Thank God. Now maybe people will stop murdering our own American babies. The 1.5 million murdered every year are being replaced with babies of illegal aliens.:mad:

A bill prohibiting public funds from being used for most abortions has become law in Oklahoma after a deadline passed for the state's governor to veto the measure.

A good start. I pray all states follow. I never wanted my taxes to go toward killing babies.:mad:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2436956720070524?feedType=RSS&rpc=22

OMG thank god that only god can kill babies now!!!

Let's outlaw guns now so we can end the killing of people by people and give god room again to kill people.

Outlawing guns won't stop the killing of people. It will give criminals a better chance to escape from police. Many people are killed by cars. Many are killed with knives. Many are killed by drugs. Evil people will kill innocent people with or without guns.

I'm just glad that at least in one state, murderers can no longer destroy babies using taxpayer money.

I hope this type of thing won't continue.

Cheers rights. I love having Bush in control of the US, its giving us 3rd world countries a lot of opportunity to catch up ;)

Americans murder their babies! Shock, horror! It must stop.

I'm not for abortion, either. As liberal as I am on so many things, abortion just doesn't sit right with me. I know that people talk about a woman's right to choose, but nobody who says that lives in the real world. Girls use abortion as a form of birth control. Rather than using protection, they just hope for the best, and when the best doesn't happen, they run to the doctor and get the thing terminated.

But, at the same time...I'm in no position to tell anyone that they can't get an abortion. I'm not a woman, thus I've never been pregnant, and don't know what it's like to go through that. I think it's a bad sign when governments make these very personal decisions for people. It should not be up to some fat, rich white guy in Congress to make such a choice for a 17-year-old girl in the projects.

So they'll go to another state.

I'm just glad that at least in one state, murderers can no longer destroy babies using taxpayer money.
But you'd be happy using the same tax payer money to kill babies as they cross the border "illegally". Didn't you say they should use landmines? Imagine how many babies would die then.:rolleyes:

Americans murder their babies! Shock, horror! It must stop.
Controlled breeding..:p

And yes I am joking.

I'm in no position to tell anyone that they can't get an abortion. I'm not a woman, thus I've never been pregnant, and don't know what it's like to go through that. I think it's a bad sign when governments make these very personal decisions for people. It should not be up to some fat, rich white guy in Congress to make such a choice for a 17-year-old girl in the projects.
That's exactly the point. You've hit the nail right on the head.

Abortion should never be used as a form of birth control. Educating teenagers from an early age about sex and contraception would probably go a lot further in reducing the numbers of abortions. However many schools in the US refuse to allow sex education and the use of birth control to be taught.

This law opens up the issue of backyard abortions and as someone already said, they'll just go interstate to do it. Abortion is a personal issue. No one is in a position to tell someone to have one or not. The only person who can make that decision is the girl/woman who is pregnant and does not want to be.

Abortion should never be used as a form of birth control. Educating teenagers from an early age about sex and contraception would probably go a lot further in reducing the numbers of abortions.

Well, yes and no. Young teens (and even people in their early 20s) have misconceptions about when and how a girl can get pregnant. I've been with women, and have heard some of the ridiculous theories these girls have had...it's almost laughable.

It would have been laughable, actually, except for the fact that my last girlfriend had already had an abortion before she met me. And while we were together, her two best friends got pregnant and had abortions.

So yes, I think an even more important issue that preaching protection is teaching just how the reproductive system works. Most people don't know, believe it or not. I mean, it's obvious that the Sex = Pregnancy idea hasn't sunk in...it's time to get specific.

However many schools in the US refuse to allow sex education and the use of birth control to be taught.

I wish I could say this was a religious issue...but I don't think it is. It's really about parents who are scared that sexual knowledge will lead to promiscuity. Rather that facing the fact that their kids are going to have sex regardless of what they do or don't know about, they just hope that putting blinders on them will prevent it.

Unfortunately, it's this mentality that is contributing to unwanted pregnancies.

This law opens up the issue of backyard abortions and as someone already said, they'll just go interstate to do it. Abortion is a personal issue. No one is in a position to tell someone to have one or not. The only person who can make that decision is the girl/woman who is pregnant and does not want to be.

Well, there's an interesting problem with this: the only way to truly lower the amount of abortions is to make it illegal...but...as much as I think abortions are wrong, I find government dictating the legality of matters like that just as wrong--maybe more so. Abortion isn't a criminal issue; it's a moral issue, and moral values should not be decided by government, in my opinion.

Let me just clarify my stance on abortion...

Like I said before, I will never be in the position of the pregnant teen, or the victim of rape, who absolutely cannot afford (financially, or emotionally, depending on the circumstance) to raise the child. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. There is always an alternative to abortion...like adoption! My mother gave birth to me when she was 17, and needless to say that I'm pretty damn thankful she chose not to abort me, choosing instead to put me up for adoption. Perhaps that clouds my judgment on this issue, but whatever the case, I think that abortion is needless.

It's not about killing babies, because it's still just a fetus when it's aborted. For me, it's about accountability; the kid that could potentially have a wonderful life, maybe even positively contribute to the world, getting robbed of that chance because the mother isn't willing to deal with the pregnancy. There's nothing that says you have to keep the child. There are alternatives.

But you'd be happy using the same tax payer money to kill babies as they cross the border "illegally". Didn't you say they should use landmines? Imagine how many babies would die then.:rolleyes:
No. You see. Those babies are not american, therefore, they are not human. So it's ok to mutilate them.


She's soooooo Christian....
....:rolleyes:

JDawg,

You are one of those rare good american citizens..... :)

There are plenty of us, Truth. Don't be fooled by people like ...they aren't as prevalent as you might think.

I pray to God. LOL! :D

(That is, I pray to God you are right!)

Firstly, we use the term embryo and fetus for a reason- it is not a baby until it gets OUT of the womb.

I support abortion rights. And it angers me that these people are have restricted access to abortion so severely that people with legitimate health concerns cannot receive abortions in parts of this country. It also angers me that the same people that want to ban abortions also want to restrict birth control access, especially the morning after pill (high dose birth control). Why should my government be able to dictate what health procedures I elect to have? Why aren't these same people trying to make a law saying my insurance HAS to pay for legitimate birth control methods, like an IUD for instance? These are EMBRYO'S and fetuses that cannot survive outside of the uterus- they have no more consciousness than a tadpole. You can choose not to have an abortion and I totally support that, as long as you don't take away my options.

people with legitimate health concerns cannot receive abortions in parts of this country.

That's a great point that I didn't even think of. There are plenty of women who can't have a baby due to the health concerns. They shouldn't be given a death sentence simply because some religious guy or gal in Congress or the House has decided that abortion is wrong.

It also angers me that the same people that want to ban abortions also want to restrict birth control access, especially the morning after pill (high dose birth control).

Exactly. You have to wonder what they're trying to promote here...

Why should my government be able to dictate what health procedures I elect to have?

Because lawmakers live in a box. These people are career politicians, and haven't had to live in the real world in years.

Also, I think that our government reaches beyond their rights by trying to turn moral issues into legal issues. Again, I think most abortions are done as a form of birth control, and are not done for health reasons, so I think that largely, abortion is wrong. But at the same time, I would NEVER protest, or tell you that you can't have one, because it's not my place. It's not government's place, either.

Killing babies is wrong. Research 'baby development'. It will horrify you how people kill babies in the name of 'abortion'. :(

By 6 weeks a babies' arms, legs, heart, jaw, and eyes have already started developing. If people actually knew they were killing this adorable little baby, maybe they'd do it less. Some would still do it. We call them liberals.

http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498210

Looks like a parasite to me.

Babies are so adorable. They get their eyelids at 7 weeks.

http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498217.html

I know what a fetus looks like during the various stages of development. I think most well educated people, especially women, do. At that stage, and within the first trimester and even in parts of the second trimester the fetus shows no signs of consciousness. Yes, if nothing goes wrong and the pregnancy is carried close to term, ideally the baby will eventually have consciousness. But when abortions happen there is no consciousness, thus in my humble opinion there is no personhood.

Baby development focuses on the development between birth and when the baby starts walking. You are thinking of fetal development. My brother, who s 11 months old, is in a stage of infant, or baby, development. He weighs about 18 pounds and can stand, play, pick up a ball and put it in a crate, and can say things like "mama" and "nana". He would resent being compared to a fetus at this stage :p .

