lately I've been trying to decide where is stand on the issue of homosexuality......so my biggest question is why are some people gay? do they choose to be? are they born that way? does an event in the persons past affect their orientation?

what do you think?

I think they can be made. not that they all are. but to say that experience and enviroment could have no influence on you is a bit much.

sexual preference is decided well before pubity and no one knows WHY

but if its decided BEFORE we know what sex is it cant really be a choice now can it?

plus the fact that in animals the % of pop who are homosexual is the same sort of says its not really like a group of people liking head or whips and chains

It's basically genes, because you can't just choose not to have your body aroused by women. These people(I think) actually can't enjoy sex with women, or vice versa. The man can't get hard from seeing a naked woman...

It would have to be an extreme environmental influence, maybe molestation or drugs? Of course, there are probably many who can have sex with women, just choose not too, but I wouldn't call them genuine homosexuals. They are bisexual.

Researchers believe it's stayed around because the gene has a positive affect on one gender(increased fertility) and the homosexual affect on the other. I sometimes think of a gene that causes a woman to be more feminine, and when in a man it makes him feminine.

There are no choices. Every decision you make is based on your genes, or your previous environmental influence.

I would suggest that all men are inalienably created equally. Just as two humans with the same DNA will differ substantially in outcome through a wide variety of factors. Men traditionally decided to become homosexual because they fulfill a criteria that we and they deem to be that which consistent of homosexual orientation. Although now days the activation energy seems to have decreased substantially and the decision to engage doesn't seem to require an identity crisis but an adventurous spirit.
In respect of religious standpoint i would suggest that you are free and correct to despise the act however do not make any judgements negative or otherwise on the persons, they know not what they do.

I OBJECT to that

just because im aroused by BOTH sides doesnt make it any more of a choice than anyone else

do you CHOSE to be aroused by red heads AND blonds?

edit to add the REST of the sentance, god i hate computers

Well that's just great, Anthony. I'm glad you've provided such empircal evidence as "I DISAGREE BECAUSE I'M BI!"

Has it been proven that gayness is genetic?

Tyler he implied that BECAUSE I’m attracted to both sides then unlike "true" homosexuality i did chose to be the way i am and that’s just crap

if its not i would invite him to BACK IT UP

better?

glad to see the little things are all you care about:mad:

Asguard...use caps, spelling, etc. Please?

Not all homosexuality is biologically/genetically originated, but there is very good evidence that it can be. All embryos start out being female. At 4-6 weeks vast amounts of testosterone are released (or not), making the embryo male (remaining female). Depending on the amount of testosterone released, the "brain wiring" may result one way or the other - too little testoserone in a male embryo and you get a female behaviour, which can include tendency to homosexuality. Too much testosterone in a female gives the opposite result. This will be crucial in adolescence, when the body is awashed by a second wave of hormonal release.

Experiments have been made with rats. If early in the development of the embryo testosterone is suppressed, you get some males developing female behaviour, nesting, etc. If testosterone is suplied in large amounts, you get some of the females behaving like males, aggressive, trying to cover other females, etc. This only works early in the development of the brain, if you fiddle with testosterone later it makes no difference.

Rats are not "deviant beings with anti-social behaviour". They are just rats, responding to their "instincts". Homosexuality, and particularly transsexuality, can probably result from some weird overlust, but I think a lot of it is simply a result of a biological condition.

Circe,

There is also another unfortunate aspect of the same development process, that of hermaphrodites. These are people that have both sex organs, and quite often neither are properly formed. Other body parts tend to be biased towards one gender or the other. When detected at birth surgeons have often performed ghastly surgery in an attempt to force the gender one way or the other only to find that as the child grows they had made a horrible mistake.

This is nature at work, an often repugnant process, or is it God's work?

I've often wondered about hermaphrodites.
From what I've read, we all start off as hermaphrodite beings.

Here's is the relevant quote:

"If there's a Y-chromosome, then the testes will make Muellerian Inhibition Substance, the female will be suppressed, and the male will develop. Without a Y-chromosome, the testis cannot make Muellerian Inhibition Substance and the fetus goes on as a female". - From an article ©1999 Gerard M. DiLeo, M.D.

I don't think God have anything to do with that.
;)

Asguard, are you objecting to me or Doing Words? I don't really understand your argument?

I said that a genuine homosexual really doesn't get pleasure or isn't attracted to women. Part of the reason I say this is because I've heard of men who have been tormented by their feelings their whole life, and really can't just make the choice to be heterosexual, at all. Those are true homosexuals. That's why they hide in the "closet." They feel attracted to other men, not women.

Ok, Asguard, I read it over again and now I understand what you're saying, and I guess there is a middle ground there. I sort of get the feeling that, influenced hard enough by society or something, many of us could become bisexual, but there are also true bisexuals. Still, you're not really homosexual... that means sex with the same sex, only.

Just as two humans with the same DNA will differ substantially in outcome through a wide variety of factors.

Actually, two identical twins are remarkably similiar when they've grown up separated, with the same mental illnesses, ect. Got that from some psychology book. They found that two separated twins still both had obssesive-compulsive disorder, and very similiar likes and dislikes.

