I hear the word "freedom" on every corner in the USA. I do understand it's a part of allpermeating propaganda campain on brainwashing an average Joe from craddle to grave. But I keep on wondering what are those unimaginable freedoms are? Do Americans think on the meaning of that word? Or it's just became a stereotype one think with and don't think about? How an American is more free than a German or even Russian? How a human atom, not super rich, fearful of future, living in an extremely structured, cut throat society could be free? Free of what? Free to do what? Once, on a talk radio, I've heard a phrase something like this: " You are free to do things but you are not free from repercussions of your freedom to do things". For example, you are free to object "in God we trust" in a court but you should not mind tonnes of filth and threats left on your answering machine by Jesus crowd. If this is a definition of freedom, than even prisoners in concentration camp are free.
You are free to complain about the government and our leaders without being arrested for treason. You are free to worship any god or none at all without the government's interference. You are free to better yourself as much as your means, competence, and luck will allow. You will not be forced to work somewhere as a slave or otherwise actively held down. You have the freedom to see whatever information you wish, barring classified crap or when it invades another's privacy. There will be no official government censorship of the media. No goon with a gun pointed at the newscaster's head. Yadda yadda. Basically, you can live your life as if the government did not exist 99% of the time. They just keep the gears turning behind the scenes, except in emergency situations.
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." - Kris Kristofferson. Janus Joplin I guess by one definition many Americans are a lot more free than they were a week ago.
As long as your barking does not endanger power structure, you are free to bark. Sure, you'll be called commie, unamerican, terrorist sympathyzer, traitor ... along the way. But you are free to bark. So is Russian. So is Russian. Constitutions of several states demand holders of office to have belief in some kind of deity. Non religious people are descriminated against in the USA. It's very prudent not to express your lack of belief in a deity. It takes guts for an average Joe to say that he's atheist, or agnostic. If you are a politician showing off religiosity is a must. And die on the streets, if your luck will be less than average. So is Russian. Well, if somebody will catch you and put to the work in a well protected sweat shop, that freedom is kind of meaningless and imaginary at best. Despite ready availability of cheap Mexican labor there are plenty of sweatshops on the American soil. Thousands of women are sold into sexual slavery here. Sure, those people will be prosecuted if caught. So in Russia. Well, I'll give you that archives in the USA are more open than in Russia. Why do you need a goon if media is corporate owned, nearly monopolized and works on corporate interests? So is in Russia. There is official government censorship of the media in the USA; at least in one case I know about. If a movie director wants to make a film touching an American army in one way or another and needing military equipment for it, the script should go through the special military unit which decides if film is "American" enough to give equipment for. Basically, stick your head in the sand, place your body on a boat and float with the flow. Dream citizen for ruling elites.
hey your free cause Bush (i mean baron max) says your free, corse if you come to australia there is less cencership than on your surposed free speach http://punkhop.com/jaysilver/lenatures.htm Even tho you can surposedly protest against anyone if you do so you better have a permit (unlike what happens here where they built a new square, federation square, in the center of melb so that among other things people could gather there to protest) You have a medical system where as soon as you walk in they ask if you have insurance (rather than like here where they ask what your medicare number is because its free) or they wont treat you, just so you cant be called commies
Please remember that I started life on the very bottom. Poor parents, an apartment that had more wildlife than the amazon, and a drug lab just a couple buildings down. I worked my way up, starting as a laborer in a cement plant, and eventually payed my way through college. Don't talk to me about a ruling elite. I was free to do whatever I was capable of doing (withing reason), and without the government getting in the way. That is as much as I could ever ask. I didn't wan't any free handouts, only the bare skeleton of a chance to make my way. All places are not so free. In some countries, you are told your role in life from a relatively young age and never get the choice for yourself. In others, those doing a touch too poorly in school will literally be kicked out after a certain grade. Protesting the government openly in any manner may get you locked away or, if you are seen as too big a troublemaker, just shot. The law may be a bit nearsighted at times, but it works to enforce those rights when it does see that they are in danger. As for our media being corporate owned, what is the alternative? Somebody has to pay to have the newspapers printed and the cameras rolling. The only other choice is to let the government do that as they do in North Korea or the old Soviet Union. If you don't like it, start your own newspaper. There is no law saying you can't. Hell, we let Moore's Farenheit 9-11 movie be shown. Somebody must be a freaking saint not to blow the man's balls off. I don't claim we are the only free nation. I do, however, believe we are the most free country that didn't turn into a weak and helpless jellyfish in becoming so.