Life begins at conception.

JDawg,

You are one of those rare good american citizens..... :)

Yes, I agree.:)

Life begins at conception.

lol...

life begins before conception.

Surely life begins at 40?

A Nation that kills its own children is a nation without hope.

Life begins at conception.

So, life begins at conception because of death or did life come from lifelessness?

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa

Every month I waist one egg, which is half a life... damn, I need to get pregnant pretty soon.

Beyond that, I trully think we need to take a reduction stance on abortion. Let's set up services and supports so that women will be able to go through pregnancy and raise children without severe hardship. Let's help people get on birth control. Let's make emergency contraception accessible to all women.

A Nation that kills its own children is a nation without hope.

A nation that kills other nation's children is a terrorist state.

How about behaving oneself so one doesn't have to deal with pregnancy?

I'm all for personal responsibility. No sex=no pregnancy. Want sex but no baby? Get sterilized.

I'm not for abortion, either. As liberal as I am on so many things, abortion just doesn't sit right with me. I know that people talk about a woman's right to choose, but nobody who says that lives in the real world.
you would be singing out of the other side of your mouth if it was YOUR rights that were being denied.

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa
you need to define "child" before i can agree or disagree.

How about behaving oneself so one doesn't have to deal with pregnancy?

I'm all for personal responsibility. No sex=no pregnancy. Want sex but no baby? Get sterilized.

IUD's are more effective.

"We gave up...legislating religion or morality....When science cannot determine the facts and decisions vary based upon religious belief, then government should not act." Harriet Miers'

"Reproductive freedom—the fundamental right of every individual to decide freely and responsibly when and whether to have a child—is a reaffirmation of the principle of individual liberty cherished by most people worldwide. It helps ensure that children will be wanted and loved, that families will be strong and secure, and that choice rather than chance will guide the future of humanity." Planned Parenthood

"Whether or not abortion should be legal turns on the answer to the question of whether and at what point a fetus is a person. This is a question that cannot be answered logically or empirically. The concept of personhood is neither logical nor empirical: It is essentially a religious, or quasi-religious idea, based on one's fundamental (and therefore unverifiable) assumptions about the nature of the world." Paul Campos

Quote war anyone? Mother Theresa was an awesome woman, and I did not see her at any time picketing abortion clinics. I saw her holding the hands of the sick and the dying. How dare people who refuse to hold those same hands use her quotes to defend their morality. When a Christian lives even one percent as authentically, courageously, and beautifully as Mother Theresa lived then I will entertain their reasoning on abortion.

Church and state were deliberately made separate when we created this country because some wise men knew that theocracies were destructive. We cannot outlaw abortion or any other practice on the basis of theological systems. It will not work in the U.S. or in any other secular government.

How about behaving oneself so one doesn't have to deal with pregnancy?

I'm all for personal responsibility. No sex=no pregnancy. Want sex but no baby? Get sterilized.

I do not understand. You have said earlier that you are not a virgin. Are you sterilized? Or were you planning to raise your children in sin!

"Is it surprising that today we have become so morally blind (for wickedness blinds) that we save the baby whales at great cost, and murder millions of unborn children?"

there was a case in the courts a few days ago in Uk, where a woman had an abortion at 7.5 months pregnant, she went to an illegal abortionist, when the courts asked her how her baby died, because when they delivered the baby she was alive, she refused to tell the court, now she should've gone to jail for murder, but she was alowed to walk free from the court, also i think that Dr's should stop telling people the sex of the baby tehy are carrieing because in some religions (and i dont mean to upset anyone so please dont take it like that) boys are better to have.

also if you dont want to have a baby then keep your legs shut, or take the pill or use a condom. because a child is not just for christmas

"Is it surprising that today we have become so morally blind (for wickedness blinds) that we save the baby whales at great cost, and murder millions of unborn children?"

We are saving baby whales at great cost?

Killing babies is wrong. Research 'baby development'. It will horrify you how people kill babies in the name of 'abortion'. :(

By 6 weeks a babies' arms, legs, heart, jaw, and eyes have already started developing. If people actually knew they were killing this adorable little baby, maybe they'd do it less. Some would still do it. We call them liberals.

http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498210

By 6 weeks I was throwing up like a champion and then the "adorable" little thing nearly ended up killing me by the time I was 12 weeks. And that was the first pregnancy. More often than not, by 6 weeks the mothers body is doing all it can to rid itself of the parasite that you are referring to as "adorable". And that is why by 6 weeks, many women naturally abort (yes, it is called a miscarriage) without even knowing they were really pregnant. And at 6 weeks, if a woman has an ultrasound, all she might be able to see is a gestational sac and maybe... just maybe.. a small fluttering that indicates a heartbeat. And no it is not adorable. It is virtually a little smudge with no defining features that show it to be a baby.

And how dare you refer to women who have abortions as "liberals".

How about behaving oneself so one doesn't have to deal with pregnancy?
How about teaching kids about sex, contraception, the human sexual organs and how and why they work, etc? That would help a lot more than telling people to not have sex.

I'm all for personal responsibility. No sex=no pregnancy. Want sex but no baby? Get sterilized.
Or use contraception. However, shame half the kids nowdays have never been taught anything at all about safe sex.

We are saving baby whales at great cost?

I think the quote has to do with the whales stuck in the fresh water Sacramento river. Which I am not sure has anything to do with abortion, but anyway.

there was a case in the courts a few days ago in Uk, where a woman had an abortion at 7.5 months pregnant, she went to an illegal abortionist, when the courts asked her how her baby died, because when they delivered the baby she was alive, she refused to tell the court, now she should've gone to jail for murder, but she was alowed to walk free from the court

That was wrong. When a baby can survive outside of the womb you have passed your "window of opportunity" regarding abortions. If she killed the baby when it was outside of the womb it was technically born and she could have been tried for murder.

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.

I get your logic. I am with you.

Christians who support the death penalty should be put to death.

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.

That's right :D and if they are then we should certainly let them be aborted!

lmao

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.

Was that directed at me? Hmmm.... I am sure I would make a much worse mother than you would Sandy, you know with my liberal, pro-choice, atheistic belief system.

*shakes head and walks away*

The death penalty for some POS is different than the death penalty for an innocent baby.

That was wrong. When a baby can survive outside of the womb you have passed your "window of opportunity" regarding abortions. If she killed the baby when it was outside of the womb it was technically born and she could have been tried for murder.


they just let her walk away, i personally hate abortion and if you have one then your evil, mistakes can be made by dr's, for exampl, i was told that my son when i had the amnicentises (sp) that my son would be born with a sever disbilty, and adviced to have an abortion, but i decided to stick it out, after all he is my child and i was carrieing him, to kill him would be like killing a part of me and my husband, so i had the baby and when he was born he was fine, he now has Tourettes, ADHD, and he is bi polar, but apart from that he is a healthy child who is now 15yrs old and i still think to this day that i couldve easily not had him, becasue of dr's mistakes.

also when i fell for my 3rd child the dr told me to have an abortion because he said that i couldnt handle anouther child because of the way my oldest one is. but here they are all three and i love them all.

I applaud and encourage every individual to make their own choices regarding abortion. If you choose not to have an abortion then that is great! I think we should have more service allocated to make raising a child easier and more feasible for all women. My issue comes when we try to pass legislation to make abortion illegal or virtually inaccessible. Please, feel free to encourage people not to have abortions. Talk to them, offer them support, whatever you feel you need to do. All I ask is you do not pass legislation against it or criminalise it.

I applaud and encourage every individual to make their own choices regarding abortion. If you choose not to have an abortion then that is great! I think we should have more service allocated to make raising a child easier and more feasible for all women. My issue comes when we try to pass legislation to make abortion illegal or virtually inaccessible. Please, feel free to encourage people not to have abortions. Talk to them, offer them support, whatever you feel you need to do. All I ask is you do not pass legislation against it or criminalise it.

i see your point, if it is made illegal then people will go to back street abortionists, and that can kill not only baby but the woman aswell, i suppose if we are to have abortions its best to have it in a safe enviroment, i however would never ever have an abortion, but ther are better options out there, people all over the world are always adopting children, so put unwanted children up for adoption not kill them.

also they should lower the cut of point for abortions over here in britain i think its 12 weeks,

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.
And women who are against abortion should have them then? ...
Not only am I pro-choice and an atheist. I am also the proud mother of two very healthy and happy boys.:D

...

