What is interesting is the increasing weakness of the United States worldwide against the EU, Russia, and China. For instance on Iran the Chinese and the Russians are protecting Iran at the UN SC, with Syria the Europeans are dealing in Free Trade agreements while the US is trying to impose pointless sanctions against Syria. On Cuba the US sanctions are being circumvented by huge Chinese investments, EU and Canadian tourists. But the biggest show of American weakness is the EU selling arms to China, and lifting of the arms embargo. What is happening is a telling tale of American weakness, and the rise of China, and the EU on the international scene. For China, Latin America has become the sole biggest region for Chinese FDI all this under the nose of the United States who has largely ignored the continent over the past 5 years, having just arrived from South America there is Sino-fever. Hugo Chavez the socialist leader of Venezuela has become increasingly bellicose, and is being supported by the Chinese by huge investments in Venezuela’s oil reserves. Russia as well has been making inroads in South America, most tellingly in Brazil, and Venezuela. For Iran China has been a God send here is a excellent article from a excellent source:

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=272&language_id=1

And it seems China and Iran would be connected by rail even:

http://southasia.net/modules.php?name=AvantGo&file=print&sid=233

Russia has vested interests in Iran as well with Iranians having lots of money to buy lots of Russian war toys, Russia has supplied Iran with extremely good and effective S-300 SAMS, to IRBM technology and the biggest gift of all of course the Bushrer nuclear facility. Both Russia and China have said they would not allow the Iranian situation to be tabled at the UN SC, or passed. What is termed the “Arab façade” is breaking down for the United States, and the cops on the beat are increasingly unstable. For Syria the Russians are going to give her advanced SAM systems, and although there were reports of a sale of IRBM’s to Syria with manoeuvrable warheads, supposedly that was not on the table. Erstwhile the EU is increasing their co-operation with Syria over trade, in total disregard for the US and her “sanctions”.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/10/news/letter.html

But the biggest shift in international politics since the Cold War imo is the EU lifting sanctions against the Chinese on military hardware. The importance of this cannot be understated; with advanced European weaponry the Chinese cannot only seriously threaten Taiwan, but the United States herself. The EU is now the Chinese biggest trade, investment, and now seemingly military partner.

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3689977

Another telling sign of American weakness is the fact that North Korea was able to declare itself a nuclear power and nothing substantive being done about it. The fact that the US response has been less then productive has really showed how out of whack not only US policy is, but how out of whack American priorities are. While the US is increasingly focusing attention on Iraq, and this so called “war on terror” the world is moving on and encircling it, and with the world now literally holding the US in its hands, the US will become dependent, not a leader in the world.

All this is saying is that the European Union has emerged as the Worlds premier economic power and as for China its market reliance on the US economy is switching to the much larger EU consumer market . Another telling clue as to Chinas economic and military impotence is the EU arm sales to that nation and Russia does not bat an eyelid . It shows you very clearly that Japan still is and always was the Asian economic giant to be reckoned with .

All this is saying is that the European Union has emerged as the Worlds premier economic power and as for China its market reliance on the US economy is switching to the much larger EU consumer market.

The EU as a single market still lags behind the US in terms of imports:

2003:
US imports: 1.260,000,000,000
EU imports: 1,082,354,000,000

That is the entire EU, all 400 odd million people. China’s composition of its exports in 2003 was 22% to the US, and 18% to the EU, but I think in 2004 the EU may have passed the US. What else is very important to remember is that much of China’s imports are raw materials which are ALWAYS cheaper then value added goods (by definition) and China is the world’s factory. The competition here is btwn the US and the EU to get a larger share of China’s market and the EU is winning in that regard:

% of Chinese imports:

2001:
EU: 15
US: 12

2003:
EU: 13
US: 9

The gap is widening btwn the two, and the US is being left behind not being able to exploit the Chinese market as effectively as the Europeans, also lets face it the US is exporting relatively less manufactured goods, so what can the US export to China that China already doesn’t make? Or Europe could offer?

The gap is widening btwn the two, and the US is being left behind not being able to exploit the Chinese market as effectively as the Europeans, also lets face it the US is exporting relatively less manufactured goods, so what can the US export to China that China already doesn’t make? Or Europe could offer?

I keep telling you over and over again that Chinese exports to America consist simply of US products that American manufacturers have out sourced to Chinese factories . Just like Nike does in Indonesia all those shoes manufactured by Indonesian owned factories are work outsourced by Nike and those that are sent to the USA are counted as Indonesian exports . If you were to look at Chinese figures for exports at least 90% of those exports would be of products out sourced by overseas companies . Where you get this idea China is some Economic superpower is beyond me .

I keep telling you over and over again that Chinese exports to America consist simply of US products that American manufacturers have out sourced to Chinese factories .

Do you honestly believe I don’t know that? I am fully aware of this, but the thing is that although it may be good for the US corporation its bad for the US as a country as evidenced by her Current Account deficit, remember you seem to believe that US corporations are nationalist one’s I have no such illusions. If you agree with me that the CAD is a bad thing for the US, then your argument would be fallacious at best. Chinese workers are making goods, Chinese workers are subsidizing American consumption by forgoing their own, and most US corporations in China want to exploit the Chinese market more then export to the US. The US is merely transferring its wealth to China, laying the groundwork for a much larger economy. US corp. are going to China to have an advantage in that market.

If you were to look at Chinese figures for exports at least 90% of those exports would be of products out sourced by overseas companies . Where you get this idea China is some Economic superpower is beyond me .

90% is a stretch but surely a lot, and that is exactly why China is an economic superpower. Remember the more and more and more FDI flows into China, the more and more dependant the US will become on China. Firstly how isn’t China economic superpower, explain I’ll be waiting…

Do you honestly believe I don’t know that?
You dont seem to grasp that America has since 1981 switched from a manufacturing based economy to a financial freemarket based economy .
The US is merely transferring its wealth to China, laying the groundwork for a much larger economy. US corp. are going to China to have an advantage in that market.
Its the reverse ! China is just Mexico part 2 ! You dont understand those manufactured goods are made at a fraction of the labour cost of the US and Chinese manufactures are left with the hugely expensive cost of waste disposal . Thats why the company I work for has 50% of our goods manufactured in China we make a killing at Chinas expence .
Firstly how isn’t China economic superpower, explain I’ll be waiting…
For Petes sake I have already told you that before ! Italy with a population of 60 million has a GNP larger than Chinas which has a population of 1300 million ! And dont give me those voodoo economic figures to prove elsewise ! China floats on a sea of debt owed to Western finance .
China's foreign debt increases
China National Foreign Exchange Administering Bureau said that since last year, Mainland China’s foreign debt peaked at 193.6 billion and 34 million U.S. dollars, an increase of 13 percent compared to last year.
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2038.html
Have you heard of The Three Gorges Dam Project ? Thats costing China $25 billion coutesy of western finance
Three Gorges Dam, Yangtze River, China
The export credit agencies of Switzerland, France, Germany and Canada are supporting the project. U.S. investment banks, including Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, Salomon Smith Barney of Citigroup, Chase Manhattan, and Merrill Lynch have financed the dam through the underwriting of China Development Bank (CDB) bonds, a government run development bank that funds infrastructure construction. Approximately 65% of the Three Gorges Dam construction costs are financed by the CDB. Goldman Sachs & Co and CS First Boston are also involved. Their $1 billion PRC general obligation bond offering at the end of 1998 reportedly funneled $200 million to the dam.
http://www.irn.org/wcd/index.asp?id=/wcd/threegorges.shtml
All the west has to do is stop the line of credit and that country tumbles into the abyss just like the South East Asian tiger economy crash of 1997 . But here is the answer as to why China is dumping US dollars for the Euro , China's foreign exchange reserves stand at 230 billion US $ it is on the back of those US $ that allows China to borrow from financial institutions . With the rapidly collapsing US $ China knows if she cant buy enough Euros her economy is going to be bottomed out !

You dont seem to grasp that America has since 1981 switched from a manufacturing based economy to a financial freemarket based economy .

