Here's a little theory that evolved from something I saw on Babylon 5

Out there, there are insects, like ants for example...

If you pick one up and put it back down, there is no way it could possibly comprehend what had just happened to it.
Even if you were an ant and could talk the ant-language, you could not explain to another ant what a human was and anything of our lives. ant-language is simply to simple to communicate what we can communicate using our language...

Now, if you go even farther, there are even simpler beings, like bacteria, who cannot comprehend how ants lives work ...

then you could say there are viruses, who might not even be considered alive...

Now: why do we think that we are the smartest end of the chain... Is it not possible that maybe there are beings out there much bigger and smarter and more complex than us? They are impossible for us to comprehend, like our lives are incomprehensible to ants...

Our communication is simply to primitive to compare to theirs... Too primitive to explain their lives. Yet their language can explain our purpose in life in one paragraph...

Like we can explain those of ants...

After thinking of this, I of course wanted to imagine the life of those beings (sometimes called Gods I believe ;) )...

First I thought about their language... If it is as more complex than our as our is more complex than ants' theirs, they will be able to explain concepts that we have written hundreds of books on and made libraries of in one or two words. They must be able to fully explain love, friendship, and hate, as we know it in a single sentence... Just like we can say "I am hungry."... Just about the limit of any communication... It would also make sense that they would have feelings unimaginable to us, like an ant cannot feel love...

Then I considered their society... This was even harder to comprehend, well impossible to comprehend fully... I was thinking about it this way...

Viri -> Bacteria -> Ants -> Animals -> Humans
No society or coworkership -> No real society -> Work together "well", form cities and huge ant-civilizations -> Experience family ties (will protect each other) -> Human society -> ?

Now, how will this look one level above Us? How is the society of God set up? Well, I think they would group like we do... they would have different types of beings to do different jobs... Just like there are worker ants, warrior ants, etc... Now that I think about it, human society is not all that different from ant society

If I were better at writing than I am now, I would probably write a book trying to expalin the unexplaineable world of these greater life forms... hehe Its all good ;)

Oh my Gro$$ if you´re right... they just might decide to start to build a highway in this corner of universe :eek: (:D ).

Personally I think it is wery likely that we are not the smartest things in this universe... after all if some potential life has been growing in closer of the core of this galaxy... they most likely have evolved billions of years longer than us.

It might be that even at this time there is a HUGE alien empire ruling our neightbouring stars and they have just decided to study us etc. (btw if someone want´s to read a good book about this topic, I recommend Iain Bank´s The State of Art, altough the beings in that society weren´t so super intelligent :rolleyes: ).

But so smart aliens that we couldn´t even see them or even begin to understand them? I have to say I´m skeptic :)

It is kinda scary though if you think of it... what if some alien race which is a lot more advanced than we are... comes here and decides to invade this planet... it could happen tomorrow.
Now that I´m in a paranoid mood, when you think of it... perhaps the "Black Plague" that killed a LOT of humans in the past was actually an attempt to wipe humanity out from the face of the earth! But when we became resistant to it the aliens were amazed from our strength and decided to wait until we dicover fast food and become lazy and weak :(

Some good points... I was thiking something bigger than another race tho... yes, there are probably other races out there... sorta like other ant hills :) Yes there are much bigger and more advanced "ants" out there :) I was thiking a civilisation that we cannot comprehend at all... ones that casually travel to other dimentions... and about the highway... good point :) I think the book "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" is something like taht... I never read the book, but i heard a lot about it :)

whoa, heady maaan.

This has a nice subject. I'm not sure if humans will evolve organically into one of your gods or mechanically. We probably have the potential right now, since we use only 10% of our brains to do anything. Imagine if you could think ten times faster or with ten times more consciounces talking all at once considering what you're about to do or be able to read, watch tv, play on the computer, keep an eye on someting cooking in the kitchen and play with your cat all at once without losing your focus on any of the subjects. WE CAN DO THIS!



But how??

Simple, shrike: Because we use our brain, all of it! Not just that idiotic '10%' bit!

How anyone can still believe that '10%' bit when Positron Emission Tomography has been around for a while now, I'll never know.

http://www.nucmed.buffalo.edu/cpethm.htm

I don't think this analogy is valid becuase neither ants nor bacteria nor viruses are capable of human understanding, and just because things don't posses our inteligence doesn't suggest there are things that posess more intelligence than us.

That’s not necessarily true… an ant can think that he is the greatest intelligent being in the universe cuz everything he sees is smaller than him and dumber than him. He cannot perceive animals or humans.

A creationist once questioned me, asking me "what would you do if God suddenly came down and proclaimed his existence."

I replied, saying "I wouldn't believe that this person was God."

The simple logic of it is this:
Consider our technological advancements we have achieved. In about 10,000 or so years, we will be basically capable of doing
things both (at this point) impossible, and beyond our imagination. Basically, the nature of the human being is to
grow, adapt, better itself, and improve. In my understanding,
human existence will do this on a consistent basis, persuing this goal of obtaining "perfection" until it is destroyed. Perfection, itself, is entirely impossible to obtain. So what I am saying here
is that 10,000 / 100,000 years from now, human existence will
have developed to a point where we could literally appear to be Gods in retrospect. The manipulation of matter, the generation of material from thin air, the ability to kill someone and bring them back to life with no effort at all, the ability to manipulate and control weather. All things are within the reach of our control; the only question is when we will be able to obtain control of such things (only time, an extensive study of, and a general understanding of their nature can lead to this).

Based on this reasoning, and going back to what I said in the beginning (that scenario), my deduction is that "this god" was nothing more than a being of some kind completely capable of such things (beyond our understanding).

Welcome to SciForums Leviiathan :) Great point :) We have a very interesing problem when we try to define "God". Are we Gods then? Who is God to us? Do they have Gods? Will we ever be "Gods"? Can we understand God? Is God one being or a society?

Is god aware of our existance?

GRO$$, did you study how the Ant population work together?
It is in a very good way they all work together. It is a wonderful population who work together in harmony to survive and every Ant has its job in the Ant population.
So there is a lot to think about that, don't you think...

Ants, other insects and virusses existed long before the first manliked creature came crawling out of the Seas.
If humans could work together like the Ant population does, man, what a difference that would bring...:)

But just because of the arrogance of humans, (they think, so they are superior) they don't work together but fight eachother...

Things like the Black Plague are needed because sometimes Earth has to clean Herself and wipes out a part of us, superior thinking, humans, as they really messed up in their way of 'living together', which seems rather hard to do for humans.
Then the Ants do it a lot better then we do...

As far as the existance of the beloved allmighty god, no, no god whatso ever.

And there were extraterrestrials on this Planet. Way back in history of Earth they came here when there was just a little manlike creatures on Earth.
They were not so friendly extraterrestrials for they set their 'criminals' free on this Planet to get rid of them. Those ones mingled with the early man and from there the Modern Man exists.
It was not a very good idea for these goofs are the main reason the so called holy wars began, way back in Ancient Times.
For holy wars have always been there, look back in history, you will see, always they have been fighting about believing in (a) god or more gods.

That is why there is so much supersticion and why humans believed in different gods before, like the Walhalla with its gods and so on....

It is all coming from Outerspace, way back in the Ancient Times.
And stupid they were yes. But later they saw what they had done to Earth and the upcoming creatures that became mankind.
Now we are being watched but they cannot interfere because the decision was made so long ago and humans developed more and more 'evil' feelings and supersticious thinking towards one another. It was not to be stopped any more.
So this human race has messed up properly again and will be wiped away for a big part to calm the Earth down again and then the ones who remain will have another chance to do it in a different, hopefully better way then nowadays.

Look what we are doing.....
We want to know everything, go everywhere to look for other living species and while doing so, destroy a lot of species who are a Natural part of Earth.

Tigers and Elephants for instance. Humans kill them for their ivory and skin.
Do you know how long an Elephant mourns and waits with its killed partner???
It is really too sad for words.

And then we say we are intelligent??? I go for the Elephants and a lot of other living creatures here on Earth from which I feel they have much more intelligence because they know how to live in balance with eachother and Nature, something this human race has long forgotten and they will not find their way back to that kind of balance in living here on Earth for the fights and pain they bring has gone too far.

