I was watching a movie the other day and something was mentioned that really made me think...

What if time is an illusion created by Satan to make us forget about God and Jesus? I'm agnostic/athiest and one of the many reasons I don't believe in a God is cause the last time there was ever (supposedly) evidence of a God was like 1000 years ago from what we read in the bible. But what if it's all an illusion. Jesus is still alive, etc... But time is an illusion set forth by Satan and it's working... What if the time of Jesus (0 A.D.) is really present and always is, cause there is no time.
B.C., with dinosaurs and evolution, etc, was created with time by Satan, and so was everything since the time of Jesus (A.D.). Including our science and technology...

So behind this illusion of time, the religious (Christian I should say) characters are still very present and non-fictional. The battle between God and Satan is still very real and we are caught in the crossfire, completely ignorant of it all....


Not something I believe in, but an incredibly cool "What-If", just hoping for some feed-back!

If we assume your what if, then what would we do to get time out of business?

What ...hah!? What if Jesus is still alive!? Hello!? What if....he didnt exist in the first place? What if Your not an atheist?

If such omnipotent beings did exist, then there isn’t much you could do about it anyway. If such beings wielded such total power then humans would be no more than puppets, to be killed, nurtured, tortured, created, destroyed, all at the whim of these imaginary characters.

However, even if time is an illusion then the illusion seems very consistent and stable and appears to stretch for billions of years at least. There doesn’t seem any good reason why we cannot imagine it stretching from and to infinity.

The nice thing about perfect illusions is that you can’t tell them from reality. If they are really good, such as this one, then the illusion becomes, for us, our reality.

But things such as gods, demons, spirit worlds, and heroic saviors, only appear in movies and storybooks, they are the very essence that comprise the building blocks of imaginative mythology. Such stories, of course were written in times when very little was known about the real universe and when such tales were considered believable.

Unfortunately there are still many gullible people who cling to these fairy tales in a desperate hope that such mythical words do exist where they can escape from their perceived drudgery of mortal living. But look at your world and your life, does anything indicate to you that such myths are in any sense real? Of course not; the idea is simply not credible.

if time as an illusion, milk wound't go bad.

But if there were a devil, wouldn't that be a risky thing to do? What if we forgot him too? But maybe that is just my outlook on things. If everyone forgot about him. he wouldn't "exisit".

Whoa people, I do not believe this theory in the slightest. It was simply a cool idea I thought i'd share!

What ...hah!? What if Jesus is still alive!? Hello!? What if....he didnt exist in the first place? What if Your not an atheist?
Daphnee, I am athiest, but I'm open to the possibility of a God, but I don't think that means there is one. As far as I'm concerned there's ALOT of evidence pointing against God. But I'm not going to have FAITH there's no God. If I did what would be the difference between me and someone who has faith in God!? And besides, athiests are alowed to pose "what-ifs", we have no 10 commandments, remember? lol

But if there were a devil, wouldn't that be a risky thing to do? What if we forgot him too?
"The most clever thing the devil ever did was convince us he didn't exist"
Can't remember what that's from....]

"The most clever thing the devil ever did was convince us he didn't exist"
Can't remember what that's from....Yes I have heard that but the cleverest thing he could do is convince everyone that the impossibility that there is life beyond death is possible and that people should not think for themselves, or question anything, or not look to science to help solve problems, divert people from solving their own problems, and all that people have to do to find this fictional eternal salvation is to believe in him i.e. the real name of the devil is Jesus. That seems to be the ultimate illusion.

that there is life beyond death is possible and that people should not think for themselves, or question anything, or not look to science to help solve problems, divert people from solving their own problems, and all that people have to do to find this fictional eternal salvation is to believe in him

sounds like Jahve to me :rolleyes: :D

If time was an illusion then that would mean I was never late
for work in my life! Woo hoo! Nice idea.

notme,

That quote is from the movie The Usual Suspects.
I think Kevin Spacey was the one who said it. :)

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled
was convincing the world he didn't exist."

real name of the devil is Jesus.
Another awesome "What-If". Everyone praying to God and Jesus and in reality we're really praying to Satan! God may be dead, or has just plain given up... Interesting...

That quote is from the movie The Usual Suspects.
THAAAAAAT'S where I heard it!

I find your theory interesting from a Christian perspective as well...

Ecclesiastes 3:1
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven...