Thinking about Doing Words post, though, I'm inclined to think that he is right, and that it's turning into a social trend. Maybe the number of homosexuals out there is just exaggerated by media attention, or a lot of true homosexuals are coming out of the closet, though. Not sure.

i think you are talking sexual abuse

that has nothing to do with preferance and happens to girls as well, they break down under the abuse and think thats what they WANT

its called something like stockhome syndrome

Balder1,

I believe it takes considerable courage to 'come' out especially if you live in an environment where such a choice is not common. I also suspect that a much higher number would choose not to 'come out' because of the perceived societal pressure and stigma associated with the status. I believe many simply stay single rather than risk discovery of their true desires.

I'm sure there are far more gays and potential gays around than the media portrays. Homosexuality is also very common in the animal world, which indicates that such actions are not unnatural. Although I don't hold much respect for things that are claimed to be natural and therefore must be good.

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

i have always found it strange that homsexuality which IS in nature = bad, where things like whips and chains ect and even just head ect is ok

I read a psychology article once that stated that everyone is naturally Bi. But instincts tell you to ignore the homosexual side of it (to promote reproduction obviously), not to mention society, but it's there for all of us. This is just what I read.

I read a psychology article once that stated that everyone is naturally Bi. But instincts tell you to ignore the homosexual side of it (to promote reproduction obviously), not to mention society, but it's there for all of us. This is just what I read.

i'd like to know the reference on that one:bugeye:

i'd like to know the reference on that one

Freud.

ahhh, Freud. he had an interesting take on human sexuality. to say the least.

I hope no one minds my asking, but who cares?

Fish swim, birds don't (well most). Some people prefer their own gender, some don't (some like both). I hate homosexuality debates.

Yes, but people study why fish swim and birds fly. No one's arguing homosexuality as right or wrong here, we're just asking why.

Notme,

That's fine, but many religionists believe that homosexuality is a choice and is bad/evil.

If it is natural/normal and is just a part of biology then where does that leave those religious doctines that encourage persecution of that group of people?

Re: Circe

I'm glad to see someone else talking about testosterone. A recent TLC series on human reproduction included a fair-sized segment investigating the case of a woman whose body just didn't seem to operate right. Never had a period, was tall and not quite proportioned as we would expect a female, and so forth. Turns out that she is a male by genetics--XY. She is a female by result. As explained in the program, humans at conception are female. The Y chromosome itself is not enough to create a male. The theory offered to explain this woman's condition is that her gestation lacked a key dose of testosterone that apparently acts as a catalyst to male development. With nothing to compel the XY to finish the transformation from female to male, she remained structurally female. I found that bit quite fascinating.

Re: Everyone's Bi

Okay, did anyone ever see a cheap but hilarious 1990 comedy called Book of Love (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0099166)? I choose this film merely because it has a great example of what I'm talking about.

Jack and his buddies, left for a night together while the mothers play canasta or some-such, start calling through their black book of girls, getting turned down left and right. A couple of drinks go down, and they're belting out "Earth Angel". Jack raises a toast, and passes out. As he comes to, the camera fades in to show the other boys gathered in a huddle, calling out numbers and laughing. They are measuring and comparing their penis lengths.

Now, the thing about it is that none of them would probably consider themselves gay. Even now, in 2003 (as compared to the '50s, when the film was set), most guys I know who ever did that would not consider themselves remotely homosexual. I actually took part in my own penis contest when I was ... 13, I think ... in a Lutheran church of all places. Having had, oh, four or five men in ten years, I can guarantee you that I am the most bisexually- or homosexually-persuaded of that lot. I doubt my comrades would consider themselves gay. Yet there is no denying that there was a certain sense of sexuality about the ritual.

How many proclaimed heterosexuals do I know who, when asked directly, will falter and retreat from the question of whether they ever, in their childhood, masturbated in front of a male friend? It scares them to admit it, because they never considered themselves gay or bi. Yet such rituals are part of growing up for a good many heterosexual males.

The thing is that sexuality is at least part a matter of social conditioning. Think of the poor kid in the shower with the random erection when you were in seventh or eighth grade. Seriously--you can't control your first boners; they just happen. The poor sap's name was Melvin, and he was regarded as a raging faggot from that day forward. How he ended up is beyond me. But I can also say that one of the reasons I tried men was because the concept wasn't foreign to me. I've said before that people tell me--as opposed to ask me--that I'm gay. I was all of 7 years old the first time I was smeared as a faggot. Seriously, live with it for 12 or so years and the opportunity seems almost natural when it presents itself. Of course, a fifth of Beam, some Monarch rum, and a few beers also help the situation, and getting busted mid-fellatio by campus security gives you a great story to tell your friends.

Naturally I fretted about the situation for a long time. My high school sweetheart, when we finally got the time and geography to hang out together again, would regularly take me to gay clubs, and--having recognized her lesbian side--promised that we could still get married if I underwent a gender reassignment.

What would have made it easier, though, during that period, would have been to know that my family wouldn't have cared. Of course, I don't think they would, but I didn't find that out until a couple of years ago, when my mother lamented that my brother and I were avoiding settling down and having kids. "Even if you're gay," she told me once, "I just want you to be happy."