Most humans think first about themselves, then they think again first about themselves and their own individual wellbeing and no more of other humans wellbeing and their feelings.

So the Ant population has done much better then the human race.
So do most animals, and humans are animals too, I should say humans are the most agressive living animals on Earth, for they really like to kill just to kill.... :confused:

And the saddest part....They feel good about it.
Ridiculous!!

If God is an ideallic entity of perfection then we can never know God as knowing God would eliminate the variables of perfection and thus make Thine eminence measurable and real and, well, that aint anybody's God.

I have an opposing thumb - to crush ants with and FEEL superior and deify my self.

Ted Nugent is a God.

I'm usually an athiest except when I'm desperate.

Banshee, God is good when man perceives Him to be.

<<...If humans could work together like the Ant population does, man, what a difference that would bring...the arrogance of humans, (they think, so they are superior)...Things like the Black Plague are needed because sometimes Earth has to clean Herself and wipes out...superior thinking, humans, as they really messed up in their way of 'living together'...>>

No flight simulator software for you. People who think humanity should be exterminated should be held suspect.

I just can't believe that such thinking exists believing it's actually conscionable. Rather sick, if you ask me.

Doane McTork, nice reply, haha.

If Ted Nugent was god, I would certainly say a little prayer to him, for I love his Music very much.;)

Like you say yourself, you only believe in the existance of god when it suits you well.
Yeah, I can imagine something with that, Most humans do so when they are very desperate:'Please god help me, I will pray to you every day if you please help me out now...".

Something like that?

Well, go ahead, I do not pray, never ever.

I'd rather say a prayer for the Ants and the rest of Nature.:)

Thank you for the good laugh.

"There's no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole." R. Lee Ermy

Generalizations are never true.

Real atheists really are atheist, no matter what.

Let me guess: R. Lee Ermy never has been a real atheist.

Doane McTork. great quote...:p :)

What does this say about Ted Nugent then...?

Well, if there should be a god, like the christians say, he messed it up pretty well. He left the human race to itself when he saw the destruction I guess. Even the christian god can't do a thing aboout it.

Perhaps he should ask Lucifer to interfere.

Or is this the case already? Then it should be that Lucifer has more power then then god. How odd...;)

"Generalizations are never true" Mr. G

That statement defines itself as UNtrue. (That was a joke you spoke, wasn't it?)

Ted lives by his beliefs. That is why he is a God. He has Hindu tendencies and doesn't even know it.

R. Lee Ermey (Spelling corrected) was once a training instructor for assassins and was an intense God. Then he fell from grace and became an actor. But in his defense he remains a tepid God in that he will always have eternal life on DVD (or some other future media form).

And Hinduisme is something completely different then the christian, islamic, catholic, protestant or jewish god, for that is all one and the same god.

They only bent the rules on their own religious behalves and give god another name, like allah and jaweh....
For allah and his prophet mohammed are exactly the same as god and his son jezus.
The islam has even wrote a complete bible (koran) with even more binding rules as the christian bible. Look how they treat the women in islamic countries.
Very loving. Is this the way that so called god wanted it to be?
Nasty god you have....

Doane McTork
I go for Ted Nugent, great mucisian too.:)

Hinduisme and Boudhisme are really completely different and not comparible with the god I referred to above. Over whom every holy war is raging on this Planet.

Good replies Doane, please go on like this.;)

<<...allah and his prophet mohammed are exactly the same as god and his son jezus...>>

As I understand it, Islam is founded on the notion that it is the only true monotheistic religion -- that christianity and judaism are flawed and not true monotheistic religions.

Judaism is deemed to have a god but no human representative through which it can communicate.

Christianity is deemed to have two gods, as its god masquarades as human Jesus but is not entirely human.

Islam is supposedly not flawed as it has a god and a singularly human representative/mouthpiece.

I really do believe in this higher level of beings...the one that created us in his own image. The one that created me, ...you may be different ( ;) ), is the one and only true God that I believe in. I really don't believe that we are evolving. In the Bible God says that he gave us the world to enjoy, learn about and to grow in...that does not mean evolving to a better human kind. Thats about developing and learning new things of which God gave us access to.

If you would like to, which I strongly believe would be benifitial to understand who the God is that I believe in, check out this website. When you open it, more on the bottom left of the screen, hit the "To read Fathers Love Letter, Click here".

http://www.fathersloveletter.com/fllpreviewlarge.html

Originally posted by liv4christ
I really do believe in this higher level of beings...the one that created us in his own image. The one that created me, ...you may be different ( ;) ), is the one and only true God that I believe in. I really don't believe that we are evolving. In the Bible God says that he gave us the world to enjoy, learn about and to grow in...that does not mean evolving to a better human kind. Thats about developing and learning new things of which God gave us access to.

If you would like to, which I strongly believe would be benifitial to understand who the God is that I believe in, check out this website. When you open it, more on the bottom left of the screen, hit the "To read Fathers Love Letter, Click here".

http://www.fathersloveletter.com/fllpreviewlarge.html
if JESUS is a truth then creation has led to evolution,otherwise whats the need for god to come inside his own creation?IF EVERYTHING WAS JUST PLANNEDLY created there wouldnt be need for any JESUS to come inside the world.isnt it?

Zion, great reply, good point of view. Hadn't thought of that.:)

If this god allows the human race to invent all their consuming luxury and material comfort, for what case he did so?

A lot of so called christians, pretend to be so christian and godloving by going to church once or twice every Sunday. But as soon as they are home again, the pretending is shaken off of their christian shoulders and they are the same old humans again who forget their prayers before going to bed and who beat their children if they do a thing in the 'different' direction.

Though this doesn't count for every christian godbeliever. Only the bigger part of them....

For all humans lose contact with themselves and want to live only in luxury and material comfort. They can't care less about other humans. And they don't care at all about Earth and Her Nature.

They prefer to drop their garbage everywhere they go and leave it up to humans like my 14 year old son and me to clean up the Woods after they've done messing it up again.

Guess there are a lot of other humans doing things like this because without humans cleaning up the mess in Nature, it would be very sad to be an inhabitant of the Woods...

And that so called god has created the Woods too I guess?
He doesn't pay much attention then, does he....

Or is he sitting in his heaven, looking down at us and has a good laugh about us, ruining Earth with our destructive inventions and hateful behaviour towards one another....

It's really quite amusing watching folks who say 'feeling is believing what is true' ripping into someone else who feels what they believe is true.

It makes our purpose in life so much easier. :D

Originally posted by Banshee
Or is he sitting in his heaven, looking down at us and has a good laugh about us, ruining Earth with our destructive inventions and hateful behaviour towards one another....
hi Banshee,
I am writing this considering GOD's point of view,if there is one.
when i create a virtual world,and artificially intelligent softwares (inserting them into bodies like in robot,virtual off course) part and see them killing each other or fighting i"ll be amused.i"ll probably laugh. i"ll sit coolly and watch unless someone inside poses some kind of threat to my system,then i"ll insert a new program to fight that entity with his exceptional powers,Same was Jesus.same was for every other god that has descended on earth.maybe god's world is the real world,where anything is possible,no boundaries,no limitations.etc.

the above statements ar understatements,i agree as laughing is just another pattern of this world's rules,we dont know what set of emotions are programmed in god's world.

Zion, I understand exactly what you mean, but I am so tired of this babbling about the great god almighty.

Humans are a tool in the hands of the great god almighty...

They do their dirty rotten fightings all in the name of LOVE, the love for this god, that is....

Not much love there, is there...

Life on Earth existed by the influences of the Cosmos (Universes) and the believing in gods was there from the very beginning.
The first men like creatures feared the Thunder and Lightning which come so now and then. They were afraid the Sky was coming down and should kill them....

Later on the believing in all kind of gods existed, look at the Walhalla and the gods who lived in there, for instance. They had a god for everything, good and bad gods and one upper god.

Mankind and the humans of today seem to need a god they can hang on to, for it is a lot easier to say 'It is the will of god...' then to deal with their problems themselves.

And it is so much easier to say that someone has passed away because of that so called will of god then to look further in their short minded biblical way....

