'Honour motive' probe over attack (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4946122.stm)

OK, admit it, no one wondered where this had happened. Well maybe which Islamic country. But that's as far as one would go.

You see, this is what happens when you have a prophet that justified killing some people for some reasons? A prophet that killed people.

(did any of the other prophets personally kill people?)

My point here is that Pakistan has had 1400 years of Islam and are still honour killing their innocent Muslim children.

That means that 1400 years of Islam has not mattered a pinch.
Why?
Well I suppose in the Do not Kill Your Own Children Catagory it's not all that enlightening.

The lowest level of enlightenment is that killing innocent children is wrong.

Remember the couple of gay children executed by the government of Iran last year? Honor killings are so ubiquitous and so revered by Muslims and so many Muslims think that honour killing is OK that they have built cushy prisons to house their Heroes.

1400 years of Islamic enlightenment and KaroKari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaroKari) is as strong as it has ever been. THAT to me says something about Islam. 2000 years ago Romans practiced honor killing, do they now? No. Why? Probably because after nearly 100 years the Italians finally fought the Muslims off from Sicily in 902.


Michael


Incidentally, I wonder what the Islamic apologist is for the Murderous Muslim conquest of the innocents of Sicily in 827?

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honor killing is a complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society...What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.


Jesus I feel sorry for many poor Muslim women in the ME.

Countries where the law can be interpreted to allow men to kill female relatives in a premeditated effort as well as in flagrante delicto (in the act of committing adultery) include:

Jordan: part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty" [9]. This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament[10].
Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but not in premeditation) include:

Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants [sic], descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."
Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic code) include:

Morocco: Article 418 of the Penal Code states "Murder, injury and beating are excusable if they are committed by a husband on his wife as well as the accomplice at the moment in which he surprises them in the act of adultery."

Haiti: Article 269 of the Penal Code states that "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

Pakistan: Honor killings are supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignore it [14]. Often a man must simply claim the killing was for his honor and he'll go free. Nilofer Baktiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings [15]. On December 08, 2004, under international and domestic pressure, Pakistan enacted a law that made honor killings punishable by a prison term of seven years, or by the death penalty in the most extreme cases. Women's rights organizations are, however, wary of the new law as it stops short of outlawing the practice of allowing killers to buy their freedom by paying compensation to the victim's relatives. Women's rights groups claim that in most cases it is the victim's immediate relatives who are the killers, so inherently the new law is just eyewash.

From: Jordan: Honor Killing Not a Problem (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=8108&only)

For the second time, the Jordanian parliament has overwhelmingly rejected a law that would institute harsh penalties for honor killings, because the law would “violate religious traditions.” Every time I post a story about an honor killing, people turn up to say that the killings have nothing to do with Islam; apparently the Jordanian parliament disagrees. (Hat tip: Paul of Arabia.)

Parliament in Jordan has overwhelmingly rejected a proposed law imposing harsher punishments for men who kill female relatives in what are known as "honour killings".

It was the second time since June's elections that the lower house, the Chamber of Deputies, quashed the bill on such killings, which are mostly carried out by brothers and fathers against women who have had sex outside of marriage.

Islamists and conservatives opposed to the new law said it would encourage vice and destroy social values. ...

Honour killings of women in Jordan have caused international outrage. ...

But Jordanian MPs argue that more lenient punishments will violate religious traditions and damage the fabric of Jordan's conservative society, where men have the final say.

A sidebar to this BBC article says the UN estimates that 5,000 honor killings take place every year.



Again, my point isn't even that of the Jordanian parliament (which says honor killing is an Islamic right). I'm simply saying that in 1400 years ME Muslims have not even reached the level of realizing killing their children for honor is wrong.

That implies, to me, that Islam is a complete failure.

THIS IS A BALANCE POST :
In Israel Honour killings are sanctified by Rabbis :

Rabbinical sages exonerate father charged with killing son (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/708305.html)
A public announcement issued before the weekend by rabbinical sages of the ultra-Orthodox community exonerates a yeshiva student, 19, charged with the killing of his three-months-old baby.

How the Fuck can someone be exonerated for killing a 3 month old baby ?

The article didn't mention the rabbi's logic, but at least it isn't legally binding.

So two wrongs make a right? "Mad father kills son. Now I can kill my son too!"

In arabic cultures, women are property.

it happens all the time, deal with it, whats it to you, i dont care its no skin off my back i cant stand that part of the world anyway which is why i will never visit anyplace around. plus the fact i dont want to die by having a paki wearing a mask and jumpsuit hacking away at my head

THIS IS A BALANCE POST :
In Israel Honour killings are sanctified by Rabbis :
How the Fuck can someone be exonerated for killing a 3 month old baby ?

THIS IS A REDRESS POST:

The article said nothing about "sanctifying" the murder; it said that his community Rabbis (from a notably ultra-right-wing group) thought he didn't do it - in short, that he was innocent. Not that they thought he had done it and that they were supporting him, as one finds of ordinary family members in honour killings elsewhere, such as in islamic countries.

Note too the contrast between his lead-in:

In Israel Honour killings are sanctified by Rabbis

and the actual headline of the article:

Rabbinical sages exonerate father charged with killing son

Exonerate - as in "To relieve, in a moral sense, as of a charge, obligation, or load of blame resting on one; to clear of something that lies upon oppresses one, as an accusation or imputation" - not "sanctify" as in "to render or acknowledge to be venerable, to hallow" or "to separate from things profane and dedicate to God, to consecrate and so render safe from being corrupted". Thus they believe him not guilty; not that they think he did it and that it's permissable or "halaal" or "fard".

