I don't know if this has already been discussed before, but oh well

I am talking particularly about things like dissection that we have to do in biology class each year (after grade 10).

I was talking to a friend of mine about this, and he strongly opposes it, he says he would rather fail the course than do the dissection, well yeah it's understandable because he's a vegetarian as well. He classifies all scientific labortory companies that supply the schools with these dissection subjects such as fetal pigs or earthworms to be evil. He thinks that these animals did not die of natural causes, but were killed so they can be sold to schools. and he called me a "serial killer" the day after I did the dissection of the pig in bio class.

I thought it was cool, like many other dissections of organisms, I think they help you to learn exactly what's inside an organism, because sometimes diagrams don't help

I think as long as the dissection is properly prepared and limited to certain types of animals, it's okay.

What do you think?

I think that as long as you aren't abusing animals, that dissecting them is an exelent learning opertunity. I also think that like further on in Med school or something, that it's better to learn and practice on an animal than on an actual human. I also think that the number of animals used for dissection should not be insanly large, for that would show irresponsibility on our part as humans. Moderation is good.

actually I think it's alright to dissect a deceased human rather than animals in med school, because it's more convienient, and it avoids some ethically issues because we are practicing on the bodies of our organisms. Plus, the ultimate goal of dissecting animals is to learn about the biological systems in living organisms, and to make developments for ourselves.

Its perfectly alright. With all the other shit we're doing to the environment, its not like humans are a higher form of life anyways.

Does your friend drive, or plan on driving? Does he knit his own clothes..does he take showers?? I've always found the vegeterian moralist types to be pretty ignorant to the real issues.

I think its wonderful. In fact they should require science classes to breed mice and rats at the beginning of the year, give extra credit to those who take them home over the holidays and then when they are six months old dissect the pups… :rolleyes:

He thinks that these animals did not die of natural causes, but were killed so they can be sold to schools.

For what it is worth (~0) s/he is probably correct. When I dissected a pigeon in biology, my pigeon forensics skills helped me to determine that the pigeon was killed by a narrow, penetrating chest wound traveling directly through its heart.

However, to be fair, his/her complaint is no more valid here than with the animals that people eat, or even less so... dissection of animals contributes to the advancement of education and human knowledge, and I guarantee that - if your friend ever wants to provide medical care to small animals - they'll be a better animal doctor if they've done a few dissections to learn about anatomy.

Oh please. Dissecting a few animals in class doesn’t teach you anything that a book wouldn’t. It’s just much more entertaining and fun. I agree that doctors and vets will have to work on dead animals, but I see no reason for 12 year olds pulling apart frogs other than it lets them have fun and do something interesting. Its like having to make a model of a Viking village in history class…

Actually why don’t the just use all the birds killed during spring migration by light pollution (they fly into tall buildings). Apparently they estimate 100 million die that way http://forests.org/archive/america/skyturno.htm

actually I think it's alright to dissect a deceased human rather than animals in med school

I agree, but sometimes it can be cheaper to dissect a pig, or some thing simmilar to human anatomy. I hope my surgeon has dissected a cadiver before he operates on me! :)

Oh please. Dissecting a few animals in class doesn’t teach you anything that a book wouldn’t.

Who knows more about watermelons: A kid who eats them all the time, can describe the smell, taste and texture, or a kid who's read about them in a book? Intelligence goes much deeper than the visual and auditory..what you're told in class.

Dissecting a few animals in class doesn’t teach you anything that a book wouldn’t. It’s just much more entertaining and fun.

Actually, you get a much finer sense of anatomy in three dimensions from dissection, and often you learn (even from dissecting simple things like plants) about things that are not described in books.

For example, dissecting a preserved animal and then a fresh one gives you some idea of how much damage time does even to something that is protected from bacterial growth; the difference is pretty stunning, and dissecting fresh animals is a lot more helpful.

dissection is disgusting and wrong, and beacuse you seem to think its fun imm gonna put you off some things:

shampoo - contains animal placenta(afterbirth)
candies - contains ground up cow hooves
chocolate - contains pig intestinal extract
cheese - enzyme from cows stomach lining
soap - decomposed animal fat
'natural' things - contain ground up beetles

thats enough for now so shut up unless you want to know what else your really eating

Does this kind of thing bother you? I'm usually more concerned about the amount of mouse shit in my food, not the regular ingredients... as someone who has taken a fair amount of biology, I can categorically state that "cheese contains cow stomach lining extract" is not on the list of things that surprise me.

In fact, as "disgusting food facts" go, these are pretty tame. Did you know that the regulated number of maggots in frozen pizza is "not more than two per hundred grams of pizza" in the US? So, rest assured next time you munch on your pizza, the FDA has ensured that it will not contain more than five, maybe six maggots.

The truth will save us all.

thats enough for now so shut up unless you want to know what else your really eating

What does that have to do with dissecting stuff. Feel free to tell me "what I'm really eating." I don't really care, it's added protien.