I am sorry to say so, but look at the world, all that holy wars, all in the name of god....that one and particular god which humans themselves gave some other rules how to believe in the same god...

And as far as this jezus concerns...guess he was a Psychic, for he healed humans and made food and drink for them when they were in need for it...
It were the other humans who called him son of god, right from the start, and maybe this jezus believed it himself, for he didn't know any better in those days...

I've read posts on sciforums for about 2 years now I believe (I have a horrible sense of any time longer than a week.) I've read the forums both as a self proclaimed atheist and as a born again - yet very unorthodox - Christian. I will never try to convert or to validate my religion to you (even though other Christians often tell me I should). I have only a question for those of you who are atheists as well. If there were no god, no higher power and we life in a what-you-see-is-what-you-get world, then that means you have no soul (spirit, essense, whatever one would call it). And if that is true then after death you simply cease. Why life at all? Why live in a world of such hatred, pain, disease, and famine and then just stop. Seems rather depressing to me.

I post this question only because it is my observation that most atheists (myself included at one time) posted about how life would be without religion, about how the species of man could ascend with technology and become almost God like himself. Even if we achieved freedom from natural death, and lived in a world where our bodies healed 100 times faster and almost nother could kill is. The fact would still remain that if your braincells destroyed. All that you were would be gone, never to return.

If this world were all fun and lollipops then maybe I could see some advantage to living and dying (ceasing). But its not and I find it personally hard to think about this being all there is.

Just want some atheist's views of death and the here-after.

-Anton Kiriwas

Originally posted by AntonK
If this world were all fun and lollipops then maybe I could see some advantage to living and dying (ceasing). But its not and I find it personally hard to think about this being all there is.


-Anton Kiriwas
Hi anTonk,
NOT AN ATHEIST.
==============================================
if world were all lolipops and fun who would prefer to die?perhaps death is the ultimate trauma escape.since there is trauma there is death.death comes to our rescue,when we are in great pain(just a speculation though;)...

bye!

AntonK,

I am an atheist because I am not depressed by the thought that being alive in the Universe is all there is to existence, because I find depressed people depressing and because I find embellishment by escapist distraction unnecessary for me to be happy.

What motivates other atheists I cannot say with certainty.

The point here is that you can sight hundreds of reasons to why you dont believe,but can you sight a single reason why one must NOT believe in gods existance?,can you disprove his existence?no.so until this non-existence is disproved i see no harm in believing in Him.
UFOS
=============================================
take the ufo case.you cant prove that they dont exist ...at the same time none of the evidences have ever been able to come closer to what UFOs are really thought off to be.
bye!.

AntonK, you miss the point completely.
Did you really read all the posts? Including the posts at other Forums? Guess not...

We are all coming from the Cosmos. There is not one 'good' god who created Earth and this lollipop consuming race now a days. If that was the case, he did a pretty good job messing it up didn't he...

We are all 'children' of the Cosmos (Universes) and if you wil give a name to a so called power, call it:'All That Is..' because that is more likely than the existance of that one god.

Every human on this Earth is here for a reason and everybody has a Deeper Self, or Soul if you prefer.
If not so, you were not able to feel and have thoughts.

We are on Earth to learn and we have to die because we are done with our lifetime we are living now. In what way you die doesn't matter. Your Earth bound body is built by Earth atoms and chemicals (not the artificial ones) and react always on influences from out the Cosmos.

Like the Moon influences the tides. Humans react the same way, humans exist for 65% out of water, pay good attention at your living place during the ful Moon.
I gave this very simple example before...

Guess you read some more posts at other Forums as well.:)

Be very welcome at Sciforums and keep on posting, always good to have a new member with good points to discuss.

As far as the UFO's concern, even the greatest scepticals among us have to admit there is something out there, so once in a while.

Lets get back to the topic on that please...

Death is only Natural, you just go back to the Cosmos where we all are coming from. And if your death has been horrible because of a nasty disease, well, perhaps that is one of the main side affects of this overconsumed society...with all the chemical and artificial garbage which is in our drinking and food now a days.
That is why they invented doctors, to give you more chemical and artificial garbage, at which your body gets used to, but your body is not made to take this garbage in the first place.

So what is wrong with this picture?

Humans are so overdue with the comfort of material luxury as mentioned, they don't even think about it any more, they just take it, for it is so common for every one.

Then don't whine if you have to die, just give in, nothing to be afraid of...

AntonK, do you have to say something about UFO's?
I am curious to read what you feel or think about that subject...;)

Banshee,

Your view, I can accept. I am a Christian I will not hide that, but I am unconventional most definately. When I talk about a God, I never pretend to know the nature of this "God". Cosmos, God, whatever, its all language; as we all know meanings change over times so who's to say what a God really is. When I refer to "God" I simply mean a supernatural being, force, etc. I again don't know the nature of it. The notion of returning to the cosmos seems very similar to a heaven - heaven after all in most religions is defined only as the home of the maker. My question was to true atheists who believe that death is an end, not simply the end of your physical being, bt an end to all that you were and are.

If I am completely misinterpretting your views, I apologize, but I don't believe I am. Furthermore, I appreciate your response (All of you) :D

As for UFOs, I believe there is something there, something DEFINATELY covered up by the government. What they/it is I cannot say. I have many theories, no single one i favor really though. I would certainly love to find out. I commonly try to research (on the net) everything I can about UFOs, aliens, abductions, weird phenomenon, possible theories, etc. Would love to hear your ideas on it as well.

-AntonK

AntonK, good reply, thank you.:)

I go along with you as far as you say that every human is going back to where he/she is coming from. But in the christian point of view there is a hell as well. Isn't it so that the real godbelievers are convinched the so called atheists are going right down on the highway to hell?
So not always to their heaven. There is a two way street in the bible, one for the 'good' and one for the 'bad' humans living down here on Earth...

The Cosmos contains all of us, whatever your life may have been here on Earth, which doesn't say you can come back at the homefront and live your new life happily after the former one. You have to learn to live your life in balance with other humans and Earth and Nature. If not, you will have another chance, but how, that is another case...

Back to the UFO's.

I shall give you a nice 'weird'

link you can go to on the Internet. They have a lot of items. Go take a look there.
It is nice to read the items and you can subscribe to their newsletter, so you always know what are the new topics there. They have a messageboard as well. Think you'd like it. That is, I hope so. If not, then let me know, I have others. Even an Ufo link where they have a chatroom opened every Friday evening from 09.00 pm til midnight, but it is European time.

I shall give you both the links. Tell me what you think about it please.;)

www.worldofthestrange.com

www.ufoscotland.co.uk

Have fun...lot of information there.

Lets discuss it a little further please.

Let me know what you have found and if it is of any interest to you. Ok?:)

Have a nice day. Talk to you later...

Man is a tool in the hands of the great God almighty.
He (God) gave him (man) command of a nuclear submarine.
And sent him off, in search of the garden of Eden

Is it not the case that what god wants, god gets?

Esp, that is exactly what the godbelievers think.

All what is going on here on Earth and all the inventions, like a nuclear submarine from about the $2.000.000, is exactly what god wants, so god gets it...

Isn't that the case oh godbelievers????

And if your little child gets shot in the head, like in Ireland, that is exactly what god wants...

What god wants...god gets...

God wants to have a good laugh and wants to color himself, from out his holy heaven...

Well, what a lot of love is going on down here in this 'civilization' created by the good, loving god almighty...

Let this 'loving' god bless you all, especially in the United(????) States where they don't know who to pick up from the streets and claim to be they are terrorists.

Is this what god wants...???

I prefer to be an Ant then...in stead of a human living in this 'civilized' world...

Animals are not elusive to ants. Men are not elusive to animals. Why God is so elusive to men?

Because the godbelievers are made after the likeness of their holy god himself??? (as is claimed in their bible)

Originally posted by zion ...but can you sight a single reason why one must NOT believe in gods existance?

I have no reason to tell someone not to believe in gods, only reason to suggest to everyone that they each may accomplish more with their lives, and even for the general good of humanity, if they commit significantly more brain cycles to rational thoughts.