Foley, as elsewhere, is guilty of imposing deliberate spin on articles for the sake of slander; that is, lying.

Geoff

My point here is that Pakistan has had 1400 years of Islam and are still honour killing their innocent Muslim children.


I guess the fact that I'm Pakistani and am telling you you are completely wrong doesn't matter.

Who cares what a Pakistani has to say right, you know much more than I know about my country, even though you have never been there right?

Only an idiot would agree with the points brought by the poster in this thread.

Also, Pakistan is not an Arabic culture and women are not treated by property in Arab culture.

Only an idiot would agree with the points brought by the poster in this thread.

it happens all the time, deal with it, whats it to you, i dont care its no skin off my back i cant stand that part of the world anyway which is why i will never visit anyplace around. plus the fact i dont want to die by having a paki wearing a mask and jumpsuit hacking away at my head

... ok whatever ..

Peace.

Only an idiot would agree with the points brought by the poster in this thread.

Exactly what are your objections, DiamondHearts? Are you saying that the killings are justified? That there is perhaps more to them that we aren't comprehending? Also, are you male or female? Give us your perspective.

I guess the fact that I'm Pakistani and am telling you you are completely wrong doesn't matter.

Who cares what a Pakistani has to say right, you know much more than I know about my country, even though you have never been there right?

Only an idiot would agree with the points brought by the poster in this thread.

Also, Pakistan is not an Arabic culture and women are not treated by property in Arab culture.

Only an idiot would agree with the points brought by the poster in this thread.



... ok whatever ..

Peace.

No one believes you because you won't admit to any problems that may exist in an islamic society. I don't think you are lying on purpose I think you are just blinded by your beliefs. Yeah only idiots like the UN would believe it :rolleyes:

Exactly what are your objections, DiamondHearts? Are you saying that the killings are justified? That there is perhaps more to them that we aren't comprehending? Also, are you male or female? Give us your perspective.

Because someone kills one of their family members and happens to be Muslim, and they happen to live in Pakistan, this somehow is used to say that pakistan, islam, and muslims are evil and kill their own children, please read my previous posts on this issue. I have argued this point many times.

Tell me this, how many husbands kill their wives in America? Why blame this one religion or whole people, murder is not only in Pakistan.

Killings of murderers, rapists are only allowed, however these should be done by way of the law of the courts and the law should not be taken into anyone's hands.

Peace.

Because someone kills one of their family members and happens to be Muslim, and they happen to live in Pakistan, this somehow is used to say that pakistan, islam, and muslims are evil and kill their own children, please read my previous posts on this issue. I have argued this point many times.

...you have posted yourself that you would kill your own child if he left islam. Would you do this "just because", or "just because of islam"? What exactly are we meant to think?

Geoff

I guess the fact that I'm Pakistani and am telling you you are completely wrong doesn't matter.DiamondHearts, I posted the Laws per country.

Fact: these are Islamic ME countries (except Haiti).
Fact: Islamic countries legally allow a man to kill his woman.
Fact: Islam has been in the ME for 1400 years.

Ergo: Although Islam has been in the ME for 1400 years, the people retain their ignorant culture of honour killing. Hence Islam has not been enlightening. Why has Islam not been enlightening? Because NOT killing your child is probably the lowest rung on the ladder of enlightenment.


Michael

DiamondHearts, you do agree that honour killing children is wrong?



(I have to ask because in the past you have said killing people for their personal choice is sometimes right. And that killing your own children can sometimes be permitted. Kind of like if you child was born gay.)

Eight prominent rabbis in the Lithuanian faction of the ultra-Orhotdox community published an announcement entitled "Sacred Call," asking the public "to assist the Vales family and other rabbis who are doing their utmost to bring justice and truth to light, to prove that he is innocent and release him from gaol."
A "Sacred Call " ??? Was this man a Messiah ? Santifying ritual murder ?
The halakhic ruling threatens to renew the violent demonstrations held ten days ago in the Me'ah Shearim ultra-Orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem.
And they threaten violence to enforce this “Sacred Call " !
The ruling describes the charge sheet against Vales as "blood libel."
Here is that version of Jewish blood libel , I thiu
During his second questioning, Vales admitted he slammed the baby against a wall and had previously attacked him numerous times, because he "wouldn't let him sleep." He said he would beat his son with his fists, slap him and bite him on the neck.
What an animal he admits his guilt .

A "Sacred Call " ??? Was this man a Messiah ? Santifying ritual murder ?

And they threaten violence to enforce this “Sacred Call " !

Here is that version of Jewish blood libel , I thiu

More anti-Jewish hate from a known hater.

What next? Will birds fly? Fish swim? Stay tuned!

BTW, blood libel is an anti-Semitic slander. So maybe you do know a thing or two about it.

Geoff

BTW, blood libel is an anti-Semitic slander. So maybe you do know a thing or two about it.

Geoff
Excuse my ignorance geoff, but what do you mean? can you put this into context for me.


Yes honour killings are indeed wickedly evil. Usually done by ill-educated people in the backwaters, or by males who are fucked up, and just basically protecting their egos.

Michael and geoff please rest assured these people will get what is due to them for their wicked acts.

All over the world you get these fucked up husbands who beat there wives if they committ adultery however this should not be legal.

All these countries which michael has kindly pointed out sections of their relevant penal codes should address this and change it.

eventhough this does not change the deed or justify the act, do the penal codes say anything about proof, eg that at least 4 people (non crminals)should have been witness to the event. which would of-course make the punishment unjustifiable as no one seriously gets caught red handed committing adultery by more than 1 person.

do you get what i am trying to say

the law should not be taken into anyone's hands.

