I live in Ontario, it's a province in Canada. That's like a state for you Yanks.

Anyhow, one day last year a devout Sikh was pulled over by the police because he wasn't wearing a helmet while riding his motorcycle. In Ontario it is law and he's given a ticket. The Sikh who was wearing a turban at the time of the incident challenges it in court. His defense is that his religion requires him to wear the turban. Anyway they get a lot of media coverage and the judge writes a 36 page ruling that finds the guy guilty as charged.

I really couldn't care less about the Sikh religion or any other religion for that matter but what I'm wondering is why a religion puts their requirements above the law? above the safety of the individual?

One more thing.... Is it fair to have the judge acquit the guy on religious grounds and place the Sikh biker in danger(no more protective helmet). If you were judge would you want that on your conscience? Would you blame yourself if the Sikh was killed in an accident because you let him go helmetless?

And now for the big question..... Will this kind of crap ever stop?

Regardless of the guy's religion, the law is the law, and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent for putting himself, and ultimately others, in danger.
I mean, he could have bought a special helmet to fit over his turban-covered head. Or worn the helmet in place of the turban. He was being a damn fool by not wearing a helmet at all, and should not be acquitted on such petty grounds.

I live in Ontario, it's a province in Canada. That's like a state for you Yanks.

Anyhow, one day last year a devout Sikh was pulled over by the police because he wasn't wearing a helmet while riding his motorcycle. In Ontario it is law and he's given a ticket. The Sikh who was wearing a turban at the time of the incident challenges it in court. His defense is that his religion requires him to wear the turban. Anyway they get a lot of media coverage and the judge writes a 36 page ruling that finds the guy guilty as charged.

I really couldn't care less about the Sikh religion or any other religion for that matter but what I'm wondering is why a religion puts their requirements above the law? above the safety of the individual?

The Will of God is more important than the will of the state. The state can give its penalties and throw one into prison for a lifetime. God can give His penalty and throw one into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Plus the wisdom of God is greater than the wisdom of the worldly authority so following His will is better.



One more thing.... Is it fair to have the judge acquit the guy on religious grounds and place the Sikh biker in danger(no more protective helmet).

The judge has to do whatever worldly legal system tells him to do. I don't expect fairness from a worldly judge; it is naive to have such expectations.



If you were judge would you want that on your conscience? Would you blame yourself if the Sikh was killed in an accident because you let him go helmetless?

If i was the judge i would allow the sikh to ride around as his conscience dictated to him to ride around. If the man gets involved in an accident and gets his head smashed then that was his free will decision to ride without a helmet. Therefore there would be no problem with my conscience. I don't believe in a fascist nanny state.


And now for the big question..... Will this kind of crap ever stop?

Yes. When Jesus returns and puts an end to all human worldly authorities.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I live in Ontario, it's a province in Canada. That's like a state for you Yanks.

Anyhow, one day last year a devout Sikh was pulled over by the police because he wasn't wearing a helmet while riding his motorcycle. In Ontario it is law and he's given a ticket. The Sikh who was wearing a turban at the time of the incident challenges it in court. His defense is that his religion requires him to wear the turban. Anyway they get a lot of media coverage and the judge writes a 36 page ruling that finds the guy guilty as charged.

I really couldn't care less about the Sikh religion or any other religion for that matter but what I'm wondering is why a religion puts their requirements above the law? above the safety of the individual?

One more thing.... Is it fair to have the judge acquit the guy on religious grounds and place the Sikh biker in danger(no more protective helmet). If you were judge would you want that on your conscience? Would you blame yourself if the Sikh was killed in an accident because you let him go helmetless?

And now for the big question..... Will this kind of crap ever stop?

Here in the UK Sikhs , unlike others, are not required to wear a helmet. But I agee with your judge's ruling.

If it illegal for a motorcyclist not to wear a helmet, there would be no problem if Sikhs chose not to ride a motorcyle. But as things stand, they are seeking a privelige not accorded to the rest of us.

Hapsburg He was being a damn fool by not wearing a helmet at all, ]If helmets are good for motocycle drivers, they are good for car drivers.
Another example of discrimination.
Car drivers want privliges not accorded to cycle drivers.

I really couldn't care less about the Sikh religion or any other religion for that matter but what I'm wondering is why a religion puts their requirements above the law? above the safety of the individual?