I am sure I grasp it more fully then you do Brain, sorry to say. But that is not an argument it’s a basis of fact.

Its the reverse ! China is just Mexico part 2 ! You dont understand those manufactured goods are made at a fraction of the labour cost of the US and Chinese manufactures are left with the hugely expensive cost of waste disposal . Thats why the company I work for has 50% of our goods manufactured in China we make a killing at Chinas expence .

Not really because the Chinese market shouldn’t then be growing at the rates it is, the TNC’s realize that the Western economy has reached its economic heights, and now that populations will be declining they need new markets to exploit, simple capitalist doctrine from Adam Smith states that for the division of labour to be successful markets always have to be expanded. Unlike Mexico the TNC’s are trying to create a affluent Chinese economy so they can buy their goods. Again most investment in China is not for trade but for development of the domestic economy. Secondly I don’t see how China is paying for this, 400 million people have been lifted out of poverty, and the economy has grown 35x since Mao’s death. The expense is not being paid by the Chinese people, they are getting rich. The American people are not, look at wage levels for the re-hired, look at the amount of labour that is unproductive in the United States, etc.

For Petes sake I have already told you that before ! Italy with a population of 60 million has a GNP larger than Chinas which has a population of 1300 million !

Bull Shit, that is taking into consideration HIGHLY inaccurate Real GDP calculations, using that calculation if the Italian Real GDP growth rate is -2% but the Euro went up 4% then Italian GDP would have actually grown. You want to see much MORE accurate figures look at PPP figures please:

GDP PPP 2003:

United States: 10,990,000,000,000
European Union: 11,005,000,000,000
China: 6,449,000,000,000

Smaller then Italy? I think not.

Have you heard of The Three Gorges Dam Project ? Thats costing China $25 billion coutesy of western finance

It doesn’t matter because China is the United States biggest creditor nation, what do you think $600 billion worth of FOREX means? China is a net creditor nation to by knowledge.

All the west has to do is stop the line of credit and that country tumbles into the abyss just like the South East Asian tiger economy crash of 1997 .

Not really, because the West is increasingly dependant on China buying her bonds and treasury bills if the West did that the Chinese would demand their bills back and the US wouldn’t be able to pay and the economy would collapse. Not going to happen, welcome to 2005.

China's foreign exchange reserves stand at 230 billion US $ it is on the back of those US $ that allows China to borrow from financial institutions .

Try in excess of $600 billion…those are 2000 figures, get with the program.

Smaller then Italy? I think not.

Italy : Exports $241.1 billion Imports $231.4
China: Exports $232.0 billion Imports $197.0 billion
http://www.mapzones.com/home.php

Are you getting it ?

Not really, because the West is increasingly dependant on China buying her bonds and treasury bills if the West did that the Chinese would demand their bills back and the US wouldn’t be able to pay and the economy would collapse. Not going to happen, welcome to 2005.
Japan is the bigger purchaser of US treasury bonds by far and it is those nations which are more reliant on US tarde that purchase it a sign of vulnerability .
The four top Asian central banks alone had to buy $300 billion in 2003, and were holding $1.5 trillion by end January 2004: Japan $741 billion, China $403 billion, Taiwan $207 billion, and South Korea $157 billion. This is double the amount the top four had just two years ago, and it will double again sooner. Figure 1 shows, as an example, the almost logarithmic rate of rise of Japan's dollar reserves.http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3107asia_dollar.html

As long as mideastern oil is traded in US $ then nations must purchase the US $ to purchase that commodity ! In other words it is an interest free loan for the US economy ! thats why America is at current tearing up the middle East trying to prevent the inevitable switch from the $ to the Euro . And China being the weak reliant economy is doing what at the moment ?
India, China and other countries start dumping US dollar and buy Euro
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11-27-04.asp

get with the program.

I think you better pull your head out of your Ass too see daylight and smell fresh air mate .

Italy : Exports $241.1 billion Imports $231.4
China: Exports $232.0 billion Imports $197.0 billion
http://www.mapzones.com/home.php

What year is that from 1999? Lol honestly now let’s look at 2004 figures:

China exports 2004: $529.3 billion
Italy 2003: $289 billion

Also the Italian figures are misleading because much of it goes to EU states, so really it’s MUCH smaller then that. China’s exports in 2004 were half that of the entire EU, and larger then Japan’s. China is now the world’s third largest exporter, the US being #1, Germany #2, and China #3. Brian sorry to sound arrogant but it comes to stats…I will far surpass anyone here. Also China’s exports have doubled in only 5 years, impressive?

Japan is the bigger purchaser of US treasury bonds by far and it is those nations which are more reliant on US tarde that purchase it a sign of vulnerability .

Japan is not the biggest purchaser, the Chinese are. IMF report I read stated that the biggest creditor to the United States is China with $165 billion worth of US bonds, and has surely gone up, also the growth in China much higher then in Japan so the increasing relevance of China will far surpass Japan if it already hasn’t.

As long as mideastern oil is traded in US $ then nations must purchase the US $ to purchase that commodity ! In other words it is an interest free loan for the US economy ! thats why America is at current tearing up the middle East trying to prevent the inevitable switch from the $ to the Euro . And China being the weak reliant economy is doing what at the moment ?

The US actions in the Middle East is not about currency politics, its about geo-politics the Chinese and the Europeans were starting to gobble up valuable interests in the Middle East, as evidenced by Chinese investments in Iran, by the fact that Saudi Arabia’s exports of oil to the US is decreasing but to China increasing, (read the article I presented it destroys quite well your pretentious arguments).

I think you better pull your head out of your Ass too see daylight and smell fresh air mate .

Oh Brian insulting me, only shows how right I am.

Fuck I give up ! I think I owe karma an apology ...........

A valiant effort...kudos..just calm down on the insults it doesn't bode well for you.

Sorry but I had too:

Italy 2003:

Exports: 307,959,000,000
Exports to EU25: 174,168,000,000
Net Exports: 133,791,000,000

Italy’s closest comparison in real exports would be Russia:

Russia exports 2003: 134,377,000,000

But to fair I will subtract from Chinese export figures exports to the EU25 to get a real comparison btwn the two:

China exports 2003: 437,899,000,000
China exports to EU25: 78,473,000,000
Net Chinese exports: 359,426,000,000

Smaller then Italy?

So you are applauding them on living almost totally without luxury?

They are doing that so you can...also millions of Chinese are living the good life don't fool yourself. There are billionaires in China now, and incomes are raising for everyone in the country, even the rural areas. What is my big worry is the increasingly large gap btwn rich and poor, and rural and urban. Let's just say the Chinese people are not suffering. Also let's not go on this tangent because it has nothing to do with the increasing weakness of the United States vis-a-vis China, and the EU.

OK one last time Einstein ! Lets see if you can make the connections !
Understanding the US-China Balance of Trade
According to a 1999 Institute for International Economics study, 90 percent of US imports from China are substitutes for US imports from other low-wage economies, largely in East and Southeast Asia.
http://www.uschina.org/statistics/2004balanceoftrade.html
You see 90% of Chinas exports to America are simply Re-Exports ! US manufacturers are out sourcing to the cheap labour zone in China !
An analysis of U.S.-China trade and FDI data shows that: The rapidly growing U.S. trade deficit with China is directly linked to the growth of multinational firms operating in China. Of China's more than $200 billion in exports in 1998, over 40% had their source in multinational firms operating in China (Ministry of Foreign Trade and Economic Cooperation 2000).
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_fdi_fdi
See the magic words "over 40%" ......... So you can automatically deduct 40+% from your export figures
II.Statistical Difference in Sino-US Trade Balance
http://www.chinagate.com.cn/english/1439.htm
Then their is Chinas foreign debt which is snowballing
Foreign debt snowballed in 2004
The People's Bank of China, the country's central bank, said that outstanding foreign debt stood at US$228.6 billion at the end of last year, up 18.1 percent from a year earlier.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/25/content_419522.htm
And remember it has to be paid off and the interest payments are going to the West ! Now are you getting it ? China is an economic colony of the affluent West thats why Italy is a memeber of the G8 and not China ! Now do you get it or do I have to type it in braille and stick it in your Ass ?