I have no children by choice.

I don't believe a child of someone who does not believe in God but believes in killing babies can grow up to be 'normal'.

I am fed up with your personal attacks. If I attacked you like you have been attacking me, I would have been banned weeks ago. This is bs.:mad:

I have no children by choice.

And we thank you for it.

I don't believe a child of someone who does not believe in God but believes in killing babies can grow up to be 'normal'.
Your definition of 'normal', to me, would entail a long stay in a mental assylum and shock therapy. Your definition of 'normal' is someone who watches Benny Hinn and praises the lord each time they fart. Enough said.

I am fed up with your personal attacks. If I attacked you like you have been attacking me, I would have been banned weeks ago. This is bs.
This is the internet sandy. I cannot "attack" you.

I'm not biting. This is just another obvious attempt to get me into a fight and get my thread closed/moved. You have been personal attacking me since I got here.:mad:

I kick your ass anyway...:D

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=sandy&word2=bells

I have no children by choice.

I don't believe a child of someone who does not believe in God but believes in killing babies can grow up to be 'normal'.

I am fed up with your personal attacks. If I attacked you like you have been attacking me, I would have been banned weeks ago. This is bs.:mad:

...

Our Lord will Decide whether you mortal will have children or not. Not you!

Just a few things I thought of while I was reading the replies:

By 6 weeks a babies' arms, legs, heart, jaw, and eyes have already started developing. If people actually knew they were killing this adorable little baby, maybe they'd do it less. Some would still do it. We call them liberals.

http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498210

Notice how you didn't mention a brain? Calling that thing in the picture 'adorable' would be the same as calling a wart adorable. It just a lump of cells with no consciousness attached to your body. If you wanna be technical, a fetus is a parasite, go look it up.

Also, you might wanna get it right; every liberal that I've ever talked to was pro-life and nearly every person on the right I've talked to has been pro-choice.

A Nation that kills its own children is a nation without hope.
Definition of a child from the dictionary: a person between birth and full growth; a boy or girl

Because of that definition, you're right killing a nation's children is the nations undoing; unfortunately it has nothing to do with abortion.

"Is it surprising that today we have become so morally blind (for wickedness blinds) that we save the baby whales at great cost, and murder millions of unborn children?"

Stop calling them children, they're not. They're fetuses. Oh yeah, I suppose that that also includes stop calling them babies, because they're not that either.

baby- a newborn or very young animal.

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.

Stop calling them things they're not for christ's sake!

... mistakes can be made by Dr's, for example, i was told that my son when i had the amniocentesis (sp) that my son would be born with a severe disability ... he now has Tourettes, ADHD, and he is bi polar [corrected for spelling just because, well, it was annoying me]


I don't mean to offend anyone, but I can't see where the doctor was wrong. He said you're son would have a severe disability, and not only did he have one, he had three! Explain to me where the doctor was wrong.

If people don't want abortion, fine, go back to your caves and don't watch it. Don't make other people's decisions for them.

If people want to kill babies they should NOT be allowed to do it legally. It's barbaric.:(

If people want to kill babies they should NOT be allowed to do it legally. It's barbaric.:(

So's what you say should be done to illegal immigrants.

I just dont buy into the idea for a second that these people are actually morally out-raged by the concept of a life being taken - i'll believe that the day i see the fundies on anti-war marches, or placarding outside animal laboratories.
You pretty much know the only reason christian fundies get offended by abortion is that its linked to promiscuousity and sex.
These people are all sexual repression and delicate sensiblities, far more representative of turn of the century traditionalism than anything to do with what Jesus was about.

Arresting them and deporting them is not barbaric. It's the sane thing to do.

And no, we hate abortion because it is baby-killing. Plain and simple.

If people want to kill babies they should NOT be allowed to do it legally. It's barbaric.:(

It's actually civilized since without civilization it would be butchery. Our technological advances made it possible to give people a choice without having to resort to possible death for all, or infertility.

We have been given a grave responsibility by technology and also the possibility to avoid a path towards a situation without hope, filled with despair.

Arresting them and deporting them is not barbaric. It's the sane thing to do.

I won't bother to remind you of your posts about land mines, shooters placed at the border, etc. Oops, I just did.:rolleyes:

We have a criminal invasion/destruction of our country. I support whatever it takes to stop it.

Land mines and shooters are deterrents. This is a war against illegal immigration. War uses landmines and guns. You don't want to get shot or blown up, then don't ILLEGALLY cross our borders. It's that simple.

And it's not the same as ripping a baby from it's mother's womb.:(

For the record i think in the vast majority of cases abortion isnt really permissible, i think the option should be there, but only for the small number of cases where it is.
Im certainly not going to put my name against women aborting their kids just so they can enjoy a few more years of sexual and financial freedom, thats just utterally vile.
My point is i just dont buy into the christian rights moralising over this, i think theres alot more going on there than just the porported belief of life being sacred.

It is if a pregnant woman steps on a landmine.

If you are against "killing babies", then you would be against killing all babies. Even those that are in the wombs of women crossing your border illegally.

The pregnant women who risk their baby's life by breaking the laws of a soverign nation should be charged with child endangerment/abuse. They are pathetic.

Would it be fair to say that you deal more in emotionally-driven polemic than appropriately-contextualised facts, sandy? You don't seem worth arguing with.

We have a criminal invasion/destruction of our country. I support whatever it takes to stop it.

Yep- it started with the arrival of the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria.

I'm all for safely securing our borders and reforming immigration policies to make it easier for people to legally immigrate. Almost all illegal immigrants come here in order to improve their lives and the lives of their children. I, a privileged American, cannot hold any anger or contempt against people seeking a better life. I also know we are not going to remove millions of people from our nation in mass deportations- we couldn't even clear out New Orleans before the hurricane hit.

And it's not the same as ripping a baby from it's mother's womb.:(

It IS NOT possible to take a baby from a mother's womb! A baby is already born! You people make other people agree with you because you says things that simply aren't true to try and make it seem more morally 'wrong' to do something. Would you get half the support you do if you actually called the thing what it actually is? A fetus, an embryo, whatever you like, just definitely NOT a child or a baby.

Once more-
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
child /tʃaɪld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[chahyld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural chil·dren.
1. a person between birth and full growth; a boy or girl: books for children.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ba·by /ˈbeɪbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-bee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by·ing.
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
fe·tus (fē'təs) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. fe·tus·es

1. The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.
2. In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

Call the baby whatever makes you feel better about killing it. It's not hurting me. But it is agonizing to the baby.:(

Call the baby whatever makes you feel better about killing it. It's not hurting me. But it is agonizing to the baby.:(

dead babies can't be agonized.

After 9 weeks, unborn babies can feel pain, yet 48% of all abortions are done after this point. {US Department of Health & Human Services}

source of the pain claim?

dead babies can't be agonized.


just out of curiosity how do you know they cant feal? they may be able to feal everything and anything!

there are the late abortions that drill through the babies scalp to kill them, and there have been cases where a "woman" has gone for an abortion and the baby has been at the bottom of a bucket making "agonising" noises!

just out of curiosity how do you know they cant feal? they may be able to feal everything and anything!

there are the late abortions that drill through the babies scalp to kill them, and there have been cases where a "woman" has gone for an abortion and the baby has been at the bottom of a bucket making "agonising" noises!

I have aborted plenty of fetuses in my life.

The fetus at 20 weeks gestation "is fully capable of experiencing pain. … Without question, all of this is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure." — Robert J. White, M.D.,PhD., professor of neurosurgery at Case Western University, Cleveland, Ohio, in testimony before the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. House of Representatives, March 21, 1996

"Ultrasonographic findings report specific fetal movements in response to needle punctures in utero. When neonates are born prematurely at 23 weeks gestation, they demonstrate highly specific and well-coordinated physiologic and behavioral responses to pain … validating outside the uterus what they were capable of manifesting inside the uterus." — Jean A. Wright, M.D., M.B.A., Clinical Associate Professor of Pediatrics, Emory School of Medicine, White Paper: Advances in the Understanding of Fetal Pain, Christian Medical Association
Unborn babies have heightened sensitivities

According to Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist at the University of Toronto, unborn babies between 20 and 30 weeks development may actually feel pain more intensely than adults. He says this is a "uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established; yet the higher-level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop."