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live.

God created everything in a specific time and order. I think the lie is that we have become trapped in time - slaves of it.

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

Satan is in fact the one trapped in time, since his judgement has alread been passed, and his influence is limited to the present. Satan cannot change the future, and has no hold over the past just,

"Time is nature's way to keep everything from
happening all at once." -Prof. John Wheeler

Whilst I really do appreciate it as a great concept of a hypothetical scenario.. the idea of time as "created" by Satan is really no more fantastic or implausible than a "creator" making a universe in 7 days... informing his followers of the fact it was created in seven days... and then go to extraordinary lengths to hide the fact and make it seem that the planet is much much older... I know its cliched... but did the trees in the garden of Eden have tree rings??? how do creationists explain sedimentary rock???

Anyway as always take it apart fellas....

Funky, I agree with you in the end, but for arguments sake, it is a pretty cool what-if. Cause technically speaking, everything we've learnt about evolution, science, etc, we learnt in TIME, which would be the delusion... I do not believe this myself, but through circular logic, it could technically be true. Of course this does not mean it is!

Notme, your theory actually means that time is not really a barrier. Think about it: the only obstacle to the past is subjectivity of historians (and the bias of witnesses). People don't really doubt Ceasar's conquest of Gaul, but we only have his own word for it. The truth of the Bible does not lie in the few discrepancies, but in a coherent message. And the Bible is the oldest and most diverse collection of documents relating to religion on earth.

But since we do progress from one second to the next, and learn from one moment to the next, you can't really say it is all an illusion. It is merely a reality that we can't see. You don't have to believe in time, but it still goes by. There are many witnesses that will second me. No pun intended ;)

From a biblical perspective, Jesus told his people to read the signs of the times and realise their significance. We see a natural progression on a small scale, and it follows that there is a larger progression as well.

Hypothetically, creation might have happened in seven 24-hour periods, because there was no-one to witness "time" other than God. Evolution as we experience it might have happened in "fast-forward" - I mean, it is being created after all. God was making history, literally. And time was an intended byproduct, not a natural law. Whichever way it was, the facts remain subjective, and in the case of creation, only God was there to witness it.

Since God's reality is eternal, the concept of time really isn't that binding. What He wants us to know is that we were created, the seven days are simbolical of the seven days of the week, with Saturday/Sunday as holiday. God didn't really need the rest, after all - but He had the whole of creation in mind when He started it. Including the physical and psychological welfare of His creation.

Think about this: humans are the only species that can love unselfishly over a few generations. Time has hold over love.

Seems to me you are saying the bible delivers a message independant of time, trancending time so-to-speak... The message of the bible, message of God, pierces Satan's illusion of time... This is why people must accept the bible, and why it is the path to salvation. A good point.

What if living in the moment, apreciating the present, rendering time useless, is piercing the illusion. Basicly, what if Jesus didn't get it right with the bible but Buddha got it right? Just an ulterior perspective...:)

Illusion that you believe completely and utterly IS reality. Reality only exists in your own mind. IF you never have any stimulus or thoughts that are contrary to something then that IS reality.

Same with time. Satan controlling time!? That's a new one. He could yell 'zap!!!' and all believers would age fifty zillion years and die instantly by his hand.

*takes out books of evil magic and cackles*

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

Me thinks Zero should replace Satan, lol.

Zero: "K, Satan, take 5, I got it from here..."

:D

"Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so." -Douglas Adams

Notme2000:
Valid point, but tunnel vision would never pass for openmindedness :) You can get past time. Consider the moment, even in nanoseconds (especially nanoseconds, and less - the shorter the moment the faster it is perceived to pass) when push comes to shove and you have to make a split-second decision, a lifetime would be prefereable to a moment, wouldn't you agree? The "live the moment" philosophy is only valid if you have a long array of choices available at that moment. Extend it to "seize the day"... sounds much better because days are longer, you can plan ahead and do more with it. The Bible says "seize the life", actually it says:
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:18
Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

If there is a lie, it is that you only have to enjoy the moment and forget the rest. Instant gratification is the pinnacle of selfishness and ignorance. Unfortunately that is the foundation of pop culture and capitalism. When people use the word 'freedom' nowadays, it means not having to be bound by consequences, or take other people into account in gaining personal wealth and happiness. I'm not saying capitalism is evil in itself, but like power, certainly attracts pathological and corruptive elements. Fighting against these is the "good fight" - and making people aware of the consequences of their actions, on the lives of others and especially on their own lives, since this tunnel vision is exactly what makes people blind to possibility of life after death.