And as for the US in the mideast its an imperial clash between the US and the EU !
The Real Reasons Why Iran is the Next Target: The Emerging Euro-denominated International Oil Market
The Iranians are about to commit an "offense" far greater than Saddam Hussein's conversion to the euro of Iraq’s oil exports in the fall of 2000. Numerous articles have revealed Pentagon planning for operations against Iran as early as 2005. While the publicly stated reasons will be over Iran's nuclear ambitions, there are unspoken macroeconomic drivers explaining the Real Reasons regarding the 2nd stage of petrodollar warfare - Iran's upcoming euro-based oil Bourse.
http://100777.com/node/1196

So you are applauding them on living almost totally without luxury?
Dont bother mate , he has some fantasy that China is a economic dynamo on the verge of World domination let him run with it .

Then why is Goldman Sachs predicting that by 2050 the Chinese economy will at around $44 trillion, and GDP per capita of $31,000+ mate? This obviously shows that China is not some shit picker as you would like it to be, China’s growth now is moving ahead rather well. Firstly the US economy is dependant on China and that’s why its strong. You see what you are showing me isn’t the weakness of the Chinese economy but rather the weakness of the US economy.

Firstly: If the US economy was so good to invest profits in why aren’t they doing it? China is getting the profits that she makes for these companies in FDI, so really these TNC’s are becoming an extension of the Chinese economy.

Secondly: Let’s do a scenario, let’s say China shuts its borders due to some disease, and it remains shut for a year, the international economy would collapse why? 1) The Chinese make cheap goods for the American consumer, and the one of the reasons why American’s aren’t as poor as they could be is because China is taming US inflation through its goods going to Wal-Mart which brings down prices and wages. 2) China would have to expend its FOREX reserves, and would call on its US Treasury Bills to pay for services that cannot pay for themselves, that means the flows of money to the US stop, who Brian is going to pay that $2.5 billion a day loan to the US? If the US cannot get finance to prop up its economy, it would collapse (Argentina syndrome) 3) Those same corporations you are talking about would go belly up, and a international depression would ensue. Since these companies have put so much of their production chains in China, closing of the Chinese market would mean their $600 billion worth of investments are rendered useless, and they cannot get the products out of the country so how are they going to make anything, or sell anything?

If you can provide the answers to this Brian I will be impressed, but what you’ve done is only show me how power China’s economy really is. China is like a nurse; yes you’re the patient but without the nurse ur a dead fellow, or at least a VERY uncomfortable one.

Firstly: If the US economy was so good to invest profits in why aren’t they doing it?
America is you ignoramus , do you thisnk America companies are that stupid to just give their money away ? The money US companies save in manufacturing expences gets passed on to the US consumer and manufacturing tax incentives made out of China saves them a bundle of money . And outsourcing their work to Chinese factories puts disposal of dirty and poisonous industrial waste on Chinese hands and believe waste disposal in our affluent west is a very costly business .
China is getting the profits that she makes for these companies in FDI, so really these TNC’s are becoming an extension of the Chinese economy.
Because China is a corrupt third world nation with unbelievably cheap labour and incredibly lax environmental laws that actively entice US/Euro corporations .
Secondly: Let’s do a scenario, let’s say China shuts its borders due to some disease, and it remains shut for a year, the international economy would collapse why?
The Chinese economy is a lay by economy , just like the South East Asian Tiger economies prior the 1997 economic meltdown . If China shut down for a year American and European business would move elsewhere like to India , that other 1.2 billion cheap labour pool and investment .
1) The Chinese make cheap goods for the American consumer, and the one of the reasons why American’s aren’t as poor as they could be is because China is taming US inflation through its goods going to Wal-Mart which brings down prices and wages.
It was by American choice to go to China to exploit Chinas cheap labour and lax environmental laws . Very easily those same American TNC’s could move to India to exploit that nations even cheaper labour and even more lax environmental laws . Brazil is another region US TNC’s could move to no problem as well to produce those cheap goods its as simple as that .
2) China would have to expend its FOREX reserves, and would call on its US Treasury Bills to pay for services that cannot pay for themselves, that means the flows of money to the US stop, who Brian is going to pay that $2.5 billion a day loan to the US? If the US cannot get finance to prop up its economy, it would collapse (Argentina syndrome)
No problem ! Dollar-based global oil trade now gives the United States carte blanche to print dollars without sparking inflation , to fund huge expenses on wars, military build-ups, and consumer spending, as well as cut taxes and run up huge trade deficits. Almost 2/3s of the world's currency reserves are kept in dollars more than 4/5 of all currency transactions, more than half of the world's exports, and all loans from the IMF are denominated in dollars. As these things create demand for the dollar and shore up its value, oil exporters are the more willing to accept payment in dollars . Since oil importers pay in dollars and oil exporters keep their reserves in the currency they are paid in. This effectively provides the U.S. economy with an interest-free loan, as these dollars can be invested back into the U.S. economy with zero currency risk . I hardly think China defaulting on its loans to America would send it belly up .
3) Those same corporations you are talking about would go belly up, and a international depression would ensue. Since these companies have put so much of their production chains in China, closing of the Chinese market would mean their $600 billion worth of investments are rendered useless, and they cannot get the products out of the country so how are they going to make anything, or sell anything?
The Chinese own the factories that produce US goods to be re-exported back to America so there is no risk , in other words America business interests can up and leave at a moments notice . All American corporations have to do is simply overnight place orders for production with Indonesian manufacturers or beef up production at its already established Mexican plants . And as always there is the Indian option this is the 21st century events now happen overnight .

Russia has supplied Iran with extremely good and effective S-300 SAMSlol
Another telling sign of American weakness is the fact that North Korea was able to declare itself a nuclear power and nothing substantive being done about it.I know you guys were probably expecting (hoping?) their declaration would be the catalyst of a vast and sweeping paradigm shift in American foreign policy, but has it ever crossed your mind that maybe we just don't care what they claim?

lol

Its better then the Patriot stokes, so are we going to need diapers when we are talking about Patriot sales to Taiwan?

I know you guys were probably expecting (hoping?) their declaration would be the catalyst of a vast and sweeping paradigm shift in American foreign policy, but has it ever crossed your mind that maybe we just don't care what they claim?

It has and its ludicrious to believe that, the reason why is if the United States didn't care why is the US talking to North Korea, and why is the US now getting all hot and bothered about NK negotiations, and trying to blockade the country? The problem stokes is that the US can't do anything that's why the US is getting increasingly weak.

lol
I know you guys were probably expecting (hoping?) their declaration would be the catalyst of a vast and sweeping paradigm shift in American foreign policy, but has it ever crossed your mind that maybe we just don't care what they claim?
not me I quite understand Americas power military or economic , I said it before here at present in this world there is only one war being fought and that is the imperial conflict between the capitalist/freemarket rivals of the EU and America . Undecided somehow thinks China is some immense economic/military threat to America Iargue elsewise , I mean which nation militarily encircles which ?. America would overnight operating from Air bases in South Korea would turn North Korea into a car parking lot . Iran is the nation America is concentrating on because Iran is nation of which much wealth for America hinges on . Americas shock and awe would turn Iran into another downtown LA car parking lot .

Undecided somehow thinks China is some immense economic/military threat to America Iargue elsewise

Well Brian I asked you to prove me wrong, unless you can I suggest you be quiet, I gave u a thought experiment and I am SURE you can totally destroy it ASAP...if not again be quiet and stop pretending to know what you are talking about ok?


I mean which nation militarily encircles which ?. America would overnight operating from Air bases in South Korea would turn North Korea into a car parking lot .

By the same token NK forces can destroy the entire US presence in NK in 30 minutes, even according to US forces in the region. And all the US can do in a NK war would be aerial attacks, because 600,000 men aren't available for the US military, and it would take months, by that time the war would be over. See this what you think "Amerika strong RARARA!!" I think, yes America is strong but it has its limitations.

Iran is the nation America is concentrating on because Iran is nation of which much wealth for America hinges on . Americas shock and awe would turn Iran into another downtown LA car parking lot .

