more than 15 people shot - most in the head (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/02/14/university.shooting/index.html)

Another shooting in an American school. Why? What the f*ck is going on with the USA? Will gun control laws help? Have any States actually put tough laws down and if so did they stop or lower gun violence?

I want to know if this killer was another one of these kids on anti-depressants or some other drug for 20 years and then finally snapped. In many of the other school shootings the killers were on Ritalin for a decade or more and then taken off it because their parents thought they were zombied out most of the time. If this is the case again then I think the doctors that over prescribe these drugs should face some sort of punishment. The Pharma industry starts handing out perks to the Med students as early as second year. In hopes they will prescribe their medications.

If that's not a case then I still want to know how and why this idiot could get his hands on guns and ammo and go on a rampage.

It's a fad.

Like smoking.

Or reading the Tipping Point.

or crocs

V-Day Mass
.
Acre

5 are dead now. More will probably die. Gun laws won't stop POS like this. Better parenting will. These derelicts are the products of pathetic parents. You want to see why a pet or child is the way it is? Look at the owners/parents. There's WAY too much freedom and lack of discipline. It's harder to get a driver's license than to have a kid. :(

Its not always a parents fault for the actions of the child. At a point and I'd say college is well past that point personal responsibilty takes over parental responsibility.

There are 5 dead and 12 more in the hospital, some with head wounds. I suspect more will die. :(

It's a fad.

Actually seems accurate. Not sure why so many people decide they want to do this vs random people. Though even though it seems like a lot it has only been a few people, I guess. Maybe it is because Columbine got so much attention.

Untill you wake up to yourselves these will keep happerning. How many times are you going to put up with torchering kids at school until they snap?
how long are you going to put up with the lack of efective mental health care?

Im baffled that you dont realise that these kids are a product of sociaty rather than "evil"

Not surprised, the university system has become too stressful.

Not surprised, the university system has become too stressful.

Was that serious? If so, why doesn't this happen in Korea, for example?

gun control?
mental health system?
Bulling procidures?
Lower fees?
Ability to concentrate on studying without being forced to work to suport yourself at the same time, like uni was a privlage

Was that serious? If so, why doesn't this happen in Korea, for example?

Support systems. Gun control laws.

Every single student I met in graduate school was either on medication or taking counselling or hopping labs and advisors.

i think it is ironic that with bush in office and gun control laws weakened that there seems to be more of these shootings

Actually seems accurate. Not sure why so many people decide they want to do this vs random people. Though even though it seems like a lot it has only been a few people, I guess. Maybe it is because Columbine got so much attention.

Suicide can be a fad. (http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/columns/cityside/n_10105/)

apparently they kid wasn't a student.

i think it is ironic that with bush in office and gun control laws weakened that there seems to be more of these shootings

So what dude, Illinois has some very strict gun control laws. Maybe it was brought from out of state.. there are laws against that too in many places. He was looking to kill people for a reason. I dont think gun control laws would have prevented that. If so, why does this never happen in say, Utah, where students are allowed concealed carry?

So much for that argument.

PS bush has little to do with this actually, he SUPPORTED the DC Gun Ban's renewal, although he was allowed the assault weapons ban to expire.

i think it is ironic that with bush in office and gun control laws weakened that there seems to be more of these shootings

I was wondering when someone was going to blame W. :rolleyes: People are out of control. They do stupid things. They think they are under much more stress than anyone else. They are selfish. They focus on their own problems and treat others like cr@p. They do desperate things for attention.

"When a deranged idiot decides to go shoot people he is going to chose a place where he feels he is less likely to face retaliation ... at least until he does what he wants to do. What better place than a place where guns are outlawed? You'll notice he didn't wander into a gun show and open fire. I know, the example is extreme ... but the point is made".*

The POS murderer (dressed in black) shot from a stage in a lecture hall before shooting himself. Steve Kazmierczak, 27, was a former student at NIU. He was the vice president of the Academic Criminal Justice Association and a grad student social worker currently attending U of IL.

*From today's Boortz: http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=514549&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490

5 are dead now. More will probably die. Gun laws won't stop POS like this. Better parenting will. These derelicts are the products of pathetic parents. You want to see why a pet or child is the way it is? Look at the owners/parents. There's WAY too much freedom and lack of discipline. It's harder to get a driver's license than to have a kid. :(

Thats right, lets blame it on someone else. Last time it was the liberals, this time it's the parents. What's next, the Aliens from Mars ?

Actually, I agree with Sandy!!!

The whiny-pussy generation just can't take life's obstacles. Have you heard of quarter life crisis?? Not to mention bad parenting. There were guns 20-40 years ago all over the place and there were no shootings...
My mother-in-law said they actually took guns to school for target practice when she was a child!!!

Actually, I agree with Sandy!!!

The whiny-pussy generation just can't take life's obstacles. Have you heard of quarter life crisis?? Not to mention bad parenting. There were guns 20-40 years ago all over the place and there were no shootings...
My mother-in-law said they actually took guns to school for target practice when she was a child!!!

This generation will have to face obstacles that previous generations have never faced on the same scale. Please provide examples. Sure, we've mellowed, but we are the product of our past and our society. (which by the way, older generations have greater part in shaping.)

Thats right, lets blame it on someone else. Last time it was the liberals, this time it's the parents. What's next, the Aliens from Mars ?

Of course it's the person's choice how to behave, so they are responsible. But
kids aren't facing anything different from years ago except maybe more availability of drugs. Many are spoiled-rotten brats. I stand by what I said.

Of course it's the person's choice how to behave, so they are responsible. But
kids aren't facing anything different from years ago except maybe more availability of drugs. Many are spoiled-rotten brats. I stand by what I said.

as you have every right too. The kids of this generation also have every right not to be prejudiced by the acts of a few.

Local news reports say the POS murderer was "off his meds".

Ya think? :confused: :(

Another shooting in an American school. Why? What the f*ck is going on with the USA? Will gun control laws help? Have any States actually put tough laws down and if so did they stop or lower gun violence?

Let’s keep some perspective here. There are about 300 million people in the U.S., and about 16 million college students. When your population is that large, there is always going to be a huge number of bizarre, random things that result in a few deaths per year – but that doesn’t mean any of them are serious problems or particularly worth worrying about. Assuming you aren’t a drug dealer or gangster, your odds of being killed by a gun in the United State are so close to zero that no sensible person should seriously worry about it.

i could be wrong.. but didn't it say that he WAS NOT a student attending the school?

i could be wrong.. but didn't it say that he WAS NOT a student attending the school?

He was not a student. He attended U of IL. He was a former student. There are 7 dead now. :(

But kids aren't facing anything different from years ago except maybe more availability of drugs. Perhaps, but one thing that has definitely changed is the media. These people know that they are going to be on all the papers and news sites. That must motivate some of them. An unfortunate consequence of having such effective media.?

Perhaps the killer should always be kept anonymous?

This generation will have to face obstacles that previous generations have never faced on the same scale. Please provide examples.

Have you ever heard of the recession and the dust bowl?? WW 1 and 2?

But if you refer to the coming peak oil and energy problems I agree with you. That's why we should toughen up today's kids instead of letting them grow up in a cacoon....

Perhaps, but one thing that has definitely changed is the media. These people know that they are going to be on all the papers and news sites. That must motivate some of them. An unfortunate consequence of having such effective media.?

Perhaps the killer should always be kept anonymous?

I agree. They make them into icons. Also, for many, God has been removed from their world views so with no money and no hope, what could be better than a Hollywood-esque blaze of glory?

Sad, really.