Given the medical evidence that unborn babies experience pain, compassionate people are viewing abortion more and more as an inhumane and intolerable brutality against defenseless human beings.

During partial-birth abortion, "doctors" stab the baby in the base of its skull with huge scissors, then they suck its' brain out. It usually screams in agony. Sometimes when they don't get the whole brain out, it's still screaming from the bottom of the cold metal garbage can.:mad:

That's why Bush outlawed this barbaric procedure.

she said 9 weeks einstein.

I have aborted plenty of fetuses in my life.

i cant even begin to describe the hatred i feel for you right now!! :mad:

i cant even begin to describe the hatred i feel for you right now!! :mad:

jesus says to love all of god's children.

Going to kill 30 or more fetuses this week.

Saline abortion burns the baby to death.

"The doctors would abort the baby and then lay it on the table, where it would squirm until it died. ..They all had perfect forms and shapes. I couldn't take it. No nurse could."
--Joyce Craig, director of a Brooklyn clinic of Planned Parenthood. who assisted in abortion for two months, then quit. "Rachel Weeping" James Brtchaell, ed 1982 p 34

jesus says to love all of god's children.

Going to kill 30 or more fetuses this week.

ok if you want to bring religion into this:

God calls us to protect the defenseless, including children.
One of the key themes throughout the Bible and historical Christianity is that we should be concerned about the welfare of the poor, weak, and helpless. Many Scriptures make this very clear. In addition to the following verses, read what James wrote in the New Testament about religion that is pure and faultless (James 1:27). Although James was not writing about abortion, the principle is clear: We should be concerned about those who are unable to care for themselves.


Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked (Psalm 82:3-4).

Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, "But we knew nothing about this," does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? (Proverbs 24:11-12).

say lucifer...ever been to a hospital?

"One night a lady delivered and I was called to come and see her because she was 'uncontrollable.' I went into the room, and she was going to pieces; she was having a nervous breakdown, screaming and thrashing. The other patients were upset because this lady was screaming. I walked in, and here was this little saline abortion baby kicking. It had been born alive, and was kicking and moving for a little while before it finally died of those terrible burns, because the salt solution gets into the lungs and burns the lungs too. I'll tell you one thing about D & E. You never have to worry about a baby's being born alive. I won't describe D & E other than to say that, as a doctor, you are sitting there tearing, and I mean tearing- you need a lot of strength to do it- arms and legs off of babies and putting them in a stack on top of the table."
--Dr. David Brewer of Glen Ellyn Illinois

wow...cool story! post some more! makes me wish it was next week.

"Saline abortions have to be done in the hospital because of the complications that can arise. Not that they can't arise during other times, but more so now. The saline, a salt solution, is injected into the woman's sac, and the baby starts dying a slow, violent death. The mother feels everything, and many times it is at this point when she realizes that she really has a live baby inside her, because the baby starts fighting violently, for his or her life. He's just fighting inside because he's burning."

cool!

say lucifer...ever been to a hospital?


yes thanks, why?

i had to have my womb and ovaries ripped out because of idiot dr's.

yes thanks, why?

Ever investigated what goes on beyond the walls of a larger hospital, let's say one with research going on? Ever thought about how treatments come about?

Take a look at this link about the different abortion procedures.:eek:

http://www.acbspn.com/abortion_2.htm

In the most common suction abortion, the abortionist first paralyzes the cervix (womb opening). He then inserts a hollow plastic tube with a knife-like tip into the uterus. The tube is connected to a powerful pump with a suction force 29 times more powerful than a home vacuum cleaner. The procedure tears the baby's body into pieces and the hose frequently jerks as pieces of the baby become lodged. The placenta is then cut from the inner wall of the uterus and the scraps are sucked out into a bottle.:(

Ever investigated what goes on beyond the walls of a larger hospital, let's say one with research going on? Ever thought about how treatments come about?


what the expierments that are somtimes done on dead childrens organs wihtout they're perants permission ? those researches? yes i have thanks!!

...

Nope. Just trying to make a point on what REALLY happens during abortions. Here's another one:

Dilatation & Curettage (D&C)

Uncommon today and used during the first 10 weeks of pregnancy. This is similar to the suction procedure except that the abortionist inserts a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife up into the uterus. He then cuts the placenta and baby into pieces and scrapes them out into a basin. Bleeding is usually profuse.

Nope. Just trying to make a point on what REALLY happens during abortions. Here's another one:

Dilatation & Curettage (D&C)

Uncommon today and used during the first 10 weeks of pregnancy. This is similar to the suction procedure except that the abortionist inserts a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife up into the uterus. He then cuts the placenta and baby into pieces and scrapes them out into a basin. Bleeding is usually profuse.


a D & C is also what you have when you have a miscarraige

D&C is understandable after a natural miscarriage. It's not when it's used for abortion. Neither is D & E. Dilatation & Evacuation (D&E)

Performed during the second trimester (4-6 months) of pregnancy. This method has largely replaced saline and chemical abortions, which too frequently resulted in live births, a complication from the abortionist's perspective! A pliers-like instrument is needed because the baby's bones are calcified, as is the skull. There is no anesthetic for the baby. The abortionist inserts the instrument into the uterus, seizes a leg or other part of the body and, with a twisting motion, tears it from the baby's body. This is repeated again and again. The spine must be snapped, and the skull crushed to remove them. The nurse's job is to reassemble the body parts to be sure that all are removed.

http://www.acbspn.com/abortion_2.htm

D&C is understandable after a natural miscarriage. It's not when it's used for abortion. Neither is D & E. Dilatation & Evacuation (D&E)

Performed during the second trimester (4-6 months) of pregnancy. This method has largely replaced saline and chemical abortions, which too frequently resulted in live births, a complication from the abortionist's perspective! A pliers-like instrument is needed because the baby's bones are calcified, as is the skull. There is no anesthetic for the baby. The abortionist inserts the instrument into the uterus, seizes a leg or other part of the body and, with a twisting motion, tears it from the baby's body. This is repeated again and again. The spine must be snapped, and the skull crushed to remove them. The nurse's job is to reassemble the body parts to be sure that all are removed.

http://www.acbspn.com/abortion_2.htm


i agree with you all the way, there is never a good excuse for an abortion, if the baby is not wanted them they should go down the adoption route!

Amen. One other kind of abortion is
Salt Poisoning a.k.a. "Candy Apple Babies:

Most often used after the first trimester (first three months). The abortionist injects a strong salt solution directly into the amniotic sac (fluid surrounding the baby). The baby breathes and swallows it, is poisoned, struggles, and sometimes convulses. It takes over an hour to kill the baby. The mother delivers the dead baby in a day or two (sometimes alive!). Why "candy apple" babies? The corrosive effect of the salt solution often burns and strips away the outer layer of the baby's skin.

This exposes the raw, red, glazed-looking subcutaneous layer of tissue. The baby's head sometimes looks like a candy apple. Some have also likened this method to the effect of napalm on innocent war victims. This technique was originally developed in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany. (source: Abortion and Social Justice, NY: Sheed & Ward, 1972) Read about Gianna Jessen, who survived a salt poisoning abortion.

http://www.acbspn.com/abortion_2.htm

abortion is just anouther cog in the murder machine!

Agreed. And anyone who sees it in person or even on the net and still supports it can't be a real human being imo.

Agreed. And anyone who sees it in person or even on the net and still supports it can't be a real human being imo.

If you're not with me, you're not a real human being. Spoken like a Nazi.

You know what I say? If you're not born, you're not a real human being. Sure some abortion procedures can be gruesome, but so is any meat packing plant...would you stop eating beef just because the cows cry out in pain as they die?

Whether fetuses count as "sentient" life is one of the many moot questions in this world. Without a definite answer to that question (assuming there is is a definite answer to that question) it's one that is best left to the individual consciences of Americans.

abortion is just anouther cog in the murder machine!

Agreed. And anyone who sees it in person or even on the net and still supports it can't be a real human being imo.

These are the same people who support the US army in their imperial quest to destroy another nation, actively supporting the ultimate murder machine.

i agree with you all the way, there is never a good excuse for an abortion, if the baby is not wanted them they should go down the adoption route!