From the individual's perspective, the individual's philosophy/religion is always above the Law of the State.

From the perspective of the State, the individual's philosophy/religion is sometimes below the Law of the State, and sometimes the issue is moot.

As for the safety of the individual: There can be even vast discrepancies between what the Law of the State deems "safety", and what an individual deems "safety".

I don't know about the Sikh specifically, but a possible explanation is that not wearing a turban could be, from the Sikh perspective, more dangerous than not wearing a helmet. Perhaps they think that not wearing the turban could be a sign of rebellion against God, and that God will doom them if they rebel in any way (e.g. by not wearing a turban). And they certainly do not wish to risk being doomed, they rather die without a helmet but with proper sign of worship.


One more thing.... Is it fair to have the judge acquit the guy on religious grounds and place the Sikh biker in danger(no more protective helmet). If you were judge would you want that on your conscience? Would you blame yourself if the Sikh was killed in an accident because you let him go helmetless?

Despite a common opinion otherwise, the Law has nothing to do with morality. The Law has to do with ensuring that the pragmatic aspects of living in a society are handled in a manner that makes for a relatively functional society.

Of course, the more multi-cultural and multi-religious a society is, the more difficult it is to handle the pragmatic aspects of living in a society in a manner that makes for a relatively functional society.
Because the more multi-cultural and multi-religious a society is, the more forces there will be that want to be heard and that pull the society apart.

The Will of God is more important than the will of the state. The state can give its penalties and throw one into prison for a lifetime. God can give His penalty and throw one into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Anarchy lives! Seems it really doesn't matter what a judge thinks because God is going to straighten us out anyway.

Plus the wisdom of God is greater than the wisdom of the worldly authority so following His will is better.

He's so wise. He lets judges make decisions even though it means nothing. Are we not mandated by Him to make sensible decisions...what for?

The judge has to do whatever worldly legal system tells him to do. I don't expect fairness from a worldly judge; it is naive to have such expectations.

Then you shouldn't get upset when someone calls you a moron for believing in such foolishness.

If i was the judge i would allow the sikh to ride around as his conscience dictated to him to ride around. If the man gets involved in an accident and gets his head smashed then that was his free will decision to ride without a helmet. Therefore there would be no problem with my conscience. I don't believe in a fascist nanny state.

The judge is a non-entity? What if he believes in God and free will like you? One of you would be wrong then, no?

Yes. When Jesus returns and puts an end to all human worldly authorities.

In the meantime the rest of us heathens will do our best to keep you from being killed unnecessarily.

I think everyone should wear full body armour when they leave the house.

Anarchy lives! Seems it really doesn't matter what a judge thinks because God is going to straighten us out anyway.



He's so wise. He lets judges make decisions even though it means nothing. Are we not mandated by Him to make sensible decisions...what for?



Then you shouldn't get upset when someone calls you a moron for believing in such foolishness.



The judge is a non-entity? What if he believes in God and free will like you? One of you would be wrong then, no?



In the meantime the rest of us heathens will do our best to keep you from being killed unnecessarily.

You are absolutely right. We live in democracies, not theocracies. Laws can be challenged in the courts and posibly overturned. We can take to the streets and protest peacefully.But once a law is in place, it must be obeyed by all.

Sikhs are not being discriminated against for their beliefs. It sems to me they have two choices. In the first place, they can demonstrate the strength of their faith by refusing to ride motorcycles. In the second, they can choose to live in a society in whch the wearing of helmets is not compulsory.

I think everyone should wear full body armour when they leave the house.

Can I take it you have a particular country in mind ? Why not do as we do and lobby your government. If you get sufficient support, such a law could be implemented.

Can I take it you have a particular country in mind ? Why not do as we do and lobby your government. If you get sufficient support, such a law could be implemented.

The one with most accidents of course, where just being a pedestrian could affect your chances of making it through the day.

The one with most accidents of course, where just being a pedestrian could affect your chances of making it through the day.

Well. don't just sit there; do something about it !

He put it above the law because religious people, particularly the classically theistic, must necessarily believe that there is something that transcends human institutions. I'd be disappointed if he had worn a helmet, if it defied the fundamental principles of his religion.

He should not have been aquitted (though I personally don't understand the point of laws designed to force people to protect themself...I don't see how he is a danger to others by wearing a turban not a helment, only to himself) because he broke the law. What he ought to have done is bought a car instead of a motorcycle. If your religion requires you to do something that makes it impossible for you to legally ride a bike, then make a sacrifice for your religion and get a sedan like everyone else.