I think violent video games are not helping either. They desensitize people. :(

Update on story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html

I agree. They make them into icons. Also, for many, God has been removed from their world views so with no money and no hope, what could be better than a Hollywood-esque blaze of glory?

Sad, really.

im sorry, did you just imply that religion is the answer to violence?

its ok, i'll hold in the laughter the best i can. :rolleyes:

He was not a student. He attended U of IL. He was a former student. There are 7 dead now. :(

hmm do we know how former? a couple months vs a couple years.. etc.


I think violent video games are not helping either. They desensitize people. :(

Update on story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html

i disagree. sure video games are violent. but even before that kids would play similar games - you know, before toy guns were considered paraphernalia lol. <--which i also think has alot to do with it.

Actually, I agree with Sandy!!!

The whiny-pussy generation just can't take life's obstacles. Have you heard of quarter life crisis?? Not to mention bad parenting. There were guns 20-40 years ago all over the place and there were no shootings...
My mother-in-law said they actually took guns to school for target practice when she was a child!!!

Thanks for the laugh.

hmm do we know how former? a couple months vs a couple years.. etc.


google is your friend. He was 27:

"Originally from Champaign, Ill., Kazmierczak had been a student at NIU in the spring of 2007, where he had majored in sociology. He had been studying at the University of Illinois - Campaign most recently, according to NIU school officials."

More:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4296984

Thanks for the laugh.

You are welcome. Oh, my, was that an argument?

You are welcome. Oh, my, was that an argument?

You made only made a claim yourself, not an argument. Noticing a pattern with Syzygys interactions: everything Syzygys says is a fact not requiring support. Supporting arguments are only required of others. OK then!

In most broad categories I've only seen cases of improvement in newer generations compared to prior ones. IQ and athletics for a few easy examples.

A pictorial analogy might help you.

This is you guys:
http://www.hilltopperhaven.com/interviews/rhodes/rhodes1.jpg

This is us:
http://www.ezlotogura.com/Site/Blog/Entries/2007/9/4_FIBA_Champions_&_NY_Knicks_Draft_Curse_files/shapeimage_1.jpg

You are stupid, (fact proved below) so this is the last one for you:

You made only made a claim yourself,

Did you have a hard time to understand the simple fact that there were LESS schoolshootings 2-4 decades ago? If you think otherwise, please feel free to show all the shootings in the 60s and 80s. The only one I recall is the dude in Texas, and NOW we have one in every other week. So I simply stated a well known FACT, and you are trying to argue it? Stupid...

So please stop the non-sequitur attacks and try to concentrate on the TOPIC. Otherwise adios....

P.S.: I understand the frustration when one is trying to debate me. Not many can win... :)

I think violent video games are not helping either. They desensitize people. :(

Update on story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html

Of course you're right, video games clearly influence people, I'm sure we all remember how just after the release of pacman every kid started running around darkened rooms, swallowing pills, and listening to repetative music....;)

So we have video games, the parents, godlessness, and the fact that kids face too much pressure(even when they are apparently 27), what else can you people find to baselessly blame?

I wasn't disputing the number of shootings (if my making no such argument was not enough of a clue...), I was only laughing at you're comment about my generation. You're the one who brought it up.

Of course you're right, video games clearly influence people, I'm sure we all remember how just after the release of pacman every kid started running around darkened rooms, swallowing pills, and listening to repetative music....;)

So we have video games, the parents, godlessness, and the fact that kids face too much pressure(even when they are apparently 27), what else can you people find to baselessly blame?

Marilyn Manson. It was definitely Marilyn Manson's fault.

im sorry, did you just imply that religion is the answer to violence?

its ok, i'll hold in the laughter the best i can. :rolleyes:

What was your solution, again?
I don't think God wants us to blow eachother away. We want that.

Marilyn Manson. It was definitely Marilyn Manson's fault.

That man is a cowpat from the devils own satanic herd, you're right it must have been him.:D

This is merely a symptom of the disease society has become. Yes by all means, the solution is to constrain the masses further, maybe make it so anyone who goes to college has to get an RFID inserted in their pisshole right after the pisstest. You are all a bunch of criminals - what have to got to hide?

What was your solution, again?
I don't think God wants us to blow eachother away. We want that.

go read something.

:DYes, that will help keep them busy. Reading is a great pass time and I think it's a step in the right direction. Maybe more should be done, though.

not them. you.
if you think religion promotes peace you are seriously misinformed.


you can believe in a God all you want, but it won't help humanity one bit until you start believing in PEOPLE.

"Do unto others" is what all faiths are based on, which I think IS believing in people.
"Religions" can be a whole different and deadly matter.

I blame the manufacturers of black clothing, don't they know what harm they are doing to the youth of America??!?!??

...
...
...
I want to know if this killer was another one of these kids on anti-depressants or some other drug for 20 years and then finally snapped. In many of the other school shootings the killers were on Ritalin for a decade or more and then taken off it because their parents thought they were zombied out most of the time. If this is the case again then I think the doctors that over prescribe these drugs should face some sort of punishment. The Pharma industry starts handing out perks to the Med students as early as second year. In hopes they will prescribe their medications.

If that's not a case then I still want to know how and why this idiot could get his hands on guns and ammo and go on a rampage.

I saw an article today that the shooter had stopped taking some kind of prescription medication and had bought his guns legally (in other words he had zero prior criminal record). I know in California, to get a gun you also have to have a clear psychiatric record as well; however, I don't know if that applies to the shooters state.

Flag, i wonder if you will concider this a basless claim as well

I blame 2 things

Lack of social surport including (but not limited to) lack of a decent social security system, lack of social housing, lack of a DECENT min wage, lack of UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, lack of UNIVERSAL MENTAL HEALTH CARE, lack of social housing ect

Second thing i blame is the second amendment and lack of total gun abolishment. Hell here even COPS arnt alowed to take there guns home, just about the ONLY people who can have guns in the house are farmers. Everyone else they have to be locked away OFF site

every kid started running around darkened rooms, swallowing pills, and listening to repetative music....

Yea raves are awesome ;)

you forgot runing from ghoasts:p

Of course you're right, video games clearly influence people...,So we have video games, the parents, godlessness, and the fact that kids face too much pressure(even when they are apparently 27), what else can you people find to baselessly blame?

I think it's a combination of all of the above.

..Lack of social surport including (but not limited to) lack of a decent social security system, lack of social housing, lack of a DECENT min wage, lack of UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, lack of UNIVERSAL MENTAL HEALTH CARE, lack of social housing ect

Are you serious? What in the hell does ANY of that have to do with a POS puke who planned this thing for a freakin week? :mad:

...Second thing i blame is the second amendment and lack of total gun abolishment. Hell here even COPS arnt alowed to take there guns home, just about the ONLY people who can have guns in the house are farmers. Everyone else they have to be locked away OFF site

Again, I disagree. When you have some psychotic who is determined to murder people, he WILL find a way to get a gun. Guns aren't the problem. Morons are...:(

Update: 54 shots fired, 22 people hit

Again, I disagree. When you have some psychotic who is determined to murder people, he WILL find a way to get a gun. Guns aren't the problem. Morons are...:(

Update: 54 shots fired, 22 people hit

How many school shootings would there have been in the last year if guns were illegal? The same amount? No.

The fact that people know they can just get a gun from anywhere is probably the biggest reason why many adopt such tactics during a mental breakdown. It's also a painless suicide and a Hollywood ending to ones life.

Ban guns and public shootings will decline. That's a promise.