Saving the mother's life isn't a good reason? I'm glad you're establishing your lack of credibility right up front, rather than making us take a while to figure it out.

you would be singing out of the other side of your mouth if it was YOUR rights that were being denied.

Did you even read my whole post, Leo? Since you didn't, I'll explain: I said that these women should not be told by law that they can't have an abortion. It's unfortunate that a lot of women do it for reasons of personal lifestyle comfort, rather than health concerns...but it's still their right.

Ah, these mythical hordes who take these decisions so lightly. Are they the same ones who get pregnant in order to qualify for welfare handouts, I wonder? Nice little scam they've got going...

These are the same people who support the US army in their imperial quest to destroy another nation, actively supporting the ultimate murder machine.
Ironic, eh? :rolleyes:

Ah, these mythical hordes who take these decisions so lightly. Are they the same ones who get pregnant in order to qualify for welfare handouts, I wonder? Nice little scam they've got going...
Stupid scam. They don't know the expenses of having babies. They will simply get stuck in a crappy ife for the rest of their life, barely making every day. :bugeye:

i see your point, if it is made illegal then people will go to back street abortionists, and that can kill not only baby but the woman aswell, i suppose if we are to have abortions its best to have it in a safe enviroment, i however would never ever have an abortion, but ther are better options out there, people all over the world are always adopting children, so put unwanted children up for adoption not kill them.

also they should lower the cut of point for abortions over here in britain i think its 12 weeks,

This is the only reason I am for having abortion legal. However people are right when they say many selfish young people just use it as birth control nowdays. That is sick and shameful, yet somewhat hard to prove in a court of law. Perhaps after your 3rd abortion you should get a free tube-tied card.

During partial-birth abortion, "doctors" stab the baby in the base of its skull with huge scissors, then they suck its' brain out. It usually screams in agony. Sometimes when they don't get the whole brain out, it's still screaming from the bottom of the cold metal garbage can.:mad:


Good grief you come out with some crap.

Agreed. And anyone who sees it in person or even on the net and still supports it can't be a real human being imo.
So here you are, an avid watcher of the news, when you see people being killed in Iraq you come out with 'we're going to finish' said war? You actively support the killing of live people, either in other countries or at your border, and you dare say what you've said above? To quote Baron... aren't you "hippo-critical".:rolleyes:

Here is something you and your little playmate 'angel' seem to not understand. We support the right to choose. We do not support any Government taking control of a woman's womb and making decisions pertaining said womb.

There is no comparison between destroying terrorists and destroying innocent little babies.

There is no comparison between destroying terrorists and destroying innocent little babies.

So all the innocent people you kill in the process of "destroying terrorist"... oh wait.. collateral damage..:rolleyes:

sandy, you disagree with abortions, all well and good for you. Don't have one. But do not assume that it is your right to dictate what goes on in another woman's womb.

Good grief you come out with some crap.


So here you are, an avid watcher of the news, when you see people being killed in Iraq you come out with 'we're going to finish' said war? You actively support the killing of live people, either in other countries or at your border, and you dare say what you've said above? To quote Baron... aren't you "hippo-critical".:rolleyes:

Here is something you and your little playmate 'angel' seem to not understand. We support the right to choose. We do not support any Government taking control of a woman's womb and making decisions pertaining said womb.

You deny that this is what happens?

Exactly what right to choose are you supporting? The right to make all the wrong decisions until you are finally pregnant. Then, you decide, "oh, I really don't want to deal with this so I will abort." And, this may sound unsympathetic, you take can your until you have a baby you don't want argument and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!!! This is issue has always been about the decadence of society. Trumped up rights, my ass.

Disclaimer: The writer is not against all abortions only those that are used as another form of contraceptive.

Disclaimer: The writer is not against all abortions only those that are used as another form of contraceptive.

Agreed. But who are YOU to decided for someone else?

You deny that this is what happens?

Exactly what right to choose are you supporting? The right to make all the wrong decisions until you are finally pregnant. Then, you decide, "oh, I really don't want to deal with this so I will abort." And, this may sound unsympathetic, you take can your until you have a baby you don't want argument and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!!! This is issue has always been about the decadence of society. Trumped up rights, my ass.

Disclaimer: The writer is not against all abortions only those that are used as another form of contraceptive.

Oohh very pretty and colourful post.

I support the right of a woman to choose whether she has the child or not. Yes some women use it as a form of contraception, something I disagree with personally. But it is not for me to tell her what she can do with her womb.

There is no comparison between destroying terrorists and destroying innocent little babies.

Do you even have a bit of a grasp on how many babies and children have died as a result of our war against terror?

If you are going to cite facts against abortion you need use scientific sources- such as peer reviewed journals. Otherwise I am just not listening to you. All of you, please stop using emotionally charged arguments, I am fairly certain I can find a ton of emotionally charge arguments regarding regarding the pro-choice movement.

sandy:

Life begins at conception.

If that's true, then so what? You're quite happy to kill things that are living. Life alone is not your complaint.

A Nation that kills its own children is a nation without hope.

Which nation kills its children?

It's just wrong to kill babies and women who support doing it should not be allowed to have children.

I'd assume that any woman who wanted to kill babies wouldn't have children anyway.

If people want to kill babies they should NOT be allowed to do it legally. It's barbaric.:(

I agree.

And no, we hate abortion because it is baby-killing. Plain and simple.

No. Baby killing requires a baby. A human being is not a baby until it is born.

Thank God. Now maybe people will stop murdering our own American babies. The 1.5 million murdered every year are being replaced with babies of illegal aliens.:mad:

A bill prohibiting public funds from being used for most abortions has become law in Oklahoma after a deadline passed for the state's governor to veto the measure.

A good start. I pray all states follow. I never wanted my taxes to go toward killing babies.:mad:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2436956720070524?feedType=RSS&rpc=22

its not murder if the enity cannot survive on its own nor did it ever survive on its own your using loaded laguage which is a logical fallacy. I have a 2 part opionon on abortion part one is as a male i don't deserve an opinion on abortion and part 2 is if you want to outlaw abortion i'd better damn well see you lining up to adopt the babies that are be made

Killing babies is wrong. Research 'baby development'. It will horrify you how people kill babies in the name of 'abortion'. :(

By 6 weeks a babies' arms, legs, heart, jaw, and eyes have already started developing. If people actually knew they were killing this adorable little baby, maybe they'd do it less. Some would still do it. We call them liberals.

http://www.babycenter.com/general/1498210

there not babies there zygotes its not a baby untill its been born. once again your using loaded lanuage i'd like to keep debates here somewhat reasoned but your clearly not intrested in that from your word choice

"Is it surprising that today we have become so morally blind (for wickedness blinds) that we save the baby whales at great cost, and murder millions of unborn children?"

whales are decent creatures humans are not point refuted next

I'm not biting. This is just another obvious attempt to get me into a fight and get my thread closed/moved. You have been personal attacking me since I got here.:mad:

I kick your ass anyway...:D

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=sandy&word2=bells

you've been attacking anyone who disagrees with get of your high horse god everytime i read one of your posts it makes want to stab a white hot peice of metal in my foot cause by god that would less painfull then listening to your illogical arguments

We have a criminal invasion/destruction of our country. I support whatever it takes to stop it.

Land mines and shooters are deterrents. This is a war against illegal immigration. War uses landmines and guns. You don't want to get shot or blown up, then don't ILLEGALLY cross our borders. It's that simple.

And it's not the same as ripping a baby from it's mother's womb.:(

cept thats murder and quite possible a war crime

Here, let's define some terms here.


Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: 'em-brE-"O
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural em·bry·os
1 archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching
2 : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception —compare FETUS
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: fe·tus
Variant: or chiefly British foe·tus /'fEt-&s/
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural fe·tus·es or chiefly British foe·tus·es or foe·ti /'fEt-"I/
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth —compare EMBRYO
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: in·fant
Pronunciation: 'in-f&nt
Function: noun
1 a : a child in the first year of life : BABY b : a child several years of age
2 : a person who is not of full age : MINOR —infant adjective
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: ba·by
Pronunciation: 'bA-bE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural babies
1 : an extremely young child; especially : INFANT —see BLUE BABY
2 : an extremely young animal —baby adjective —ba·by·hood /-bE-"hud/ noun —ba·by·ish /-ish/ adjective
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.