(...I don't see how he is a danger to others by wearing a turban not a helment, only to himself)

I wonder what kind of damage would be done to the poor 5 year old girl that witnessed some guy not wearing a helmet have his head crushed like a grape after colliding with a car.

If the religious practice is so important to the Sikh, and there is a helmet law in Canada, THEN MAYBE HE SHOULDN'T BE RIDING A MOTORCYCLE.

They should create a Sikh Helmet.

There are precedents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Regiment) in Sikh history

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b0/Sikh_helmet.jpg/346px-Sikh_helmet.jpg

Or they can wear a patka. The helmet would go over it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/131981870_6cd72d8f7d.jpg

Why don't they wrap a turban around the outside of a helmet?

Why don't they wrap a turban around the outside of a helmet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbvXAbJdz1U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXPrN3EI5hM&feature=related

Here's an original Sardarji tying a gorgeous turban

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kphlX9gcX0&feature=related

I wonder what kind of damage would be done to the poor 5 year old girl that witnessed some guy not wearing a helmet have his head crushed like a grape after colliding with a car.

That's a good argument to outlaw motorcycles in general, but a weak one in relation to helmets.

Your argument would also be a good one in relation to hang gliding, with or without helmets, parachuting, hunting and so on.

Hell, driving could be seen as a crime in general. Viva public transport, reduce the number of fatalities children observe.

I live in Ontario, it's a province in Canada. That's like a state for you Yanks.

Anyhow, one day last year a devout Sikh was pulled over by the police because he wasn't wearing a helmet while riding his motorcycle. In Ontario it is law and he's given a ticket. The Sikh who was wearing a turban at the time of the incident challenges it in court. His defense is that his religion requires him to wear the turban. Anyway they get a lot of media coverage and the judge writes a 36 page ruling that finds the guy guilty as charged.

I really couldn't care less about the Sikh religion or any other religion for that matter but what I'm wondering is why a religion puts their requirements above the law? above the safety of the individual?

One more thing.... Is it fair to have the judge acquit the guy on religious grounds and place the Sikh biker in danger(no more protective helmet). If you were judge would you want that on your conscience? Would you blame yourself if the Sikh was killed in an accident because you let him go helmetless?

And now for the big question..... Will this kind of crap ever stop?


first of all, the law is so "big brother". i'm so sick of the government telling us what to do and how to live and take care of ourselves. it's one thing to put someone else in danger, but if it's your head then it should be your decision...

secondly, and in regards to the religious and their ceremonial b/s...IT'S A HAT!

We do have to pay for emergency services if the guy gets run over without a helmet.

oh so what. you have to pay for emergency services if they get run over with a helmet too. and you have to pay for them if they don't die right away too. best case scenario is they get their brains splattered all over the pavement and die right away as they wish.

That's a good argument to outlaw motorcycles in general, but a weak one in relation to helmets.

Your argument would also be a good one in relation to hang gliding, with or without helmets, parachuting, hunting and so on.

Hell, driving could be seen as a crime in general. Viva public transport, reduce the number of fatalities children observe.

Your argument is not to the point. If it is illegal to ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet, anyone doing so is breaking the law period.

Having said that the statistics show a reduction in deaths if accidents occur when a driver is wearing a helmet. I cannot quote chapter and verse but I'm sure the data are available.I rode a motorcycle for many years and , in my experience, the majority of deaths among motorcyclists were due to head injuries. Broken limbs can be mended, broken skulls spilling brains cannot.

oh so what. you have to pay for emergency services if they get run over with a helmet too. and you have to pay for them if they don't die right away too.

I think that the problem is deeper than that. I am talking about lawsuits and accidents involving two vehicles.

And now for the big question..... Will this kind of crap ever stop?Haaa!
No way mate
:)

In U.S it has pretty much stopped. Try and create your own religion and see what happens.

Really??? How so???

If I had the time I'd consider making my own religion. Perhaps something from Norse mythology or Japanese Shinto or maybe a new Islam, that should be easy.

Unless the religion is harmless and doesnt resemble a cult then maybe, but you will certainly be looked into. Develop customs that can endanger your followers or other people and it wont last. There is precedence that supports this.