...can you disprove his existence?no.so until this non-existence is disproved i see no harm in believing in Him.

Disproving the existence of the invisible and the non-existant is so much harder than actually proving that they exist.

What do you imagine my motivation must be that I should feel compelled to carry your burden of proof for you?

By the way, Avatar, Ants belong to the animals as being an Insect. All creatures, from human til Ant are belonging to Nature.;)

Originally posted by Mr. G


I have no reason to tell someone not to believe in gods, only reason to suggest to everyone that they each may accomplish more with their lives, and even for the general good of humanity, if they commit significantly more brain cycles to rational thoughts.




Agreed.

zion,

You acknowledged the easily agreed-with with the requisite formula response. Now, answer the real question:

What do you imagine my motivation must be that I should feel compelled to carry your burden of proof for you?

???

This is the first time I've read this thread and Gro$$ I think you've raised a very good topic.

I would like to just say a couple of things. There are no points to any of these thoughts, they're just arbitrary things to say.

Your ant story made me think of the last scene in Men In Black where the giant aliens were playing marbles containing galaxies.
Humans really don't know, or can't prove, that this isn't possible.

Then the topic went on to discuss God. I am an athiest. I was brought up a Catholic but as an adult science became my 'religion' if you will. I believe we (humans) are just like every other species on this planet. We are born, we live, we die, the end. Our bodies, over billions of years, will become fossil fuel for whatever is roaming the planet at that time. We will be recycled just like every other species.

As for souls - this one always gets me going. Why does every human believe that only humans have souls? It's really the same as believing in god. Only humans seem to believe in god and souls. Doesn't anybody look at their pet dog and see some sort of a soul in him? Or dolphins? These are animals that are able to express some sort of feeling that we can understand a little. Why can't we attribute a soul to every living creature? I know a lot of people like to go fishing, but all I see is some poor animal being tortured. Imagine a giant hook being caught in your throat and then dragging you under water. That image comes to me every time I see a fisherman.

And doesn't anyone wonder why whales beach themselves in groups? Could they have souls? Or feelings?

I guess I'm feeling a sorry for anything being mistreated because we're sharing the planet with millions of other creatures (plants included) yet it's the humans who are polluting it. Shame on us.

There, I've had my say. No points to make, just wanted to let that out. If you agree or disagree it doesn't matter.

Again, great thread.
Cheers,
Teri

Every living species here on Earth has a 'soul' and goes back to the Cosmos. It seems to me that the Whales and Dolphins have just found a better way of living in more harmony together then we humans do.

Couldn't it be that they are further in 'evolution' then we humans are?

Look at the Dolphins for instance, they come up and play with humans pretty often. They are such wonderful Animals. Much more appreciated then humans with their constant arguing.

Look at this thread, arguing all the time. One theory after another and a lot of disagreement.

Well, I go for the Whales and Dolphins and other Animals.

And they certainly have a 'soul' which goes back to the Cosmos.
Even an Ant.;)

Let's see what a comment there will be on this one...

Pretty arrogant of humans to think they are the only 'intelligent' species here on Earth.

Intelligent?? An inventive word made up by humans. Only because they have the possibility to talk to eachother. But what do we humans do with this communication???
Argue, argue, argue...day after day, year after year...

The whales have a better way of communication and also do other Animals. Even Dogs and Cats...

Humans have made them domestical to them and make slaves of their pets, for they want to have control over everything, including their pets...

Every living species here on Earth has a 'soul'...

So, how do you treat your fellow cockroaches, mosquitos and houseflys?

With due respect, I trust.

I think it was from Billy Connolly but apologies if it's not.

Who do you think the more intelligent species is - the dog, or the man walking behind him with a small broom and a plastic bag?

:D Teri

Originally posted by Mr. G
zion,

You acknowledged the easily agreed-with with the requisite formula response. Now, answer the real question:



???
So you are not satisfied.oh! and dont worry i"ll have cattle hired for carrying the burden so that you dont have to.:D

so what did i ask,and where did i agree?i almost forgot the whole thing...

bye!

and Mr G you urself have admitted:

that you cant disprove god's existence.

95% of all people of this world according to you are under illusion of god,isnt it?though you feel proud to find urself a part of skeptical community,(ehm,ehm,ehm)but a true skeptic doesnt say WHY buddy... but he questions WHY NOT?...so open mindedness is pretty important.

and you know u can then point out hundreds of reasons for not believeing in god.:

i dont believe in god because:
1.)my salary is low.
2.)my dog barks slowly.
3.)my girl firend is a liar.

and on...and on...
and now answer my question:
==============================================
what would you do IF at the end of your life you find out that god exists and he is ruling...?
==============================================
if tommorrow i find that god doesnt exist i"ll say its okay man,whatever i did was just mine i didnt owe it to anyone,but what about you?you are not safe on one side,isnt it?
bye!

Mr. G, there you have me.:)

I prefer the Cockroaches to stay outside, for I don't like it at all if they come inside. I jump high upon a chair if they do come in and I see them.

But they don't have to die, just take them away...;) Outside, where they belong.

...you cant disprove god's existence.

Not with any more success than you can prove to anyone else that such a thing does actually exist -- to people other than those who have commited themselves to choosing to imagine that such a thing actually does exist without any empirical evidence at all to change the supposition to actual fact. Otherwise, what role for faith?

...so open mindedness is pretty important.

Much like a bucket with no bottom. It accepts everything and retains nothing of substance.

what would you do if at the end of your life you find out that god exists and he is ruling...?

I'd form an opposition party and run against him in the next election.

Originally posted by Mr. G
[I'd form an opposition party and run against him in the next election. [/B]

HEY EVERYONE WE HAVE GOT A SATAN THE DEVIL HERE RIGHT ON OUR SCIENCE FORUMS,WELCOME SATAN,WELCOME TO SCIENCE FORUMS.:D :cool:


bye!

Well satan, why don't you start with the oposition party right away?

Why wait til you are death? You can be elected now if you dare to speak up in the open.
Isn't it so that it is allowed in the united states to have FREEDOM of religion and therefor thus Freedom to make your own election party for not believing and preaching your 'satanic' ideas?

Go for it, I am waiting for you to be electected as the first television 'satan' who makes a good living by preaching your words of 'evil' and disbeliefs in this 'FREE' America now a days.

Good luck. :p

Show yourself to be proven right...in the open...

Believing in Satan, like believing in gods, also is an act of faith.

Why would I be inclined to buy into another version of the very same thing?

But in the spirit :rolleyes: of the thought experiment, were I to meet Satan on my way to meeting your god, I'd tell him I'd seen your god fondling Satan's own little sister.

Mr. G,
A little civility please. Antagonizing folks will not help. Contribute if you will but that is the key, if you respond with constant criticism you will wind being viewed much the same way as Tony1. It would seem that you are persistently hounding certain members. While you may not agree with those views it is a large world with viewpoints to correspond to such. The ladies here at Sciforums are a welcome change and a great amount of effort was spend in getting some of them here. It all goes to waste when posters start "stalking" them and those ladies decide to go elsewhere. I for one, enjoy seeing them here. Say what you have to say but name-calling, rudeness, and the like is not required on either side of the board.

zion, if the only reason you believe in God is so you'll be on the "safe side" just in case he exists then I doubt it's doing you any good anyway. From what I understand about God, he will not condemn you for not believing in him most of your life. As long as you help others, give instead of recieve, you are living for God anyway, even if you don't believe he exists (even if he doesn't exist...). You are still living for the "spirit" of religion, which is to be caring, compassionate and helpful towards eachother.

If in the end God does exist, and he sends me to hell even though I've lived a caring and giving life then I'm not sure I want to follow him. He would sound more like a power-hungry monarch to me if he did that :(

Xelios,

if you read my several posts regarding my opinions about God and various other beliefs about how life exist,you"ll find out what i believe and why i believe in god.the example given to Mr G,was an example for sake of discussing a thing out.also there is a strong analogy for me between "THE MATRIX" movie and the real life as i believe,that is the reason why this name.


bye!

GOD EXISTS AND THATS IT.THANK YOU SO MUCH.

