than the designated population. There'd be no heavy industries, no more technological progress, no more building of anything, no fuel for the spacecraft.

Assume that everything works fine and is upkept with simple maintenance for a number of decades, until there is a major problem with the structure, or some vital equipment. When that happens, it will beckon the end of that world also, because it would be impossible to keep enough materials and equipment to carry out major refurbishment or repairs indefinetly.

At the end of the day, would there be a point for this whole exercise?