No I was thinking of building a Shinto Shrine and claiming a tax break :p

Anarchy lives! Seems it really doesn't matter what a judge thinks because God is going to straighten us out anyway.

Well in the eternal view of things what the judge rules makes not a jot of difference at all.

Also it is not Anarchy it is simply two law systems running in parallel. There should be no laws requiring people to wear helmets anyway. One does not harm others by refusing to wear a helmet. One can only cause harm to themselves. The only reason why helmets have been made mandatory under the laws of some nations is the effective pressure applied by insurance co-operations motivated by maximizing profits for their shareholders.



He's so wise. He lets judges make decisions even though it means nothing. Are we not mandated by Him to make sensible decisions...what for?

Let the individual make sensible decisions. Not the government make laws trying to make everyone sensible. Lets make a law that everyone has to have a bath twice a day or lets make a law that people are to cook eggs for 3 minutes before eating them. We can take this nanny state stupidity to the max and have 10.000 laws telling people what to do every second of the say and every day of the week in an attempt to wrap the worlds population up in cotton wool and stifle freedom.



Then you shouldn't get upset when someone calls you a moron for believing in such foolishness.

I feel sorry for the person who calls belief in God moronic. If i got upset then i would not come in here for years would i? You atheists really do overestimate the effects of your mockery and insults don't you.


In the meantime the rest of us heathens will do our best to keep you from being killed unnecessarily.

What? I wear a helmet when i ride a bike mate. I do so to protect my head from injuries. I wear it because it is the smart thing to do, NOT BECAUSE SOME FACIST GOVERNEMNT TELLS ME TOO. But i respect the person who believes they should not wear a helmet. That’s the difference between one who believes in freedom and one like you who has the mindset of a dictator.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You forgot to mention the lake of fire awaiting those who force others to wear helmets.

And they said unto him: " Wherefore wearest thou not a helmet ?" And he replied: " See ye not that I ride a slow donkey "

Eugenics: 3.11

Also it is not Anarchy it is simply two law systems running in parallel. There should be no laws requiring people to wear helmets anyway. One does not harm others by refusing to wear a helmet. One can only cause harm to themselves. The only reason why helmets have been made mandatory under the laws of some nations is the effective pressure applied by insurance co-operations motivated by maximizing profits for their shareholders.

Let the individual make sensible decisions. Not the government make laws trying to make everyone sensible. Lets make a law that everyone has to have a bath twice a day or lets make a law that people are to cook eggs for 3 minutes before eating them. We can take this nanny state stupidity to the max and have 10.000 laws telling people what to do every second of the say and every day of the week in an attempt to wrap the worlds population up in cotton wool and stifle freedom.

You atheists really do overestimate the effects of your mockery and insults don't you.

What? I wear a helmet when i ride a bike mate. I do so to protect my head from injuries. I wear it because it is the smart thing to do, NOT BECAUSE SOME FACIST GOVERNEMNT TELLS ME TOO. But i respect the person who believes they should not wear a helmet. That’s the difference between one who believes in freedom and one like you who has the mindset of a dictator.
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M*W: As a person who believes in freedom, I don't understand how bikers have to wear a helmet (yes, I understand about spilled brains), but it hardly seems fair in comparison to people riding in cars. It's a law that we have to wear seat belts. (I know the statistics show the advantage of wearing them). But there is something a tad wrong with the laws governing these motor vehicles. We have to wear seat belts. They have to wear helmets. We're both on the same road at the same time. I hit you, you die. You hit me, you die. Helmet or no helmet. Seat belt or no seat belt. The odds are against the one who chooses to propel a two-wheeled vehicle, but the riders in a car have to be bound and gagged to their seat. I find this is an imbalanced equation. BTW, I always wear my seat belt (...statistics have shown...), but I resent having to tie myself down like a load of bricks while the motorcyclist weaves in and out of the traffic just asking to paint the highway with his blood.

Disclaimer: I like motorcycles and have on occasion, in an earlier day, rode tandem, so I'm not in any way condemning motorcycles or cyclists, but I wore a helmet even when it wasn't required.

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M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be left waiting for us in our graves--or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth." ~ Ayn Rand

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M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"I believe tht we are solely responsible for our choices, and we have to accept the consequence of every deed, word and thought throughout our lifetime." ~ Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, b. 1926 Swiss-born American Psychiatrist

I think that the problem is deeper than that. I am talking about lawsuits and accidents involving two vehicles.

whether or not this guy is wearing a helmet has absolutely no bearing on how injured another person may be if involved in the accident, or whose fault it is.