Allow concealed-carry and crimes will drop. Guaranteed. If just one person had a gun, this POS would have been stopped from getting off 54 rounds. :mad: And hitting 22 students. :mad:

Again, I disagree. When you have some psychotic who is determined to murder people, he WILL find a way to get a gun. Guns aren't the problem. Morons are...:(

Update: 54 shots fired, 22 people hit

Morons are the problem, so why allow guns to be readily available to them?

Of course it's the person's choice how to behave, so they are responsible. But
kids aren't facing anything different from years ago except maybe more availability of drugs. Many are spoiled-rotten brats. I stand by what I said.

I forgot to mention, It's that attitude that drives so many kids to be rebellious in the first place.
Rebellion is all well, until they start shooting people.

Allow concealed-carry and crimes will drop. Guaranteed. If just one person had a gun, this POS would have been stopped from getting off 54 rounds. :mad: And hitting 22 students. :mad:

No, instead you will have a shoot out with 108 rounds fired and 44 hit.
Or, you could have the other dude with a gun shoot at everyone in range.. hows that ?

Flag, i wonder if you will concider this a basless claim as well

I blame 2 things

Lack of social surport including (but not limited to) lack of a decent social security system, lack of social housing, lack of a DECENT min wage, lack of UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, lack of UNIVERSAL MENTAL HEALTH CARE, lack of social housing ect

Second thing i blame is the second amendment and lack of total gun abolishment. Hell here even COPS arnt alowed to take there guns home, just about the ONLY people who can have guns in the house are farmers. Everyone else they have to be locked away OFF site

I think you could easily back those statements up so I wouldn't consider them baseless, in fact I think you're thinking along the right lines. As far as I'm aware gun crime in countries where guns aren't readily available is lower.
I'm sure some social issues are to blame aswel, but some that are thrown up seem a little out, after all there are certain things that everyone must go through and yet only a limited amount pull a gun out in school to get their kicks.
I think you're probably right it's a problem along the lines of mental health care, although having said that the details on this guy are sketchy at best, so it's likely everyone has their own reason, but there may be some common factors involved. I can't really see these common factors being the ones I previously mentioned, for example millions(maybe over a billion?) play violent computer games, albeit not all involving guns, and almost all of them seem fine.:shrug: Spidergoats facetiousness about black clothing is also a good example.

you forgot runing from ghoasts:p

Now THAT was a voyage to trip out city to remember.:p

I think violent video games are not helping either. They desensitize people. :(



Oh, sure. I have lots of crazy ideas from games.
But I don't have the guns to carry it out. Why ? Because I live in Australia.
Keep on blaming something else... Whats next Bowling causes kids to chuck grenades ?

I think it's a combination of all of the above.

And rap music too I presume?

Allow concealed-carry and crimes will drop. Guaranteed. If just one person had a gun, this POS would have been stopped from getting off 54 rounds. :mad: And hitting 22 students. :mad:

Makes no sense. More guns = more deaths.

It only takes a bit of stress or depression to get someone to use a gun either on themselves or other people, this is why we have school shootings in the first place, and yet, you want to hand out guns to all of them? It would be carnage.

I wouldn't be safe at a college were everyone had a gun.

Allow concealed-carry and crimes will drop. Guaranteed. If just one person had a gun, this POS would have been stopped from getting off 54 rounds. :mad: And hitting 22 students. :mad:Your crimes may drop but the number gun related homicides will rise.

These people use guns because they know they will be able to kill more effectively than the populace around them. If everyone has guns wont they just get bigger guns and armor? Perhaps a long range rifle instead? Suburban arms race? Admitttedly I don't know what you can get your hands in the US but can you see my logic?

I can just see the whole campus with their handguns trying to take this guy down. Bullets going everywhere... It's not like the killers are scared of getting shot considering they shoot themselves anyway.

Guns are not the solution here they are part of the problem.

I think violent video games are not helping either. They desensitize people. :(

Update on story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html

video games aren't the problem i no plenty of people who play violent video games and aren't violent i also no people who don't play video games and that are.

Allow concealed-carry and crimes will drop. Guaranteed. If just one person had a gun, this POS would have been stopped from getting off 54 rounds. :mad: And hitting 22 students. :mad:

On the contrary. If other students in that lecture hall were armed, there would be a lot more deaths. Imagine if you will the panic in that hall when he opened fire. Hell, you don't even have to imagine it. It has been widely reported how many were shot trying to escape and many have referred to what they experienced in there as "madness". Now lets just imagine in that panic and students scrambling over seats and each other to reach the exits, a few armed students decide to open fire while trying to get a steady shot without being jostled by fleeing students. Do you really think a gun battle in a room with well over a hundred students attempting to flee would work? Or would a few more hapless students simply get caught in the crossfire? One does not shoot into a classroom of terrified students. Think of the horror that occurred when the police and soldiers stormed the school in Beslan.

If just one person had been armed, there would have been absolute pandemonium (probably more than there already was) in that room and there would have been more deaths.

On the contrary. If other students in that lecture hall were armed, there would be a lot more deaths. Imagine if you will the panic in that hall when he opened fire. Hell, you don't even have to imagine it. It has been widely reported how many were shot trying to escape and many have referred to what they experienced in there as "madness". Now lets just imagine in that panic and students scrambling over seats and each other to reach the exits, a few armed students decide to open fire while trying to get a steady shot without being jostled by fleeing students. Do you really think a gun battle in a room with well over a hundred students attempting to flee would work? Or would a few more hapless students simply get caught in the crossfire? One does not shoot into a classroom of terrified students. Think of the horror that occurred when the police and soldiers stormed the school in Beslan.

If just one person had been armed, there would have been absolute pandemonium (probably more than there already was) in that room and there would have been more deaths.

I'm not advocating students have CCP on campus, and certainly you raise an interesting point, but there's simply no way you can be sure of what you speculate here. Suppose on properly trained person is in the room with a pistol, and they see this nutjob start opening fire on the collected masses, how can you say they could not have stopped him cold with a well placed shot?

I know it sounds too wild west, and like I said, I'm not advocating the position, but you presume a scenario where guns are blazing indiscriminately and more people die. I'm saying you can't possibly know that would be the outcome.

Regardless, gun control laws never stopped anybody from obtaining a gun, if that person was committed to getting a gun. That's like saying because cocaine is illegal, nobody can obtain coke. It's a pipe dream, at best. Do you really think something like the law is going to stand in the way of some nut who is committed to going all Columbine on a room full of people?

Blame the gun, blame the lawmakers, but this comes back to one person making a choice, and once that is set in motion, nothing the government can do will stop them if they know what they're doing. A better idea would be to look at the root causes of why these nutjobs go off like they do, and see if there are common indicators in their behaviors that might help us identify the next shooter, before he/she has a chance to go off.

You will never get guns off the streets, no matter how many laws you pass.

It has to get a lot more popular before anyone will take it seriously, it seems.

"Hey, bob, check out this new shooting fad, all we gotta do is shoot stuff, and we're an instant celebrity.. Oh and we can get those kids that look like fags too.."

Bob: "Damn fags,Let's git em,"

If only there were a way to convince them to commit suicide without the murder beforehand.

What is the policy in the US towards registering handguns vs assualt rifles?

How easy is it to get one?

Two Purdue students were arrested on charges of possession by the West Lafayette Police Department today.

Responding to a loud music complaint, the Police Department conducted a drug investigation in the apartment of Jordan C. Wells after illegal drugs were seen in plain view.

Two pounds of marijuana, nearly $4,000 in cash and a loaded AK-47 assault rifle with additional ammo were found on the premises.



http://www.purdueexponent.com/index.php/module/Section/section_id/2?module=article&story_id=9305

I'm not advocating students have CCP on campus, and certainly you raise an interesting point, but there's simply no way you can be sure of what you speculate here. Suppose on properly trained person is in the room with a pistol, and they see this nutjob start opening fire on the collected masses, how can you say they could not have stopped him cold with a well placed shot?


