We have recently seen the American police open fire on Anti-war protestors in America with rubber bullets and concusion grenades claiming "they attacked first" despite claims from even the mayors office staff that this is not the case.
now further from home in Iraq given the growing numbers of Anti-American protests who want and Iraqi Interim government instead of an american one claiming there can be no democracy installed or founded whilst the americans are overseeing it all.

Now they have opend fire on these protestors as well but this time with live ammo killing 10 and wounding dozens more.,
Of course they are claming to of been shot at first by people who then "Disapeared" but the press and protestors there of course say otherwise.
Is this the start of the "Democracy" they want? where they wil shoot and kill anyone who doesn't agree with the way they want to run things?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/mosu-a16.shtml

I dont believe it, American troops do NOT kill civilians, they are as clean as Israel troops when they deal with palestinians, dont ever try to convince me that such thing could ever happen..

Regards

Shit happens.

Yeah, take into account this is the website of the World Socialist Web Site. You'd think they could up with better, more believable propoganda than this shameless lying.

Could you find this story somewhere else?

Originally posted by Balder1
Yeah, take into account this is the website of the World Socialist Web Site. You'd think they could up with better, more believable propoganda than this shameless lying.

Could you find this story somewhere else?

here you are:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=397631

Chris

why does everyone just dismiss this because of the source instead of coming up with something solid to refute it.

Thanks for the independant link mate.

Whilst yes this site has a left spin i have yet to see them lie or falsify evidence like much of the "Free press" has been doing lately so as far as i'm concerned they are a more reliable source of news than most.

its a commen human syndrom i call it "follow the leader", its basicly when someone sees another person doing something and then copies it with out thinking abuot it for them self.
its a part of how humans learns stuff

The Marines arent police they don't put up with crap. You should not be protesting when there is still a war going on in the area.

rightttttttttttttttttt

again you doge the geniva convention

wonder if there will ever be charges laid over afgainistan, iraq then syria, iran, north koria ect

"The Marines arent police they don't put up with crap. You should not be protesting when there is still a war going on in the area."
Ja- Zat should allow killink all ze protestors for as lonk as necessary. Wunderbar, Herr Reichsprotektor.

Well, the main reason I don't go out to protests, is that I'm convinced that
1: They'll turn violent, because of protestors doings or police.
2: The FBI is out taking pictures and that one day I'll get a surprise visit from the boys in Black and I'll disappear for eternity.

heyya all :)

i think it is very likely that people will be shooting at the troops whenever they have crowds around to try to insight such actions!

the stone throwing is on tape!
its hard to try and justify stones with reply of bullets when such action might be considered normal in that country.

congratulations U$A you fel right into the trap!

now who looks bad!

im sure they will now move to more suicide bombs then more riots
to martre as many as possible to make the U$A loose face in the eyes of the world!

look at all the locals who just start shooting at people driving vehicles with looted goods on board!
its on film!

so what "we" have the luxury of calling normal is total paradise compared to the way they have been trained in some countrys!

maybe this is the first example why the troops have been soo relluctant to act like police toward the locals???

many questions, little truths

groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

We have recently seen the American police open fire on Anti-war protestors in America with rubber bullets and concusion grenades claiming "they attacked first" despite claims from even the mayors office staff that this is not the case.
now further from home in Iraq given the growing numbers of Anti-American protests who want and Iraqi Interim government instead of an american one claiming there can be no democracy installed or founded whilst the americans are overseeing it all.

Now they have opend fire on these protestors as well but this time with live ammo killing 10 and wounding dozens more

Uh. It's a war zone. Those guys aren't issued rubber bullets. Maybe those protestors ought to wait and see what develops before they assume the worst about a government.

An American military spokesman said that the troops were fired on before they returned fire.

Originally posted by Asguard
rightttttttttttttttttt

again you doge the geniva convention

wonder if there will ever be charges laid over afgainistan, iraq then syria, iran, north koria ect

Your still in a hot spot of the world gathering up where you can be attacked by terrorist to make the USA look bad is not a good idea.

Im pretty sure when your shot at you can retrun fire. Nobody has really posted a news source BTW both those articles are editorialized.