Let's use appropriate, specific terminology from now on, ok?

Agreed. And anyone who sees it in person or even on the net and still supports it can't be a real human being imo.

you've denied the humanity of illegal aliens people who lives are supported by there bodies that to me is inhuman

there not babies there zygotes its not a baby untill its been born. once again your using loaded lanuage i'd like to keep debates here somewhat reasoned but your clearly not intrested in that from your word choice

Actually a zygote is a fertilized egg and, i believe, the organism when the cells first start dividing, it's an embryo at 6 weeks. I appreciate the attempt however.

Main Entry: zy·gote
Pronunciation: 'zI-"gOt
Function: noun
: a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell

No. Baby killing requires a baby. A human being is not a baby until it is born.
So a baby born prematurely at seven months is a baby, but a "fetus" at eight months is not a baby?

Is it the act of passing thru a vagina that converts a fetus with no rights into a baby? What about those "not of women born" (C-sections), are they babies? If so, then is it the cutting of the umbilical cord that converts a fetus into a baby?

I'd say, for starters, there should be no abortions past the point of fetal viability unless it's to save the life of the mother (self defense). This point will continue to shrink over time as technology improves.

Beyond that, we can talk about it. But abortion as birth control is repugnant and should be discouraged if not banned outright.

Totally agree.

I'd say, for starters, there should be no abortions past the point of fetal viability unless it's to save the life of the mother (self defense). This point will continue to shrink over time as technology improves.

There are few abortions passed the point of viability, most abortions happen in the first trimester. The earliest point of viability with the best medical technology we have is around 23 weeks. Most doctors believe that, bar some technological breakthrough, the viability point will not go much earlier. The youngest premature birth to survive EVER was at 21 weeks and six days. The baby weighed 10 ounces. The baby was extremely lucky to survive and hopefully will not have many future help problems due to her early birth. The doctor said that if he had known the baby was that young he probably would not have instituted the medical interventions he did. A full term baby is born at 40 weeks and a premature baby is born at or before 37 weeks. The vast majority of abortions take place very early in the pregnancy.

In fact, 88% of all abortions in the United States are obtained within the first 12-13 weeks after the last menstrual period (LMP).
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/after_12_weeks.html (sorry, I could not find a better source)

One big problem with abortions is that women do not have the money to pay for them. So they have to raise the funds to pay, and then you end up having an abortion in the early part of the second trimester instead of in the first trimester. Abortions in the later part of the second trimester are almost always due to medical reasons. Abortions in the third trimester would almost always be when the baby was not viable or the women's life is at serious risk. It is an expensive, painful procedure and the idea that anyone would use it as birth control is beyond my understanding.

So, barring the creation of an artificial uterus, abortions in the first trimester are of fetuses and embryos that would never be viable. Let's be clear here- abortions are forced miscarriages. A miscarriage is, essential, a form of abortion. We actually have the "abortion pill" which causes miscarriages.

One in three American women will have an abortion by age 45.
I have trouble believing 1 in 3 American women are cold blooded murders.

madanthonywayne:

So a baby born prematurely at seven months is a baby, but a "fetus" at eight months is not a baby?

Is it the act of passing thru a vagina that converts a fetus with no rights into a baby? What about those "not of women born" (C-sections), are they babies? If so, then is it the cutting of the umbilical cord that converts a fetus into a baby?

According to the law, an infant gains the full rights of a child from birth - whether vaginal birth or caesarian section.

The dictionary definition of the word "baby", posted by somebody else earlier in the thread, is a very young child that has been born. (Not that I place too much emphasis on dictionary definitions.)

To the right-to-lifers, a fetus at every stage of develop, from the first single cell of the fertilised egg, is "a baby". The term "baby" is used in an emotive way, to give the false impression that a fetus is in every respect the same as a child which is able to live independently outside the womb, at all stages of development. Thus, killing a fetus at any stage is implicitly or explicitly equated with infanticide. This muddying of the waters is a deliberate and dishonest distortion of the true situation. A fetus is not the same as an infant surviving on its own outside the womb. Thus, it does not follow that it ought to have all the same rights as an infant outside the room. That has to be established by rational argument, and not merely by adopting deliberately confusing terminology.

I'd say, for starters, there should be no abortions past the point of fetal viability unless it's to save the life of the mother (self defense).

What do you mean by "viability"? Viability with external life support? What if life can be supported but the child has an undeveloped brain or other organs, so that it will never be able to live a "normal" life?

But abortion as birth control is repugnant and should be discouraged if not banned outright.

That's fine. Now, do you have any statistics on what percentage of women (if any) use abortion as a method of retrospective birth control? I imagine the proportion would be vanishingly small.

Babies can survive outside the womb as early as 5 months. They feel pain at 5-6 weeks. Why would anyone want to kill them? Because they're an accident? Inconvenient? If someone doesn't want a baby, either don't have sex, be extremely careful, or get sterilized. They shouldn't kill it because it was not planned.:(

What about cases of rape or incest ?
How are you meant to prepare for those ?

The morning after pill for both. And going unreported is not an option.

so it's ok to kill a 1-day-old baby in your opinion? Not answering difficult questions is an option, and one you regularly take up. So I'm not hopeful of getting any kind of rational justification for the apparent contradiction in your thinking on this. Surprise me.

The morning after pill for both. And going unreported is not an option.
Could you please explain what "going unreported" means? And the morning after pill won't work for all rape victims, and it is not a 100% solution. Although I completely support making it accessible to all people and I think that people should use it if their birth control fails

so it's ok to kill a 1-day-old baby in your opinion? Not answering difficult questions is an option, and one you regularly take up. So I'm not hopeful of getting any kind of rational justification for the apparent contradiction in your thinking on this. Surprise me.
Morning after pill is a high dose birth control pill. Not an abortion pill. It takes a while for the sperm to get to the egg and fertilize it.

The victim has to report the crime to someone if they are underage and need to get a prescription. The morning after pill works by preventing conception.

And I'm not responding to anymore posts that are confrontational/personal attacks.

The victim has to report the crime to someone if they are underage and need to get a prescription. The morning after pill works by preventing conception.

And I'm not responding to anymore posts that are confrontational/personal attacks.

It is pretty difficult for people to report rape, sexual abuse, or incest to anyone. There have been attempts at creating laws mandating reporting and it has never worked out. I think that the morning after pill (plan B) should be made available over the counter to people regardless of age, although I believe it is not and currently you have to speak to the pharmacist before getting it. No one will use plan B as a preferred method of birth control more than once... it makes you too sick.

The victim has to report the crime to someone if they are underage and need to get a prescription. The morning after pill works by preventing conception.

And I'm not responding to anymore posts that are confrontational/personal attacks.

Err sandy, if they are underage, they need to get parental consent. If the child is being abused in the home, how in the hell do you think that child is going to tell the other parent? 'Oh guess what mum, dad had sex with me last night and I need your permission to get the morning afterpill'.

You obviously have no idea of what a rape victim goes through and your above post clearly shows you really have no clue what a victim of incest goes through.

Your post basically blames the victim if they fail to report it straight away and take the morning afterpill. In many instances, the victim of both rape and incest are too traumatised to report it straight away and the last thing on their minds is the morning afterpill. Many never go on to report it due to feelings of shame, guilt and due to the trauma they have suffered. Maybe you should start thinking with a bit more compassion. ....

Morning after pill is a high dose birth control pill. Not an abortion pill. It takes a while for the sperm to get to the egg and fertilize it.
Since when has your name been sandy? Abortion or prevention: both are equally likely to make the little baby Jesus cry.
And I'm not responding to anymore posts that are confrontational/personal attacks.
I certainly haven't personally 'attacked' you (either physically or in any other way). And if I'm confrontational it's because I see gaps in your scattershot thinking that you seem unwilling to fill. You consistently make the most outrageous claims then refuse to explain them or provide any evidence for them. Sorry, but that can't be allowed to pass without question or comment. Don't take it personally.

Since when has your name been sandy? Abortion or prevention: both are equally likely to make the little baby Jesus cry.


It is my obligation as a women's studies major to clarify confusion regarding the morning after pill.

Poor baby Jesus... no one treats him with respect and compassion anymore ;)

When someone is raped. they've been violated in every possible way. You honestly expect them to go straight to the police, what about small town communities ? what if you can't report it ? Often in small communities you end up an outcast and become depressed.