And alternatively Iran could attack Israel's nuclear facilities very accurately with their Shahab-3B missile, and Iran can accurately attack US forces in the Persian Gulf, and US ships in the Gulf with Chinese supplied C-802's, and US aircraft with the S-300 SAM system, now the US would of course win in that war but I suspect it won't be peaches and cream...let's say.

Well Brian I asked you to prove me wrong,
I have ! Whats the big deal ? I kicked your ass deal with it !
unless you can I suggest you be quiet, I gave u a thought experiment and I am SURE you can totally destroy it ASAP...
Im sorry did you miss my reply to your questions on page 1 of this thread yesterday ? If you have I will repost them . I mean you wouldnt be ignoring them now would you ? ;)
Firstly: If the US economy was so good to invest profits in why aren’t they doing it?
America is you ignoramus , do you thisnk America companies are that stupid to just give their money away ? The money US companies save in manufacturing expences gets passed on to the US consumer and manufacturing tax incentives made out of China saves them a bundle of money . And outsourcing their work to Chinese factories puts disposal of dirty and poisonous industrial waste on Chinese hands and believe waste disposal in our affluent west is a very costly business .
China is getting the profits that she makes for these companies in FDI, so really these TNC’s are becoming an extension of the Chinese economy.
Because China is a corrupt third world nation with unbelievably cheap labour and incredibly lax environmental laws that actively entice US/Euro corporations .
Secondly: Let’s do a scenario, let’s say China shuts its borders due to some disease, and it remains shut for a year, the international economy would collapse why?
The Chinese economy is a lay by economy , just like the South East Asian Tiger economies prior the 1997 economic meltdown . If China shut down for a year American and European business would move elsewhere like to India , that other 1.2 billion cheap labour pool and investment .
1) The Chinese make cheap goods for the American consumer, and the one of the reasons why American’s aren’t as poor as they could be is because China is taming US inflation through its goods going to Wal-Mart which brings down prices and wages.
It was by American choice to go to China to exploit Chinas cheap labour and lax environmental laws . Very easily those same American TNC’s could move to India to exploit that nations even cheaper labour and even more lax environmental laws . Brazil is another region US TNC’s could move to no problem as well to produce those cheap goods its as simple as that .
2) China would have to expend its FOREX reserves, and would call on its US Treasury Bills to pay for services that cannot pay for themselves, that means the flows of money to the US stop, who Brian is going to pay that $2.5 billion a day loan to the US? If the US cannot get finance to prop up its economy, it would collapse (Argentina syndrome)
No problem ! Dollar-based global oil trade now gives the United States carte blanche to print dollars without sparking inflation , to fund huge expenses on wars, military build-ups, and consumer spending, as well as cut taxes and run up huge trade deficits. Almost 2/3s of the world's currency reserves are kept in dollars more than 4/5 of all currency transactions, more than half of the world's exports, and all loans from the IMF are denominated in dollars. As these things create demand for the dollar and shore up its value, oil exporters are the more willing to accept payment in dollars . Since oil importers pay in dollars and oil exporters keep their reserves in the currency they are paid in. This effectively provides the U.S. economy with an interest-free loan, as these dollars can be invested back into the U.S. economy with zero currency risk . I hardly think China defaulting on its loans to America would send it belly up .
3) Those same corporations you are talking about would go belly up, and a international depression would ensue. Since these companies have put so much of their production chains in China, closing of the Chinese market would mean their $600 billion worth of investments are rendered useless, and they cannot get the products out of the country so how are they going to make anything, or sell anything?
The Chinese own the factories that produce US goods to be re-exported back to America so there is no risk , in other words America business interests can up and leave at a moments notice . All American corporations have to do is simply overnight place orders for production with Indonesian manufacturers or beef up production at its already established Mexican plants . And as always there is the Indian option this is the 21st century events now happen overnight .
if not again be quiet and stop pretending to know what you are talking about ok?
Yep , just goes to show 12 years of schooling just aint enough ....................

Its better then the Patriot stokes, so are we going to need diapers when we are talking about Patriot sales to Taiwan? Explain please. In your own words, of course.

It has and its ludicrious to believe that, the reason why is if the United States didn't care why is the US talking to North Korea, and why is the US now getting all hot and bothered about NK negotiations, and trying to blockade the country? The problem stokes is that the US can't do anything that's why the US is getting increasingly weak.
So if the United States still commanded this strength you are insisting it lost, what would be the salient differences in its foreign policy with respects to disarmament and continued containment (or an alternative?) of North Korea?

America is you ignoramus

Brian if your going to insult make you don’t insult your own intelligence along the way…may I ask you what the hell you are attempting to say here?

do you thisnk America companies are that stupid to just give their money away ?

Firstly I think you are illiterate, as you said at the bottom of another post:

Yep , just goes to show 12 years of schooling just aint enough ....................

Said your mother…because I cannot understand what you are saying. Secondly what I “thisnk” is that American companies aren’t throwing their money away what they are doing is investing in China to develop the Chinese market to build their brands in China and to suppress local Chinese business. The fact that China is exporting much from her TNC’s is basically a transference of wealth to China from the United States, as shown by the level of FDI coming in which by definition is either siphoned off from profits, or loans so obviously the TNC’s are stupid according to your argumentations.

The money US companies save in manufacturingexpences gets passed on to the US consumer and manufacturing tax incentives made out of China saves them a bundle of money . And outsourcing their work to Chinese factories puts disposal of dirty and poisonous industrial waste on Chinese hands and believe waste disposal in our affluent west is a very costly business .

I don’t see the argument here, how is this proving to anyone that China isn’t becoming a world economic power? That’s industrialization it’s dirty, it always starts with low wages, and it always is dependant on trade. How do you think England became an industrial country? Or the United States? The list goes on, every country on the road to industrialization offers low wages, a large surplus population, and usually agricultural self-sufficiency, and China has all that. As the world economy got progressively larger, as did the major industrializing states. When the world economy was small the British were big enough to industrialize, and now that the world economy is HUGE it takes a HUGE country to do that job and China is doing that. So apart from insulting me, you have nothing.

Because China is a corrupt third world nation with unbelievably cheap labour and incredibly lax environmental laws that actively entice US/Euro corporations .

For whatever reason it maybe you didn’t deny it, and I proved my point. So where is your argument? Oh I know insulting me, not arguing positions. Incredibly cheap labour has always been the driving force behind industrial development, and corruption to an extent as well when the US was industrializing in the late 1800’s it was uber-corrupt.

The Chinese economy is a lay by economy , just like the South East Asian Tiger economies prior the 1997 economic meltdown . If China shut down for a year American and European business would move elsewhere like to India , that other 1.2 billion cheap labour pool and investment .

The problem is that they can’t, because they shipped their capital plants to China. If you ever took an economics course (which I have) you would know that Capital can only be changed in the long run, the only things these companies can do is pull out the money out of China, but the actual production facilities would be in China and would not be able to leave. Thus these companies would not have massive parts of their production producing, and since the capital cannot move these companies would go belly up. Wal-Mart surely would, it is the world’s 5 importer of Chinese goods, and Wal-Mart has made it almost mandatory for a company to invest in China. America would go into an inflation spiral due to the lack of supply of goods, and with the already huge deficits and the price of oil going up and not coming down anytime soon, and most importantly the Chinese are buying up excess American dollars, if no one is buying that money the money supply would go up and the US dollar would collapse. America would suffer greatly, because China is America’s inflationary warrior.

It was by American choice to go to China to exploit Chinas cheap labour and lax environmental laws . Very easily those same American TNC’s could move to India to exploit that nations even cheaper labour and even more lax environmental laws .

As I showed it cannot, take basic economics you would know this.

Brazil is another region US TNC’s could move to no problem as well to produce those cheap goods its as simple as that .

Brazil’s labour costs compared to China is very high…

No problem ! Dollar-based global oil trade now gives the United States carte blanche to print dollars without sparking inflation , to fund huge expenses on wars, military build-ups, and consumer spending, as well as cut taxes and run up huge trade deficits.