Operation Assholectomy has ended with the patient on critical life support. Iraq is dying, and the American occupation will only worsen the situation.

here is the bbc report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2951789.stm

Btw reuters also had a story on this "I'll dig up the link in a mo".
seems not only was the speach irritating the crowd but given this is the american installed ruler and whilst he was giving the speach the American troops raised the stars and stripes over the official building...well comon ffs i know american foreign politics aren't very good but surely you must know given the tensions and given the crowd are getting rowdy against the guy you put into lead them, raising the stars and stripes in the middle of it was asking for trouble ffs.
I'm not sure if the Americans fell victim in firing onto a crowd in response to a stoning making them look worse or the iraqis fell victim to responding to that provocation, or both?

They fired when they were fired upon. Would you just stand there and get shot?

FYI: It is easy to dissapear into a crowd of like-dressed individuals. Especially when they are in stampeed mode.

They fired when they were fired upon. Would you just stand there and get shot?

Hell no, firing into the crowd is the only thing to do. Ah, the false dichotomy of pacifism/ crazy machine gun rampage. Its unclear whether they were retaliating. I'd like to see some video footage or 7.62 casings.

They fired when they were fired upon. Would you just stand there and get shot?

No. I'd leave.
You invade a country and then you shoot people when they tell you to fuck off! Whats your problem? You could leave but you don't. You shoot people instead. I have nothing against America but this is not sustainable behavior. Your troops guard the oilwells and leave Museums and hospitals to be looted. Hell you've let politicians fuck up your own country what makes you think their gonna do any better overseas? Wise up and learn a bit of humility. Your ok really, I know you are,just show the world how nice you can be. Oh and give up on that 'gun culture' thing your worse than the Afgans!

Sheesh!:rolleyes:
Dee Cee

No. You shoot at people when they shoot at you. As did happen here. The problem is automatic and semiautomatic weapons arent that accurate and the guy was probabally shooting from within the crowd itself. A soldier's instincts tell him to shoot in the general direction of fire.

Trust me. If those guys were trying to take out the crowd 100+ civilians (minimum) would be dead, not ten.

This wasn't your average stoner college campus protest.

The Americans were confronted by a mob of 20,000 angry Isalamics who insisted that the Americans leave. Should the American soldiers have held fire until they had taken casualties?? Hell no, that would have resulted in hundreds of deaths.

Had the soldiers been given orders to leave town if confronted by a pro Saddam mob? Hell no, their orders are to hold their ground, and that is exactly what they did.

Considering that the Iraqis fire AK47s into the air to celebrate a childs birthday party, there were certainly unfriendly weapons present and fired.

We have recently seen the American police open fire on Anti-war protestors in America with rubber bullets and concusion grenades claiming "they attacked first" despite claims from even the mayors office staff that this is not the case.

Where's your proof on that one?

now further from home in Iraq given the growing numbers of Anti-American protests who want and Iraqi Interim government instead of an american one claiming there can be no democracy installed or founded whilst the americans are overseeing it all.

Then let the French do it. They haven't done anything else.

The fact that your source is so unbiased, is startling!

We have recently seen the American police open fire on Anti-war protestors in America with rubber bullets and concusion grenades claiming "they attacked first" despite claims from even the mayors office staff that this is not the case.

counslerCoffee
whers your proof on that one?

Wtf where have you been all week this has been on more news than i can remember there are massive protests against it.

try this

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1596671.php
..bah reuters is not on the main page anymore ill post the link when i get to work later.
Look on the web, the police opened fire on Anti-war protestors and longshore men at the Oakland docks in the US.
I suppose i'm not supprised if this isnt covered much in the US.

counslerCoffee
The fact that your source is so unbiased, is startling

Omg resorting back to the source bashing, i expected better from you tbh.
People have posted alternate more "moderate" links and i can post you tousands if you want to left, right and neutral sources but i posted the one i saw first, please like i have said many times if you have an argument against it dont just post omg the source THE SOURCE!! go check it out and refute it with your own if you disagree.
I wanted to point out that the witnesses here claim there was no fire from the crowd and no doubt there will never be any evidence of it for many reasons on both sides, but i wanted to show this thing is becoming more common at home in America and now abroad and well, lets see how often it happens.
Yes there will no doubt be situations where they are shot at but this is a little dodgy and the US Troops sure as hell went some way to provoking it.
This is your leader you put in charge of the iraqis without asking them despite that fact he is imensly unpopular and when they are getting rowdy towards him accusing him of being a US Pet and asking him and the US to leave as it is an insult to their claim of "Democracy" that they have no say in the leaders, then you also go into his building, the symbol of his authority...and raise the Stars and Stripes....well played, well bloddy played.