A good movie, but it is a movie. It is not the truth. And it is made up. Just like Science fiction.
But it is a real good movie...;)

Are we going to discuss the existance of god here? There is a Religion Forum for that.

And then again. I agree with Xelios on this one. If you live your life in understanding with other humans, Earth and Nature, and try to do the best you can to live your life Free from 'evil', you live your life in the best way you can. A lot of humans kill in the name of gods love. Love? (Pride in the name of Love - A shot rings out in the morning Sky. Free at last, they took your life, they could not take your Pride(Pride??). In the name of Love, one more in the name of Love - U2)

Why is there an only good god necessarry, who judges us all after our body has died? Heaven and hell? A 'good' and a 'bad' afterlife? Nothing in between?

Guess you better call it 'All That Is' then. There is no such rude judgement here, only a new life to come, in which you have to deal with the experiences and decisions you've made in this life-time.:) And deal with it...

Mr. G, A little civility please.
More than a little civility have I consistantly afforded everyone -- some more then others, like anyone else.

Antagonizing folks...
I challenge folks for how and what they think, as everyone is free to do with me, as you are doing. I've stated this before --it should at this late date be no surprise to anyone. You say "toe-mah-toe"...

...if you respond with constant criticism
A generality untrue when one examines the full spectrum of my threaded posts. Where I feel compelled not to leave anyone's wierd thinking argument from authority unchallenged I respond. If my responses to WTAFA are numerous perhaps WTAFA are numerous, too.

Tony1.
I don't know him. He must hang out in places where I'm not being anagonistic. :p

It would seem that you are persistently hounding certain members.
I challenge WTAFAs. That there may be certain members more prone to such thinking might therefore mean I respond to more of their posts than the remaining others.

While you may not agree with those views it is a large world with viewpoints to correspond to such.
It is a large world, and all people can respond to my views with equal freedom to disagree and challenge me. It is a fact that I previously have encouraged people to challenge me. To discourage me challenging others is to discourage others to challenge me. Are we all to be cognitive couch potatoes?

The ladies here at Sciforums are a welcome change and a great amount of effort was spend in getting some of them here.
Sir, I take personal offense to your opprobrious innuendo that I biasly single out females, any female, for prejudicial derision. I challenge you either to offer up a single textual, gender-specific utterance here attributable to myself or to apologize.

It all goes to waste when posters start "stalking" them...
I respond to WTAFAs where I find them. If the same people are where I respond to WTAFAs there can always be construed the appearence of 'stalking'.
You question my intent. Have you equally questioned the intents of those who do not recognize that perfectly innocent coincidence may be at work? Who suggest 'stalking' as the only certain cause?

...and those ladies decide to go elsewhere.
By leaving, do they then not do a disservice to all females by leaving the community with the gender-specific impression that females are not the equals of males because they require special accommodations and special protections?

By such reasoning, if I challenge females equally as I do males am I not actually paying females a most significant gender-neutral compliment?

Say what you have to say but name-calling, rudeness, and the like is not required on either side of the board.
Again, I challenge you to produce a single example of 'name-calling' or non-subjective 'rudeness' to support your accusation.

I happen to know for a fact that ... I hope you don't get too upset with me for
blowing your cover Mr. G ... he, Mr. G, is an Episcopal Bishop who has devoted
his life to the Truth as he sees it. Consequently I can understand why he would
get upset with the likes of Bebelina and Banchee who promugate paganism, for
lack of a better term, on Sciforums.

So please cut him some slack and tell Banchee not to go referring to him as 'Satan'.
Lets have a little respect shown to a man of the cloth! I can shrug off, even
get a chuckle out of Bebelina calling me 'ogre', but that's something else, she
has a thing for me. Why do you think she accused me of 'flirting' with Mr. G? Yes, a
woman scorned.

Take care. ;)

Now you're blowing it.

Mr G,



Let us take the easy one first.

Tony1 is a prodigous poster in the religion forums. He, unlike you, ignores the total post and answers by pulling some of the context out of the post. At times he is obstinant, unreasonable in debating, and ah, shall we say hard headed. He has, for lack of a better word, a tendancy to draw fire like a lighting rod. At lot of it he brings on his self by his attitude. This attitude and as much as what he says brings a lot of distain from his peers. To say the least he is disruptive, tearing the threads and their topics into chaos continually. Everyone seems to be running around in circles because of the constant disruption. It has resulted in a large part of the members considering action to prevent such off the wall responces.



As to the "opprobrious innuendo". I have noticed that, shall we say, you seem to frequent some posters more than others. I have never said that you have uttered a
single textual, gender-specific utterance
...rather I have observed that you visit those threads and continually and effectively kill the thread. This is what I refer to as stalking. As such I have nothing to apolozie for as it is not my behaviour but yours, sir. I may not agree with the subject that has been posted or it's views, but I think that I am big enough to allow for that difference and if others are interested in such then let them have their party. I notice that I rarely see you in pseudoscience and downing the idea of LGM have landed.



As for name calling, rudeness, and the like
you will notice that it was also aimed at the opposite side of the fence from you, too. I think that perhaps you have read into that statement some of what was not aimed at you, for you have been responded to. Notice the bold highlight as to what was your part in my veiw. By that I mean that it is the attitude. It basically come down to scorn for what you do not agree with. Have you actually said this? No. As I said before, it is the attitude.

At lot of it he brings on his self by his attitude. This...brings a lot of distain...he is disruptive, tearing the threads and their topics into chaos....Everyone seems to be running around in circles because of the constant disruption.

Sounds an awful lot like the Old Testament's great flood, with which now days many people in the US don't seem to have much problem. Kinda relative, no?

As to the "opprobrious innuendo". I have noticed that, shall we say, you seem to frequent some posters more than others.

Shall we also say that I have already presented reasonable reason why that might be so?

...I have observed that you visit those threads and continually and effectively kill the thread.

I dare to hope that I've left people speechless with my cognitive powers. And I am to feel some sort of regret for my abilities?

This is what I refer to as stalking.

That is what I refer to as non sequitur.

...I have nothing to apolozie for as it is not my behaviour but yours, sir.

Okay, we'll play it your way so that you may save face. I have plenty to spare.

I notice that I rarely see you in pseudoscience...

I've been there so much I've been accused by you of stalking helpless females requiring your White Knight protections. That forum's Mod hasn't yet felt the need to ban me, so you must be blowing smoke.

I trust you won't manufacture a reason to ban me from your mod'd fora because I disagree with your quick assertions.

You know, me and authority kinda rub each other the wrong way by Nature.

As for name calling, rudeness, and the like, you will notice that it was also aimed at the opposite side of the fence from you, too.

That's why you addressed your post only to Mr. G?

...I mean that it is the attitude.

You can't reproach my thinking, only my attitude? So, it's my personal pride you object to.

It's indelible. Live with it.

MR G,

It was never in my mind that it was a matter of banning, nor was it an option I considered. I took it to say what I felt and not as something that required an "official action". You will notice that other than this one part of this thread that no mention has been made to you by me on this subject. I do not see you as banning material and I do welcome to you continue to post. That was not my issue. I like to think that I am fairly lenient sometimes to the point of being too much so.

I am guilty of one thing here. I will be the first to say it. I responded faster than I should have. This is not a matter of face saving as I do try to see both sides. I understand your position. As a moderator I try to encourage all to participate and post and you are included in that, not excluded. I see others off the board mentioning problems, if they are afraid to stand up and say something, then I will. I do not think of my self as the White Knight, I can be as wrong as the next. I felt it necessary to say something. How else is anyone one going to keep BS from blowing up to something that isn't required? Tony1 was mentioned as it appears to be a bit out of hand and as such has come down to disruption. I am not bashful, I will tell you what I think. At the same time I will remain courteous to a fault. I may not agree with you but I respect your opinion. I would ask that of you.

Stir occassionally, bring to slow boil.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wet1
MR G,[quote]

"...I took it to say what I felt and not as something that required an "official action"."

Of course. This is not a forum you moderate. You are, here, as pedestrian as the rest of us.

"I do not see you as banning material..."

Then I have failed to adequately challenge you.

"I like to think that I am fairly lenient sometimes to the point of being too much so."