Please, remember that you live in a pyramidal or hierarchical (wealth/opportunity wise) society. That means bottom is always much broader than top. That means no matter how everybody will try, there will be people making $5/hr and living on the streets. That means that lots and lots of folks in the similar situation to yours, with similar abilities and drive did not make it. I'll give American plutocracy its due. Plutocratic propaganda "it's not systems fault" it's all your fault. Had you tried harder, had you had more personal responsibility, you'd be on the top and push the guy next to you to the bottom (directly or indirectly). Americans like this kind of fairy tale. It's a cultural thing, and cultures be not judged. So I'll not. Just remember, your personal success story cannot be extrapolated on the entire hierarchical society. Not going to work. You have won, good for you. You think soviet government was intruding in the choice of life paths by its citizens? Hell no (if one was not barking aloud). You've forgotten to add something. I'll do it for you. "I was free to do whatever I was capable of doing if I could pay for it". Great constraint. But one could try anyway. Similarly, in the USA: if one was born poor, 90% chances are that he'll die poor (with all pleasures of being poor, like limited choices). It's appears like statistical predetermination. Sure, there is a chance, but chance is everywhere. BTW, social mobility is greater in Canada and UK than in the birthplace of blue American dream. Who would think Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Too lazy to look up reference on research. thus, perception is reality. Seems like such a lack of freedom is wellspread in the USA. Can't make grades, no diploma. I must admit, it was quite a feeling when barking on government was allowed in USSR (as a part of the plan on destruction of country). But then realization has come, what is the principal difference between "you are not allowed to bark" and "nobody pays attention to your teethless barking"? If your barking will be percieved as dangerous for government, expect no mercy even in the land of free. So this freedom is quite perceived. [qoute] As for our media being corporate owned, what is the alternative? Somebody has to pay to have the newspapers printed and the cameras rolling. The only other choice is to let the government do that as they do in North Korea or the old Soviet Union. If you don't like it, start your own newspaper. There is no law saying you can't. [/quote] Is corporate property the only kind of property? Alternative: ban on monopolization of news media by several major players. The smaller media corporation, the more media corporations exists - the harder to control the flow of info. + asking question "who benefits" after each viewing a news story etc. Well, I would not overestimate the power of media though. Humans see what they want to see, the real picture is irrelevant. the matrix of preferences is embedded before one pays attention to media. Many folks never pays attention to media (meaning political news, etc.), soaps and reality shows are more than enough to satisfy their needs. Well, compared to the numerous right wing talk shows which has occupied radio, Moore is simply a beacon of objectivity, love and reason. I truly believe that Michael Savage is getting more insane every year. There is such a network as RBN (republic broadcast network). I would rename it into PLN (paranoid loon network). that is true assembly of mental cases. You may say everything about Moore (maybe even rightly so) but compared to the other side he's objective angle of truth.
Sure, that's true. But in America, if you ain't got any money, you're free to go out and try to earn some or starve to death. That's still freedom, ya' know! There's nothing in the definition of freedom that says anything about other people feeding, housing and clothing anyone. Freedom means that you are free to TRY to EARN a living, not that it's GIVEN to you. But all-in-all, I think most people of the world are somewhat free ...it's just a matter of degree. Even in abject slavery, one is sometimes "free" enough to escape and run .....and perhaps die. But that's still some degree of "freedom". Baron Max
You do not know what "earn" means. Only an idiot would wnat to "earn" anything. Real capitalists are not concerned about "earning". A real capitalist goes out, and gets whatever he can get his hands on in the most efficient manner. "Earning" is a misdirected concept for the docile.
Freedom is realtive thing, depending on where you are. Few countries allow their population more freedom than does the U.S.; many others are about the same. From some of the replies you've made in this thread you seem to be aware of only two countries - the U.S. and Russia. I suggest you go spend a few months in Nigeria, Iran, North Korea, or a few others like them and then come back and tell us how much freedom we don't have!
Well, I would discern two things "freedom to do things" and "probability to get thing (you like) done". In the very same terrible Nigeria, one may get all the freedoms an Average American have. However, probability of that is quite low. Chance is everywhere. Freedom is magnitude of that chance. The closer it to 1, the freer person (as much as one can be free in a society).
Light and i would suggest you come HERE for a while and see how our country works, we dont need to yell and beat our chests as you are but we are much more free and MUCH more FAIR than you are (hell even if you dont have a dollor to your name you can go to almost any hospital, imagin that)
social mobility is greater in ....... I was interested in this statement. Could someone point out some research on the topic? I’d be interested in knowing which nations, presently, have the best opportunity (percentage wise) for the most people to be upwardly mobile (say out of poverty). Say if we compared the percentage of people in the US in poverty and the percentage of people in China in poverty and then which of the peoples have the most likelihood of getting out of poverty (percentage). I would assume that presently social mobility in China would far outstrip that of the USA?