Properly trained? This would of course depend on where they happened to be sitting in the lecture hall. If they were in the front row, they might have had a fairly clear shot. In the middle to back rows, they would have had to try to line up the shot as people rushed past them and in front of them in their bid to escape. Unless the individual had sniper training, I doubt it would have been successful. Now imagine in a lecture hall filled with over 100 students and one person steps out from behind the screen at the front and begins shooting. Then another person in the middle of the lecture hall stands up and starts shooting (lets assume this individual is armed and is trying to kill the original shooter). A third person, also armed could very well shoot them both, the original shooter and the first person who was attempting to stop him. After all, in the utter confusion that would have ensued when the first person started shooting, you simply would not know who was who and you would attempt to kill anyone with a gun in that room, lest they try to kill the innocents trying to escape.

I know it sounds too wild west, and like I said, I'm not advocating the position, but you presume a scenario where guns are blazing indiscriminately and more people die. I'm saying you can't possibly know that would be the outcome.
No of course not. But it is easy enough to imagine that in moments of utter panic and fear, things can usually go awry and people can and do die.

Regardless, gun control laws never stopped anybody from obtaining a gun, if that person was committed to getting a gun. That's like saying because cocaine is illegal, nobody can obtain coke. It's a pipe dream, at best. Do you really think something like the law is going to stand in the way of some nut who is committed to going all Columbine on a room full of people?

It might have made it that little bit harder and possibly give them second thoughts. This shooter acquired his guns legally, he had a license to purchase firearms. Restricting his ability to do so might have just caused him to have a change of mind. At the end of the day he legally bought his weapons with ease.

Blame the gun, blame the lawmakers, but this comes back to one person making a choice, and once that is set in motion, nothing the government can do will stop them if they know what they're doing. A better idea would be to look at the root causes of why these nutjobs go off like they do, and see if there are common indicators in their behaviors that might help us identify the next shooter, before he/she has a chance to go off.
I think trying to diagnose someone with such thoughts and making it harder to access weapons legally might prevent future shootings. Even if it stops one, then it could be deemed a success.

You will never get guns off the streets, no matter how many laws you pass.
I know. But you can make it harder for people to buy legally.

Regardless, gun control laws never stopped anybody from obtaining a gun, if that person was committed to getting a gun. That's like saying because cocaine is illegal, nobody can obtain coke. It's a pipe dream, at best. .. and if cocaine was made legal more people would be addicted to it and it would cause more deaths. That's why it is illegal. You did not choose a very good analogy there. It demonstrates the argument you are opposing.

If a burglar wants to get into your house he can. Does that mean you don't lock the doors and windows? No you make it as hard as possible.

Intoducing harder gun laws will reduce the number of guns in a community, which will make it harder for people to get guns and ammo when they snap.

It'll also reduce people killing each other out of spite.

it also reduces the chance you will get shot for taking out your fucking MOBILE. What your all discussing is a sociaty of FEAR where everyone is a potentual hostile. Think iraq times 1000. Kid acts SLIGHTLY suspisious for whatever reasons, could be hes sleeping with someone he shouldnt be or hiding the fact that hes smoking a joint so you shoot him. Kid pulls out his mobile in class you shoot him

Seriously is THIS what you honestly WANT???????????

shit. Then I'm in trouble. No more playing snake in class...

I stand by my post. If even one kid/teacher had a concealed weapon he could have taken out the POS before he shot 22 people.

This POS was an f'd-up cutter who got thrown out of military service. That should tell you something right there. He was a loser posing as a functioning member of society. He hid his service discharge and drugs. He was in a nut house. He KNEW he could walk into a class and kill people because no one else would be armed--like shooting fish in a barrel. :mad:
Someone should have been watching/monitoring this guy a LOT more closely. He chose to murder and injure people. He should have been institutionalized for the self-cutting alone. Those people are really messed up. He co-authored a paper on parasuicides the criminological term for prison self-injury. Here's the abstract:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1745-9133.2006.00111.x

Another gun-free zone massacre. When will people wake up and get a
clue?:(

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_re_us/niu_shooting

I think there's more to this guy than anyone is saying. I think he had some kind of political thoughts about death and violence. He was supposed to be interested in peace and social work. Maybe this was just more of his posing as someone he was not. Something doesn't fit.

.. and if cocaine was made legal more people would be addicted to it and it would cause more deaths. That's why it is illegal. You did not choose a very good analogy there. It demonstrates the argument you are opposing.

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? The example I have is that alcohol consumption actually rose during prohibition. It was a classic case of irony; the actual outcome was in opposition to, and in mockery of, the intended outcome.

Anyone who wants cocaine now can get it. And all evidence I've heard and read indicates that those in states with strict gun control laws are still able to easily acquire firearms illicitly.

I'm going to add drugs to my list. I forgot about all the bs drugs/anti-depressants kids are taking these days:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=43033

:(

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? The example I have is that alcohol consumption actually rose during prohibition. It was a classic case of irony; the actual outcome was in opposition to, and in mockery of, the intended outcome.

Anyone who wants cocaine now can get it. And all evidence I've heard and read indicates that those in states with strict gun control laws are still able to easily acquire firearms illicitly.What is easier to get now? Illegal cocaine or legal alcohol? Do you really think cocaine would be harder to get if it were made legal?

Sure it is possible to get cocaine but it isn't really that easy. It's not like going down to the corner store.

Interesting article. http://www.medfac.usyd.edu.au/news/features/2006/061214.php

"The Australian example provides evidence that removing large numbers of firearms from a community can be associated with a sudden and on-going decline in mass shootings, and accelerating declines in total firearm-related deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides."

For me, because I have no interest in using illicit drugs, and therefore have no contacts, alcohol is easier to obtain. But for many minors, drugs such as cocaine and marijuana are easier to obtain than alcohol. Liquor stores face strict punishments for selling to minors; drug dealers operate outside the law, and have no reason to restrict who they sell to. If you have money, you can get cocaine. The cocaine criminalization really only acts as a price support. Increased interdiction raised the price, leading to the rise in popularity of methamphetamine, which is generally considered an even more destructive drug.

Increased restrictions of firearms could make them slightly harder to obtain. But the feds can only do so much. Australian style gun confiscation wouldn't be possible in this country without changing the constitution. Guns could be easily made underground, and no doubt Chinese manufactured arms would be smuggled into the country. Since I am law abiding, I would be disarmed. Only the hardcore criminals and the police would be armed.

I'm going to add drugs to my list. I forgot about all the bs drugs/anti-depressants kids are taking these days:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=43033



Those are my feelings as well.

- N

I am always amazed by how many people - even many people here on sciforums, apparently - are utterly unable to evaluate things rationally. There are only around 12-25 murders/year in schools in the United States. With about 70 million people enrolled in schools, this means that your odds of being murdered at school are much less than 1 in a million. For comparison, that's about the same number of students who die in sports accidents every year. School shootings are a trivial problem that people (especially the media) like to blow way out of proportion. Your odds of being killed by a gun in the United States are already trivially low. Your odds of being killed by a gun while at school are basically indistinguishably close to zero.

I do not think that educated young people considering their lives meaningless enough to take down a few more people in resentment is insignificant.

I do not think that educated young people considering their lives meaningless enough to take down a few more people in resentment is insignificant.
When it's a few per year out of many millions, then yes, it's insignificant.