Who really wants to be such a wuss? :p

"I responded faster than I should have."

Gut feelings are not to be so easily discounted.

"I see others off the board mentioning problems, if they are afraid to stand up and say something, then I will."

So, you will willingly discount rationalism to defend irrationalism?

Logical?

So, why are such folks enlisting you to do their own dirty work? Because they imagine you are manipulable? Because they recognize that image is everything where substance is absent?

"I felt it necessary to say something. How else is anyone one going to keep BS from blowing up to something that isn't required?"

Then we can be cognitive brothers! We do the very same thing, but for different reasons. ;).

"Tony1 was mentioned as it appears to be a bit out of hand and as such has come down to disruption."

How would you propose to otherwise disrupt popular group-think so that the group's members might begin to consider outside, non-conformal alternatives? Send the group roses?

"I may not agree with you but I respect your opinion. I would ask that of you.

I respect what I respect, not nearly what all I'm offered for respectful consideration.

Just because a thought exists doen't mean it's automatically owed cognitive respect.

Respect has to be earned.

I've seen no evidence of malice or disdain from Mr. G. His desire to rationalize the "disproportionate amount of irrational thinking in evidence" is laudable and forthcoming. His rapier like subtlety is as entertaining as it is misunderstood. And misunderstood it is. Rationality *is* often misunderstood. Usually from those that would rather treat it with contempt then embrace it with open arms. Or, as is touted, "open minds."

Why then, should this sapient defender of reason be chastised? What are his crimes?

He believeth not in witches and warlocks and things that go bump in the night!

What greater crime be there?

Take care ;)

Mr. G,

As you seem to take things out of context, perhaps here is one you should consider. You do post at forum I moderate. As such, with your idea that I might


I trust you won't manufacture a reason to ban me from your mod'd fora because I disagree with your quick assertions


I felt it necessary to answer that and did address it. No one, and I repeat, no one at any time that has been banned without their knowledge that it was coming and with ample chance to repair their ways. You seem to think that these underhanded ideas are something that I might do. Kindly speak for yourself and not for me. I do not need that kind of help. I can not help if your mind runs in this direction but that is a cross you have to bear not I.

I do not see you as banning material..."

Was a statement that was made in an effort to inform you that you had committed no gross act. There is a qualifier that should have been added, …at this time.

Then I have failed to adequately challenge you

. I wish to make this clear and also where I stand at the same time as you seem to think that such action would never apply to you. I draw that from the statement that you yourself have supplied.

Who really wants to be such a wuss?

This obviously points to problems you have and therefore I suggest you take it up with your psychiatric consultant. I see a statement where you point to having problems with authority and in the next you have problems with those who would cut you slack. Quite a contradiction, I suggest to go back to your cave and re-evalute your out look on life.

So, why are such folks enlisting you to do their own dirty work? Because they imagine you are manipulable? Because they recognize that image is everything where substance is absent?

As you are finding out, I am not manipulated. It is for them to decide if it has no substance. You are not sole judge and jury. Or do you claim to be all knowing?

I respect what I respect, not nearly what all I'm offered for respectful consideration

In other words, you pick to continue. Very well. It was your choice.

Respect has to be earned

And so far I see very little to respect.

As for language, it is amazing and oft repeated that people can have different meanings for and get different meanings from the same words. And as to attitude, I think that the context of your statement

But in the spirit of the thought experiment, were I to meet Satan on my way to meeting your god, I'd tell him I'd seen your god fondling Satan's own little sister.

was uncalled for.

Have a Merry Christmas...

It was appropriate for the making of the point, this point:

So, what you're saying is Satan shouldn't stand up to Authority? Shouldn't question Authority's assumptions, presumptions, reasonings and methodologies? Shouldn't question nor challenge the wielders of authority? Shouldn't be goaded into standing up for himself in the face of seemingly overwhelming authority?

I'm an athiest. I'm not afraid to stand up to authority -- at risk of the Holy Smite. I've lost jobs because I've stood up to, confronted, authority -- where and when I felt that I was better served by doing so than by submissively kneeling at its feet by bending over.

I don't advocate anarchy -- total disregard for authority -- but I do advocate total disregard of those who abuse their authority.

So when someone's god does something like sending innocent children in jet airliners crashing into tall buildings to make some kind of an authoritative point, I stand and say "Your no god of mine! And I'll see you on the ballot next election." Oh, that's right. What election?

Standing up to other abusive authorities comes easy after that.

And goading people out of their caves to confront the authority that has driven them there comes easier, too.

--Happy Solstice.

When we create Perfectly working virtual artificial life and give it to you for maintenence Mr G,then i"ll see how you"ll react if A.lifeforms disregard your existence and disregard your world...i"ll wait to see what you do if something goes wrong inside the system...

Anyways Merry Christmas to an Aithest.


bye!

Mr. G,

So, what you're saying is Satan shouldn't stand up to Authority? Shouldn't question Authority's assumptions, presumptions, reasonings and methodologies? Shouldn't question nor challenge the wielders of authority? Shouldn't be goaded into standing up for himself in the face of seemingly overwhelming authority?

I could care less about your religion or lack thereof. If you choose to call yourself Satan, by your words, that is of little concern to me. If you choose to challenge authority, you will get responses that aren’t to your liking wherever you go in life.

I'm an athiest. I'm not afraid to stand up to authority -- at risk of the Holy Smite. I've lost jobs because I've stood up to, confronted, authority -- where and when I felt that I was better served by doing so than by submissively kneeling at its feet by bending over.

Results follow actions and in that you will also be disgruntled, much as you have mentioned, with what you have went through in challenging authority. How hard you make life on yourself is from your own dealings with it. Brick walls are everywhere and so are hardheaded people.

So when someone's god does something like sending innocent children in jet airliners crashing into tall buildings to make some kind of an authoritative point, I stand and say "Your no god of mine! And I'll see you on the ballot next election." Oh, that's right. What election?

What has that got to do with the price of eggs in China?

Go, Go, Go wet1!:D :D :D :D :cool: :cool: :cool:

Mr.G may be sometimes what we think of as an "Asshole" but he is, I believe, quite knowledgeable in Astronomy.

So Mr. G Please make your self less of a stanger in the Space, and astronomy related forums ;)

Can we get back to the topic please....

I really like what Gro$$ has to say. Hey Gro$$, where are you? Save your topic...it may need CPR...

Wet1,

...problems you have and therefore I suggest you take it up with your psychiatric consultant...
...go back to your cave and re-evalute your out look on life.
Hmm. Ad Hominems. Well, you seem to be the psychology expert. Maybe you can give me a free reading?

I could care less about your religion or lack thereof.
Okay. Works for me. I guess you won't in the future feel compelled to come the defense of anyone else's religion, or lack thereof, either?

If you choose to challenge authority, you will get responses that aren’t to your liking wherever you go in life.
I've noticed that -- that authoritarians are a rather intolerant lot when it comes to ingracious people challenging their use of the authority temporarily gifted to them. Why do you imagine that so many authorities feel so defensive?

...you will also be disgruntled, much as you have mentioned, with what you have went through in challenging authority. How hard you make life on yourself is from your own dealings with it. Brick walls are everywhere and so are hardheaded people.
The fact that I never 'mentioned' the word disgruntled, nor ever had in mind to imply that I was communicating such a concept, means my previous responses are also perfectly adequate in response to this misconstruance, too.

Tristan,

Mr.G may be sometimes what we think of as an "Asshole"...

And you've gained your expertise in universally accepted Comparative Assholeness how? ;)

Don't anyone throw rocks, but kmguru is right, can we get back to the topic?

Please?
Teri

I am sorry, replace asshole with "sometimes smart ass". Just how I feel... Though you are a good person Mr.G. I respect you. Did you read the scond part of my post above?

I will bow out in hopes that the thread can be revived.

well I just read the topic now:D
Dont be mad;)

Very interesting.
i saw that ON baby-lon 5 too. Cool concept. I love it. Dont have time to give my thoughts on it though so:

TOPIC HAS BEEN REINITIATED...
PLEASE REFER TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC
THANK YOU

hehehe;) ;)

Yes. Let's all be Ants.