Revolutions are caused by motivated intelligent people. In America if you are one of the have-less(very few people in America can be considered have-nots) it is easier to become one of the haves than it is to ferment revolution. Between the free education, welfare and the military almost anyone can become well off and within two generations one of the elite. Our news media is owned by large corporations but we are allowed to publish our own paper if we wanted to we can access any web site that we want to if we need information. From poverty to middle class is an easy transition it is harder to transit to the middle to the upper class but it is a lot easier than in most places. In my class we had literally a gun toting republican, a gay conservative, a roman catholic, a southern baptist, an atheist and who knows what else. We all agreed on some issues and disagreed on some issues. We all got together last week for a three month reunion this sounds like religious freedom in action to me.
So, Weasel, provided everybody will try hard, in two generations USA will become a nation for 100% consisting of upper class? Well, man, that is a quite a belief. No comments.
Free Education? I am STILL in school and STILL scraping for ways to pay for it...Your FREE education was payed for by me while I worked to try to put myself through school...The United States has become a single WELFARE state. Keep the poor dependant upon you for their survival and guess what...you have a perminent lower class (which is a necessity in a capitalist system) that feels as if it is not their place to work, or contribute to society. Personally, I am sick of this whole - I'm gonna take what is owed me - attitude that is pervading America. I have no idea what you are referring to - FREE EDUCATION. One of, if not THE, main reason people ORIGINALLY came to America (yes, I am referring to the USofA founding fathers) was to own land. Europe was a feudal system and the people who came here believed that they could be free to own their own land and GOVERN THEMSELVES when upon it. Read The US Constitution, it is all about the protection of property rights (whether intellectual or physical property). Freedom is the right to own your own life...Freedom is the liberty to make decisions for yourself as long as you respect the rights of others to do likewise. Now, we have seatbelt laws, property taxes (am I paying the government rent to "own" my land? Argue not if you like, but if I do not pay my taxes the government can and will forcefully remove me.), forced evacuation (Concerning Katrina victims, if I had nowhere to go, I would not leave my home either...how many people are dying in "sactioned shelters", why would I want to be displaced from the place I feel safe? Who are government officials to tell me that I MUST leave my property? Remember, the use of deadly force to insure this evacuation happens has been authorized), etc... Wow...I am stuck on this idea of FREE EDUCATION...it must be nice to be either lower class (eligible for the suckling on the government teet), or upper class...because in Bush's new world there is no place for a middle class...we make too much money to get tax breaks, welfare, or other aid, yet we cannot afford the rising cost of education, taxes, gas, etc...Do not misunderstand me, by middle class I am referring to my $12,000/ year I am able to scrounge while attempting to go to school 20 hours a semester (on loans). Amazing... I am a die hard - liaze faire capitalist...welfare has no place in my idea of utopia. I guess I should be happy for people who can use the system to get a FREE education, but perhaps I would just prefer to keep the $1500 a year I spend on property taxes so I CAN go to school. As you can tell this is something I feel very strongly about...I just want to mention one more point before I am done...I saw a commercial a few days ago. It portrayed a woman driving her SUV home at night...It showed a car full of juveniles pull up along side her at a stop light...she locks her doors...she pulls into the parking lot of her apartment and once again there are unsavorables hanging about (stereotyping?)...she sets the alarm in her SUV and walks to her door with keys in her fist, ready to be used as weapons if need be...She quickly slips into her apartment slams the door and locks several sets of deadbolts and chains...She leans agains her door in releif that she has made it in safely...realize that the whole first part of this commercial is very dark and foreboding...so, next it shows her happily in her brightly light apartment sitting on her couch eating a piece of chocolate cake...cake done, she sits back to enjoy a cigarette while watching her favorite shows...The screen fades to black and something akin tot the following appeared,"Let us protect you from yourself." Oh, it pissed me off...what kind of propaganda is that? Shall we just hand over a few more freedoms "for our better good"? Not if I have anything to say about it. Okay, I am done...sorry about that...I am a Libertarian and the Bush regime gets me re...nevermind sorry...done again. - KitNyx
Oh, and please do not even get me started about welfare healthcare...America is the most hypocondriac nation in the world. - KitNyx
KitNyx wouldnt you like to be treated by the smartest docs and not ones who were "the smartest out of the group who could aford uni"? isnt that the same of any job? that when you buy something (or use something, or employ somebody) that they are the best person there and not the best out of the group who could aford the training needed? i HATE HECS but atleast its a system that alows people to go to uni despite what they or there parents already have, so they can be the best person for the job rather than having potentually the best doc's digging ditches because there parents are poor And our health system might not be the best on earth but i know that if i need a doc i dont need to save up for it all i need to do is walk into a bulk billing clinic (or if i dont i might have to fork out $10 a visit) with my medi care card and KNOW i will get treated. THATS why i pay TAX, not to fund the goverment blowing up some other country
I agree with you on education...I can possibly believe in a free education system equally availible to ALL. And yes, I do believe this free education system would have been a better way to spend 300 bil+ USD, than invading another country. I can believe in free education ONLY because our unions have pushed manufacturing jobs overseas...The US will only recover its former glory by making Americans themselves an in demand commodity. - KitNyx