It was a greater relief than I can express.

However, I never did go out and start trolling for a male partner.

I've long decided it doesn't matter to me, although my heterosexual sex life deteriorated so badly before my daughter was conceived that I was surprised to fertilize at all. I could get laid almost any time I wanted (save when we were separated at work), but masturbation was actually more pleasurable. (I don't know, maybe some guys like a woman to roll over, present her back, and expect you to just hump away on dead weight. But, of course, you have many limits. "Like this. Not like that. You're in too far ....")

But, I digress.

The point being is that for 22 of my 29 years, I have been presumed gay by many people around me. After a while, you start to believe it.

In addition to gradual conditioning, life trauma can have that effect. I know many lesbians who simply don't appreciate the dynamics of heterosexuality because men frequently hurt them. Now, to keep this as part of the religion forum, I can definitively say that if God did not want a rape to trigger negative associations to heterosexuality, then God would not have designed the human brain to behave in such a manner.

Oh, wait, God praises the sexual abuse of women in the Bible. Hmph. Don't know what to tell you about that.

But few people wake up one morning and make a quick decision to become homosexual. And if they do, I think there might be a chemical reason for it in the brain. After all, one day when I was about 20, I randomly decided I liked leaf spinach. Mind you, I'm an anti-vegetarian; I despise raw vegetables, and cannot eat very many of them cooked. Never ate a salad in my life until I was 19 and choked down iceburg lettuce and a house dressing because there was no way I was going to screw up the date I was on. And then one day, I had a sudden craving. And it wasn't for something mysterious in the sense that I didn't know what it was I wanted. As a cigarette smoker, I can tell you that the sudden need to find spinach and consume it right freaking now set on like a nicotine fit. Such is the nature of brain chemistry. It is not beyond my imagination to conceive of some poor sap waking up one morning and, for the first time in his life, needing dick right freaking now, and not having a clue why.

So says my two cents.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Cris,
I was actually trying to state the same thing, but did a horrible job at doing so :confused:

There is no such word as Homo-Sexual unless you change the definition of sexual which is something we have never done because the two connotationns are similar.
For home sexual to be valid we must also validate the futile use of reproductive organs.

i think that you are confusing sex with fertilization.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cris
Homosexuality is also very common in the animal world, which indicates that such actions are not unnatural.

I'm sorry man, but that's complete nonsence. :rolleyes:

Love

Jan Ardena.

Its determined by hormonal exposed during a very crucial time of fetal development. It has been proven in lab rats and monkey that sexual preference can be controlled by fetal hormone exposure. There was also some evidence that there is a sex determining pon in the medulla that’s shape is very determining of sexual preference. Homosexuals have the pon shaped like that of members of the opposite sex… thus making them sexually prefer member of there own sex. I do not believe anyone has the choice to be gay or have gay thoughts. Most prisoners that butt rape each other usually are thinking about women while they are doing it make them nothing more but very desperate heterosexuals.

I don't know how common it is, but homosexuality certainly exists in the animal world. It's probably nature's way of population control.


One thing I've read somewhere though - gay animals are never exclusively homosexual, they're always bisexual.

Its about 1-2% of the human population. What are bisexuals religiously? Wrong, right, ok???

Jan,

Homosexuality is also very common in the animal world, which indicates that such actions are not unnatural.

I'm sorry man, but that's complete nonsence.Did you not read the web link I include in that post? Are you saying all that analysis is invalid? I'll give the link again for you.

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

So spurious monkey when i am having an intercourse with my wife it is not sex and it is fertilisation. I think you may be confusing the word sex exactly as i suggested in my post. If people are going to try and rationalise homosexuality by some biological difference.
1. they are stating an imbalance or abnormality of some sorts which can easily be countered by an intelligent species
2 they might have found a biological difference amidst Homosexuals but none can claim that all humans that share this inbalance or difference are categorically Gay.
3 even if their existed a biological or genetic difference between hetero's and gay's
it still would not mean that they need to have anal sex(think about it)

I am tired of all these ridiculous justifications of what is very obvious.
If you for some reason need to insert your penis or any part of your body into the garbage shut of another you are simply not doing anything natural.

Also don't forget animals aren't intelligent for gods sake just because your dog is trying to mount your friends doesn't make what you are doing natural. Perhaps if dogs had a Higher IQ than us then maybe. . Some animals kill their Young or Kill their mates would that rationalise domestic abuse.

I personally only oppose the act, i consider gays generally to be nicer people per capita then hetero counterparts

Finally understand without me passing judgement on the people wether wrong or right moral or immoral a decision to practice homosexuality is one that is in defiance of the general populous. I think this may be the largest contributing factor. Some of us act in defiance by piercing some by clothing some by music and some even by working hard. We all dislike the world we live in so to some defiance makes sense even if it is not directly opposing the things we disdain.

I ask you were does you urge to @#$% come from? Does it come from your high conscience or is it just there below everything else? Sexual desire comes from the low brain stem and the medulla, it pre-wired and can’t be change… no one can make the decision to like having sex with something there not wired to like.