Here, let me quote a BBC article that dsds posted:

Brigadier-General Vince Brooks said US marines and special forces soldiers fired at demonstrators on Tuesday after they came under attack from people shooting guns and throwing rocks.

"Well, golly gee commander. Should we fire back at them? They are shooting at us?" - Private First Class Walbert Gummer, KIA

*sigh* i know they claim to of been shot at first but a lot of witnesses, yes the protestors as well as i belive, ill check, some french journalists claim otherwise.
I also wanted to point out the seemingly deliberate American provocation *Raising the stars and stripes in the face of the protests despite its nature* and that there have been many incidents recently both in the US and in Iraq where they have claimed to of been fired on first and returned fire killing civillians, journalists and innocents despite claims by even Reuters press and residents etc that there was no provocation and no fire the americans shot first.

I know that there will be no proof either way, the "shell casings" from the crowd wont ever turn up, its iraqi protestors words against the US....basically its another case of this happened but we won't really know the facts i guess but in the light of many recent events if this keeps occuring your going to have to start asking some questions.

As for this not being a "Normal protest" on the contary there are similar sized or larger protests like this all over Iraq at the moment many organised by political parties in Iraq.
remember this is a very cultured and Intellegent country, pre war they had a great civilisation and the most PHD's per capita than most of the civilised world and the Middle east is very political so they know how to organise and what they are talking about.
Its a shame that the US Press are portraying them as a brainwashed country of 3rd world idiots who can't think for themselves and need the US to do it all for them, this is not the case and its why so many are protesting, peacefully i may add, there is still war going and many gureilla fighters and violent crimnals and looters, but there are huge peacful and political protests going on as well, being reported by many countries but hmm..not the US of A (or rather i've yet to see an American report on it)...strange that.

They are basically saying hey thanks for liberating us but the idea of a US interim government? bugger off, anything other than an Iraqi government is to spit in the face of what you are claming to do, liberate us, and instead occupy us and we won't stand for it, get out.

Many have already starting be-moaning, look we freed them and gave them democracy and already they are abusing this right to speach attack us and order us out, well hey thats democracy for you, they are an intellegent people who see the chance to finally run themselves after so long under a dictator however grudgingly thanks to the coallition but they can run themselves now, the year plus the US wants to run the country along with the current acts, protecting the Oil wells and industry sites and offices with the Oil study's leaving civillian infrastructure, hospitals and musems and banks to be looted, along with the constant acts like raising the American flag whilst the unpopular leader they put in power is trying to convince them that the US is not here to stay or in power but the Iraqis are..whilst the US Troops raise the US Flag over the whole thing....its all going the wrong way about this.
I'm not being funny but it just seems the US doesn't do very well at all with dealing with ocupying a country and unless they want to keep rubbing people up and causing a mess they need to pull back a bit, it always seems to be the US raising flags all over inciting people, and them opening fire before asking questions and killing inncents creating more resenment.
The UK troops are out in numbers too, not as great yet they have yet to raise their flag or create a civillian mess like the US are doing almost every other day.
Why are they so different? maybe the fact of the way they handle themselves or are trainined, you see the UK troops post battle in the press they are just going on as normal, see the US Troops they are wooping and screaming and cheering that they blew the arse off a bus.....i guess thats what happens when you place your power in big guns and overwhelming power rather than expertise.

The Americans were confronted by a mob of 20,000 angry Isalamics who insisted that the Americans leave. Should the American soldiers have held fire until they had taken casualties?? Hell no, that would have resulted in hundreds of deaths.

Why not just walk away?
It's not that difficult to do. The war's all but over. The Iraqi's want you to go home. Just leave. It's that easy.
You just don't learn do you?
How unpopular do you want to be?

Choose your future!
Dee Cee

A lot of people have been bashing the BBC lately but tbh i don't think they are so bad unless i have missed something...wouldn't suprise me the rate at which this bs is flying, blink and you either miss it or find it all over your face.