Originally posted by Zero
Illusion that you believe completely and utterly IS reality. Reality only exists in your own mind. IF you never have any stimulus or thoughts that are contrary to something then that IS reality.

Same with time. Satan controlling time!? That's a new one. He could yell 'zap!!!' and all believers would age fifty zillion years and die instantly by his hand.

*takes out books of evil magic and cackles*

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

So you can only be held legally and morally accountable by yourself, since everybody else's reality is only superficially compatible and therefore too subjective to be enforced?

You say that if your perception has never been proved otherwise it must be real? Are you saying you believe everything until it is proven not to be, or nothing until it is revealed? I suppose you mean that only agreed reality is real - simulacra. If you were the only person on an island and there was nobody there to see you - do you still exist? Of course, just like you would still exist you were a complete potato and unaware of your own existence.

I propose that reality is independent of perception, and not subjected to it. You are the only person who can judge what you see, and therefore your perception and interpretaion of what you see might differ, but that is by no means authoritive.

By the same argument time is also subject to perception - your own perception. If you believe a lie, then it is just a good as "Satan controlling it". What if time didn't stop when you died, along with your perception? What if your body (where your physical eyes perceive time from) is bound to time, but your soul is not (where spiritual eyes can see)? Entropy is only evident in physics. Have you seen mathematics decend into chaos? It can descibe chaos, but only because it is not subjected to it itself.

tunnel vision is exactly what makes people blind to possibility of life after death.
True. I believe in the possibility of life after death. I'm just not holding my breath, lol. But for all I know I could be very suprised 2 seconds after I die... So I ask this.... If life after death exists, does time exist there? In the same form it does here?

I propose that reality is independent of perception, and not subjected to it
No argument here!

I can only guess, of course. But since the only use of time is to show how things pass, it would have no use in eternity. Since the Bible promises me eternal life, I guess if time exists at all, we would see it from the outside like God does.

Time is a theoretical construct to understand and describe certain perceptions. It has no matter or energy. If it's use dies, then the construct dies with it.

On the other hand, time might still be measurable as an indication of progress. But again, if all things are perfect in heaven, progress would also not have its usual meaning.

You could probably get much more philosophical than this!

PS. This topic reminds me of a scene in Kate & Leopold, where the guy sits in the asylum and explains how time is a speeding train, and you can only see the flaws when you step outside.

Time seems to only be way of measuring movement... So if heaven were anything like earth, it would probably have some form of time too. But if heaven were, perhaps, just blissful consciousness then time would have no function. Many have said time is simply how our brain seperates what is going on and what is a memory. So this theory suggests time is something imposed on reality by humans, not a reality imposed on to humans... In this case there would be almost certainly no time in heaven, because we wouldn't need to "comprehend" it with our weak minds...

Describing heaven as "just blissful consciousness" sounds to me rather like an empty pipe-dream. What heaven will be like I can't know, but we won't be zombies. I just think that all the limiting qualities which give time any power on earth (waiting, decay, entropy, mortality, memory, deadlines ;) etc.) will cease to hold power.

There might be 'events' in heaven, and the knowledge that comes with a succession of events, but whether it will still be called time - that is the question. If it has no significance, why call it anything? Why even pay attention to te concept? I just think there will be better things to do than checking your watch.

maybe we are deceived by god. Since he is all powerful this should be no problem. Maybe he likes us to think that there is a heaven, but as soon as you die you go straight to hell...or maybe he made nothing...no hell and no heaven. Maybe it amuses him that it is so simple to trick the little monkeys on one of his zillion planets that he has made.

a researcher once told me of the monkeys that lived in her place somewhere in the tropics. They would tease and make fun of every animal that they considered to be stupid. Maybe god is the big monkey in the sky. teasing you with heaven....
http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

You might as well have said "maybe God isn't God" - actually, you did. But the God who sent his only son to be judged by his own creation didn't do it for kicks.

Originally posted by Jenyar
You might as well have said "maybe God isn't God" - actually, you did. But the God who sent his only son to be judged by his own creation didn't do it for kicks.

but you can't be sure about that can you...