That wasn’t true in the late 60’s early 70’s when America’s grip on oil was even greater then it is now. The US should be in inflationary gaps, but it isn’t due to the depression of American wages due to competition from China, and the cheap goods from China. If China is closed the US would face shortages, and thus prices would spiral upwards.

Almost 2/3s of the world's currency reserves are kept in dollars more than 4/5 of all currency transactions, more than half of the world's exports, and all loans from the IMF are denominated in dollars.

Which isn’t good…if u didn’t know.

As these things create demand for the dollar and shore up its value, oil exporters are the more willing to accept payment in dollars .

Then why is the US dollar sliding further and further? Seems to go against the grain, the US having a currency appreciation is the worst thing for the US right now because it would mean the US would be importing more then it could ever really afford:

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3732459

Read this…please.

I hardly think China defaulting on its loans to America would send it belly up .

What would is this:

…large trade deficits can be a problem. They can be a problem because they imply a country has to borrow year after year. And if those who are providing the capital change their minds and stop making loans, the country can be in big trouble- a crisis. (Stigliz 201)

Firstly China is owed more from the US then China owes to the US so it will never default on its loans, the quote I presented to you was from a amazing book called “Globalization and its discontents” by the leader of the Council of economic advisors under the Clinton administration Joseph E. Stiglitz who discussed in great detail the East Crisis of 1997/98, so I hope you know damn well what happened in that crisis because I had to for my class. The quote proves my point to the tee, the US shouldn’t fear so much about paying back the debt because it never will what the US should fear is if the Chinese stop funding the US economy, and the quote says why. Don’t start battle you can’t win Brian.

The Chinese own the factories that produce US goods to be re-exported back to America so there is no risk , in other words America business interests can up and leave at a moments notice .

If I invested $100,000 in a factory (didn’t own it) and didn’t have capital to build the goods myself but depended on the factory to provide the capital to make my goods, and the countries borders close…by definition I would lose $100,000 because the factory would go belly up. So in essence as would $600+ billion worth of western investment, the west put its eggs in one basket and we will pay the consequences as a result…didn’t ur mother ever tell you not to do that?

All American corporations have to do is simply overnight place orders for production with Indonesian manufacturers or beef up production at its already established Mexican plants . And as always there is the Indian option this is the 21st century events now happen overnight .

It won’t happen overnight because those countries as well are becoming dependant on Chinese goods…also how are they going to invest if they aren’t selling anything?

There I raped your argument happy now?

Explain please. In your own words, of course.

What’s there to explain, u tell me you’re the expert? According to all the sources I’ve read it is superior and the S-400 and the S-500 are RAPING the Patriot. Russia has always maintained a lead on the US on missile technology especially SAM’s. What I want to know stokes is why you were “lol”-ing if the S-300 is better then the Patriot? Frankly the weakness of the Patriot system was shown in the fact that you were more likely to be shot down by a Patriot then an Iraqi in the war.

So if the United States still commanded this strength you are insisting it lost, what would be the salient differences in its foreign policy with respects to disarmament and continued containment (or an alternative?) of North Korea?

The difference would be putting more troops in SK not taking them out, supporting US troop levels in East Asia to counter not only NK but the PRC which is challenging American hegemony in the region. The US should be able to talk to NK with strength the US isn’t showing that strength and with Rumsfeld saying US forces are getting out of Korea or moving out of the DMZ it shows NK that the US is getting weaker because the troop movement is a result of the troop stresses due to the dwindling amount of men available in the “war on terror”. Oh now it is estimated that NK has 15 nukes:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050216-dprk-nukes.htm

What’s there to explain, u tell me you’re the expert?Your burden of proof, not mine. But since you admit I'm the expert I assume you'll take my word for it when I say you are wrong, and that the S-300 is a sack of ass with wings. If you would like me to explain something in detail, ask me and I will.

The difference would be putting more troops in SK not taking them out, supporting US troop levels in East Asia to counter not only NK but the PRC which is challenging American hegemony in the region. The US should be able to talk to NK with strength the US isn’t showing that strength and with Rumsfeld saying US forces are getting out of Korea or moving out of the DMZ it shows NK that the US is getting weaker because the troop movement is a result of the troop stresses due to the dwindling amount of men available in the “war on terror”. Oh now it is estimated that NK has 15 nukes:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050216-dprk-nukes.htmI've been over this with you before; the troop drawdown from the UNSK garrison was a long time in coming, initially proposed in the mid-1990s.

Your burden of proof, not mine. But since you admit I'm the expert I assume you'll take my word for it when I say you are wrong, and that the S-300 is a sack of ass with wings. If you would like me to explain something in detail, ask me and I will.

If you want…but one could argue that the Patriot sucks ass too…

I've been over this with you before; the troop drawdown from the UNSK garrison was a long time in coming, initially proposed in the mid-1990s.

But not when NK was known to be developing nukes stokes, those are two different eras. The US is rewarding NK without the US realizing it.

There I raped your argument happy now?
No , you just gave me personal opinions not an argument too counter my answers to your requests .

Now here is a lesson for you , look at the deal China was offered to join the WTO, look at the requirements the West wants . Can you join the dots undecided ?
Impact on China Sectors after WTO Entry
Reuters
September 19, 2000

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/bwi-wto/china/impact.htm
And guess what ? China is beginning to implement those requirements right now .
China Faces Year of Rooster Amid Growing Social Tension
2005.02.08
China's leaders have welcomed the lunar new year with glitzy festivities among the Beijing elite. But millions of ordinary Chinese face the Year of the Rooster with deep anxiety over the basics of existence, according to Chinese officials, experts and ordinary people.

Many face unemployment, non-payment of pensions and wages, and homelessness.

"Some 40 million farmers have lost their land in the country,"

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/2005/02/08/china_newyear/

Your superpower is on the verge of becoming a possession of western Finance !
G A M E O V E R

No , you just gave me personal opinions not an argument too counter my answers to your requests .

Which were supported by facts...and obviously they were so good u couldn't rebut anything I said. Until you do, I won't bother replying to your innate idiocy.

Which were supported by facts...
No they were not , you gave no sources , the only link you gave was for an economist article which was completely and utterly unrelated to the argument . I on the other hand have fully supported my arguments with factual source links .
and obviously they were so good u couldn't rebut anything I said.
You have proven nothing I have answered all of your questions and arguments and you have ended your debate with personal opinions .
Until you do, I won't bother replying to your innate idiocy.
TRANSLATION Im Fucked , I cant back up my bullshit argument so like a coward I will run for cover ...............
C H I C K E N S H I T

All this swearing is this what political debate is turning into???

All this swearing is this what political debate is turning into???
If you follow the line of debate here you will see undecided has twice placed before me questions to which he has challenged me to answer too which I have answered . The first lot of answers I gave him he ignores giving full answers and the second lot of answers I give to his daring he completely ignores ! Its frustrating Odin , it wastes my time and makes me angry .

So you just ignore him as many here already do.

:m: Peace.

:m: Peace.
Maranatha.........

If you want…but one could argue that the Patriot sucks ass too…And I am still waiting for you to try.

But not when NK was known to be developing nukes stokes, those are two different eras. The US is rewarding NK without the US realizing it.How does a drawdown of the UNSK garrison constitute a tangible reward for the PRK?

Also, is this your monthly LOL USA SUX LMAO thread for February, or for March? Or are you going to grace us with more than one per month this winter?

He's on vacation Stokes. But give him a break. He does come up with some interesting stuff. Just a little too excitable.

I think undecided is funny im not ignoring him... I came back in a bad mood and hung over read a psot and laughed off the mood... good for rainy days :)

But brian I get your point, but also notice this... when you make a strong argument the oponent always asks for proof which shows he has some trouble with making an inteligent answer... other than that I agree with both of you on different terms...

And stokes, the S 300 is a good missile plus a few electrical faults... the patriot has almost the same electrical faults and no fail safe system thats why it hits friendly aircraft. the only problem they might have is the radar used to acompany them... if you have a scilent system then its a good setup otherwise it will just get fucked by a smart missile.