Unless the religion is harmless and doesnt resemble a cult then maybe, but you will certainly be looked into. Develop customs that can endanger your followers or other people and it wont last. There is precedence that supports this.

From the Irony Desk of 'Christians in Defense of Religiouse Freedom' (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/mayweb-only/5-7-53.0.html) newsroom: :m:

Well in the eternal view of things what the judge rules makes not a jot of difference at all.

I get the feeling that you can't wait to die. Not by your own hand but because of a decision you or someone else might make where you become the victim. If your death is a product of free will being exercised then is it proof of God in your mind? I sense that you feel there is some glory attached to dying because of a choice you or someone else made. What are you, Christian Samurai?

Would you have a problem if the law suddenly said all Christians must die?

I get the feeling that you can't wait to die.

You have been coming here long enough to know i would love to die. I have made it quite clear in several posts, I am amazed that you only get the "feeling" now after all this time when my desire should have been as clear as crystal.



Not by your own hand but because of a decision you or someone else might make where you become the victim.

No. I would prefer just to be walking down the road one day and drop dead from a brain clot or some similar cause or maybe die in my sleep tonight.
If i did die as a victim then someone would be guilty of my death and the vengeance of God is far more terrible than any form of death that could be perpetrated on me. So i do not wish for someone to kill me for their sakes. But having said that i know it is a great honour to be persecuted and killed because of ones faith in the Will of God.



If your death is a product of free will being exercised then is it proof of God in your mind?

No.



I sense that you feel there is some glory attached to dying because of a choice you or someone else made. What are you, Christian Samurai?

There is honour in being killed for the reason of ones faith in God. But the Samurai like the modern jihadist suicide bombers die in the act of killing others, so they are not martyrs. They are murderers killed while carrying out their act of murder. Martyrs never seek to kill others.



Would you have a problem if the law suddenly said all Christians must die?

Personaly No. But the ones who made such a law would have an eternal problem. And the people who heeded such a law and started killing Christians would have an eternal problem. The ones who would suffer the most out of such a law would be the founders and the upholders of that law.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Oh PS Prophecy tells me that such a law will one day come into operation and christians will be beheaded for their faith in the will of God.

You have been coming here long enough to know i would love to die. I have made it quite clear in several posts, I am amazed that you only get the "feeling" now after all this time when my desire should have been as clear as crystal.
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M*W: Your desire to die for your faith is still a death wish anyway you look at it. That saddens me.

I would prefer just to be walking down the road one day and drop dead from a brain clot or some similar cause or maybe die in my sleep tonight.
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M*W: How is this more honorable? Life is life, and death is death. At least you get to enjoy more stuff in life than you do in death. Death is so... final. I know you don't understand this. How you get there doesn't matter to you but only to the loved ones you leave behind.

If i did die as a victim then someone would be guilty of my death and the vengeance of God is far more terrible than any form of death that could be perpetrated on me. So i do not wish for someone to kill me for their sakes. But having said that i know it is a great honour to be persecuted and killed because of ones faith in the Will of God.
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M*W: The likelihood of your being martyred for your faith is slim to none. It is more likely you would have a blood clot or heart attack. These things already kill 50% of us. Also, the likelihood of someone killing you for their own sake (robbery, assault, etc.) is statistically higher than faith-related martydom. In any event, having a wish to die is not psychologically sound.

There is honour in being killed for the reason of ones faith in God. But the Samurai like the modern jihadist suicide bombers die in the act of killing others, so they are not martyrs. They are murderers killed while carrying out their act of murder. Martyrs never seek to kill others.
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M*W: You're thinking along the lines of the suicide bombers! In fact, you are a terrorist if only to yourself! If there were a god, you've pretty much convinced me that your god is a bloodthirsty one, and I wouldn't want to believe in such a terrorist!

But the ones who made such a law would have an eternal problem. And the people who heeded such a law and started killing Christians would have an eternal problem. The ones who would suffer the most out of such a law would be the founders and the upholders of that law.
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M*W: You believe that the bad guys would have an "eternal problem," and you know what? They believe that of christians, too! The reality of it is, you're both wrong, but you're both willing to die as martyrs. How sad. Thanks, but I'll put my money on another heart attack.