Peace.
Exactly.

To be precise, exactly.

THIS IS A BALANCE POST :
In Israel Honour killings are sanctified by Rabbis :

“
Rabbinical sages exonerate father charged with killing son
A public announcement issued before the weekend by rabbinical sages of the ultra-Orthodox community exonerates a yeshiva student, 19, charged with the killing of his three-months-old baby.
”


How the Fuck can someone be exonerated for killing a 3 month old baby ?

Why do you even start off calling this a balance post? And why do you assume that Israel and Pakistan are on two opposite ends of the spectrum, a see-saw that, if the Pakistanis acquire too much slander, then the Israelis must be punished as well to balance out the scale? The hard truth is that most of the world couldn't care less about Israel compared to Pakistan. And, because of that, you're argument of "balancing" his out with a quote about Israel does nothing at all; in fact, it's a moot point. Since the argument had nothing to do with Israel in the first place, bringing it up is completely senseless. We are talking about Pakistan and honor killing; not Pakistan VS Israel in bad deeds. Take this hypothetical example: Say my sworn enemy kills a man, and I've killed a man before as well. Does it make sense to argue that, because I've killed a man, his homicide is any less atrocious or should be analyzed differently?

AmishRakeFight

Excuse my ignorance geoff, but what do you mean? can you put this into context for me.

"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people, in which it's claimed they put the blood of Christian or Muslim children into their matzah bread. There's also a series on Syrian and Egyptian TV (and I think Jordan ran it last year) called "Knight Without A Horse" in which a rabbi is shown conspiring with a Jewish boy to murder a Christian friend of his and put his blood into the matzah. It was easily one of the most repugnant things I've ever seen, surpassing even the pile of hair Foley gets when his wife takes the Weed-Whacker to his back.

In all seriousness, it was utterly, utterly evil and the most vile anti-Semitic propaganda I've ever seen. That, of course, is the point of the Blood Libel.

Michael and geoff please rest assured these people will get what is due to them for their wicked acts.

You must be kidding. Everyone should relax because eventually God will get them. So I can - and even should - do any evil I care to on this Earth, because God will sort it out eventually? You must be kidding.

All over the world you get these fucked up husbands who beat there wives if they committ adultery however this should not be legal.

I agree, although I would go further and ban sharia outright.

All these countries which michael has kindly pointed out sections of their relevant penal codes should address this and change it.

eventhough this does not change the deed or justify the act, do the penal codes say anything about proof, eg that at least 4 people (non crminals)should have been witness to the event. which would of-course make the punishment unjustifiable as no one seriously gets caught red handed committing adultery by more than 1 person.

It would make any punishment for rape untenable, as indeed no one seriously ever gets caught by four people.

Geoff

"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people
I think it originated in Russia or somesuch (the Golem myth (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/golem.html) involved the blood libel somewhere - as well as just being a cool fantasy story) and was adopted rather later by Muslim extremists once they began to see Jews as a threat, together with things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. You could that Europe had a 'richer' history of anti-semitism than the Middle East, so the Middle Easterners 'imported' some of it ;)

Sounds about right.

Geoff

"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people,
BULLSHIT ALERT :
Blood Libel is of European/Christian origin not Islamic :
I have provided two Jewish sources the first is the Jewish virtual library and the Jewish Encylopedia , Each source clearly states that it was Christian Europe that instituted this libel and neither article incriminates Islam in this slander .
Blood Libel (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/gloss.html)
An allegation, recurring during the thirteenth through sixteenth centuries, that Jews were killing Christian children to use their blood for the ritual of making unleavened bread (matzah). A red mold which occasionally appeared on the bread started this myth.

Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1173&letter=B)
BLOOD ACCUSATION:
A term now usually understood to denote the accusation that the Jews—if not all of them, at all events certain Jewish sects—require and employ Christian blood for purposes which stand in close relation to the ritual, and that, in order to obtain such blood, they commit assault and even murder.
In this entire encylopedia article , which is from a Jewish point of view and authorship , concerning the history of the blood libel against the Jewish people no mention has been made of any Islamic involvement in this blood libel . In fact there is not one indictment of any Islamic use of the blood libel against Jews in this indepth article .

As you say it originated in Europe. Unfortunately it has been used in the Middle East too (link (http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sd&ID=SP15000), link (http://www.nysun.com/article/30846))

Jordan cancelled the TV series:
the Jordanian Embassy in Washington, D.C., sent a press release to notify MEMRI that the series had been pulled.

BULLSHIT ALERT :

Brian up to his old tricks.

[Blood Libel is of European/Christian origin not Islamic :
I have provided two Jewish sources the first is the Jewish virtual library and the Jewish Encylopedia , Each source clearly states that it was Christian Europe that instituted this libel and neither article incriminates Islam in this slander .

And today it is on cable and satellite TV in islamic countries. Almost no one in the West had heard of it until we heard of it through MEMRI.

It might well be of European origin, but it's something we've dropped as being unbelievably stupid. And when I say "we", naturally I don't mean to include Foley.