And stokes, the S 300 is a good missile plus a few electrical faults... the patriot has almost the same electrical faults and no fail safe system thats why it hits friendly aircraft. the only problem they might have is the radar used to acompany them... if you have a scilent system then its a good setup otherwise it will just get fucked by a smart missile.
Alright, I'll stop beating around the bush and offer up my experience with the S300. We've tried it. It sucks. I will explain.

There is a giant, old, spooky looking hangar filled with spooky looking men at Ft. Bliss in Texas (home of the US Army's Air Defense Artillery Division) called the "Threat Assessment Division". You can probably guess what they do there. Of course, their mission highly classified mainly due to the nature of their acquisitions, but I doubt they had much trouble getting a SAM system that has a goddamn sales webpage (I trust they checked the feedback and/or reseller rating before they bought, though) ;)

We grabbed a bunch, and ran them through their paces. Here is an unclassified general summary: Half the rounds never left the tube, a quarter detonated prematurely or went ballistic, and a quarter got somewhere in the general vicinity of the target (which was a slow moving subsonic BQM-34F Firebee drone). 20% detonated relatively close to the target. None hit to kill. This compared to the PAC-3 Patriot, which can consistently (unclassified HTK rate of 85%) take out a two foot long RV going Mach 3+ at 10,000m ceiling in a HTK - slamming into it without using chemical explosives. Next week I can try to dig up the sanitized AAR's from the opening days of OIF in early 2003, and post them if anybody would like to dispute these facts.

Also, there is a gulf of confusion regarding the Patriot's fratricide accounts. There were two instances of fratricide (one with a downed RAF Tornado and another a F/A-18C) but both incidents were the result of pilot error. The Tornado and the F-18 were both flying outside of established safe transit corridors set up by the air warfare commander to ensure that our own airplanes wouldn't fly "down range" of our own air defense assets. They flew into the "fire zones" of the Patriot batteries. This would not have doomed them had they not committed another egregious operational error. Both aircraft were also not squawking the correct IFF authentication algorithm - a coded response to convince friendly weapon systems that you are, in fact, one of the good guys, so even if you do end up in their sites, you will not be fired upon. Once they crossed into the fire zones, the battery realized something wasn't right, and popped off an IFF interrogation - and got the wrong answer back. Therefore, because the aircraft's altitude, speed, and heading resembled that of a TBM, the Patriot battery, in weapons-free mode (the only way to operate it due to the short timeframes of a TBM engagement being outside of human capacity) prosecuted what it believed to be a hostile target. It was a Mach 5+ Patriot ABM versus a subsonic air breathing aircraft. You can guess who won.

Events such as these have actually always been a very big concern in the development of integrated air defense systems, because their capability makes them necessarily complex to employ effectively. Without a man actively in the loop the potential for friendly fire clusterfucks increases drastically. Airspace battle management is a daunting task and with newer network-centric autonomous systems like the Patriot, there will be problems if people don't triple-check their work. There was also a third blue-on-blue incident involving a F-16, but the F-16 destroyed the Patriot radar with a HARM when its threat receiver indicated that it was about to removed from the sky.

While certainly tragic, none of the aforementioned events were the fault of the Patriot weapon system. In fact, it functioned perfectly. The men in the loop did not.

EDIT: Shit, Undecided is banned. For what it's worth he and I had a brief PM exchange not too long ago, initiated by him, in which we brokered a peace and agreed to engage each other more productively in the future. Despite our usual hypergolic nature I can't say I won't miss him.

No , you just gave me personal opinions not an argument too counter my answers to your requests .

Of course Brian by defeintion I gave u my own personal opinions, if I didn’t I would be saying anything now would I? So apart from that captain obvious, by definition as well opinions are arguments, and I supported my opinions with sources, and easily verifiable economic theory. Sorry but I am not getting an A in economics for no reason, so if you want to talk about legitimacy who is it going to be? Me or you? I have the marks to back me up do you?

Now here is a lesson for you , look at the deal China was offered to join the WTO, look at the requirements the West wants . Can you join the dots undecided ?

Yes I can, those dots are of laughter, do you really think China is doing all that? China isn’t really following those edicts by the WTO, and it was predicted long before in 2000:

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_23/b3684109.htm

The Chinese still have at least 50% of the economy under central government control, and has not gotten rid of the subsidies to farmers, or cut down tariff barriers to the WTO’s liking, China is still a closed economy, and China is still for all intents a purposes a transitional economy. I admit China is adopting the policies that she wants, that’s something that you have to understand, this is going on Chinese terms not WTO’s terms. China is too powerful now of a economic player to push around, look at China’s currency peg for instance which is obviously the most naked defiance of the international financial community. China’s changing on Chinese terms, this isn’t some third world country which has no choice, China doesn’t depend on international capital she has $ 5 trillion in the financial assets, and over $ 600 billion in FOREX, China has net zero public debt, and her reserves are just growing. So nice try Brian but you aren’t fooling anyone, especially not me.

About China’s inequality, I am currently finishing an entire project on that so don’t even try to pretend as if you think you know more then me on that subject, ok. I read at least 3 World Bank reports and now I have to write three essay’s, if you behave better then you have in the past I will share them with you only if you stop acting like you have been acting.

Your superpower is on the verge of becoming a possession of western Finance !
G A M E O V E R

Game over? Maybe, but surely not for me my analysis has stood up the test of professors and Teaching assistants I think it can stand up to you. Frankly my profs. Seem to agree with me…so all of you who seem to be laughing at me, it just shows how ignorant you really are. Good day.

Wow.

What good is your report when China has a full blown revolution and goes up in flames?? How long do you honestly think they can control the Capitalist demon?? Its one thing to work 16 hour days in the field when everyone else does....but when your neighbor starts working only 6 hours and is driving a benz.....well things start to change.

Stokes you never know, maybe you set them up wrong, here is an anicdote about almost the same thing:

A group of american scientists got hold of russian blue prints for a new super sonic fighter . after months of carefull planing they decided to build it.
Every time they built it they got a steam engine locamotive... No one knew wtf was going on ...
So they asked to kidnap a russian scientist on the dvelopment program... they brought him into the warehouse and showed him the prints, When they asked him what he needed to build it he replied: " A bottle of vodka"
The next morning the american scientists came back.. and there stood a super sonic fighter.

You know, I think that the Bush-Doctrine has pulled America down so low it has finally hit that point of no return. The “American” part of the American culture is pretty-much gone and has been replaced with a bizarre mist of fundamental Christian swirling around a big fat Corporate Greenback . . . quite disgusting!

Here we go: case in point:Senate backs Alaska oil drilling (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4355871.stm) Correspondents say there is not much interest among the oil companies in drilling in the refuge, as its economic potential no longer seems promising.

However, some Republicans see the plan as a political maneuver which could open the way for other environmentally controversial projects such as drilling off Florida or California.

Just plain pitiful. But it IS oil, could you expect anything less from this Admin?

AND could you possibly get any more obvious . . . . .
US blocks forest protection plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4351863.stm) But powerful industry lobbyists in the US have resisted moves to certify that timber is legitimately produced. And the leaked State Department memo shows that the US government will refuse to sign up to the Blair initiative. This is just to CERTIFY that the wood is legal! THAT is how low the US has gone. There is no more “American” culture left in the US. It’s just a greed culture.

Ultimately, I believe, it WILL result in our fall from preeminence – to me . . . it's a given.

I give the US 60 to a 100 years tops.

Europe I see as THE rising star. They appear to care about things many people of the world care about. Like not butchering the last of the world’s rain forests. When they see the Himalayans actually melting away they appear to think, hmmm. . .. . maybe we should do something - - whereas the US turns it’s back, rubs it’s oily hands together and at best you may be graced with a look of utter contempt.

Have you ever talked with an American about the UN? The scorn is amazing (and a fine example of how biased the media in the US has become)

Sorry fellow Americans, we’re on the way down, and I’m afraid a painful slide it’ll be.

While I agree with many of your points, Michael, the US government changes every 4 years, and there is still hope yet.
There...is..another...