I still say those sources such as reuters etc that have had the guts to send out reporters not embedded in the military even if doing so along with embeding some journalists as well, are deserving of a bit more respect than most and i've yet to see Reuters be too biased even in the light of the US Attack on their Journalists hotel killing one of their reporters in a controversial incident, this was covered in a previous post, if people want a link i'll dig one up, a Tank sat pointing at the journalists hotel, it was for non-embeded international journalists, no one else, then it opened fire on the hotel killing one and injuring many.
They say this was due to them taking RPG and Sniper fire from the hotel but the cameras and reported in the hotel all show and say otherwise, no noise of gun fire or signs of RPG, first shot seems to of been the US Tank shell.
To remain fairly objective and neutral after that and still having non-embeds out there, they get my respect.

heyya all :)
(i will read page 2 later today)

psyco connon
too true on the innapropriate flag waving!

the military needs to be raising the iraqi flag first then the symbols of the cultures with the usa flag as more of a logo!

imagine what U$A people would do in a similar situation!
its shortsighted gun-ho stuff!

invites sent but not rsvp-ed ?

how many of the "leaders" want to sit back and let a few million starve to death so as to strengthen thier minority support???

luckey for the iraqi common people that the united nations is starting to get its self into distribution mode as the bullets and bomb count comes down.
no point in making more victims of aid workers!

i would hope they learnt that lesson the last time it was taught in mass murder!


groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

Originally posted by Clockwood
No. You shoot at people when they shoot at you. As did happen here. The problem is automatic and semiautomatic weapons arent that accurate and the guy was probabally shooting from within the crowd itself. A soldier's instincts tell him to shoot in the general direction of fire.

Trust me. If those guys were trying to take out the crowd 100+ civilians (minimum) would be dead, not ten.

If your going to occupy a country and set up a gov't (the notion of APPOINTING a DEMOCRATIC leader is ludicris anyway) do you expect %100 cooperation from the populace? I didn't think so, so why would you be unprepaired for violent and non-violent protest? Smoke grenades, tear gas, RUBBER BULLETS, are just a few trinkets i would have considered (and i thought of this with no military training nontheless!) Also if i'm fighting a physical AND public relations war, i would understand that one civilian death is equivalent to 100 solider deaths. But we Americans are soo smart and well trained that we don't even have to think with guns in our hands! :bugeye:

Psycho,

The fact that SCARED soilders opened fire on protestors, is nothing new. The soilders do not reflect the policy of the US.

They are basically saying hey thanks for liberating us but the idea of a US interim government? bugger off, anything other than an Iraqi government is to spit in the face of what you are claming to do, liberate us, and instead occupy us and we won't stand for it, get out.

Now see, I heard different. I could of swore that the US government said "No occupation." and that "The oil fields will be turned over to the Iraqi people." Hmmm. Also, reconstruction is going to take 5-10 years. You can't expect everything to become perfect after a few days.

"why not just walk away?"
__________________________________________________ __
Thats totally ridiculous!
Soldiers are not trained to just walk away, they are trained to stand their ground.

Psycho-Cannon said:
"seems not only was the speach irritating the crowd but given this is the american installed ruler and whilst he was giving the speach the American troops raised the stars and stripes over the official building...well comon ffs i know american foreign politics aren't very good but surely you must know given the tensions and given the crowd are getting rowdy against the guy you put into lead them, raising the stars and stripes in the middle of it was asking for trouble ffs.
I'm not sure if the Americans fell victim in firing onto a crowd in
response to a stoning making them look worse or the iraqis fell victim to responding to that provocation, or both?"

First of all I would like to say that us Americans just assume that these people will just want to be conquered by us and become Americans themselves, even though for thousands upon thousands of years they have had their own customs, traditions, morals, ways of seeing the world, ways of being and acting in the world, and ways of ruling and being ruled.

