http://www.local10.com/entertainment/4371684/detail.html I saw her on the CBS Evening News in probably 1984. She was in a full foaming fury in support of some proposed anti-porn law somewhere. I mostly kept up with her and Catherine MacKinnon's doings by reading Playboy over the years. Nothing I ever read by or about Dworkin did anything to change my bad first impression. But I had forgotten about her until I read this today. I'm more of a Camille Paglia fan.
You read Playboy articles? No wonder you're a loser who makes superficial judgements. Poor Andrea, bit screwy but a great writer and she sure as hell had more balls than any of the ditzy 'sex positive' whores like Suzy Bright.
Xev, if you think I give a flying fuck about what you think about anything, you could not be more wrong. Yes, over the years I read the articles by Nat Hentoff, Kurt Vonnegut, Hunter S. Thompson, James Baldwin, and many others. And nothing I've ever read about Dworkin changed my mind that she was a sex negative psycho who hated men.
The "C" is no where near the "K" on the keyboard. So I must assume that you do not know who "Curt Vonnegut" is. Hunter S. Thompson I can't stand. He's from my home town and people will drive you up a fucking wall about Hunter S. Thompson being from Louisville and blah blah. I'll stick to coke and Coulter.
I like how you assume that I do. Actually, I would not do you the discourtesy of assuming that you think at all. As above noted. Who is Curt? Is he related to the author of Slaughterhouse-5? Is there a Kilgore Mackrel in there too? First mistake of an emotive, trivial mind: reading things about authors rather than actually reading those authors. I bet you tried to impress people by talking about "Curt" Vonnegut based on what you read on Amazon reviews. Cunt.
You remind me of Proud Muslim when I dismissed Islam, and he asked if I had read the Koran. Since I hadn't, I had no grounds upon which to criticize Islam in his opinion. BS. I know enough about Islam by world events, and by religion in general. I wonder how much of the book of Mormon he had to read before he decided that Mormonism was nonsense. Dworkin's support for the Indianapolis law that was struck down as unconstitutional American Booksellers V. Hudnut was enough for me. Anyone who views the First Amendment as an obstacle is an ideological foe. Especially if they're trying to take away my fwapping material. Just a Jerry Falwell from another part of the political spectrum. Must be careful about the spelling lest I undermine my point again. So far only two of the people I dislike the most on Sci. Anyone else have anything to say? I'd reply in kind on the insult Xev, but in past experience I would be edited where you will not. How about this: may you be afflicted with a particularly nasty form of cervical cancer.
You really can't. You shouldn't read things via a proxy. You should go to the source and form an opinion. In this case, you made a snap judgement about Dworkin. You dislike me? Why? Is it because I'm Irish?
Okay, this is boring. How do you know her views on the first amendment when you've never read her, you ignorent son of a syphilitic truck-stop hooker? She wrote well. She had courage and vision to stand for something, even if that something is as goofy as I love the hypocrisy here. You and every other liberal pansy would bitch to high heaven about something as harmless as Peter Sotos' "Pure" or any sort of pseudo-child pornography (because children are saaaacred) but god forbid that someone regulate "(1) Women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy pain or humiliation; or (2) Women are presented as sexual objects who experience sexual pleasure in being raped; or (3) Women are presented as sexual objects tied up or cut up or mutilated or bruised or physically hurt, or as dismembered or truncated or fragmented or severed into body parts; or (4) Women are presented as being penetrated by objects or animals; or (5) Women are presented in scenarios of degradation, injury abasement, torture, shown as filthy or inferior, bleeding, bruised, or hurt in a context that makes these conditions sexual; or (6) Women are presented as sexual objects for domination, conquest, violation, exploitation, possession, or use, or through postures or positions of servility or submission or display."" What else is some no-balls leftist like you going to get off on? Obscenity laws have been on the books since the founding of this country. You can't blame Dworkin for them. But then, like a typical liberal, you go off your already precarious emotional rocker whenever someone tries to enforce them. "Ooh, but we're all equal and we have the right to do whatever we want so long as we just pretend to be hurting each other" Clarity. Vision. Purpose. Lack of hypocrisy. Andrea, wack-job as she was, had more of those qualities in her pudgy little finger than you could even hope to possess.
There comes a time when you know enough. I don't need to know everything about Islam, it is a bunch of nonsensical theism no better than the rest. I don't need to know everything about Adolph Hitler to know he was a real asshole. I know about the holocaust, and many of his other crimes. That is more than enough. I read enough of Dworkin to know I didn't need to read any more. Quotes like this: Feminists are often asked whether pornography causes rape. The fact is that rape and prostitution caused and continue to cause pornography. Politically, culturally, socially, sexually, and economically, rape and prostitution generated pornography; and pornography depends for its continued existence on the rape and prostitution of women. It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. The basis for pornography is in evolutionary psychology, not misogyny.