I think Ann Coulter said it best: "Doesn't it seem like a lot of liberals are about two Prozacs away from mayhem?" :eek:

http://www.anncoulter.com/

I want to know if this killer was another one of these kids on anti-depressants or s

Stephen Kazmierczak had been taking Paxil and other antidepressants (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2008/02/214001.php)


well well well, if this it true, not much of a big surprise there.

The POS murderer's girlfriend said he was acting "normally", not erratic like others said: :eek:

"He wasn't erratic. He wasn't delusional. He was Steve; he was normal."

What the hell kind of "normal" person shoots 22 (!!!) innocent people? :mad:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331008,00.html

:eek:

Only the hardcore criminals and the police would be armed.

Exactly.

What the hell kind of "normal" person shoots 22 (!!!) innocent people?

A normal person.. that loses it.

There is no known police profile for serial murderers.

- N

Neildo

Your kidding right
there are LOTS of profiles on serial killers



Psychology and development

Serial killers are specifically motivated by a variety of psychological urges, primarily power and sexual compulsion. They often have feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness, sometimes owing to humiliation, bullying, and abuse in childhood and the pressures of poverty and low socioeconomic status in adulthood. In many cases, serial killers commit crimes to compensate for these factors and to provide a sense of potency and often revenge by giving them a feeling of power, both at the time of the actual killing and afterwards. The knowledge that their actions terrify entire communities and often baffle police adds to this sense of power. This motivational aspect separates them from contract killers and other multiple murderers who are motivated by profit. For example, in Scotland during the 1820s, William Burke and William Hare murdered people in what became known as the "Case of the Body Snatchers." They would not count as serial killers by most criminologists' definitions, however, because their motive was primarily economic.[citation needed] Another recent theory about the compulsion of serial killers, propounded by Helen Morrison, states that serial killers are not a result of sexual abuse, inadequacy, or socioeconomic status, but are rather the result of retarded emotional development. The low level of emotional development, arguably, causes serial killers to have fractured or disparate personalities - that is they are missing components that are usually present. Low emotional development also explains some common traits among serial killers such as enjoying holding soft materials against their mouths (being the primary sensory organ of infants) which was observed in Richard Otto Macek, John Wayne Gacy and others - the material often being women's panties because of the material's softness.[citation needed]

The Helen Morrison theory also suggests that a serial killer has not developed basic levels of emotional control and that, as a result, a serial killer has "feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness, sometimes owing to humiliation and abuse" which draw them to killing; rather, the act of killing is actually a kind of experimentation, which is uninhibited due to the subject's low or non-existent level of sympathy/empathy with the victims. It is arguable that serial killers are in fact trying to understand their own existence by inflicting pain, killing, and experimenting with victims' dead bodies. This also explains some of the macabre practices of serial killers such as Ed Gein, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and others.[citation needed]

The element of fantasy in a serial killer's development is extremely important. They often begin fantasizing about murder during or even before adolescence. Their fantasy lives are very rich and they daydream compulsively about domination, submission, and murder, usually with very specific elements to the fantasy that will eventually be apparent in their real crimes. Others enjoy reading stories or seeing photographs in magazines featuring rape, torture, and murder. In some cases, however, these traits are not present.[citation needed] Some serial killers display one or more of what are known as the "MacDonald triad" of warning signs in childhood. These are:

Fire starting, or arson invariably for the thrill of destroying things, for gaining attention, or for making the perpetrator feel more powerful.
Cruelty to animals (related to "zoosadism"). Many children may be cruel to animals, such as pulling the legs off spiders, but future serial killers often kill larger animals, like dogs and cats, and frequently for their solitary enjoyment rather than to impress peers.
Bed wetting beyond the age when children normally grow out of such behavior.
When caught and tried in a court of law in the United States, some serial killers will plead not guilty by reason of insanity. In most U.S. jurisdictions, the legal definition of insanity is still generally based upon the classic common law "right or wrong" test delineated by an English court in the 1843 M'Naghten case.[4]

The M'Naghten rule, as it is generally known in the legal profession, hinges upon whether the defendant knows the difference between right and wrong at the time of the offense. With some serial killers, extensive premeditation, combined with lack of any obvious delusions or hallucinations that would hinder the defendant's ability to elude detection after committing multiple murders, make this defense extremely difficult and almost uniformly unsuccessful in achieving a not guilty verdict. However, it does allow the defense to introduce evidence about the killer's background that would normally be deemed inadmissible (for example, a history of having been abused as a child), in hopes that some sympathy from the jury will spare the client a death sentence.

Viewed 19/02/08 at 08:46 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer)





Mass murder by individuals

Outside a political context, the term "mass murder" refers to the killing of several people. Examples would include shooting several people in the course of a robbery, or setting a crowded nightclub on fire. This is an ambiguous term, similar to serial killing and spree killing.

The USA Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a mass murder as "[involving] the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event."[citation needed]

Mass murderers may fall into any of a number of categories, including killers of family, of coworkers, of students, and of random strangers. Their motives may range from revenge to financial gain to religious fanaticism to mental illness.[1] Many other motivations are possible, including the need for attention or fame [2][3][4].

Workers who assault fellow employees are sometimes called "disgruntled workers," but this is often a misnomer, as many perpetrators are ex-workers. They are dismissed from their jobs and subsequently turn up heavily armed and kill their former colleagues. In the 1980s, when two fired postal workers carried out such massacres in separate incidents in the US, the term "going postal" became synonymous with employees snapping and setting out on murderous rampages. One of the 1980s most famous "disgruntled worker" cases involved computer programmer Richard Farley who, after being fired for stalking one of his co-workers, a woman by the name of Laura Black, returned to his former workplace and shot to death seven of his colleagues, although he failed in his attempt to kill Black herself.

Unlike serial killers, there is rarely a sexual motive to individual mass-murderers, with the possible exception of Sylvestre Matuschka, an Austrian man who apparently derived sexual pleasure from blowing up trains with dynamite, ideally with people in them. His lethal sexual fetish claimed 22 lives before he was caught in 1932.

Viewed 19/02/08 at 08:46 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murderer)

Only the hardcore criminals and the police would be armed.

Yeah, so the criminals can continue to take out as many people as they want since the stupid people who aren't packing can't drop their @sses before they get out the first shot.:mad:

Letting criminals "shoot fish in the barrel" is pathetic. Concealed carry is the only answer.

I hate the ghoulishness of shooter threads. But sometimes, I have a deep need to strike at the belly of the Beast, even if I come up short. Read the whole post, and you may understand.

I'd like to second Nasor's thoughts about the overplaying of the shooter threat, and take the implications of magnified threat a little bit further. You may find this disturbing to follow, even if you've already thought seriously about what I'm hoping to relate here.

Something is emerging in USAmerican society that is infinitely more ominous than any imitative acting-out among young murderer-suiciders. US educational institutions are becoming the prototypes and incubators of a radically new society. There really is a New American Century struggling to be born, and it's unlike any that came before. Those of us who love freedom in the USA are heading for the fight of our lives, and the fight of our nation's life.

We are fast transitioning into new and Orwellian era on USAmerican campuses: A surveillance and security culture is emerging that is on track to surpass the profundity of the police states we loathed as our enemies, and the enemies of freedom in the last century.

This burgeoning security culture is changing our society more swiftly than the Iron Curtain did Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe, a surveillance culture descended like an enormous weight upon freedom. Although popularly resented, the pervasive Soviet security apparatus gradually, but radically altered perceptions and relationships throughout every society in its shadow. Macro-psychological shocks administered directly by Soviet troops, the KGB, and satellite-state security agencies had a withering effect on free expression, on human confidence, on empathy, and on happiness.