We Americans also have a way being above "tact" and common-sense" whereby we can do something like raise the American flag no matter how people will view it, or what negative impact it will have on peace. But like many of the other actions of the troops, like drapping the flag over the eyes of Saddam's statue, it really shows you that our soldiers think that their purpose in Iraq is to conquer it and there is no saying that people are going to take kindly to that or even take it sitting down. A second point is that we Americans have a very antagonistic character that is built into us from the moment we are born. We come from a very competitive society. Provoking people to cause drama is so indicative and endemic of the American character that you really have to wonder who are the civil ones and who are the savages? However, you also have to keep in mind that these troops are high on testosterone as it hasn't been dissapated enough because the war was over with too quickly and easily, so they are going to be liable to do "cocky" things like put up American flags all over the place and have itchy trigger fingers. Still, if you were a troop trying to order a rowdy crowd of protestors and someone fired or people started throwing things, odds are you would shoot too to at the very least prevent yourself from getting shot. Sometimes its a heat of the moment thing. Being in a foreign desert country for weeks and always being in danger can have an effect on a soldier. How would you deal with the paranoia that at any moment a bullet can come flying out of nowhere and go straight through your head? Can you really expect these troops to act sanely all the time?

Iraq is currently in and will be in a state of martial law for as long as U.S. military is present. People do not have the right to protest, there is no habeas corpus, and people will fear the military government. Liberation my ass!

Soldiers are not trained to just walk away, they are trained to stand their ground.

How does that work? I thought you attacked when you had the advantage and pulled back when things go to shit. You get your tactics playing command and conquer?
Let me make this simple for you.
Crowd of hostile civvies.
Troops not equiped for civil disturbance.
High risk of collateral damage.
Pull out.
Shooting civvies will loose you more than it gains. Do you wanna be seen as liberators or occupiers? It's incidents like this that make the ragheads protest to start with.


People are more important than the truth.
Dee Cee

They weren't in San Francisco they were in a war zone. They did what they were ordered to do. If they pull back just once it will be a sign of weakness and could result in a total loss of control.

Don't blame the soldiers blame their dumb ass Commander in Chief.

Then go back to watching "survivor" your only apparent source of knowledge.

They weren't in San Francisco they were in a war zone. They did what they were ordered to do. If they pull back just once it will be a sign of weakness and could result in a total loss of control.

Oh dear!
As far as I'm aware the US military went into Iraq with a clear set of objectives. Shooting civilians is way off message. If US troops are not capable of meeting their objectives then they should not be there.
This is not rocket science.
You have lost Saddam, you've found no WMD's and you kill 'liberated' civillians. What more can I say?
As for pulling back, well, all the way through US troops encountered resistance, pulled back and called in air support. The US is losing the war because it's forces seem incapable of putting civilians before themselves. Are you not fighting for the future of the Iraqi people or did you just make that up up to persuade the rest of the world to follow you?
You need a proper plan don't you?
Is it any wonder that most of the world see the US as a bunch of trigger happy cowboys.
Christ! Even your children shoot each other.

Wise up before you fuck up.
Dee Cee

Iraq is currently in and will be in a state of martial law for as long as U.S. military is present. People do not have the right to protest, there is no habeas corpus, and people will fear the military government. Liberation my ass!

Oh, well, people are looting. Bitch about the looting some more! Wait, were trying to do something about that! But it's called Martial law, so bitch about it. Then bitch about the looting, then bitch about how we can stop the looting but only by putting soldiers on the streets!

Wait! I got more!

Bitch about how the American government is going to help reconstruct Iraq, call it occupation though! Bitch about it! Come on! No wait, America says that it doesn't want to help reconstruct Iraq because people consider it occupation? Bitch about how we went to war with them and decided to not occupy them, and help them up on their feet! But wait, we decided to help so bitch about how were going to help!

Bitch bitch bitch.

Bitch about how the soldiers... No wait, not soldiers. Let's call them kill-bots! Bitch about how the kill-bots are helping to keep order, but get shot at! Then they fire back and kill people! Go figure that if you fire a gun someone could die! Go figure that if you fire a gun at the kill-bots, that they will fire back.

Bitch bitch bitch.

Bitch about how the Americans bombed Iraq and did it so precisely, that the water/eletricity was still on! But then bitch that 10 civilian's died today! But don't bitch about the fact that that number could be higher! Bitch bitch bitch! Come on, yall are good at even when you contradict yourselves!

Bitch about how the Americans bombed Iraq and did it so precisely, that the water/eletricity was still on! But then bitch that 10 civilian's died today! But don't bitch about the fact that that number could be higher! Bitch bitch bitch! Come on, yall are good at even when you contradict yourselves!

If your tired of bitching then pack your bags and leave Iraq. Who asked you to visit anyway? You can't piss on the world and expect us not to open the umbrella.