By Jenyar: You might as well have said "maybe God isn't God" - actually, you did. But the God who sent his only son to be judged by his own creation didn't do it for kicks. I personally dont beleive he sent his son to us Jenyar.I think God could have made every single event in Jesus' life happen and put him on a path to make him his son. Maybe this should be in human science but i think it is relevant:when people experience something their reaction is always the same. To explain: the structure of every human brain is the same (virtually every human brain) and so any single person who experiences every single thing that another person has experiences in exactly the same order would react the same way e.g. if two people went back through 'time' ( ;) )
and swapped lives from birth they would literally become the other person because of the experiences they have and the order that they experience them in. So people are not responsible for things in their life because from birth they are like a ball in a pinball machine: they experience something and are thrown in a direction untill they experience another thing and are pushed/thrown in another direction.
The usual suspects is a great movie and it is "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing the world that he doesnt exist" , as i think someone said. As for a power struggle between the God and the Devil: i once had as thought that maybe the more followers one has then the more power they have to intervene. However as the bible says the devil is under Gods command. He must answer to god too (Book Of Job). What makes this true!??? Well there are people who lived along time before us and who were a lot older than us and im sure, were closer to God. These people have written down what they know of God and how he works for us.
The Bible is supposed to be divinely inspired, that is written by the word of God. if the people who wrote it were close enough to God it could be. The Bible is a history book and contains stories of homosexuality and incest so people should read before they judge- people saying that God hates homosexuality etc.
I suppose is should reply to the actual thread then..... (got sidetracked :( ).......What if time is an illusion created by Satan Could be! (he would have to have had permission of God though :p ) How many people think about God nowadays and how many think about how in the future they are going to make their millions or afford to go to college etc!?? (i am guilty too of this too) Jesus is still alive Maybe someone has his soul yeah. with dinosaurs and evolution, Maybe God wanted to create pure instinct first so he knew how it would work and what to build on top of it to make humans etc etc Maybe he then wiped out the dinosaurs once he knew this and made us.
if time as an illusion, milk wound't go bad. Time as a concept may exist ie the fact that one thing follows another. For example God may have thought of creating the universe before he actually did it and so one thing came before another. But within the universe all that happens is that space changes. Time is (quote from the young ones ;) " an abstract concept " Abstract - not connected to anything. Time is a man made construction- synthetic if you like. The case of the milk. the milk went bad after it was good. In the mean time bacteria had moved from one pace to another. the milk may have swirled around on its own etc. Space changed everywhere and eventually the bacteria 'attacked' the milk. While the bacteria was attacking the milk the planet Venus has spun on its axis and moved around the sun some more as the other planets and moons too had also moved in their own ways. Ciao

EDIT- P.S- if time doesnt exist then what about negative past experiences. Does that mean they dont exist?? -feel no shame, cos times no chain 'Hey Now' By Noel Gallagher. Time is not a chain. It is a series of unnconnected events. Some may argue but that everything is connected in some way however with the absense of time, they are not. Once it is clear that only space exists then it will become clear to see that when the moon spins on its axis and orbits the earth this is not causing venus to do what it does. Anyone who will say that the gravities of all celestial bodies interact to cause what they all do will be describing a web of some kind. The bodies gravities' pull at each other as they spin and turn and this throws some bodies away and then pulls them back in later etc etc. There is still no place for time in this occasion. Only space.

EDIT- Wrong song :rolleyes:

Neville, I used the same logic, but with a few important differences. Jesus was God because Jesus was one in mind with God. But Jesus was fully human - His thoughts and reactions were fully human, altough He was God made human. The Bible says Jesus was there since the beginning of time.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Jesus is still alive, but it is not his soul that survives on earth - he is with God in heaven at the moment, from where he will come again.
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

What we do have, is God's Holy Spirit. Nobody had been this close to God before, since nobody had God written in their hearts like we have. The Spirit sustains our faith when we have nothing to see, and in that sense permits us to see nothing but Jesus Christ - everything physical is just a reflection and a shadow, just like Jesus' phyisical body was the shadow of the spiritual body of his church.

When Paul came to Athens, he went only to look for Christ:
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Therfore this is our belief:
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Jenyar:

Are you saying that Jesus was God in human flesh?

Then did Jesus feel what it is to be human? Or did He feel what God feels?