PS Prophecy tells me that such a law will one day come into operation and christians will be beheaded for their faith in the will of God.
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M*W: Oh, the pathos you believe in! That's just not normal. Not only do you have desire for martyrdom (this is el sicko), the terrorist god you believe in is a bloodthirsty bastard! Uh, but who cares? He doesn't exist anywhere but in your head. IMO, it's not my problemo.

You have been coming here long enough to know i would love to die. I have made it quite clear in several posts, I am amazed that you only get the "feeling" now after all this time when my desire should have been as clear as crystal.

Sorry, but I go through life thinking about other things. It's not part of my mental make-up to think about dying. I accept it and I'm quite prepared for its eventuality. I'm not naive to think people don't ponder it every day but in your case I find no logic to your reasoning.

You resemble your god. The occupation with death you share with Him is remarkable. Violent death seems to be a particular obsession you both share. I can picture you at God's side, urging Him on to put the sword to every last one of us who didn't understand God the way you did. You'll watch from Heaven and smile with glee when God chucks them into this lake of fire you seem to love so much.

It's macabre. It's Himmleresque. It's the final solution. It's sick. But most of all it's funny as hell.

I think you really want to die so you can say to the rest of us as we go to hell that, 'I told you so' :shrug:

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M*W: Your desire to die for your faith is still a death wish anyway you look at it. That saddens me.

I never said i wished to die for my faith. But that it was an hounor. What i said is that i simply wish to die. I simply said i wished to die and that i would prefer to die suddenly or in my sleep.



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M*W: How is this more honorable? Life is life, and death is death. At least you get to enjoy more stuff in life than you do in death. Death is so... final. I know you don't understand this. How you get there doesn't matter to you but only to the loved ones you leave behind.

Well that’s the difference between a believer in God and an athiest. We do not see dead as final/the end. If i had young children then my attitude would be different. I would like to stay alive to support them until such time as they can support themselves. Once thing is true however each and every person who loves another people will mourn their departure. So if the departure is tomorrow or if it is in 60 years times makes no difference. People will come to know the sadness of loss.



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M*W: The likelihood of your being martyred for your faith is slim to none. It is more likely you would have a blood clot or heart attack. These things already kill 50% of us. Also, the likelihood of someone killing you for their own sake (robbery, assault, etc.) is statistically higher than faith-related martydom. In any event, having a wish to die is not psychologically sound.

Why? If you know there is something far better on the other side of death and this world is not a nice place for you, then wishing for death is logical.



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M*W: You're thinking along the lines of the suicide bombers! In fact, you are a terrorist if only to yourself! If there were a god, you've pretty much convinced me that your god is a bloodthirsty one, and I wouldn't want to believe in such a terrorist!

That’s just a rant MW, Bit of irrational emotional sprinkling to make you feel better, but in the end your view is distorted because you do not believe in God and eternal life.



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M*W: You believe that the bad guys would have an "eternal problem," and you know what? They believe that of christians, too! The reality of it is, you're both wrong, but you're both willing to die as martyrs. How sad. Thanks, but I'll put my money on another heart attack.

As i said, their martyrdom includes carrying out massacres on a grand scale. My martyrdom includes no killing of others but simply allowing oneself to be killed.


*************
M*W: Oh, the pathos you believe in! That's just not normal. Not only do you have desire for martyrdom (this is el sicko), the terrorist god you believe in is a bloodthirsty bastard! Uh, but who cares? He doesn't exist anywhere but in your head. IMO, it's not my problemo.

hummm :o Being normal is an evil world is an abhorrent concept. Being just like the rest and allowing oneself to be used by evil authorities is abhorrent to me. Your a former Vietnam nurse, you where used to support napalming of innocents, you think that is good and patriotic. Who is the distorted one here?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar,

Can you leave me a few dollars in your will ? Meantime you might be interested i reading what Freud had to say about the death wish. I am not endorsing Freud, merely suggest ing that you might find him interesting.

Adstar,

Can you leave me a few dollars in your will ? Meantime you might be interested i reading what Freud had to say about the death wish. I am not endorsing Freud, merely suggest ing that you might find him interesting.

Does anyone still consider Freud as valid?

Does anyone still consider Freud as valid?