While I agree with many of your points, Michael, the US government changes every 4 years, and there is still hope yet.
There...is..another...Maybe, and I hope so, but I feel that the things that made America great can not be sustained in the new Corporate America we have today.

Countries go through cycles.

You know that saying: ‘the first generation makes it, the second takes it and the third breaks it’? I think this is how countries are as well. Metaphorically I’d say we’re in the middle of a second generation. As such, the things that motivate us are much different than those that motivated our forefathers.

You know what? I’ve heard educated Americans (ie: Masters in Chemistry etc. . .) distain Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson!?! I almost couldn’t believe my ears. So I step back (and I mean way back . . . I live in another country :) and I look and what I see looks like it’s just starting to rot.

Maybe America will buck history and continue to rise ad infinitum?
Or maybe we’re happily marching along towards a precipice?

I personally think we’re happily marching along a downward gradient, one we wouldn’t even call a slope; and perhaps a few generations from now Americans will call this time the Golden Era and wondered how we let it go . . . . and what happened to all those freedoms we used to enjoy?

[Remember the guy in NY that was arrested for wearing a T-shint in a mall (he bought it at the mall) that said 'NO War'? What about Scott Ridder? How was he made out in America? A patriot or a traitor?]

I know it’s a slippery slope and so I’ll say ‘who knows?’, But, I’m getting the feeling it’s going down not up.

[[I]are [/B] a poor country. But what motives a Chinaman is presently very different than what motivates an American. In 30 years they’ll either be a democracy or have had yet another revolution in a long line of revolutions. My guess is democracy (IMO).

What do Chinese people think when they see their neighbor driving a BMW while they still walk? Well, what do most of us think? "I Better try and improve my lot in life". The difference is, I think the Chinese have a feeling akin to Americans at the start of the century while Americans, perhaps, have a feeling akin to that of Europeans at the end of the last.]]

Have you ever talked with an American about the UN? The scorn is amazing (and a fine example of how biased the media in the US has become)

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. It all started after the Iraq war through Fox News. Everyone I know who bashes the UN, they're a Fox News watcher, and had no problem with the UN until then.

You know what? I’ve heard educated Americans (ie: Masters in Chemistry etc. . .) distain Thomas Jefferson.

A master in chemistry means nothing. All it means is that they're good at chemistry. Point proven by how idiotic they are with their comment above. ;) This is why I don't hold so-called "educated" people above others such as doctors and all that because it only shows they're good at one thing -- what they got their degree in -- not all of a sudden having a PHD in everything. Heck, those with degrees are actually the worst because they now specialize in one thing and look at everything through that one viewpoint, rather than having a broad one. Point proven by the many postings here on these forums. ;)

- N

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. It all started after the Iraq war through Fox News. Everyone I know who bashes the UN, they're a Fox News watcher, and had no problem with the UN until then.

They are bashed with good reason..Corruption,abuse,torture,rape,mass pedophilia,incompetence,and worst of all just ineffective unless the US is backing it....The UN certainly has a place in this world but nations do not share each others interests and when the legality of a war can be decided by who can offer third world nations better economic packages for a vote or 1 million Africans are butchered and nothings done then somethings seriously wrong...

Heres the real deal..International law is whatever the US,UK,China,or Russia says it is and will act in their own interests and theres nothing anyone can do about it.... ;)

Better yet,can you give me reasons why I shouldnt bash the UN???

Heres the real deal..International law is whatever the US,UK,China,or Russia says it is and will act in their own interests and theres nothing anyone can do about it.... ;)
International law is now in the hands of the European Union those 4 countries US,UK,China,Russia are bankrupt has beens . All nations are dumping the US $ for the Euro that means where the money is so is the power .
Better yet,can you give me reasons why I shouldnt bash the UN???
Who cares the UN is an invention of the US and as America is economically disappearing up its own bankrupt ass so will the UN thank God .

International law is now in the hands of the European Union those 4 countries US,UK,China,Russia are bankrupt has beens . All nations are dumping the US $ for the Euro that means where the money is so is the power ..

They first have to figure out how to defend themselves and their national interests before having any say in world affairs... ;)

I don't think Europe would ever have the guts to take a stand on anything. They have become so soft that war is impossible for them now.

I don't think Europe would ever have the guts to take a stand on anything. They have become so soft that war is impossible for them now.

Wouldnt even matter if they had the guts.At this point Poland could steamroll Germany or France so any talk about the EU dictating international law is laughable.. :)

If the US wants to invade Iran tommorow there isnt anything the EU could do to stop us so im not exactly sure what Brian Foley means when he says that international law is now in the hands of the EU..Maybe he could explain..

What good is thye US military when there is no money to operate the machine . The EU has the money , so the world listens , America is bankrupt no nation cares . Iran warned America that Iran would not sit idly by whilst america attacked Syria . Can you imagine that WARNED America ! 20 years ago no nation would of ever dared do that to America . Yet Iran is courting The EU shows you where and what the world now revolves around .

What good is thye US military when there is no money to operate the machine . The EU has the money , so the world listens , America is bankrupt no nation cares . Iran warned America that Iran would not sit idly by whilst america attacked Syria . Can you imagine that WARNED America ! 20 years ago no nation would of ever dared do that to America . Yet Iran is courting The EU shows you where and what the world now revolves around .
I would argue that a big part of this is because 20 years ago the world was polarized and the US and Western Europe were more or less identically aligned policy wise. That is no longer the case, so there exists some latitude between the agendas of the EU and the US. Rather than the US simply being "weaker" of course.

What good is thye US military when there is no money to operate the machine . The EU has the money , so the world listens , America is bankrupt no nation cares ..

The EU will be dead in 15 years...Its already starting.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1441381,00.html



Iran warned America that Iran would not sit idly by whilst america attacked Syria . Can you imagine that WARNED America ! 20 years ago no nation would of ever dared do that to America ...

Do you think the US cares???I would be willing to make a wager that if the US attacked Syria tommorow Iran wouldnt do a damn thing....Alot of talk from the Mullahs but pretty laughable if you think about it.



Yet Iran is courting The EU shows you where and what the world now revolves around .

Again,and this isnt even debatable..If the US attacked Iran tommorow the EU couldnt do anything and that is a fact...Iran will hedge its bet with Europe as its the only thing that keeps the US away from her..........We shall see....

I would argue that a big part of this is because 20 years ago the world was polarized and the US and Western Europe were more or less identically aligned policy wise. That is no longer the case, so there exists some latitude between the agendas of the EU and the US. Rather than the US simply being "weaker" of course.
Western Europe was deneid after WWII its Eastern part , which made Western Europe reliant on the US market . With the end of the USSR Weste Europe retreived its Eastern part and now with the introduction of the Euro the EU has become the world largest consumer market on Earth . The power of the US has contracted since 1990 due to this situation and since the introduction of the unified European currency even dramitically more so . The USA will revert to being a hemispherical power in several years .

The EU will be dead in 15 years...Its already starting.
Absolutely ridiculous you give me a thread about French voters and the EU constitution . Could you show me where in France or that matter anywhere in Europe where there is a nation seriously considering pulling out ? Not even Britain is considering it , the Ukraine risked an all out confrontation with Russia to join and Turkey is bending over backwards to get in ! The EU since 1990 has gone from strength to strength accomplishment to accomplishment . I bet you were one of the Euro sceptices that predicted very seriously that the Euro would collapse in 3 months . Now look at the Euro it is eclipsing the US $ and nations are dumping the $ for the Euro .
Do you think the US cares???
200,000 US military personnell in the mideast at present puts that boast to rest .
I would be willing to make a wager that if the US attacked Syria tommorow Iran wouldnt do a damn thing....Alot of talk from the Mullahs but pretty laughable if you think about it.
Iran has too its surrounded and knows the US wants to invade .
Again,and this isnt even debatable..If the US attacked Iran tommorow the EU couldnt do anything and that is a fact...Iran will hedge its bet with Europe as its the only thing that keeps the US away from her..........We shall see....
Then why is the US dragging its feet in the face of EU defiance over Iran especially the EU protecting and defending Iran against US foreign policy lying such as the Iranian atomic bomb fantasy . The US military due to financial restraints is getting smaller and smaller eventually the EU version of NATO will secede the US .