Geoff

HARE BRAIN POSTING ALERT :
It might well be of European origin, but it's something we've dropped as being unbelievably stupid.
Then why claim it was Islamic in the first place as you said below ?
"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people
Were you telling LIES again or Contradicting yourself again ? :)
Almost no one in the West had heard of it until we heard of it through MEMRI.
Now pay attention here about MEMRI :

From the file on MEMRI at the Center for Media & Democracy (http://www.prwatch.org/) .
Middle East Media Research Institute (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institu te)
MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations. MEMRI was co-founded by Meyrav Wurmser and Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli military intelligence, "both of whom were early critics of the Oslo accords."
Now here are some examples of MEMRIS’s bullshit service .
Making a MEMRI (http://www.utne.com/web_special/web_specials_archives/articles/2534-1.html)
"The picture of Arab media presented by MEMRI is a slanted, ridiculous cartoon,"
Gained in translation (http://mondediplo.com/2005/10/15propaganda)
Why the Middle East Media Research Institute is a source of English versions of Arabic texts that are designed to mislead and disinform.
A Note on MEMRI & Translations (http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html)
However, I do stand by my assertion that MEMRI engages in the practice of publishing selective and decontextualized excerpts of the Arabic press in ways that can present opponents of occupation as religious extremists or anti-Semites. I believe that this is a misleading practice and can serve to misrepresent individual journalists and the character of the Arabic press as a whole.
And that is from MEMRI's mission statement
the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel
How Fucking biased can you get ?

This MEMRI is an Israeli propaganda front with the sole purpose of deliberately misquoting the Arab media and serving it up to the West to portray the Arabs as insane anti-Semites .

From your link (emphasis mine)

A Note on MEMRI & Translations (http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html):

After further investigation of this issue, I have discovered that the technical accuracy of MEMRI's translations has not been disputed. Thus I specifically retract my allegation that the organization's translations
are questionable, and I apologize for my error.

However, I do stand by my assertion that MEMRI engages in the practice of publishing selective and decontextualized excerpts of the Arabic press in ways that can present opponents of occupation as religious extremists or anti-Semites.

Looks like you ... er ... decontextualised it ;) So their translations are 'accurate'.

If that's insufficient, though, try wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews#In_Arab_and_Muslim_nation s).

(maybe we should create a new thread for this discussion?)

"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people, in which it's claimed they put the blood of Christian or Muslim children into their matzah bread. There's also a series on Syrian and Egyptian TV (and I think Jordan ran it last year) called "Knight Without A Horse" in which a rabbi is shown conspiring with a Jewish boy to murder a Christian friend of his and put his blood into the matzah. It was easily one of the most repugnant things I've ever seen, surpassing even the pile of hair Foley gets when his wife takes the Weed-Whacker to his back.

In all seriousness, it was utterly, utterly evil and the most vile anti-Semitic propaganda I've ever seen. That, of course, is the point of the Blood Libel.
Geoff
thank you for clearing that up


You must be kidding. Everyone should relax because eventually God will get them. So I can - and even should - do any evil I care to on this Earth, because God will sort it out eventually? You must be kidding.

geoff thats not exactly what i am saying


I agree, although I would go further and ban sharia outright.
Geoff

Sharia is never been practiced properly anywhere in the world today, so how can we ban it when no one has expereinceof it, apart from the fuckwits like the taleban who give it a guess and get it all wrong cos they are onyl interested in their own agendas, eg power, control, money etc,,,

All these countries which michael has kindly pointed out sections of their relevant penal codes should address this and change it.
Geoff
Agreed


It would make any punishment for rape untenable, as indeed no one seriously ever gets caught by four people.

Geoff
I was not actually refering to that geoff, i was refering to being caught at adultery.

Looks like you ... er ... decontextualised it ;) So their translations are 'accurate'.
Who is talking about translations ? I gave several links of differing opinions of MEMRI's misrepresentations of the Arab media , such as below .
Making a MEMRI (http://www.utne.com/web_special/web_specials_archives/articles/2534-1.html)
"The picture of Arab media presented by MEMRI is a slanted, ridiculous cartoon,"
Gained in translation (http://mondediplo.com/2005/10/15propaganda)
Why the Middle East Media Research Institute is a source of English versions of Arabic texts that are designed to mislead and disinform.
Or from MEMRIS own site that it is a Israeli foundation for propagating Zionism , its their on there front page .
Middle East Media Research Institute (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institu te)
MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations. MEMRI was co-founded by Meyrav Wurmser and Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli military intelligence, "both of whom were early critics of the Oslo accords."
Any comments as to why I and others should take this MEMRI for their word ?
If that's insufficient, though, try wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews#In_Arab_and_Muslim_nation s).

Ok you got me stumped ! I cant find any indictments on Islamcism and the blood libel anywhere in this source . But I will go through them 1 by 1 for you .

The 1st " The Matzah Of Zion " is a book written in Syria about the murder of a Christian Priest and " The elders of Zion " a Christian invention , nothing Islamic here .

The 2nd an Egyptian film partly based on the above book .

The 3rd well your wikipedia link gives no soursces to verify its authenticity Zephyr , so I ask you to please provide a link for this allegation .
Multiple branches of the Syrian government, including the Damascus Police Command and the Department of Antiquities and Museums, the security ministry, the culture ministry, created an anti-Semitic television TV series called Ash-Shatat ("The Diaspora".) This series originally aired in Syria and in Lebanon late 2003, and was broadcast by Al-Manar, a satellite television network owned by Hezbollah. This TV series is based on the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, shows the Jewish people as engaging in a conspiracy to rule the world, and presents Jews as people who murder Christian children, drain their blood, and use this blood to bake matzah. This TV series was also recently (October 2005) shown in the Arab Muslim nation of Jordan, on the satellite network Al-Mamnou. After complaints to the Jordanian government from Jewish organizations in the United States, the Jordanian government had the television stop televising the program.
Me I think its Bullshit or they would of left a link .