Babies can survive outside the womb as early as 5 months. They feel pain at 5-6 weeks. Why would anyone want to kill them? Because they're an accident? Inconvenient? If someone doesn't want a baby, either don't have sex, be extremely careful, or get sterilized. They shouldn't kill it because it was not planned.:(
That's the only decent thing you've said so far in sciforums...

Why does God Himself abort a large percentage of babies? (miscarriage)

Err sandy, if they are underage, they need to get parental consent. If the child is being abused in the home, how in the hell do you think that child is going to tell the other parent? 'Oh guess what mum, dad had sex with me last night and I need your permission to get the morning afterpill'.

You obviously have no idea of what a rape victim goes through and your above post clearly shows you really have no clue what a victim of incest goes through.

Your post basically blames the victim if they fail to report it straight away and take the morning afterpill. In many instances, the victim of both rape and incest are too traumatised to report it straight away and the last thing on their minds is the morning afterpill. Many never go on to report it due to feelings of shame, guilt and due to the trauma they have suffered. Maybe you should start thinking with a bit more compassion. Hell, maybe you should just start thinking.


All of your points are sound, ...

...
A lot of Sandy's arguements have holes you can drive a truck through, and ones which even such a ...person as her is well aware of. Seeing as right now I'm not in the mood for troll fishing I may return later - If I haven't got anything better to do.

Actually a zygote is a fertilized egg and, i believe, the organism when the cells first start dividing, it's an embryo at 6 weeks. I appreciate the attempt however.

i know i just wanted to see how people would react

It is pretty difficult for people to report rape, sexual abuse, or incest to anyone. There have been attempts at creating laws mandating reporting and it has never worked out. I think that the morning after pill (plan B) should be made available over the counter to people regardless of age, although I believe it is not and currently you have to speak to the pharmacist before getting it. No one will use plan B as a preferred method of birth control more than once... it makes you too sick.


actually its not the difficult for many women, yes ok granted there are women who wont report the rape because they dont want to seem like a slut but most women do report the attacks, (in the uk they do anyway), the biggest reason why some women wont report it is "the man was a family member or her husband).


in some states of america you can go along and buy the morning after pill, and i know in Uk you can go to the chemist and buy it over the counter aswell. the law was changed in the uk about 2 years ago.

actually its not the difficult for many women, yes ok granted there are women who wont report the rape because they dont want to seem like a slut but most women do report the attacks, (in the uk they do anyway), the biggest reason why some women wont report it is "the man was a family member or her husband).


Most rapes go unreported- 59% of rapes in the U.S. go unreported. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/reporting.html Most women find it extremely difficult to report rape because they are traumatized from it. If you report rape and have a rape kit done it is a like being hurt all over again for many women.

I personally know several survivors of rape and sexual assault in the UK. Some have reported it, others have not. I do not see a trend towards higher reports in the UK. Some people I know from the UK were treated very poorly by the authorities after reporting it. Here is some more information pertinent to rape survivors in the UK. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/3077635.stm

I volunteer as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault and domestic violence. What they go through is incomprehensible.

Please do not act as if things are fact when you do not have anything to back them up. In the U.S. (which is very similiar to the U.K.) these are the leading reasons women do not report.

Why Do Victims Not Report?

Some reasons given include the following:

It's a personal matter.
Fear of reprisal.
Think police are biased.
Want to protect the offender.
Feel partly responsible.
Felt there wasn't enough evidence and the case wouldn't be pursued.
Drunk or high when it happened.
Afraid they would not be believed.

Most rapes go unreported- 59% of rapes in the U.S. go unreported. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/reporting.html Most women find it extremely difficult to report rape because they are traumatized from it. If you report rape and have a rape kit done it is a like being hurt all over again for many women.

I personally know several survivors of rape and sexual assault in the UK. Some have reported it, others have not. I do not see a trend towards higher reports in the UK. Some people I know from the UK were treated very poorly by the authorities after reporting it. Here is some more information pertinent to rape survivors in the UK. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/3077635.stm

I volunteer as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault and domestic violence. What they go through is incomprehensible.

Please do not act as if things are fact when you do not have anything to back them up. In the U.S. (which is very similiar to the U.K.) these are the leading reasons women do not report.


unless you have lived through rape in the UK then you cannot assume to know what its like over here, and quite frankly i dont care where you volunteer, unless you go through rape then you can tell me what and the why's people do not report the crime, and please do not tell me that USA is very Similar to UK because we worlds apart in legal rates! the UK has a higher rate for catcahing the scums sucking assholes who violate men and women by taking away what they cherish, so please do not assume to tell me that you knwo whats its like for rape victims!

unless you have lived through rape in the UK then you cannot assume to know what its like over here, and quite frankly i dont care where you volunteer, unless you go through rape then you can tell me what and the why's people do not report the crime, and please do not tell me that USA is very Similar to UK because we worlds apart in legal rates! the UK has a higher rate for catcahing the scums sucking assholes who violate men and women by taking away what they cherish, so please do not assume to tell me that you knwo whats its like for rape victims!

Firstly, you do not know what I have or have not been through. To suggest that you do is silly. I do not pretend to know what you or anyone else here has or has not been through, and I do not ask them to tell me because this is not the place to speak about that. If you want links to survivors groups and message boards I am more than happy to provide them.

Secondly, I said the UK and the US are very similar. In my experience speaking with rape survivors in the UK it IS very similar. I have spoken at length with survivors from virtually every English speaking country, and for the most part everyone has similar stories. The list I provided was not something I wrote, it is from RAINN- the national sexual assault center and hotline in the U.S. It is the result of what survivors self-report and I have no reason to believe that it would be much different in the UK. I should have cited the list better. If you click on the link I provided you will find that list.

The UK has a conviction rate of around 7%. Yes, I do believe it is a few percentages higher than the conviction rate in the U.S., although I am not sure how either is calculated. My gender studies professor told me that the U.S. has the highest rate of sexual assault of all post-industrialized countries. I am not sure if this is true, and will have to look it up.

Why does God Himself abort a large percentage of babies? (miscarriage)
Because He is EVIL! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLL!!!!

According to sandy, of course....

God doesn't abort babies. Women do whether by choice or by their body's own rejection of the baby.

and you cannot condem a woman who cannot physicaly carry a child, miscarriages happen a lot, and its a natural abortion.

God doesn't abort babies. Women do whether by choice or by their body's own rejection of the baby.
Do you not believe that miscarriages are God's will?

God doesn't abort babies. Women do whether by choice or by their body's own rejection of the baby.

So now you are saying that women who miscarry, something that is totally natural and most of the time the woman does not even know she has miscarried, as being equally 'bad' as a woman having an abortion, thereby placing them in the path of "God's" wrath? What, you're condemning them to hell as well now?

You do realise that a woman does not choose to have a miscarriage? That it is totally outside of their control?

You do realise that a woman does not choose to have a miscarriage?

Oh, that's wrong, Bells!! I know of many women who have induced miscarriages. Why are you painting women as such saints?

Baron Max

Oh, that's wrong, Bells!! I know of many women who have induced miscarriages. Why are you painting women as such saints?

Baron Max

That's an abortion Baron. A natural miscarriage is something that is totally out of her control.

That's an abortion Baron. A natural miscarriage is something that is totally out of her control.

Huh? How can you tell the difference, Bells?

Baron Max

Some women induce miscarriages by throwing themselves down stairs, taking punches to their lower abdomens, taking drugs, drinking, and all kinds of vile attempts to kill their babies. Some women are barbaric.

Huh? How can you tell the difference, Bells?

Baron Max

When a woman is pregnant and she artificially brings on a miscarriage, through throwing herself down the stairs as one example, she is aborting through artificial means. A natural abortion is when the body rejects the embryo or foetus, something that is outside of her control.. as in she did not bring it on herself. For example, a woman goes to have an ultrasound and discovers the foetus has died without her even knowing while it was in the womb. Compared to a woman who is pregnant and throws herself down the stairs to kill her foetus. Big difference.

Huh? How can you tell the difference, Bells?