I have to agree with the Xerx on this one... hands-on, mah friends, hands-on.

Actually, you get a much finer sense of anatomy in three dimensions from dissection, and often you learn (even from dissecting simple things like plants) about things that are not described in books.
For example, dissecting a preserved animal and then a fresh one gives you some idea of how much damage time does even to something that is protected from bacterial growth; the difference is pretty stunning, and dissecting fresh animals is a lot more helpful.
Who knows more about watermelons: A kid who eats them all the time, can describe the smell, taste and texture, or a kid who's read about them in a book? Intelligence goes much deeper than the visual and auditory..what you're told in class.
I totally agree, different people have different learning styles, some learn best visually, some learn well auditorily, and there are others who learn best about the subject by using his/her hands to do something, such as dissecting an organism

I am okay with dissection, but only if they die naturally. How would you feel if someone killed you, and then dissected you for the betterment of their species? Say they are aliens. They might use the same rational to kill you. I think it is okay to dissect dead people, because they are okay with it, and have died of natural causes. I am also okay with dissecting animals if they die of natural causes too.

I agree, but sometimes it can be cheaper to dissect a pig, or some thing simmilar to human anatomy. I hope my surgeon has dissected a cadiver before he operates on me! :)
yep, that's why med students practice on dead organisms first.
And by having the chance to personally dissect an organism at a young age, the student gains thorough and detailed knowledge about the internal system of the organism

Jack Quack: And? The very fact that I eat other organisms signals that I accept this way of things. Our position at the top of the food chain is a matter of circumstance, not precedent or holy right.

If anything is smart enough to catch me and dissect me... I might complain, but I wouldn't feel that the universe had gone awry just because some alien wanted to look inside me.

Incidentally, cows do not dissect other animals, and that does not save them from us.

Who knows more about watermelons: A kid who eats them all the time, can describe the smell, taste and texture, or a kid who's read about them in a book? Intelligence goes much deeper than the visual and auditory..what you're told in class.


How critical is it to understand the "smell, taste and texture" of a frog? How many high school kids will actually end up pursuing a career in Biology? Dissecting and (previously) living thing in high school is a waste. You can learn basic and, intermediate biology using books and graphic illustrations and videos.

How critical is it to understand the feeling of driving a car? Driving practice and road tests are a waste. You can learn how to drive entirely through the use of tutorials and instructional films.:P

How many high school kids will actually end up pursuing a career in Biology? Dissecting and (previously) living thing in high school is a waste. You can learn basic and, intermediate biology using books and graphic illustrations and videos.
the point of having dissections in high school is to widen the students' knowledge, and to introduce them to a new field in science, some students will end up having an interest in biology, and may contribute greatly in the future. (this is why we have elementary schools and high schools, they teach us knowledge in all types of subjects, so we know what to do in the future)

If you say that we should stop dissecting organisms as a part of the lesson because not many students will actually eventually pursue a career in biology, then an even the number of biologists will further decline, because dissection experiences can inspire many students to go into the biology field, and can enrich the knowledge of those who are interested in biology

I think its great. They should also be made to slaughter any animals they eat in the cafeteria, show them what modern life is really all about.

Driving a car and eating watermelon are things which most high school students will DO in their lives and it is usefull to teach by hands on. the overwhelming majority of high school kids will never need to operate on a frog or human.

And why shouldn't they learn?

the point of having dissections in high school is to widen the students' knowledge, and to introduce them to a new field in science, some students will end up having an interest in biology, and may contribute greatly in the future. (this is why we have elementary schools and high schools, they teach us knowledge in all types of subjects, so we know what to do in the future)

If you say that we should stop dissecting organisms as a part of the lesson because not many students will actually eventually pursue a career in biology, then an even the number of biologists will further decline, because dissection experiences can inspire many students to go into the biology field, and can enrich the knowledge of those who are interested in biology

By dissecting, are they really becoming interested in biology or are they intrigued by the gore? I hope that doctors and biologists chose their fields because of their fascination with science, nature and healing and not for interest in playing in blood and gut.

And why shouldn't they learn?

Sure. They should learn everything if they can. But how about spending the time learning some math and english to get them ready for college? (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/education/bal-md.exit10jun10,0,624434.story?coll=bal-local-headlines)

How critical is it to understand the "smell, taste and texture" of a frog? How many high school kids will actually end up pursuing a career in Biology? Dissecting and (previously) living thing in high school is a waste. You can learn basic and, intermediate biology using books and graphic illustrations and videos.

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge"
-Bertrand Russel

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge"
-Bertrand Russel

True.

Acquire knowledge to survive before seeking knowledge for pleasure.
-dsdsds

I think you should seek after knowledge, regardless of whether it is useless or will actually help with survival.

Which brings it nicely around to the purpose of education, to make better citizens, workers, or to keep kids of the streets.