4th is an Iranian TV interview in which the interveiwee refers to 2 instances of supposed Jewish blood libel of Christians in Europe , no indictments of Islamism here .

(maybe we should create a new thread for this discussion?)
Whose we ? Why dont YOU do a thread on the accuracy of MEMRI and I will debate you there , agreed , me and you .

Then why claim it was Islamic in the first place as you said below ?

...because it was broadcast with the explicit permission of the governments of islamic countries?

Were you telling LIES again or Contradicting yourself again ?

Neither. BTW, Zephyr got your number on that last post. No need for Geoffy to put the boot in. Thanks for playing.

This MEMRI is an Israeli propaganda front with the sole purpose of deliberately misquoting the Arab media and serving it up to the West to portray the Arabs as insane anti-Semites .

Ah - if that's their purpose, then why is it that all their material is simply reporting of that broadcast in islamic nations? How can they possibly present a bias viewpoint of government-approved broadcasts in islamic nations, let alone newspapers?

Unless the Israelis themselves make the broadcasts? *gasp!*

/sarc
Oooooh, they're clever!
/sarc off

Well they don't, so you're lost. You're like one of those people who poo-pooed negative reporting of Nazi Germany, going on about how Hitler was "really a very nice gentleman" and "liked dogs".

Finally, I simply must object to those links. "Making a MEMRI" doesn't work, and it's very clear that you just made that link up. That's very dishonest, Brian. I'm appalled. No, no: don't deny it. That would only insult us both. We both know that if you click a link, and if for any reason it doesn't work, that it must be falsified, no?

As for the rest: one of the others is a paid Le Monde site, which I doubt you ever read - as-tu d'access, Brian? Il faut que tu me donne l'article. As-tu paye, la? :D

As for the one by Leah Harris:

"After further investigation of this issue, I have discovered that the technical accuracy of MEMRI's translations has not been disputed. Thus I specifically retract my allegation that the organization's translations are questionable, and I apologize for my error."

Her only other point refers to the 2002 Guardian article by Brian Whitaker, which was comprehensively refuted by MEMRI themselves. So that link is toast too.

How Fucking biased can you get ?

I have no idea how biased you can get, but frankly your impression of their "Zionism" is just that: an impression. As we've seen, there are Zionists and there are Zionists - they occupy a pretty wide range of specific belief.

Geoff

Who is talking about translations ? I gave several links of differing opinions of MEMRI's misrepresentations of the Arab media , such as below .

But none of them were valid, or supported your view. They either didn't work, or you don't have access, or they retracted their point.

Or from MEMRIS own site that it is a Israeli foundation for propagating Zionism , its their on there front page .

Define what they mean by Zionism.

Ok you got me stumped ! I cant find any indictments on Islamcism and the blood libel anywhere in this source . But I will go through them 1 by 1 for you .

The 2nd an Egyptian film partly based on the above book .

Done.

Me I think its Bullshit

What, like your sources?

Whose we ? Why dont YOU do a thread on the accuracy of MEMRI and I will debate you there , agreed , me and you .

I'll be there too.

Geoff

no indictments of Islamism here .
I didn't say it had anything to do with Islamism. Just that it's being propogated occasionally in the Middle East.

The 3rd well your wikipedia link gives no soursces to verify its authenticity Zephyr , so I ask you to please provide a link for this allegation .
Google search for Ash-Shatat (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ash-Shatat&btnG=Google+Search&meta=)
Page of US embassy in Morocco (http://www.usembassy.ma/reports/antisemitismfr.htm) (in French)
Google translation of above page (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.usembassy.ma/reports/antisemitismfr.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAsh-Shatat%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)

and a quote from the last link:

"Lebanon

The religious tolerance forms integral part of the political system of the country, but the conflict israélo-Arabic and the occupation of the south of the country by Israel fed a strong antipathy towards the Israelis, feeling which was often reflected in the Lebanese press. Hezbollah, by the means of its bodies of press, regularly aimed Israel and its Jewish population in its vigorous rhetoric anti-Israel, and characterized the events being held in the area like belonging to a "plot Zionist".

The televised series Ash-Shatat ("the diaspora"), articulated on the so-called plot of the book entitled "Protocol of wise of Sion" in order to dominating the world, was diffused in October and November 2003 by the network of satellite television Lebanese Al-Manar, which belongs to the terrorist organization Hezbollah."

Sharia is never been practiced properly anywhere in the world today, Two questions
1) What does that suggest?
2) Has it ever been practiced properly? If so, when? Where at?

...because it was broadcast with the explicit permission of the governments of islamic countries?
SCIFORUM READERS TAKE NOTE : Geoff clearly said here :
"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people
He said nothing about broadcasting , he made a firm allegation that blood libel was an Islamic slander .
Neither. BTW, Zephyr got your number on that last post. No need for Geoffy to put the boot in. Thanks for playing.
SCIFORUM READERS TAKE NOTE : Geoff is now attempting to climb out of having to prove his assertion that blood libel is of an Islamic origin . Because I have provided proof from 2 Jewish sources which claerly state that blood liobel is indeed of Christian origin , he is now stuck .
Finally, I simply must object to those links. "Making a MEMRI" doesn't work,
SCIFORUM READERS TAKE NOTE : This link works fine it led me and others to this site , in fact I will reproduce this in full .
Making a MEMRI (http://www.utne.com/web_special/web_specials_archives/articles/2534-1.html)
Heard the one about the Palestinian doctor's celebration of anthrax or the Saudi Arabian debate about ridding the world of Christians and Jews? It's all part of the Middle East Media Research Institute's (MEMRI) determined campaign to stir up animosity toward the Muslim world. And according to Tim Cavanaugh in the Online Journalism Review, there are few news services more valuable to Americans at the moment.