We don't need your freedom
Dee Cee

Why do you post as if "I" have done all of these things. Hell "I " was not even in favor of the war in the first place.

But now that we are there shit is going to happen, and for the immediate future, combat troops are trying to do a job that they were never trained to do.

You can decry the actions of American soldiers until hell freezes over, but nothing is going to change until there is change in policy on the home front. Is that my fault too?? gees go back to watching reality TV and gain some more valuable knowledge.

heyya all :)

what i heard on our national T.V News was
crowd of angry demonstrators collecting outside a conference!
then started throwing stones at iraqi leaders in vehicles.
as they were throwing stones some snipers opened up on the USA soldiers.

sounds like a very succesful political protest by some very nasty people... if it is true!

a couple of small BIG points!
it is seen as disgracefull to retreat in middle east military tacktics!
so the usa would be considerd cowards and dishonoured if they did so in the eyes of the middle east beliefes!

and

there are major waring religions in iraqi who are very keen to
continue the genocide at the first chance they get!

this is what saddam had reportedly done to the "shi-ites" (sorry for spelling)
tens of thousands have been murdered!
now they want a turn to do the same back!

the police force were used to commit systematic torture/rape/murder!
and allot of common iraqis have already said this and showen the torture cells to the media!

there are thousands of Ex "elite gaurds(rapist torturers) as well as secret police(who the rapist torturers aspire to be like)
still roaming the country.

the shi-ite military commanders said they did not want the usa to pull out and allow another genocidal incident like last time.
the usa will know that there will be allot of people on all sides looking for revenge, which will include wiping out entire family!

VERY DANGEROUSE AND DIFFICULT SITUATION!

is it normal for middle east people to stone to death people for adultery or for being the victim of rape?
How many iraqis care how many people they kill from the falling bullets from thier shooting into the air at celebrations?

lets hope that most people will choose peace!
and abandom public sadism in the quise of law and order.
stop capital punnishment!
stop the death penalty!
peacefull protests will always gain more
(and show UNDENIABLE PROOF or seriouse intent to advance the culture)
respect by the entire world and makes things move faster and allows others to help feed and clothe the poor.

groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

How does that work? I thought you attacked when you had the advantage and pulled back when things go to shit. You get your tactics playing command and conquer?
Let me make this simple for you.
Crowd of hostile civvies.
Troops not equiped for civil disturbance.
High risk of collateral damage.
Pull out.

Those troops were guarding a meeting of US military officers and Iraqis trying to get the country back on its feet. If US troops had 'walked away' and left those people to mob wrath you would have been claiming the US forces allowed it to happen.

We don't need your freedom
Dee Cee

Are you an Iraqi?

We don't need your freedom
Dee Cee

==============

A rabid dog will bite the hand that feeds it.....

I'm sure the majority of the Iraqi people will be gratefull we set them free, at the cost of our own lives.

We could have just nuked Iraq if all we wanted was your oil.
We could have droped a few MOAB fuel/air bombs on each of Iraq's cities and wiped them out without even using our nukes.
But instead....

We sacrificed our own lives to carefully remove an evil dictator and an oppressive regime with the smallest number of civilian casualities possible.

No good deed goes unpunished. Still this has gone pretty well for everybody so far. You would see far worse in just about any other war that humans have ever partaken in.

a lot of them ARE grateful for being free now but already the new "Iraqi" government is being trainined in the US of A to be exported to Iraq and installed under General Jay Garner

An article in the Canadian newspaper , Globe and Mail

A group of about 60 Iraqi exiles, dubbed the Iraqi Reconstruction and Development Council, will form “the backbone of the interim administration to replace the regime of Saddam Hussein”. It “has been working in an undisclosed building near the Pentagon in recent weeks, where its members have set up a mock government that could provide a blueprint for governing postwar Iraq.” The group is now about to fly Baghdad, where under the control of Jay Garner, it will “operate Iraq’s vital government departments.”

The fact that they wont even tell you who is in this group or who was at the meeting to decide the Interim government, depsite the fact there are many resident political groups out there who represent and have the support of broad masses of the Iraqi population who are being excluded and refused contact with any official procedure.


Sheik Mehhi Abdulhussein from the Al-Najin tribe was also barred by US soldiers. “We came here to attend, but they won’t allow us to attend,” he declared. “All of them are agents of the Americans. All of them are working for the American interest. They have to hear our voice. I refuse such treatment! All the Iraqi people have to resist such a movement that is formed under the American umbrella.”