Absolutely ridiculous you give me a thread about French voters and the EU constitution . Could you show me where in France or that matter anywhere in Europe where there is a nation seriously considering pulling out ? Not even Britain is considering it , the Ukraine risked an all out confrontation with Russia to join and Turkey is bending over backwards to get in ! The EU since 1990 has gone from strength to strength accomplishment to accomplishment . I bet you were one of the Euro sceptices that predicted very seriously that the Euro would collapse in 3 months . Now look at the Euro it is eclipsing the US $ and nations are dumping the $ for the Euro ..

Brian..You can still be an EU cheerleader and still know if the Constitution fails the EU is severely screwed..........




200,000 US military personnell in the mideast at present puts that boast to rest .

Thats the point..American can steamroll over Iran and the EU couldnt do anything about it so why would the US care about Iranian threats????Historically speaking you will never be a world power unless you can protect your interests and as of right now the EU refuses to spend money on defense..



Then why is the US dragging its feet in the face of EU defiance over Iran especially the EU protecting and defending Iran against US foreign policy lying such as the Iranian atomic bomb fantasy ..

Because the US knows that Iran will never give up enrichment and will break the deal so why not go along??They have a pledge from Europe to refer them to the UNSC for sanctions if they do..Its a win win situation...

As for a fantasy,people arent stupid Brian... ;)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050318/ts_nm/nuclear_ukraine_dc_3

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=13417


The US military due to financial restraints is getting smaller and smaller eventually the EU version of NATO will secede the US .

I have no doubt that the EU will try to replace NATO but thats the least of their worries...

What good is thye US military when there is no money to operate the machine .
We could always bring back the proud tradition of looting the enemy after they are conquered. We also have the option of doing things like using the economies of these countries to fuel our war machine. So many people already accuse us of this sort of thing so, hey, why not?

Take care about one's accusations. If someone feels they are already getting the punishment, they may as well commit the crime.

Brian..You can still be an EU cheerleader and still know if the Constitution fails the EU is severely screwed..........
If that happens all the EU has to do is redraft the constitution until everyone is happy . The EU have a universal passport and currecy and there are no more borders and visas and free flow of tariff free trade . Plenty of accomplishments .
Thats the point..American can steamroll over Iran and the EU couldnt do anything about it so why would the US care about Iranian threats????Historically speaking you will never be a world power unless you can protect your interests and as of right now the EU refuses to spend money on defense..
The EU and Russia could very easily supply Iran with advanced airdefence technology and advisors on how to use these technologies . This could make the US think twice about launching an invasion which could seriously weaken the military .
Because the US knows that Iran will never give up enrichment and will break the deal so why not go along??They have a pledge from Europe to refer them to the UNSC for sanctions if they do..Its a win win situation...
Not while Russia is involved in the construction of these power stations .
As for a fantasy,people arent stupid Brian... ;)
The line forms to the left .

We could always bring back the proud tradition of looting the enemy after they are conquered.
The looting of Iraq has now cost the US Taxpayer $ 200+ billion and climbing even Iraqi oil which is just lying there for the taking is no good because the EU wont buy it .

The looting of Iraq has now cost the US Taxpayer $ 200+ billion and climbing even Iraqi oil which is just lying there for the taking is no good because the EU wont buy it .
Proof we aren't looting. Yet.

If that happens all the EU has to do is redraft the constitution until everyone is happy ..

Do you realize how many years it took to get this one????If the Constitution gets rejected the EU is in a whole lot of trouble...


The EU have a universal passport and currecy and there are no more borders and visas and free flow of tariff free trade . Plenty of accomplishments .

Sorry buddy but those minor accomplishments wont do anything to keep the EU afloat...Its painfully obvious that third rate economies just wont cut it and even the EU understands this even if you dont.. ;)

http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=18646

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The US economy is 20 years ahead of that of the EU and it will take decades for Europe to catch up, according to an explosive new study published on Friday (11 March).

And im supposed to be frightened by the EU?? :p

The EU and Russia could very easily supply Iran with advanced airdefence technology and advisors on how to use these technologies . This could make the US think twice about launching an invasion which could seriously weaken the military ..

Then why havent they?????And as I said earlier,if you want to claim that the EU dictates international law then at least show me and examples of it besides telling what they "could" do....Actions speak much louder than words Brian....... :) When the day comes that the EU could stop the US from doing anything she wanted let me know...



The line forms to the left .

Ok but dont call something a fantasy when Iran is purchasing missiles that can be armed with nuclear warheads..........

ABC..Easy as 123...........................

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-03-21T180244Z_01_CHA164895_RTRUKOC_0_EU-WORLDBANK-SUCCESSION.xml

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - European Union heavyweight Germany has pledged not to oppose Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz as head of the World Bank on the eve of an EU summit which will discuss the American's nomination.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050322/wl_nm/arms_china_delay_dc_1

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The European Union (news - web sites) is likely to delay plans to lift an arms embargo on China in the face of Beijing's passage of a law allowing military force against Taiwan and unexpectedly strong opposition from the United States, European diplomats said on Monday.

Increasingly weak?? ;)

Does anyone honestly believe that the EU could coordinate its efforts in a non economic arena? Will one country willingly bow to the majority on an issue that they are terribly opposed to? If not, they mean little.

All this is saying is that the European Union has emerged as the Worlds premier economic power and as for China its market reliance on the US economy is switching to the much larger EU consumer market . Another telling clue as to Chinas economic and military impotence is the EU arm sales to that nation and Russia does not bat an eyelid . It shows you very clearly that Japan still is and always was the Asian economic giant to be reckoned with .

Just as the Soviet Union fell, America is falling.

So is Western civilization.

The modern world ate it up.

:m:

"US,UK,China,Russia are bankrupt has beens"

China?? A bankrupt has been?? Get Help.

You make it sound like the EU is some superpower! *NEWSFLASH* The EU has no offensive Military Capabilty. With China's growing economic power you will not even be able to claim that distinction *sigh*. Enjoy 3rd place.

Does anyone honestly believe that the EU could coordinate its efforts in a non economic arena? Will one country willingly bow to the majority on an issue that they are terribly opposed to? If not, they mean little.

I do, having been to Europe I can tell you that economic co-operation will tie the union together, it always does that is the basic premise of free trade to make two states interests into one. Don't underestimate the power of the market here, it is only a matter of time before Europe gets its intergrated defence force, and it will ratify the EU constitution soon. Europe's power it must also be understood is not with its military its with its economic might, it is far superior to the US in terms of investments, trade, and will and is seriously challenging the US hegemony economically, and with a emerging ad hoc alliance with China the US has to seriously contemplate its relationship with nations like India.

America is still the most powerful country but the world seems to be banding against America and this is much the result of the Iraq war.

that dosnt make sense...

that dosnt make sense...
Explain

Proof we aren't looting. Yet.
Heh, I'm still waiting for this alleged "war for oil" to get my gasoline prices under $3/gallon.

America is still the most powerful country but the world seems to be banding against America and this is much the result of the Iraq war.

how the hell is the world being against america tha cause of the iraq war??

Ummm.... Odin. I think you read that wrong. I believe he said that everyone in banding against the US BECAUSE of Desert Storm 2.0... not DUE to it.

ohhhh ok that explains it .. lets hope thats what he ment.
but alas
" but the world seems to be banding against America and this is much the result of the Iraq war." i think he ment exactly what i thought he did. read it carefully.

Anybody saw Tom Friedman's piece on why Europe hates America in Discovery Channel?

America has to accept that the era of a single world superpower is passing and it should accept that sooner rather than later.

actually the era of singe world superpower started very recently and will be here for a while, the days of multi superpowers is long gone. America needs to realise that continuing along this road is not very healthy.

The single world superpower model does not work except when a nation has natural resources to plunder as the USA did, AND starts out with a high grade of population (which the USA did - educated, independent thinkers). Now that both of those are attenuated, the future of the USA is Brazil or India. Goodbye, and good fucking riddance.