"They look for the absolute worst, most inflammatory rhetoric they can find in the Arabic press," says Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. "It's kind of like if we translated Franklin Graham's remarks [condemning Islam as a "wicked" religion], and then went to the Arabic press and said 'See, this is what they're saying in America.'"

But Cavanaugh notes that MEMRI is one of the few news organizations willing and able to deliver a steady stream of articles translated from the Arabic press, and argues that its campaign does, unfortunately, represent the views of a certain segment of the Arab world. "Anybody who has spent any time in the Middle East, or even stayed alert to Arab politics, knows that MEMRI doesn't need to travel very far to cherry-pick offensive comments," he writes.

And MEMRI's ability to bring those views to a wider audience helps Americans develop a broader perspective on Middle Eastern opinion. "The picture of Arab media presented by MEMRI is a slanted, ridiculous cartoon," he writes. "But it is not an entirely inaccurate picture. It's also a vital service at a time when Americans are starved for other viewpoints. And at the moment, it's one of the only shows in town."
--Craig Cox
That's very dishonest, Brian. I'm appalled. No, no: don't deny it. That would only insult us both. We both know that if you click a link, and if for any reason it doesn't work, that it must be falsified, no?
SCIFORUM READERS TAKE NOTE : I have just caught Geoff out on another LIE .
I'll be there too.
Why you have absolutely nothing to offer other than LIE's and contradictions .

I didn't say it had anything to do with Islamism. Just that it's being propogated occasionally in the Middle East.
Occasionally ! For petes sake come on all you have given is supposition of blood libel .
Google search for Ash-Shatat (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ash-Shatat&btnG=Google+Search&meta=)
Page of US embassy in Morocco (http://www.usembassy.ma/reports/antisemitismfr.htm) (in French)
Google translation of above page (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.usembassy.ma/reports/antisemitismfr.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAsh-Shatat%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)
Yeah look the ADL , I mean come on mate , I wont discount the fact that a television series of an anti-Zionist nature was made in Syria and the fact that it was very heavily biased against Israel is the rael deal . But when anybody myself included makes any statement that is anti Israel people here refer to you as a Jew Hater and anti-Semite I tend to be a little more discerning when this term is flung around . I admit to the fact that anti-Jewish literature is readily available in the mideast as it is in the West , but this blood libel is an absolutely ridiculous charge .

And the fact that the ADL has just recently had 2 of its members (http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=14715) imprisoned for a a 2001 plot to bomb the San Clemente office of Rep. Darrell Issa, Lebanese-American Republican congressman, and the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City. And that racist extremist Meir Kahane founded this ADL , well hey , that makes this organisation a little more than suspect in reliable unbiased opinion .

Yeah look the ADL
What does the ADL have to do with a USA embassy website?

The point here isn't that the material is available, but that it was publicly televised; and it's not just anti-Zionist - the Protocols are a well known antisemitic work which AFAIK includes the blood libel, which as you say is ridiculous.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_blib4.htm

"It had wide circulation among some rabidly anti-semitic groups including the Nazi regime in Germany. The Protocols, blood libel, host desecration, ritual murder, and other discredited stories are still occasionally mentioned by the media in some Muslim countries and by some neo-Nazi groups worldwide."


But when anybody myself included makes any statement that is anti Israel people here refer to you as a Jew Hater and anti-Semite I tend to be a little more discerning when this term is flung around .
Fair enough. On the other hand on your average forum, it seems a large percentage of the people wanting to challenge Israel are ********** members - which is sad in itself, because they have no sympathy for Palestinians either, they just want to blame the Jews for 'something', and Israel is the bandwagon they jump on. Just like Iran will probably be the new bandwagon Islamophobes jump on...

Whose we ? Why dont YOU do a thread on the accuracy of MEMRI and I will debate you there , agreed , me and you .
Not just MEMRI - I was referring to the fact that we have rather unfairly hijacked Michael's thread on honour killings to talk about mad murderous fathers and for some reason the blood libel... :eek:

Geoff is now attempting to climb out of having to prove his assertion that blood libel is of an Islamic origin . Because I have provided proof from 2 Jewish sources which claerly state that blood liobel is indeed of Christian origin , he is now stuck .

Oh? Did I say it was of islamic invention? I merely said it was an "old" one: probably a good ten years or more. But you're constructing such a nice straw man, though: don't let the facts get in the way.

This link works fine it led me and others to this site , in fact I will reproduce this in full .

No, I'm sorry, the link fails; thus I can only conclude that it is falsified and that you have lied yet again. And honestly, you could make up whatever you liked and say it was on the "site"; without being able to see it, how would we knoew? :D And it's not even a good falsified article - look: even this Cavanaugh person you invented doesn't support your side. :D

"But Cavanaugh notes that MEMRI is one of the few news organizations willing and able to deliver a steady stream of articles translated from the Arabic press, and argues that its campaign does, unfortunately, represent the views of a certain segment of the Arab world."

And where are its links? Where are its source articles? As I said, not a good falsification at all. :D

I have just caught Geoff out on another LIE .

I take offense at your lie, and I feel I must report it. You've implied elsewhere that any link that gets clicked and doesn't work is a deliberate false construct. I am merely applying your own rules to your own links. I did not invent your rules; but am I adept at using them.

Why you have absolutely nothing to offer other than LIE's and contradictions .