Are you kidding ? There are lots of people who are happy to pay someone to listen to them. Freud is not part of mainstream psychology. I was present on an occasion when a clinical psychologist was asked what he felt about Freud. He replied, " I think that's best left to those who understand him."

There's an old joke about a guy who related a dream to his analyst. The analyst points out that the symbols in his dream shows a repressed desire to have sex with his mother-in-law.

The guy on the couch says, " so when I dreamt I was having sex with her a few weeks ago, what did that really mean ? "

I never said i wished to die for my faith. But that it was an hounor. What i said is that i simply wish to die. I simply said i wished to die and that i would prefer to die suddenly or in my sleep.
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M*W: Any way you state it, you still have a morbid death wish. You have to be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it!

Well that’s the difference between a believer in God and an athiest. We do not see dead as final/the end. If i had young children then my attitude would be different. I would like to stay alive to support them until such time as they can support themselves. Once thing is true however each and every person who loves another people will mourn their departure. So if the departure is tomorrow or if it is in 60 years times makes no difference. People will come to know the sadness of loss.
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M*W: It sounds as if you don't think you have anything to live for. I fail to see how a morbid desire for your own death is a christian virtue.

Why? If you know there is something far better on the other side of death and this world is not a nice place for you, then wishing for death is logical.
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M*W: I don't wish for death. In my lifetime, I've seen death all around me, but I've managed to escape it many times. And I still know there is nothing beyond death. Why would there need to be? This life is all you have. By wishing and waiting for death to come, you fail to live this life. I have a very strong feeling that you have let life pass you by in many ways. By dwelling on death, you are not living life.

That’s just a rant MW, Bit of irrational emotional sprinkling to make you feel better, but in the end your view is distorted because you do not believe in God and eternal life.
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M*W: My opinion may be rare, but it's not distorted. Wishing for death to come is distorted. It doesn't make me feel better to know there are people out there who are waiting and hoping to die. That's the mentality of the partakers of Jim Jones kool-aid. Do you think these people have entered paradise? What about David Koresh and the hostages in his compound? They died as martyrs, most of them, I'd say, but do you think they are in paradise? No. They're dead. They lived their lives believing in an after-life, just like you, but their ashes have returned to the earth, and that's as far as they go.

As i said, their martyrdom includes carrying out massacres on a grand scale. My martyrdom includes no killing of others but simply allowing oneself to be killed.
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M*W: Adstar, that's really not a sane psychological statement. Why would you "simply allow yourself to be killed?" Do you bring endangerment upon yourself? I seriously think you have gone beyond the death wish and are in some kind of death action mode. That is not going to gain you paradise. When you realize this, maybe you will start to live in this lifetime.

hummm :o Being normal is an evil world is an abhorrent concept. Being just like the rest and allowing oneself to be used by evil authorities is abhorrent to me. Your a former Vietnam nurse, you where used to support napalming of innocents, you think that is good and patriotic. Who is the distorted one here?
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M*W: I agree with you that innocents were napalmed, but I didn't napalm anyone. It wasn't my war. I have a great respect for the Vietnamese who lived through it and came to my country. I feel as if I had a little something to do with them being here. I fail to see how that is distorted. At least I did something for my fellow human beings while I was dodging napalm myself.

I guess the difference between you and me is that I've lived life to the fullest while you've been waiting for death.

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M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"I believe life should be lived so vividly and so intensely that thought of another life, or of a longer life, are not necessary." ~ Marjory Stoneman Douglas

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M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"However much I am at the mercy of the world, I never let myself get lost by brooding over its misery. I hold firmly to the thought that each one of us can do a little to bring some portion of that misery to an end." ~ Albert Schweitzer, 1875-1965, French Philosopher and Physician

If I remember correctly, there is an order of Catholic monks known as Cistercians who practise austerity and spend their lives preparing for death. They sleep on bare boards and one of their sayings is that " it's a hard bed to lie on but a good bed to die on " I'm sure they'll find room for Adstar if he wishes to join them.

One can't help but wonder about the mentality of people who are drawn to such an order.

I suppose i should not be surprised when people do not read what i say. I have been righting here for a few years now and people continue to show that they are more interested in projecting their view upon what is written rather than actually reading and thinking about what has been put down.


[QUOTE=Medicine*Woman;1782031]*************
M*W: Any way you state it, you still have a morbid death wish. You have to be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it!