A similarly profound change is right now getting underway in US society. But this societal shift is stealthier; more targeted. More effective. At the most formative time in early adulthood, young USAmericans are being immersed in a new way of life, where privacy is surrendered with hardly a second thought, and scarcely a whimper (much less outcry) of protest. Higher Education means highly suggestible times for young USAmericans. Post-9-11 is also a highly suggestible period for our country as a whole- we're still unbalanced by rational dissonance over perceived and media-amplified threats.

The USA is now embroiled in the fight of our nation's life that is certain to become as profound as the Civil War and the Civil Rights eras. Liberty has lost a lot of ground while few USAmericans have taken notice. In The Shock Doctrine, Naomi Klein describes how traumatic events serve as a vehicle for radical and abrupt societal change.

With every shooting, US institutions of learning are responding, and the implications are profound. A new security industry is booming, while the experience of coming of age in the USA is radically changing. Hardly anyone is taking real notice, or putting up any visible protest. If we continue a process of shock -> heightened security, without stepping back and examining how this accelerated culture-shift is reshaping us, we are going to lose our grip on open, freedom-cherishing society, all for the price of assuaging exaggerated risks and fears. A feedback loop can easily ensue, where every shock, and every downturn is popularly responded to with the welcoming of "enhanced" security, and the submission to incrementally smaller and smaller apportionment of personal privacy and freedom.

This is not a conspiracy. This is a spontaneous sociopolitical virus that has overrun many other societies before, and that has invariably resulted in tyranny and social breakdown. In our case, the virus has mutated into something even better concealed behind seemingly benign and rapidly metastasizing private and state security institutions. The shocks that ushered in the Soviet security state were World War 2, and then direct shock tactics applied by government policy upon the population. In our new mutation of the virus, the shocks are isolated perceptually from the government: Shooters; terrorists; illegal aliens.

Our defenses are compromised in the USA. We suffer from a deep-seated popular exceptionalist hubris, reassuring us that tyranny is what happens in the rest of the world, where people suffer the flaws the we don't share, of (fill in the blank with Liberalism, godlessness, backwardness etc.)__________________.

If you're a USAmerican who is not concerned about the trend I'm describing; if you don't believe it's happening, and you think I'm exaggerating the danger to freedom, I certainly don't want to be like you- but somehow I still envy you. If you see things similarly as I do, and you cherish freedom, then let's start putting our heads together, because we're going to find ourselves in the middle of one hell of a fight soon. It's not too late to fight, and it's not too late to figure out how to fight, before we find ourselves behind a gilded iron curtain.

I still say concealed carry is the answer. If the teacher or one student had a gun he could have taken out the POS before he shot anyone.

Let's all pack heat, and shoot our classmates and countrymen if they reach for it. That will calm things down. Lock and load. God blast the USA.

I still say concealed carry is the answer. If the teacher or one student had a gun he could have taken out the POS before he shot anyone.

You think in that split second before he pulled the guns out they could have shot him? Or should they have just opened fire because he stepped out from behind the screen in the front of the room? Honestly, think before you type. Actually THINK.

By the time half of them realised he was there, he was already shooting.

Let's all get ready to shoot our classmates and countrymen if they crack. That will calm things down.

No. If a POS like the one who shot up NIU pulls a gun and aims it at anyone, he deserves to be dropped. Why let him kill someone first?

No. If a POS like the one who shot up NIU pulls a gun and aims it at anyone, he deserves to be dropped. Why let him kill someone first?

Did you ever bother to think as to what caused the guy to go on a killing spree? If you can fix that, then you can avoid mindless solutions like arming everybody to the teeth with lethal weapons.

Sandy: "If a POS like the one who shot up NIU pulls a gun and aims it at anyone, he deserves to be dropped. Why let him kill someone first?"

Hail, yeah. Look, Sandy: theres anotherun: An Accomplice! He's got a gun too! Shoot dat shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter of the shooter too. Git some!

Sandy? Git up, Sandy!!

Did you ever bother to think as to what caused the guy to go on a killing spree? If you can fix that, then you can avoid mindless solutions like arming everybody to the teeth with lethal weapons.

Of course. I listed all my reasons. I don't care what the F*** his reasons are. Someone should have dropped him before he shot up the place. :mad:

Of course. I listed all my reasons. I don't care what the F*** his reasons are. Someone should have dropped him before he shot up the place. :mad:

If that's your attitude, then I hope you enjoy the upcoming school shooting massacres.

No. If a POS like the one who shot up NIU pulls a gun and aims it at anyone, he deserves to be dropped. Why let him kill someone first?

If it is gods will that someone join him at his side who are you to stand in his way?

Sandy: "I don't care what the F*** his reasons are. Someone should have dropped him before he shot up the place."

At last, it has become clear to me: Sandy is not a whitebread Californicating Christy heading over the Brinkley. He can only be a Hutu warrior from Burundi, with a righteous machete. My compliments on your excellent assimilation of the English language, Ngakau. But we don't need your kind of swift justice in the USA.

No, I'm one of the smart Americans who knows that conceal-carry works. You want to watch a bunch of innocent people get shot up by a POS? Not me. :mad:

Gun laws won't stop POS like this. Better parenting will. These derelicts are the products of pathetic parents. You want to see why a pet or child is the way it is? Look at the owners/parents. There's WAY too much freedom and lack of discipline. It's harder to get a driver's license than to have a kid. :(

I child can have the very best parents in the world yet still suffer from a psychiatric condition that is not the fault of the child or the parents. Reports are that this guy had recently stopped taking medication, presumably for a psychiatric condition. He has been reported by all as a model student and loving “normal” person. He bought his weapons legally.

will see that these sad events have little to do with parenting and everything to do with the easy availability of guns in the USA. Remove the automatic right to own a weapon and these school massacres will reduce in number and eventually stop. End of story.


MOD HAT: I have removed the personal atacks. Please refrain from using them in the future or i will have to start deleting posts

Soon, most USAmericans will all be taking their prescribed anxiolytics (Patriot Pills) on schedule, and nothing will ever bother us again: All our sons and daughters will defer dangerous librul edukasions, to safely shoot terrists from up-armored Imperial Walkers in the Colonies. McCain (then ReaganBot777) will protect us from all evil, and provide us with Perpetual and Universal Anti-Anxiety. We'll smile at the comforting crackle of gunfire Freedom Fire: So another cluster of POSs (weapon-drawing POSs will operate in groups) bites the dust. We'll look back and puzzle vacantly over the worries of today. Disturbed youths will be nothing more than a hazy memory.

So just relax, Hercules. Sandy is the New American, for our New Century. So what- Pass the Xanax- Look! There's a free 9mm round in every bottle! Is this a great country?

Or what?

I child can have the very best parents in the world yet still suffer from a psychiatric condition that is not the fault of the child or the parents. Reports are that this guy had recently stopped taking medication, presumably for a psychiatric condition. He has been reported by all as a model student and loving “normal” person. He bought his weapons legally.

will see that these sad events have little to do with parenting and everything to do with the easy availability of guns in the USA. Remove the automatic right to own a weapon and these school massacres will reduce in number and eventually stop. End of story.

So, no one can have a shotgun anymore? Or a rifle? They are the most basic of hunting weapons.

Soon, most USAmericans will all be taking their prescribed anxiolytics (Patriot Pills) on schedule..., and nothing will ever bother us again: All our sons and daughters will defer dangerous librul edukasions, to safely shoot terrists from up-armored Imperial Walkers in the Colonies. McCain (then ReaganBot777) will protect us from all evil, and provide us with Perpetual and Universal Anti-Anxiety. We'll smile at the comforting crackle of gunfire Freedom Fire: So another cluster of POSs (weapon-drawing POSs will operate in groups) bites the dust. We'll look back and puzzle vacantly over the worries of today. Disturbed youths will be nothing more than a hazy memory. So just relax, Hercules. Sandy is the New American, for our New Century. So what- Pass the Xanax- Look! There's a free 9mm round in every bottle! Is this a great country?Or what?