Then you shouldn't be so scared that I'll come over.

Geoff

What does the ADL have to do with a USA embassy website?
Your first link is a google search which leads directly to the ADL site as information on this supposed TV programme . The US embassy link you provided is the translation link for the second link you provided .
The point here isn't that the material is available, but that it was publicly televised; and it's not just anti-Zionist - the Protocols are a well known antisemitic work which AFAIK includes the blood libel, which as you say is ridiculous.
So far the only evidence about the content of this show has been questionable sources such as the ADL and an unsourced wikipedia article . The protocols of the learned elders of Zion is a work of some pages , the work concerns a deviously designed parasitic Jewish domination of unwary Christians by the moral subversion of Christian society . Moslems dont even rate a mention in that book , here read for yourself .
CHRISTIAN YOUTH DESTROYED (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion3.htm#PROTOCOL%20No.%206)

10. WE HAVE FOOLED, BEMUSED AND CORRUPTED THE YOUTH OF THE "GOYIM" BY REARING THEM IN PRINCIPLES AND THEORIES WHICH ARE KNOWN TO US TO BE FALSE ALTHOUGH IT IS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN INCULCATED.

11. Above the existing laws without substantially altering them, and by merely twisting them into contradictions of interpretations, we have erected something grandiose in the way of results. These results found expression in the fact that the INTERPRETATIONS MASKED THE LAW: afterwards they entirely hid them from the eyes of the governments owing to the impossibility of making anything out of the tangled web of legislation.

12. This is the origin of the theory of course of arbitration.

13. You may say that the GOYIM will rise upon us, arms in hand, if they guess what is going on before the time comes; but in the West we have against this a manoeuvre of such appalling terror that the very stoutest hearts quail - the undergrounds, metropolitans, those subterranean corridors which, before the time comes, will be driven under all the capitals and from whence those capitals will be blown into the air with all their organizations and archives.
"It had wide circulation among some rabidly anti-semitic groups including the Nazi regime in Germany. The Protocols, blood libel, host desecration, ritual murder, and other discredited stories are still occasionally mentioned by the media in some Muslim countries and by some neo-Nazi groups worldwide."
Seriously if you read that work you will see that it covers every imaginable facet of modern society , just look at the index :
Preface
Introduction
Who are the Elders?
Protocol I The Basic Doctrine
Protocol II Economic Wars
Protocol III Methods of Conquest
Protocol IV Materialism Replaces Religion
Protocol V Despotism and Modern Progress
Protocol VI Take-Over Technique
Protocol VII World-Wide Wars
Protocol VIII Provisional Government
Protocol IX Re-education
Protocol X Preparing for Power
Protocol XI The Totalitarian State
Protocol XII Control of the Press
Protocol XIII Distractions
Protocol XIV Assault on Religion
Protocol XV Ruthless Suppression
Protocol XVI Brainwashing
Protocol XVII Abuse of Authority
Protocol XVIII Arrest of Opponents
Protocol XIX Rulers and People
Protocol XX Financial Programme
Protocol XXI Loans and Credit
Protocol XXII Power of Gold
Protocol XXIII Instilling Obedience
Protocol XXIV Qualities of the Ruler
If I said Jews have a major controlling authority of the US cinema industry , which the Jews do its a common knowledge , you could accuse me of being influenced by the book itself , using thes same pretext that you have accused the Syrian craetors of the TV show .
Fair enough. On the other hand on your average forum, it seems a large percentage of the people wanting to challenge Israel are ********** members - which is sad in itself, because they have no sympathy for Palestinians either, they just want to blame the Jews for 'something', and Israel is the bandwagon they jump on. Just like Iran will probably be the new bandwagon Islamophobes jump on...
Agreed , and I keep telling Jews and moslems that it has always been the Christian gentile from the North that has since the time of Alexander the Great that has exploited the region .Jews dont rule the world and moslems arent the threat to the world as the Western media makes out , the sooner the people of those regions understatnd they are being played one against the other the better . Trust me in this Iraq has gone down and Iran is going to be the next to go down , this is big business sorting out recalitrant nations and after Iran goes down Israel is up next .

Occasionally ! For petes sake come on all you have given is supposition of blood libel .

Supposition of blood libel? Are you dense or merely twisted? It had a rabbi killing a kid and using his blood in matzah bread. Where in the HELL did they mention Israel during?? Answer: they didn't.

Either you knew that and you're lying - again - or you're ignorant. So before you shoot off your mouth, why don't you actually get out and learn something, ********** boy. Your entire thesis is "kill the Jews", so don't presume to lecture.

Geoff

Seriously if you read that work you will see that it covers every imaginable facet of modern society , just look at the index :

If I said Jews have a major controlling authority of the US cinema industry , which the Jews do its a common knowledge , you could accuse me of being influenced by the book itself , using thes same pretext that you have accused the Syrian craetors of the TV show .

Don't look now, here comes the "The Protocols are evil and wrong and bigoted but don't they make a lot of sense, really?" argument.

Oooooh, didn't see that one coming.

Night all.