I really don't get why you have stated this? To me it's like saying "be careful about wishing to go into eternity and being surrounded by pure love and happiness forever because it might just happen" LOL YES YES YES PLEASE :D

Your projecting your own fear of death here MW.


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M*W: It sounds as if you don't think you have anything to live for. I fail to see how a morbid desire for your own death is a christian virtue.

It is virtuous to be prepared to be killed for ones faith in God.
It is not virtuous to seek to be killed because of ones faith in God.

I have said before (and you have like normal over looked it) that i wanted to die because i wanted to be with God in eternity to be free of this world as it is now. I never claimed this desire was virtuous and i am not now, actually my desire shows my weakness in my desire to be free from the crap that is life on earth now.. My desire for death is a product of to forces. The repulsion i feel for the world i see before me now and the attraction of the eternal existence i see in the next.



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M*W: I don't wish for death. In my lifetime, I've seen death all around me, but I've managed to escape it many times.

You will not escape death. You did not escape death. When death comes for you it will come and you will be able to do nothing about it.


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M*W: My opinion may be rare, but it's not distorted. Wishing for death to come is distorted. It doesn't make me feel better to know there are people out there who are waiting and hoping to die.

Your going to have to deal with the reality that there are people like me in the world then. Because although i want to go away from you, God wills that i remain here with you.


Do you think these people have entered paradise? What about David Koresh and the hostages in his compound? They died as martyrs, most of them, I'd say, but do you think they are in paradise? No. They're dead. They lived their lives believing in an after-life, just like you, but their ashes have returned to the earth, and that's as far as they go.

I do not think that David or his gun wielding followers have entered into eternity. They took to the sword in rebellion against the Will of God revealed through Jesus not to kill. But as for their little ones who the US authorities gassed and burned to death on that terrible day, they will be surrounded by the love of God in eternity forever. I would not want to be a member of the US assault team who carried out that evil massacre that day. God Hates those who shed innocent blood.


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M*W: Adstar, that's really not a sane psychological statement. Why would you "simply allow yourself to be killed?"

Because I believe Jesus. And if i did not allow myself to be killed then i would be a loathsome fake wouldn't i.


Do you bring endangerment upon yourself?

It’s a fine line between bringing endangerment upon myself and seeking to avoid endangerment by failing to give the gospel message.

To make things simple I do not go out looking to become a martyr but i do not avoid it either. If it happens it will happen. I know that even preaching the Word of God on this internet forum has marked me out for death. I know full well that the authorities record each and every keystroke made over the internet. When the time comes there will be more than enough evidence and intel to have me rounded up and executed.


I seriously think you have gone beyond the death wish and are in some kind of death action mode. That is not going to gain you paradise. When you realize this, maybe you will start to live in this lifetime.

I never for once believed that the act of martyrdom gains me access to paradise. That’s you projecting again, looks like your projecting an islamic belief on to me this time. No, i am Saved by the atonement of the Messiah Jesus not by anything that happens to me.

And if you are right that i am in some kind of "death action mode" then i have been in it for the past 20 years because my views on this matter are the same today as they where back then. And it is good to have your bags packed and be ready to go when He calls. :)



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M*W: I agree with you that innocents were napalmed, but I didn't napalm anyone. It wasn't my war. I have a great respect for the Vietnamese who lived through it and came to my country. I feel as if I had a little something to do with them being here. I fail to see how that is distorted. At least I did something for my fellow human beings while I was dodging napalm myself.

Talk about denial??? This statement is a construct from a former army nurse who wants to distance herself from the bloodshed she supported.

Those who support killing have their share in the blood that is shed. You have taken part in killing 10 million Vietnamese and contributed to the contamination of their environment leading to the malformation of babes in their agent orange contaminated environments. You where a willing agent in the satanic game played there and your self justifications might act to help your own denial but they will not cut it with the Lord.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If I remember correctly, there is an order of Catholic monks known as Cistercians who practise austerity and spend their lives preparing for death. They sleep on bare boards and one of their sayings is that " it's a hard bed to lie on but a good bed to die on " I'm sure they'll find room for Adstar if he wishes to join them.



No doubt they would find room for me, But i would never join a catholic institution.

I guess the mindset of those who join such orders are people who are misguidedly looking to achieve what they think is righteousness in the flesh. A lot of people are walking down that vain road.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days