Some, like Iraqi Communist Party member Mohammed Yasser, wanted to take part in the meeting. “I came here at eight in the morning and nobody let me in,” he complained to the Washington Post. “It can’t represent the political and social parties and movements inside the country.” Gesturing towards the base, he said: “Just imagine that. An American flag, and American forces, and they say this is the opposition of Iraq. You can judge the picture for yourself.”

So basically a lot of them are being rubbed up that every time they US go to "Discuss" or "Install" a leader or interim government it's done under the US Flag, waving the "Made in the USA" stamp over any new government you plan to install will completly undo any good you may of done by good selection as people will reject it totally out of principle.
Also doing it without allowing any discussion or even informing the parties you do not consider to be "in your interest" is slapping a lot of people in the face as well as they see this as America cutting them out of any future of Iraq and them deciding who will go into power by only allowing certain parties of their chosing to be included in the dicussions of Iraq's future.
They don't see this as a "Democracy", just another American government by proxy.
They dont expect the country to be back on its feet tommorow but they want the US Troops out so they can start choosing the future themselves with parties they choose without the intimidation or influence of the US.

I'm not attacking the US i'm merly stating what they have been saying and where the US is going horribly horribly wrong in its current policy.
Basically as the US based Iraqi National Group put it,

Concern has been expressed by several pro-US Iraqi exiles that opposition to the US occupation will rapidly spiral out of control if the US imposes its own rule too blatantly. Rahman Aljebouri, a member of the Washington based Iraqi National Group, told the media: “Airlifting Chalabi and his group to Ur sent a very bad message to the people of Iraq. They are not seeing a free-spirited Iraq government—instead they are seeing Iraqis governing who work for the US. We need to get some more familiar faces in here.”

and


Sheik Mohammed Bakr Nasri, a leader of the Islamic fundamentalist Dawa Party who had just returned from exile, told the crowd: “We don’t need years of a transition period....The most dangerous thing is to prolong the occupation period of the coalition forces,” he warned. Another Shiite cleric Sayed Ali al-Musawi bluntly declared: “The United States and Saddam are two faces of one coin. One dictator has replaced another... We don’t want democracy brought by American tanks.”

or add my own comment.

We have two options:

1. Take total control of Iraqi politics, make it like the government of the USA, and make Iraqis into Americans, because thats the best people in charge of our country are realistically capable of.

2. Leave Iraq and take the risk that it falls into the hands of another dictator, who since he has to start the process of tyranny all over again, will have to reinact horrors possible worse than we have seen before.

This isn't an ideal world, I don't think that either of these choices are necessarily appealing, but never the less, one path has to be chosen.

As long as the Iraqis are a) not homicidal to the west; b) not mistreated, oppressed, or deglected by their new government; or c)killed in the tens of thousands by anybody justabout anything else is fing by me. It would be pretty hard for things not to be an improvement of the saddam days.

heyya all :)

if the current situatiom is not the best example why there should be united nations troops
WITH ORDERS TO RETURN FIRE AND USE DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT LIFES,
which comprises of troops from middle east countrys mixed with
all the others then this would be it!

small problem though
most people are rascist and would never combine under the same flag of the united nations!

sad people!
inspite of all the tens of millions of people that have been slaughtered in the name of genocide-revenge.
funny how soo many can not learn by soo much, example.

the most difficult thing for the "installed" government will be trying to fix the lowest price possible with a secret extra pipeline
for the U$A stock piles of oil.
they will most likely bring in mercinaries to lay the secret infastructure so know one will know how much is being pumped out without payment,
even @ rediculose prices set by the consumer!
"WHEN DOES THAT HAPPEN WITH OIL?"
oooooohhhhhh!
when the oil companies are the consumers!

the U$A is not trying to control all the oil
it is just stockpiling it all in its own country
so the only country left with cost efficient oil reserves will be
U$A and maybe China
maybe thats what was being aucostrated in argentina!

naughty naughty oil barons!
Vlad the Impailer would be inviting you round for tea and cakes!