Sounds like you missed your haldol. Since the liberals got prayer out of school, the schools have gone to hell. Most Americans do not take drugs. And nothing bad will happen to us unless a liberal is elected POTUS. Then we're F'd.

Sounds like you missed your haldol. Since the liberals got prayer out of school, the schools have gone to hell. Most Americans do not take drugs. And nothing bad will happen to us unless a liberal is elected POTUS. Then we're F'd.

thats fucking stupid even if we have a great president bad shit will still happen at times and just because someone is liberal doesn't make them bad. you if you don't want both sides to be equal than your part of why this country is so f'd up

I should not have responded to hype. I should have known better but it's too late to remove the post. This is a thread about POS that shoot up schools. We can take the liberal debate to another thread. But not here. No more...

when will the americans learn, if you sell guns like you do, then there will be things like this, you havea violent society!

guns dont kill people
people kill people
yeah...people with guns

We have always had guns. We were more heavily armed before the 60s when it became unfashionable to pack heat. These problems of POS shooting up schools is not from guns. It is angry, spoiled rotten brats acting out for attention. They would find a way to get a gun if they wanted to--even if guns were outlawed.

We have always had guns. We were more heavily armed before the 60s when it became unfashionable to pack heat. These problems of POS shooting up schools is not from guns. It is angry, spoiled rotten brats acting out for attention. They would find a way to get a gun if they wanted to--even if guns were outlawed.


yeah sure they would be able to get guns if they wanted them, but they wouldnt be able to hold of them very well. and i dont know if all these kids are brats just misunderstood!

These problems of POS shooting up schools is not from guns. It is angry, spoiled rotten brats acting out for attention.
Are you an expert on this?

yeah sure they would be able to get guns if they wanted them, but they wouldnt be able to hold of them very well. and i dont know if all these kids are brats just misunderstood!

Misunderstood how?

Are you an expert on this?

yes

yes
What qualifications do you have?

Plenty

Misunderstood how?



yes


kid wouldnt do this has much if they were not bullied to the extent they are, if teachers were willing to do somthing for these kids then it wouldnt be so bad.

I agree bullying is bad. I agree there should be no tolerance for that. But government school teachers are so liberal, they allow just about anything (except Jesus/God, Christianity, morals, ethics, honor, patriotism and integrity. EVERYTHING else goes...)

I agree this is part of the problem but plenty of kids have been bullied and don't shoot up other kids. The problem is much deeper than that. It involves
-lack of God in their lives
-bad/incompetent parents
-violent tv/videos
-drugs
-bad thinking/decisions/actions...

I agree bullying is bad. I agree there should be no tolerance for that. But government school teachers are so liberal, they allow just about anything (except Jesus/God, Christianity, morals, ethics, honor, patriotism and integrity. EVERYTHING else goes...)

I agree this is part of the problem but plenty of kids have been bullied and don't shoot up other kids. The problem is much deeper than that. It involves
-lack of God in their lives
-bad/incompetent parents
-violent tv/videos
-drugs
-bad thinking/decisions/actions...


now this is NOT a dig at you and i hope you dont read it ike that:

but we cannot blame the lack of god for thos sort of behaviour, when my son was just little he was first diagnosed with ADHD, and i took him to see a locum doctor who said:

there is nosuch thing has ADHD its because you dont take him to church very often, if at all.

now people should stop blaming the lack of god and look at themselves and otehr people to see if there is somthing they can do to help

Tommy can't help but feeling alone,
Walking the halls with his head hung low.
And he's a much more beautiful person
Than he'll ever know.
High school kids can be so nasty
In a cut-throat war for popularity.
A much more beautiful person than he'll ever know.

now this is NOT a dig at you and i hope you dont read it ike that:but we cannot blame the lack of god for thos sort of behaviour, when my son was just little he was first diagnosed with ADHD, and i took him to see a locum doctor who said: there is nosuch thing has ADHD its because you dont take him to church very often, if at all. now people should stop blaming the lack of god and look at themselves and otehr people to see if there is somthing they can do to help

I didn't take it personally. And I will answer with all due respect because I like you.

The schools started going to hell when they took God out. I don't have time to do the research but I would bet there is a direct correlation. ADHD is real but private/Christian schools treat it with intense discipline/Christian education and have very few problems with it. I'm not saying anything about you or your child (every case is different) but I know what I see.

I think if someone was focused on God and lived his life accordingly, he would not go shooting up schools. The POS who shot up NIU gave his girlfriend the book "Anti-Christ". Plenty of people were helping him and he still chose to shoot up the innocent kids.:(

From today's Boortz: How long should it take a principal to fire a teacher who touches students inappropriately? About three seconds: "You are fired." But in Oregon it takes months for the agency that licenses Oregon teachers to discipline teachers. Not even fire them. But just discipline them.

Or there is another option: cut the teachers a deal. To get a low-life middle school government teacher, Kenneth John Cushing, to leave immediately ... the administration had to cut him a deal. What did this creep do? They called it "inappropriate touching." In other words, he fondled about eight little girls. :mad: Government officials agreed that if Cushing resigned, that they would conceal his misconduct from the public. So if a potential employer called the school looking for a reference, the school would simply say that he left for personal reasons. They would lie about this creep's actions. And some teachers got away with more ... promised cash settlements, health insurance and letters of recommendation. :mad:

Over the past five years, almost half of Oregon teachers that were disciplined for sexual misconduct left the school district with these "confidential agreements." :mad: The practice of giving these creeps confidentiality is so widespread that government school officials across the country call it "passing the trash."

There couldn't be a better phrase.

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1203227713317430.xml&coll=7

But that's irrelevent to the issue of school shootings.

It addresses how pathetic most of the gov school teachers are.

The POS who shot up NIU gave his girlfriend the book "Anti-Christ". Plenty of people were helping him and he still chose to shoot up the innocent kids.:(

I assume you mean "The Antichrist" by Nietzsche? If so, it's basically required reading in almost any full course of philosophy (and so a college student's merely owning it is not necessarily indicative of his agreement with it). That book is definitely antichristian, but paradoxiically perhaps to you, it is a very life-affirming and positive book. Nietzsche viewed religion as essentially life-denigrating because they tend to downplay the importance of life, in favor of rewards that come after death. His view was that life matters, and that you should strive for rewards here first and foremost.

Nietzsche was a rugged individualist who happened to take note that Christian teachings have a certain communal (almost communist) bent to them, what with their focus on the community, the poor, the weak, and a lot on how we, as human beings, are not worthy and only succeed (if we do at all) by the grace of God, and even then only succeed after we die. There is little about striving for personal greatness here and now, and we are told that "meek" ultimately inherit the earth and the wealthy are the ones who have nearly zero chance of making it to heaven. Having a belief that there is virtue in struggle and success in this life, he thus wrote that the religion "turns every value into worthlessness, every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul."

In point of fact, I think most Americans agree with Nietzsche that there is virtue in attending to material (and to a lesser extent intellectual) priorities here on Earth. Few would agree with Christian thinkers that taking pride in one's hard-earned accomplishments is a "sin" or that it's especially hard for a rich man to get into heaven (as compared to a poor one). (Since the "Christian thinker" who posited that rich men cannot easily enter heaven was Christ, that is sort of an issue).