Geoff

Oh? Did I say it was of islamic invention? I merely said it was an "old" one: probably a good ten years or more. But you're constructing such a nice straw man, though: don't let the facts get in the way.
TAKE NOTE SCIFORUM READERS : This is the start of the merry-go-round , this is semantics , as you have seen Geoff clearly said is was islamic , and when I king hit him with the evidence that it was in fact Christian he is attempting to squirm out of it .
No, I'm sorry, the link fails;
TAKE NOTE SCIFORUM READERS : This is a consistent pattern in Geoffs debate strategy , acting deliberatly ignorant , this way he saves face from having to admit he is wrong .
I take offense at your lie, and I feel I must report it. You've implied elsewhere that any link that gets clicked and doesn't work is a deliberate false construct. I am merely applying your own rules to your own links. I did not invent your rules; but am I adept at using them.
TAKE NOTE SCIFORUM READERS : Geoffs psychiatric disorder clearly shines through here , he clearly insists that a valid link which works is still bogus yet he comments on the content of the story i pasted .
Then you shouldn't be so scared that I'll come over.
Based on the above idiotfest Geoff , I advise you not too , as your pattern of consistent Lying and contradiction of yourself is making you the laughing stock of sciforums .

“
Originally Posted by GeoffP
It might well be of European origin, but it's something we've dropped as being unbelievably stupid.
”

Then why claim it was Islamic in the first place as you said below ?
“
Originally Posted by GeoffP
"The Blood Libel", for those who've never heard of it, is the old islamic slander against Jewish people
”

Caught again are we, Geoff?

Not just MEMRI - I was referring to the fact that we have rather unfairly hijacked Michael's thread on honour killings to talk about mad murderous fathers and for some reason the blood libel... :eek:

And Michael's thread was designed to denegrate Pakistanis and Muslims as people who kill their own children.

Not quite a racist free and false stereotype free topic is it?

Among other things, Michael believes pakistanis have no culture, are artificial as a country, and Pakistan should not exist and Indian culture is the real culture of Pakistanis and they should abandon their religion to go back to hinduism.

Yet he has never been to Pakistan? How will he know the culture of Pakistan, or as he claims the lack of it?

Peace

TAKE NOTE SCIFORUM READERS :
I would love to, really I would, but I have one of those ... you know ... things you live? Yeah, a life, that's it ;)

And Michael's thread was designed to denegrate Pakistanis and Muslims as people who kill their own children.

Not quite a racist free and false stereotype free topic is it?

Among other things, Michael believes pakistanis have no culture, are artificial as a country, and Pakistan should not exist and Indian culture is the real culture of Pakistanis and they should abandon their religion to go back to hinduism.

Yet he has never been to Pakistan? How will he know the culture of Pakistan, or as he claims the lack of it?

Peace
Yeah, honour killing is obviously a bad thing, but it shouldn't have been introduced in such a biased way. This whole thread is pretty much a waste. I'm off.

And Michael's thread was designed to denegrate Pakistanis and Muslims as people who kill their own children.No my post is to point out that Islam in 1400 years has not been inspirational enough to stop this practice of honor killing among Muslims.

Yes, some Muslims kill their children purely for the sake of their honor. So much so that many Islamic countries have even made laws to protect the murderers. The only other country that has such laws is Haiti.

Those are facts DH.

How would you like me to initiate a post on another bloody honor killing in pakistan? Its not candy and popcorn here.

Not quite a racist free and false stereotype free topic is it?1) there is no such thing as "race".
2) Stereotypes?!?!? I listed the actual LAWS.

Among other things, Michael believes pakistanis have no culture, I think that they have lost a lot of their endemic culture yes. But perhaps changed is a better word. Just as the aboriginals in Australia were changed by the English so where the Hindu of Pakistan changed by the Arabs.

artificial as a country and Pakistan should not exist see above

Indian culture is the real culture of Pakistanis Actually I'll don't liike the word "real" here, but I'd say yes, before Islam conquored the area Hindu/Budhhisim was the indigenous culture.

they should abandon their religion to go back to hinduism. They can do as they would please. BUT they should have the option to do so without being killed as apostate.

Diamond, Foley: sad. Very sad. Tu tuoque and hypocrisy all the way through. Foley doesn't like having his own weapons of choice used against him; Diamond screams for tolerance and acceptance while accepting nothing, tolerating nothing.

Geoffs psychiatric disorder clearly shines through here , he clearly insists that a valid link which works is still bogus yet he comments on the content of the story i pasted .

LOL - you mean the story you claim was at the end of that link? :D Sorry, Foley: if a link doesn't work then it clearly must be a big fake. :D Wassa matta, don't like you own methods being thrown back at you?

Sad.

Geoff

Caught again are we, Geoff?
ROFL , its so easy .
I would love to, really I would, but I have one of those ... you know ... things you live? Yeah, a life, that's it ;)
A life ? and yet you spend your time on sciforums cheerleading Geoff and helping him reinforcehis losing arguments :bugeye:

Well, I see Brian has degenerated from debate and thinking to insults and misreporting.

Only took three pages this time. A record!

Geoff

indeed, geoff.
he has never answered a comment i have given him, without insults.
i think he finds it completely impossible.
a quota maybe?

Well, I see Brian has degenerated from debate and thinking to insults and misreporting.

Only took three pages this time. A record!

Geoff
No you degenerated this debate into a slinging match , Diamond saw it clearly that you had nbeen caught out . I debated you into the ground .
indeed, geoff.
he has never answered a comment i have given him, without insults.
i think he finds it completely impossible.
a quota maybe?
Ah the loser himself , I see you dropped your " ban brian foley " tag , looks like I win all around , personally if I was you after your failed banning campaign in which you made an absolute fool of yourself I would left sciforums .

please ban brian foley.

feel better now...more important?

didnt mean to disappoint you, adolf foley.

and no, we cannot be friends.

I debated you into the ground .

im not quite sure this has ever happened.

must have happened in bizarro world or something.
did you grow a goatee, geoffp? :D

:m:

This thread is spent - Closed.