Ants with a 'soul'...:)

This could be heaven for everyone,
This world could be fun, this world could be one.

Made in heaven,
Written in the Stars.;)

Come on...lets go again...DISCUSSION.

Looks like Gro$$ isn't interested in reviving the thread.

So, let's get back to reminding authoritarian-minded authorities that they serve the community, not that the community serves them.

If you take anti-authoritarianism personally you shouldn't be in charge. It's not about you, so don't imagine you are owed being flattered.

What Gro$$ concerns, he is no longer at the Forums. Guess he didn't like our cozy community as much as he wanted.:) His good right to let go of us.

As far as authorities concern. I run into stupid authority rules every day and have stopped letting them upset me. I am upset by what they do to humans feelings and how they hide the most important items for the public, but that is another case. That concerns more the whole government. All over the world and the US in particular. (god bless america???, yeah, the money god!)

No counsel about the adds in our food supplies and what these adds are doing to human bodies. Most humans go shopping and buy their food and drink without even looking at it.

At the moment the numbers of babies born autistic has increased with 80%. Polio is back. Heart diseases and cancer are increasing. Perhaps it is a good thing to pay more attention to your own living surrounding first and than start fucking up the authorities all together.

These diseases are coming forth from our consumption society, which is totally overdue with foodsupplies and modified weats. Even Corn is modified, nothing seems to be what it supposed to be now a days.

Than you have the mentality of local authorities. And here I stop, for I am getting real angry about that subject.:confused:

Mr. G,

This is the last post I will make on the subject as other members have already made it known they wish to continue.

So, let's get back to reminding authoritarian-minded authorities that they serve the community, not that the community serves them.

If you have a problem with this I think you should take it up with the Admin, Porfiry. After all the posts will speak for themselves. I have no issue with authority and should Porfiry think that things are not as they should be then I will abide without quibble with what ever he should decide. He has always been fair.

As for your authority problem; if you have problems with authority then maybe you should become the authority so that you don’t have to deal with it. But if you do that puts you in the same position as you have a problem with. You are in a no-win situation until you resolve your conflict. It is far easier to potshot than to come up with a solution. Everyone can come up with gripes rather easily, it is the solving that is the problem.

You may be well educated and knowledgeable in astronomy (as Tristan asserts), however reading your last few posts has led me to the conclusion that you have an inferiority complex.

It does not impress me to watch a battle of wits being undertaken in a public forum for the benefit of making you look intelligent. Wet1 does not seem to want to pursue this issue with you and if it is that important to you, why not send him private messages instead of disrupting a topic that some of us were interested in continuing.

Your posts now resemble Tony1's posts, and at times I have the impression that you have more than one identity and use it/them in your own defence.

I am not seeking to add fuel to this fire, but if you don't like what I have just written, please keep it between ourselves, send me a private message in reply and let the thread revert to its original topic.
Thank you,
Teri

Teri2

You should have noticed that Mr. G did not start the 'battle of wits' you've described. In fact, he is simply defending himself from ad hominem attacks and accusations. He is doing what any other member would do under the same circumstances. Responding.

It doesn't matter to me who started what. The point I'm trying to make is that a couple of us have asked to revert to the original topic, but Mr G continues 'stirring the pot', so to speak.

Actually you, Q, sound a lot like Mr G. Could you be related?

I realise I've dragged myself into this idiotic banter, so I'll shut up for a while (only in this thread) and see what happens.

Have a nice day.
Teri
:)

Actually you, Q, sound a lot like Mr G. Could you be related?

Thank you. I'm flattered. Unfortunately my skills of perception and use of the English language pale in comparison. I should be so bold.

I realise I've dragged myself into this idiotic banter, so I'll shut up for a while (only in this thread) and see what happens.

Please do continue to bring the thread back on track. It would appear hostilites have ceased. In fact, let me help. I believe that last bit o' jargon, just after Mr. G was dubbed Satan and just before this thread went awry, went something like this:

But in the spirit of the thought experiment, were I to meet Satan on my way to meeting your god, I'd tell him I'd seen your god fondling Satan's own little sister.

I find this statement fascinating! Notice how the entire motive is based on revenge. Although both entities, Satan and God in the thought experiment are not considered in the subjects mind, the desire to pit one against the other is surreal. Its as if the subject must inflict such pain on Satan that Satan would have no choice but to seek retribution. Satans wrath would be amplified a thousand-fold. Not only would he be enraged that God would do such a thing, he would be infuriated that it was his own flesh and blood God had sullied.

*sigh* If only I had the movie rights. :D

The great creator god is an invention by the human race. So is the creation satan an invention of the human race.

As stated before, good and evil (god and satan) are within humans themselves.:)

Therefor humans are god and satan themselves. Believing in gods and demons have been existing on Earth as long as this species have discovered the ability to talk and it will never end.

All that hate and anger about who is right and who is wrong. Please stop with that and just live your life the best way you can. In harmony with yourself, Earth and Nature.:)

Even with the Ants and other Insects, for they are inhabitants of Nature...

If you read most of the current topics in diffrent sections in the sciforums, an interesting picture emerges.

Simplicity ---> Complexity
Cause -----> Effect
Animal emotions Vs Human emotions
The world has not ended due to Fermilab experiments
We may be inside a computer.
There is water in Mars
Our government is having problem in managing information.
So does Argentina
We are evolving
We use tools as a part of our evolution.
Change is getting time compressed
Change may be exponential
Next 5 years will see more changes than last 15 years
Chaos ---> Order ----> Chaos
AI is many years ahead of us
Sanatana Dharma ----> Kabbalah -----> Hinduism -----> Moses -----> Budhha ------>Jesus -----> Mohammed ------> Joseph Smith(Mormons) ------> ???
Faith and Belief are not the same thing
Uncertainity breeds innovation
Uncertainity creates stress
Prolonged Stress damages body, mind and spirit
You have only so much room in your brain

and so on....

:D:D

"WE MIGHT BE INSIDE A COMPUTER"

:D:D

Yes its been a discussion point for a long time isnt it?:D

"we use that much of our brain"
10%...:D:D hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha...

We are evolving...HAHAHAHAHAHA...
this is the best of all the posts(mean it;)).hahaha,thanks Km.
bye!

Km,

hahahahahahhahaa...i am at it once again.

Banshee,

Satan is cracker of God's computer simulated world,a virus and nothing else.
hahahahahahaha...sorry for loudness.(i laugh that way usually...:D)

bye!

There you go. I am with you here. Great reply...;)

As to what is and is not within the scope of this thread's topic, let us revisit Gro$$'s original post:

Now: why do we think that we are the smartest end of the chain... Is it not possible that maybe there are beings out there much bigger and smarter and more complex than us?
How is the society of God (my addition: as in "the society of the extraterrestrials) set up? Well, I think they would group like we do...
Thus is the thread's discussions of comparative societial organization made open to discussion of issues of authority as a means of societal structuring. So, Teri2's point that:

...a couple of us have asked to revert to the original topic, but Mr G continues 'stirring the pot'... I am comfortable ignoring.

And to Wet1's point:

As for your authority problem; if you have problems with authority then maybe you should become the authority so that you don’t have to deal with it. But if you do that puts you in the same position as you have a problem with. You are in a no-win situation until you resolve your conflict. It is far easier to potshot than to come up with a solution. Everyone can come up with gripes rather easily, it is the solving that is the problem.
(Argument from Authority Alert!) I was, for a period of thirteen years during my previous professional career, a department head responsibile for (among many other things) hiring and firing. For eight years I've owned and operated my own business, again responsible for hiring and firing. I have been the Authority. I am the Authority in my own little kingdom of Corporate Greed. I think I am amply qualified to pass judgement on authority where ever I see it, but most particularly where I see it poorly applied -- a very important distinction I made earlier in this thread (for the discerning reader). A point that parallels another I've made several times before in other threads: anyone is free to take me to task on anything I say. Thus am I prevented from insulting people's intelligence by involking Arguments of Authority as proof of argument. Frankly, I think my take on authority is rather enlightened: I understand that being granted authority over others does nothing to make an individual more than they already are unless that individual uses their authority judiciously and allows everyone at any time to question their use of authority.