Ted Kaczynski had courage and vision. So did Eric Rudolph. Yay for courage and vision! Do you have to read the Unabomber Manifesto in order to be able to dismiss Kaczynski? How many do you think have bothered to wade through it? It wasn't simply trying to have a law enforced. She was co-author of that law. And as a social libertarian, yes, I'm with the ACLU 99% of the time. Fuck censorship, and if you support it guess what? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Repo Man: Hitler was a visionary. But beyond that, the proper analogy is "I read the back cover of Mein Kampf, and I dated a Jewish girl. I can therefore critique Hitler's political philosophy" Just like you read Curt Vonnegut, author of novels like "Car Alarms of Miranda" and author under pseudonym of "Freya on the Whole Shell" by Jose Cuervo. Liberals love to talk about 'evolutionary psychology' - it absolves them of personal responsibility and allows them to feel superior to others. But why don't you explain yourself, and how "evolutionary psychology" accounts for misogynistic porn and not misogyny. Or maybe you want to start by telling us that pictures of women in servile or degrading actions are actually empowering and bold? I love second-gen feminists. Unless you're male. Then it will be less fun. Dworkin was a Jew, hence prone to idealistic views of humanity. We're all vile beasts at heart, but at least she had the courage to stand against our being so. (I liked how you ducked the issue of obscenity, pussy)
you ignorent son of a syphilitic truck-stop hooker? You possibly meant ignorant (one good turn...)? By way of reply, may your herpes lesions burn without relief both night and day. Yes, Hitler was a visionary. And what a grand vision it was! I suppose my negative impressions caused by the Final Solution could be ameliorated by a better understanding of the man and his "vision"? Obscenity? Hugh Hefner had to fight obscenity charges brought after the first peek of pubes in Playboy. Lenny Bruce had to repeatedly fight obscenity prosecutions. Obviously what is considered obscene is subjective. I've personally always found those True Crime rags that show women tied up, defenseless, and being threatened by a creep to be questionable. But as long as the consumer only whacks off to it, no harm done. No more time for fun tonight.
I've had enough tequila to numb my fingers, it's to the credit of my liver that I can still type. Spelling? Confusing e and a is a common mistake. Confusing Kurt Vonnegut and Curt Vonnegut? Nah, that takes gross ignorence and posing. Nah, I'm just throwing that in 'cause there's an Anal Cunt song about Hitler playing in the background. Yes, and obscenity laws have always been vauge and subject to challenge. Dworkin/Mckinnon proposed a different set of standards. Personally, they seem sensible. Society imposes it's values through force or thought control. Your ilk impose anti-racism, Andrea's would impose sexual decency. It has so little to do with liberty, really, and yet you've been so socialized to associate sexual license with liberty that you can't help but getting all hysterical at the thought of someone removing the more vile portions of your wank materials. Again, I don't justify Andrea. She had a dewy eyed view of humans and issues with men. Her politics were as irrational as they were visionary, and yet I can't help admiring the vigor with which she could propound them! For that matter, having issues with males and thinking that rape is a bad thing does not translate into hating males as a whole. Anyways, I'm done.
Ignorence? Right. Very good. Sorry, is that another error. Did you mean to type "Anyways, I'm dumb"? You really are a rude bastard. I am debating whether its worth the effort to engage you in debate. Probably not. Wrong and polite I can live with; wrong, rude and ridiculous is a shade too far. [By the way is this spelt correctly? chronosynclastic infundibulum ]
Pornography and rape have a common origin: the politicization of women. So, fuck pornography... and fuck feminism! We need an apolitical, collaborative not factionalist solution. (IMHO)
Ophiolite: What? I'm going to toss a coin on what is more faggish - you addressing this under a different username or you trying to dredge it back up. Anyways of course things were misspelled, I was drunk and tired. Nor does saying "I read a Playboy sidebar once, Andrea Dworkin was fat and mean" constitute "engaging a debate". It constitutes "acting like the scatterbrained jewish fratboy that I am" Well, considering that rape has existed before there were women or politics as such, it does not make sense to say that it was caused by women's lib. By the way, you misspelled something. You've lost all credibility, you heathen dog.
Nah, this thread is dead. Xev killed it. For her Sci evidently exist to sharpen her flaming skills. Hey Xev, go run down the D cells in your "Big Black Mamba" vibrator.
Wow, how's that for a lack of irony - you accuse me of destroying a thread (itself based on superficialities) through "flaming" and then add a hackneyed reference to masturbation. Typical, you vapid cunt. First attack someone you've never read, based on a sidebar in a magazine not meant to be read, posture with references to Curt Vonnegut and when pressed for any sort of argument at all, retreat to "the first amendment!" After all, you have a right to do as you please. You don't owe anything to anyone, and if the attempt to maintain a bit of hygiene encroaches on your precious wank material, so much the worse for hygiene! What a bore it would be to think about things on a fundamental level. That's what Andrea did. Did she strike jarring notes? Sure. But she played some damn fine chords, above that she actually did something rather than sit on her ass thinking that she was important because she read Playboy sidebars about Curt Vonnegut. Does that resound for you? What Andrea wanted was: "at base was a dream of a sexual and social empathy that negated the strictures of gender, a dream of sexual equality based on what men and women had in common, what the adults tried to kill in you as they made you grow up." But translate that into positive action and what does some goofball male-liberal, some pseudo-woman who wants sensitive sensibilities and his porn, too, what does such a bastard see it as? Why...hysteria. And he's "unimpressed" by such things, as if the unimpression of a worthless life really matters. You want an actual rebuttel? Post something with substance, cocksucker.
Well, perhaps I should be more specific. I see in politics what Thomas Pynchon sees in "pornographies of flight": a detachment of numerical significance from reality. And thus, is there much of a difference between porn and feminism? Send 'em both to hell.