It would be interesting to see how much people remember from class dissection, and what actual impact it had, if not for the kid who threw the eye across the room and chased the girls with the guts. If it is just a teaching tool, then why is the grade given for performing it, rather than a test on the ‘facts’ you should have learned?

Dissection has a nice history, and it might be that its acceptance, and the acceptance of animals as objects and not subjects is taught at such an early age because it is critical to ‘modern’ life –i.e. animal testing and food production.

um... I strongly disagree with you, weebee

if not for the kid who threw the eye across the room and chased the girls with the guts
first of all, I am talking about grade 11 students, well at least here we don't do any dissection before grade 11, so the kind of behaviour you describe is not realistic among grade 11 students, who are more mature.

and the acceptance of animals as objects and not subjects is taught at such an early age because it is critical to ‘modern’ life –i.e. animal testing and food production
that is not true, we treat animals entirely as subjects, like humans, I don't think there is anything different between how we dissect fetal pigs (died of natural causes) and how we dissect human bodies (also died of natural causes)

and yes dissecting or harmful experimentation of vertebrates like pigs is not permitted at science fairs here, but experimentation of invertebrates is allowed

I know of a med student in London who chopped off his bodies hand and put it up his sleeve. He walked around the underground and waited for people to bump into him and would then drop the hand… I went to an American school and did dissection around grade 11, and there was a lot of missing parts by the end. I doubt that anyone has done a study to see the effectiveness of this ‘teaching tool’, but instead because the students like it its been kept and supported.

I don’t know if you heard of this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2493291.stm? I think a dead human body is an object, not a subject, unless you know the person. Organ transplant is a nice example of exchanging machine bits of the body, but not part of the person.

I’m not sure that I’d consider a foetal pig which died when its mother was killed for food dieing of ‘natural’ causes. Again I have no problem so long as the children care for the animal before it dies, which would be possible in the case of cats, which in some US states are supplied to schools for dissection from animal shelters.

http://www.psyeta.org/sa/sa8.1/barr.shtml looks interesting but don't have time to read it all right now....

Where I am, in a regular high school biology class, we don't dissect stuff. You have to take AP, zoology, or marine science for that. But I did find a dead turtle and brought it to the teacher for help with dissecting it. We had trouble identifing organs and stuff becaue on the web and in books there wern't any good diagrams or pictures. If I had learned about the turtle anatomy through those few, little detailed diagrams, I wouldn't have learned very much. Now I have at least a basic understanding of of turtle anatomy. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some stuff needs to be hands on to get a good grasp of the material. Diagrams just don't cut it sometimes.

I agree, plus diagrams of animals' internal system can only be made after dissecting the organism, and what's the point of reading the diagram when you are not going to use the knowledge and actually identify the parts of an organism in real life?

disection of animals is just disgusting, humans on the other hand i am fine with dissecting. i get all the info i need on biology from anatomy books, just disect one then write a book and no more will need to suffer

it is reasonable and understandable to consider dissection "disturbing" or "disgusting", because it's like holding a dead human's brain in your hands, it's gross because we know that we are making contacts with something that we also have
but we can never make any discoveries or developments if we don't pull things apart and look what's inside

I'm dead serious, what's wrong with holding a dead human's brain in your hands?

I am not saying there is anything wrong with holding a brain in your hands, I am okay with it, but you have to admit, some people cannot do it, they will even vomit when they see human intestines
first of all, there is differences between looking at pictures of an organ and actually holding it
secondly, about why some people consider holding a dead brain "gross", it's the same concept as why most of us cannot eat other humans' flesh, and neither can other species on Earth, an organism naturally repels consuming other organisms of the same species as food, I think it has something to do with our natural emotional bond with others in our species, we are emotionally attached and sympathized with one another in some way, so when we hold a human organ or eat human flesh, somewhere in our unconscious mind, we feel that we are eating ourselves, and we naturally reject that

people touch or see human organs and think it's gross because they unconsciously feel the organs are part of them as well, and the physical characteristic and texture is not that pleasant either
but if you see dead human body parts merely as dead flesh, then I don't think you would have a problem with holding or seeing it, it's all about thinking logically or emotionally when it comes to actually making contacts with these things

So then why can m,ost people eat animal flesh just fine?

same thing, we are not naturally emotionally attached to cows from a farm whose name we don't even know
but if you do develop some kind of emotional bond with an animal, it would be very hard for you to hurt it, or eat it. For instance, if you have been with a pet dog of yours for 8 years, would you be able to kill it or eat it?

eddy is right thats how i became i vegetarian all those 7 years ago, i noticed that the cat food had rabbit in in(i had pet rabbits and the time) and one thing led to another

One thing led to another?!? :confused: :eek: :(

yeah that is totally understandable vslayer

however, some scientists raise their own animal subjects and involve them in all sorts of potentially harmful tests, some can possibly kill them. I think this is an example of how some people abandon personal feelings and reject the interference of emotions for science:)