I don't have a problem with all authority, just a problem with alot of people in authority for how they use it.

And to Wet1's point:

If you have a problem with this I think you should take it up with the Admin, Porfiry.
I don't have a problem with you or how you have exercised your fora authority. And even if I did I wouldn't go crying off to mama Porfiry to save me from the mean ol' Wet1. However, I am beginning to develop the opinion that you get so caught up in defending your virtue from lil' ol' Me that you often fail to pick up on salient, complex argumentative points -- such as this one that (Q), alone amongst all here, so perceptively understood and appreciated:

RE: my statement "But in the spirit of the thought experiment, were I to meet Satan on my way to meeting your god, I'd tell him I'd seen your god fondling Satan's own little sister."

Notice how the entire motive is based on revenge. Although both entities, Satan and God in the thought experiment are not considered in the subjects mind, the desire to pit one against the other is surreal. Its as if the subject must inflict such pain on Satan that Satan would have no choice but to seek retribution. Satans wrath would be amplified a thousand-fold. Not only would he be enraged that God would do such a thing, he would be infuriated that it was his own flesh and blood God had sullied.
(Q) has been added to my short list of people here whose powers of assimilation and synthesis are worthy of respect and very positive public comment.

And it has nothing to do with payback for this particularly kind statement:

...my skills of perception and use of the English language pale in comparison.

(Q), here, is wrong.

I will concede that this thread has gone to hell in a handbasket anyway, and as you, Q, so politely invited my participation to continue, I'll go back to the words of Mr G who said-

"But in the spirit of the thought experiment, were I to meet Satan on my way to meeting your god, I'd tell him I'd seen your god fondling Satan's own little sister."

You found that interesting and wrote -

"Notice how the entire motive is based on revenge. Although both entities, Satan and God in the thought experiment are not considered in the subjects mind, the desire to pit one against the other is surreal. Its as if the subject must inflict such pain on Satan that Satan would have no choice but to seek retribution. Satans wrath would be amplified a thousand-fold. Not only would he be enraged that God would do such a thing, he would be infuriated that it was his own flesh and blood God had sullied."

This is something you would have to ask of the subject, Mr G. He is the one who stated what he would say to "satan" on his way to meeting "god". I find it very odd that someone proclaiming to be an athiest, (I thought I saw that written in an earlier post, but correct me if I'm wrong), would want to continue arguing a moot point. Do you think it's possible that deeply embedded in Mr G's subconscious is the belief that these two entities do exist?

Teri

:)

Teri2,

Great point.


bye!

Teri2 should not be suprised that an atheist is capable of temporary suspension of disbelief for the purpose of using someone else's ox of faith to gore itself.

Sniff, seeds here? God or Satan? Have to follow one or the other? No path for hamsters? Or Mr. G? (Big brains with big thoughts? Too big for a hamster.) Sniff, no seeds. Want to chew. Mmmm…chaos, exponential change, time compression…sniff good seeds?

Can we go back on topic please? Thank you.

Mr G, put your problems with authority aside and post a little the way it belongs in the topic. You yourself quoted Gro$$ posts. Shall we continue to refer to that?

Talk to you all, later...;)

I'm not surprised, Mr G, that you are capable of temporary suspension of disbelief. I'm just dubious about your motives. I get the impression that you would like to continue to stir this pot, and I have now become the contents to be stirred.
You're a funny old soul, aren't you?

Banshee,
As I said earlier I think the thread has gone to hell in a handbasket and will not be revived. Maybe you can start a new thread and we'll leave Mr G to look for new victims.
Love
Teri

Mr. G

Thank you.

teri2,

Perhaps you've missed the point. As one reads Mr. G statement one can instantly visualize the scenario. Try now, to visualize the scenario to its ultimate end.

Notice how it plays out the same on every level.

For example, on the physical level it would mean the total annihilation of the entire universe and everything in it including God and Satan.

At the mathematical level, the derivatives equal zero or infinity.

Even at the theistic level, the mind does not allow itself to let the scenario play out.

So you see, no matter how you slice it, the thought experiment always concludes in a paradox.

And it is precisely the reason why Mr. G is able to make the statement.

I can't agree with your stance in stating that,

"For example, on the physical level it would mean the total annihilation of the entire universe and everything in it including God and Satan."

I am easily able to visualise the scenario, however this scenario would only have credence in a theistic sense, and that would only apply to people of faith.

The physical reality of the universe and all its contents, to some of us, does not include god or satan and the scenario you have presented would never be pondered.

I may be very well missing your point, but debating this topic is becoming tiresome.

Mr G insists he is an athiest, yet he insists on debating religious concepts. I cannot see the sense of it. Why is he bothering?

I do note, however, in some other threads, his proclivity for disrupting threads seems to be his only agenda.

Bye for now.
Teri

teri2,

My failure to help you understand this thought experiment has left you fatigued. I can understand why. Sorry for that.

My userid is Q. I have little more to do with Mr. G then you do with logic. If you wish to report your little conspiracy theory to the administrators, please do so. The accusations are becoming annoying.

And since you don't wish to continue the debate, I'll leave you with this:

Is it possible for one eagle to reside amongst a flock of turkeys? If so, then is it possible for two? :D

Since Mr G you didnt anwer my question,le'me refrain the whole shit for you once again...


WHAT IF (YES WHAT IF)YOU CREATE A Virtual world and and Virtual life in it and this life is an AI .and then it happens that most of the people even dont acknowledge your existence,because for them since they dont see you so you are hypothetical...And then one day when your system is in trouble you create a soft program and load it inside to save the god-damm place and some AI start believing in you,but some will still wont...hahahahahahahaha,but that doesnt bother you or will it,you"ll enjoy everything from your couch wont you,(if you wont you"re a bore:mad: ).?does that need your answer?or do you have any comment?

you know something,Aitheist needs God for calling himself an Aitheist ...whats the other part of your existence...


in your response of support to Satan,start with this...

BECOME OSAMA BIN LADEN. STEAL COUPLE OF NUKES AND DESTROY THE WHOLE PLACE.YOU"LL EVENTUALLY DESTROY SYSTEM OF GOD AND YOU"LL NATURALLY BE SATAN'S PARTY...

About the authority stuff?,hahahahahahahaha...
you"re kidding arent ya?dont press yourself by telling us who you are.in the net world there is no such thing as i am Bill Gates or i AM Keanu etc.we are just netizens.just that.
have i ever heard people who are part of Big corporate or authority Boastin' like this.nae.nivver.
Gooo awwn...its all in fun aint it?
hahahahahha....

bye!

BTW.

And ...

Give me 1(oh yeah just one!)reason not to believe in GOD!

no stupid reasons off course!

like i am an aitheist because....on an on...:D

bye!

"The accusations are becoming annoying"

Of course, no one could accuse you of annoying anyone, could they?

:D

So this thread ends up in a flamewar? Ok, than I leave it with this and start another thread in another Forum.:)

May you all have fun here, annoying eachother.;)

Teri, don't let yourself down on the same level as Mr G/[Q] or what ever their nicknames are. So to see they just want to f**k you up.

Lets go elsewhere and start all over again.:)

Talk to you later. Have a nice day.

(I bet there will be nice comments on this reply. Well, come on, let me have it!)

By the way, I agree with Zion in this.;) Though I don't call it god, but prefer 'All That Is'...

Let me know where to go and I'll be there.

I didn't really think G/Q's last post addressed to me should have been dignified with a response at all. I just found it amusing they he/they were getting annoyed.

After assuring me that they would behave, they ended up stooping to insulting me, along with another inane question.

PM me with the new thread, and let them come looking for us.
Love
Teri

Obviously, if the aliens are anything like the human race they will soon discover that humans are such a disagreeable lot that they will take all their toys back and go find another planetary sandbox in which to play and feel good about themselves.

:rolleyes:

Or they may appear as God ...

http://www.sciam.com/2002/0102issue/0102skeptic.html

Someone on this site has a quote from Arthur C. Clarke that says something like: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." This can tie in to that last subject, seeker, because it is MY believe that at the moment there are no aliens and that we must work to achieve 'magic' and godliness.