I'd suggest that, if the shooter at NIU read the book, he misunderstood it. He likely focussed on a few controversial passages, rather than readong it for deeper meaning. Nietzsche also said, "Posthumous men—myself, for example—are not as well understood as timely ones, but we are listened to better. More precisely: we are never understood—hence our authority."

The book is anti-Christian. So was the POS murderer. The latest news reveals he was planning his massacre for over a week. :(

It addresses how pathetic most of the gov school teachers are.

"gov school"? You mean the public schools where most of our children go? Several bad teachers doesn't constitute "most". You're just being hysterical.

The book is anti-Christian. So was the POS murderer. The latest news reveals he was planning his massacre for over a week. :(

Still, your belief in the importance of self-reliance as superior to relying on others to aid you (and the concommittant belief that others should be self-reliant rather than relying on you to save them), seems more in line with Nietzsche than it does with Christ. Jesus was more of the "give everything you own to the poor" and "if you have a party don't invite friends and family, invite the poor, because they can't repay you" type.

Nietsche on the other hand believed that pity and handouts were the worst thing you could give. You rob the poor of their dignity and self-sufficiency by having them be reliant on you. Better to encourage them to work hard to raise their own status.

Still, your belief in the importance of self-reliance as superior to relying on others to aid you (and the concommittant belief that others should be self-reliant rather than relying on you to save them), seems more in line with Nietzsche than it does with Christ. Jesus was more of the "give everything you own to the poor" and "if you have a party don't invite friends and family, invite the poor, because they can't repay you" type.

Nietsche on the other hand believed that pity and handouts were the worst thing you could give. You rob the poor of their dignity and self-sufficiency by having them be reliant on you. Better to encourage them to work hard to raise their own status.

I think you just mind-farked Sandy. No way she's going to agree with you, but you're absolutely right.

"gov school"? You mean the public schools where most of our children go? Several bad teachers doesn't constitute "most". You're just being hysterical.

I think most of the teachers are bad. That's why the schools are so bad. That and the removal of God/prayer. The teacher's union doesn't help. It enables bad teachers to stay in their cushy jobs. :(

Still, your belief in the importance of self-reliance as superior to relying on others to aid you....

God was the 'teach him to fish' guy. He was all about self-responsibility. All He wanted was man's loyalty first. Jesus was testing the guy He told to give all to the poor. The Bible does not command us to do that. This is probably a discussion for another thread. :)

AZ is considering concealed-carry:

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/19/arizona-considers-concealed-carry-at-schools/

Good. It's about time. :bravo:

For me, because I have no interest in using illicit drugs, and therefore have no contacts, alcohol is easier to obtain. Yes but even if you managed to make the contacts it is still not as easy as buying alcohol.


But for many minors, drugs such as cocaine and marijuana are easier to obtain than alcohol. Well you are comparing two illegal drugs there. Alcohol is illegal to minors.


Liquor stores face strict punishments for selling to minors; drug dealers operate outside the law, and have no reason to restrict who they sell to. Don’t forget that drug dealers also face strict punishments. I'm sure they are not strict enough though.


If you have money, you can get cocaine. If you have money you can get nearly anything though it is hardly a case for making those things legal.

The cocaine criminalization really only acts as a price support. Increased interdiction raised the price, leading to the rise in popularity of methamphetamine, which is generally considered an even more destructive drug.

Increased restrictions of firearms could make them slightly harder to obtain. But the feds can only do so much. Australian style gun confiscation wouldn't be possible in this country without changing the constitution. Yep. That does appear to be a big hurdle.


Guns could be easily made underground, and no doubt Chinese manufactured arms would be smuggled into the country. Since I am law abiding, I would be disarmed. Only the hardcore criminals and the police would be armed.Wouldn’t you at least prefer that to a society where everyone has the option of carrying a gun? ..Every person who is on the verge of a breakdown, every person who has anger or stress problems, every person who has mental health issues but has managed to fly under the radar..

If there are guns everywhere the people who aren't supposed to have them won’t have to work very hard to get one. They will be in every house and handbag.

Remember that the world isn’t always as black and white as criminals and good guys. There are situations where people lose their temper, have a breakdown or just do something really stupid and having a gun always within arms reach is not a good thing.

I think Sandy’s solution is short sighted. People who want to die are not going to be deterred if everyone has a gun. Instead, if a messed up kid wants to go out in a blaze of glory they will just have to try something more destructive to get noticed.

shaman_: "..if a messed up kid wants to go out in a blaze of glory they will just have to try something more destructive to get noticed.

That's a good point, shaman. It doesn't matter if an entire society brandishes knives or pistols, machetes or machine-guns, the incidence of running-amuk will always be in proportion to the socioeconomic, cultural, and chemical imbalances tipping some among us into lethal spirals of despair and hate. It both amazes and troubles me that so many USAmericans find it nearly impossible to comprehend that armed-to-the-teeth societies are more tense places to be. When nearly everybody's packing, it's not anything like a corny Old West TV series.

USAmericans who think having guns everywhere solves problems would come to understand what they obviously do not, by living as civilians in the midst of today's civil and ethnic war zones around the world. When I was growing up, and I visited the States from Lebanon, it was funny to meet USAmericans who liked showing off their guns. My most gun-totin' redneck buddies had no concept of the stuff I, and any kid in Lebanon, could play with. It didn't make life safer there, though.

Many untravelled USAmericans, whose concept of gun-culture is shaped by media-manufactured myths (as opposed to the realities of places where guns are everywhere) just don't get it: The ubiquity of personal weapons is inversely proportional to personal security.

In Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore pointed out that Canada has quite a few guns, but almost none of the type of violence that the U.S. has. So he concluded that it wasn't the prevalence of firearms that was the problem (though I'm sure he thinks there should be fewer of them) I've had shotguns and ammo in my closet since I was a teenager. Even though I was picked on often, it never once occurred to me to take a loaded gun to school for revenge.

Most people I know here in Nor Cal own firearms. Most people I knew in Tucson owned firearms. Hell, in AZ you can walk around with one on your hip perfectly legally (and a fair number of people do) . A bit surprising when you are from California. This did not make me fear for my safety.

And Shaman, I'm going to withhold any response because it would be straying from the topic. We haven't had a thread on drug decriminalization in a while, it's probably time we did.

Interesting mentions here, of the presently less-volatile parts of the country where gun-culture is slightly more visible- neglecting the socioeconomic flashpoints where weaponry is just as prevalent, if not more.

I agree bullying is bad. I agree there should be no tolerance for that. But government school teachers are so liberal, they allow just about anything (except Jesus/God, Christianity, morals, ethics, honor, patriotism and integrity. EVERYTHING else goes...)

I agree this is part of the problem but plenty of kids have been bullied and don't shoot up other kids. The problem is much deeper than that. It involves
-lack of God in their lives
-bad/incompetent parents
-violent tv/videos
-drugs
-bad thinking/decisions/actions...

the only teacher i have ever had in my life time let bullying go on in his classroom was a conservative

The POS mass-murderer was studying Hamas. Gee, what a surprise. Not. :(

He liked to study Arabic and the terror group Hamas. "Assalamo alikum," he [Steve Kazmierczak] would say to me, which means 'peace be with you' in Arabic," wrote Rasmieyh Abdelnabi. "He would especially enjoy practicing his Arabic on me." He took Arabic classes. Abdelnabi was the women's representative in the Muslim Student Association at NIU.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57086

Kazmierczak took several precautions that would impede investigators, including removing a memory card from his cell phone and removing the hard drive from his computer. :(

Premeditated hate crime. :mad:

Obviously he was a member of al-Qaeda, too. Goldstein!