Baron Max
She's a woman. You don't know cause you have a dick. You dick... :p

:poke:

Some women induce miscarriages by throwing themselves down stairs, taking punches to their lower abdomens, taking drugs, drinking, and all kinds of vile attempts to kill their babies. Some women are barbaric.
Yeah... like ...hating non-americam people. "CHOP THEIR HEADS OFF CAUSE THEY ARE NOT HUMAN THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS! JESUS LOVES YOU!!" Yeeeeeeaaahhhh.....:rolleyes:

When a woman is pregnant and she artificially brings on a miscarriage, through throwing herself down the stairs as one example, she is aborting through artificial means. A natural abortion is when the body rejects the embryo or foetus, something that is outside of her control.. as in she did not bring it on herself. For example, a woman goes to have an ultrasound and discovers the foetus has died without her even knowing while it was in the womb. Compared to a woman who is pregnant and throws herself down the stairs to kill her foetus. Big difference.
Why are you still trying to talk with ...?

Maaaaan... you are patient!

3 of my 5 sisters have had miscarriages with partners that they were married and later had children with. You can tell if someone has a real miscarriage. It can really mess you up. They still are recovering from their loss.

Congratulations! accepting the anti-abotion bill sends your country yet another step closer to the stoneage.

If you are informed bij a dokter that your child will be born with severe mental or fysical handicapts why would you want that child to be born?
So it be able to live? what live ? If a person is missing an arm he can furfill a meanifull life but what about a person that is braindead ?

A lot of girl get raped all over the world. Would a 15year old girl who has to live with the burden of violation also have to sacrafice her life and future because some dude raped her?

think of all the unwelcome baby's. adoption you may say butt is that truly the solllution?

What is your next step, een anti-sex bill? you can only have sex with your spouce?

You americans have the strangest laws when it comes to sex. espacially the south. I'll never understand this.

Handicapped people are worth no less than non-handicapped. Life is life. Let them live.
And just imagine if people only had sex with their spouses. There would be so much less disease and drama.

I'm not talking about handicapted people in general sandy; i mean children born an open back, children they know will live only six months if kept in the hospital. children who will live like plants.
just making it clear before people think i have something against hadicaped people wich i defenately DON'T;

I don't know about you my dear but I guess the only partner you had sex with is the man you maried ? Not that i have a problem with that , that's your choise, isn't it.

Butt think of this. the way you see it, you can't even use condoms because that would take away the chances of future life.

therefore you can only have sex with the intend of children ?

I agree there must be laws so you can't have an abortion as you please butt there are surcomstances you should be able to make the choise if you so desire. that my point of view

I'm not married. I think everyone should use condoms unless they are trying to conceive.

Life begins at conception.

NOT according to the Good Book:

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood" Leviticus 17:11

http://bible.cc/leviticus/17-11.htm

Given the fact that the first red blood cells do not appear during embryological development until roughly day 21:

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec22/ch257/ch257c.html

And since whole blood comprises some 50% red blood cells, you can have no religious or moral objection to any abortion within the first three weeks...

Those "adorable" little pre-three week old jelly-beans are just that!

Some women induce miscarriages by throwing themselves down stairs, taking punches to their lower abdomens, taking drugs, drinking, and all kinds of vile attempts to kill their babies. Some women are barbaric.

All when reproductive services like abortion are unavailable. If God wanted to prevent abortions, he would. Since he has the power and does nothing, one can assume everything is according to his plan.

All when reproductive services like abortion are unavailable. If God wanted to prevent abortions, he would. Since he has the power and does nothing, one can assume everything is according to his plan.

not really god gave us free agency to do with what we desire, not until we die do we answer to what we have done, (thats if your a beliver of course)

I'm not married. I think everyone should use condoms unless they are trying to conceive.

what if you cant? what if you are allergic to the rubber in them?

and somtimes even when you do use a condom they can split, and the women can even make holes in them to get pregnant.

but i am against abortion, and it should never be used has a form of contraception.

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

"Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master."

Job 3:2-4,11-19


"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
Exodus 21:22-25

(So, if men cause a woman to have a miscarriage, they only get a fine. If they cause the woman to be killed, then it's a life for a life.)

Does God Kill Babies?
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."--Psalm 137:9
The bible is not pro-child. Why did God set a bear upon 42 children just for teasing a prophet (2 Kings 2:23-24)? Far from demonstrating a "pro-life" attitude, the bible decimates innocent babies and pregnant women in passage after gory passage, starting with the flood and the wanton destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, progressing to the murder of the firstborn child of every household in Egypt (Ex. 12:29), and the New Testament threats of annihilation.

Space permits only a small sampling of biblical commandments or threats to kill children:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

now this is only if you belive in god and the bible that is, many people do not.

NOT according to the Good Book:

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood" Leviticus 17:11

http://bible.cc/leviticus/17-11.htm

Given the fact that the first red blood cells do not appear during embryological development until roughly day 21:

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec22/ch257/ch257c.html

And since whole blood comprises some 50% red blood cells, you can have no religious or moral objection to any abortion within the first three weeks...

Those "adorable" little pre-three week old jelly-beans are just that!
Wow! What a clever argument! LOL! :D

There are very few abortions before 5 weeks. Most baby killers won't do them before 6. Many women don't even know they're pregnant until at least 4weeks since they often are still waiting for a period.

If people are allergic to latex there are other natural condoms available.

God gives us free will. Some of us use it wisely. Some don't.

So, just to clarify, you concede to my point, and have no objection to any abortion carried out within the first three weeks.

Right?

No. I disagree with all baby-killing. Life begins at conception. There is NO reason to kill an innocent baby.

Oh I see! So, born-againers get to just choose which bits of the bible apply to them then!? You ignore the bits that are inconvenient?

No. I disagree with all baby-killing. Life begins at conception. There is NO reason to kill an innocent baby.

Life begins before conception. Sperm is not dead. And neither are egg cells. I already corrected you once before, which means you are repeating yourself.

No. I disagree with all baby-killing. Life begins at conception. There is NO reason to kill an innocent baby.

You are absolutely correct. There is no reason to kill a baby. However an embryo and/or foetus is not a "baby".

No. I disagree with all baby-killing. Life begins at conception. There is NO reason to kill an innocent baby.

I agree with you on the part that you just can't have an abortion because you don't want the baby anymore butt there are eceptions my dear. I have 3 children of my own and a forth on the way. I redirected my hole life around to take car off them and they mean everything to me. I am very glad that all 4 are in prestine health. But let me say this, If our forth would be a syndrome of down, we would have had an abortion. I have enormous respect for parents whose children are severe handicapt and decide to let them life and take care off them. enormous respect.

I wonder, are you willing to sacrafice everything to take care of them. I mean 24/7. I you do i'll have respect for you too.

Butt i can't and will not sacrafice the childhood of my other children. Because that's what you will do.
Btw i know what i'm talking about because i have a relative with down syndrome.
And then there are even worse thing that can happen to a child.

If every girl that had an abortion would putt them up for adoption, us forterhomes would be full of children who nobody wants.

Instead of sending soldiers abroad, US goverment should use that money for those children. to give them what they diserve.

No. If everyone used adoption instead of baby-killing, Americans who want children wouldn't have to go to other countries to get them.:(

We would have 1.5 million more Americans/year. This would help balance the 1.5 million illegal aliens we're getting.:(

I know some wonderful people with Down's Syndrome. If their mothers had killed them the world would be a lesser place.

Here's another thing i would like to know your opinion about sandy :

A few years ago a woman in germany had an accident; she was declared dead; butt the baby in her belly was still alive so the doctors kept the woman on machines till the baby could be born SEVERAL weeks later.

I think that's some fine thinking on the part of the doctors.
How do you as CONVERVATIST think about that ????

I think it's fine. The woman probably would have wanted that. Women who love their babies enough to carry them usually want them to live.

Thank God. Now maybe people will stop murdering our own American babies. The 1.5 million murdered every year are being replaced with babies of illegal aliens.:mad:

A bill prohibiting public funds from being used for most abortions has become law in Oklahoma after a deadline passed for the state's governor to veto the measure.

A good start. I pray all states follow. I never wanted my taxes to go toward killing babies.:mad:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2436956720070524?feedType=RSS&rpc=22

First, they are not "babies" until they become viable and are born. and you would prefer children born into loveless environments just so they can be born? Remember what women went through before legalized abortion? Back alley abortionists in some hell hole in New York?