NICOLI TESLA, HAS ALREADY DISCOVERD FREE ENERGY!

but greedy is what greedy does.
greedy greedy greedy
stockmarket going impeedy
all the world
are learning to unfurle
the power of consumer dollars
a lesson the U$A hollars
and now the worm
has taken a turn
your gold glass house
will be ruined to squalla.
push comes to shove
so the lesson of love
is lost to all the perverted
and so the economy will be inverted!

its what history has showen us before
so why will it not happen again?

groove on all
the poem is mine so [and so is time](greedy) dont copy(greedy) it(greedy) greedy greedy :D

and i just made it up
to pollish the cup
to beg for community investment
but instead of investment
they pretend and resent it
and then they try to justify there resentment.

sad Ol world

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

& you would not feel so all alone-
If everybody must get stoned.

-Bob Zimmerman

I like your poem(s) here...there is a lot of truth to them.
I think the best thing you said here however is that,
"funny how soo many can not learn by soo much, example."

That is the funny thing. All the writers and movie makers and wise people in society try to teach an example but nobody learns. There is genocide and holocaust in Germany, Africa and many, many other places and nobody learns anything. All the bad things that come out of hate and not loving others, and nobody learns anything. The real question is why? In the words of Bertolt Brecht, we live in "dark times". Maybe part of the problem is that we die and new people come into existence, so each generation has to face the challenge of learning from or avoiding the lessons of the past anew.

Originally posted by fredx
2. Leave Iraq and take the risk that it falls into the hands of another dictator, who since he has to start the process of tyranny all over again, will have to reinact horrors possible worse than we have seen before.

The path already chosen by the US is long-term dictatorship, similar to Saddam’s regime.

From Wolfowitz lays out plan for Iraq transition to democracy ( http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/sprj.irq.wolfowitz.iraq/index.html):

Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz Thursday said coalition countries will prod Iraq toward democracy, but the Iraqis themselves will have the final say about what form of government replaces Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's regime.

This is based on a lie, since there is no mechanism for the average Iraqi to have their say. The “Iraqis themselves” are those who have a voice by force. Warlords. The US is actively returning the Ba’athists to their former posts, minus Saddam of course. The US will best profit from a puppet dictatorship, like Afghanistan now is, so this path should be no surprise.

I agree, and doubt that Iraqis, given the choice, will likely choose to build a single unified and pro-western state from the wreckage Saddam and his Anglo-American associates have left behind.

Sadly, ahead in Iraq may be shades of the Israeli occupation, and the Lebanese Civil War. It seems everyone knows this is a postcolonialist world, except for minority leaderships in Washington, London, and TelAviv, who want to re-invent it.

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
Bitch about how the Americans bombed Iraq and did it so precisely, that the water/eletricity was still on!

The Americans would never save kids’ lives by leaving the water & electricity on during war. That would be unprofitable. US Focuses on Restoring Iraqi Water, Power (http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=69B9F3CE-8D02-4E96-8B175CD285CC1CD3)

There are plenty of combat engineers available to restore power and water (according to the news media). The problem is combat engineers are not trained to do this type of work. They are trained to build temporary bridges and blow up shit in general.

The Army civil engineers are the ones to do the job and they rely heavily on civilian contractors. The only activities by army civil engineers currently being carried out in Iraq involve the resoration of oil flow.

It appears that our leaders had this "oil before water" plan pre-arranged.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/b03242003_bt146-03.html

Of course, if they can't get the oil going they are so out of pocket already they wont want to throw more down the drain on something stupid like humanitarian aid :rolleyes:

heyya fredx :)
thnx

heres the punch line
i know the "how to" fix it!
and i know where the problem lyes, as such.

but the world is user pays
and most people want to keep health and social services as user pays and then pay the police to move the poor starving to death people out of view!
so there is no point in opposing the rich perverts that dont want to live in a "good" world.
they control all the police and goverments and military!
and they love thier little killing and power and control drug fix that they get from playing thier games.
who am i to try and stop thier fun?
Quote
Maybe part of the problem is that we die and new people come into existence, so each generation has to face the challenge of learning from or avoiding the lessons of the past anew
===
you speak of the cycle of fear!
in what way would you teach fear to poisen the heart of your own children so they may never know love!?
the question itself is poisen to the poisened!
### all the writers and movie stars DO NOT TRY AND PREACH anything unless it will make them more money!
dont try that line with me
look at what is happening to the dixie chicks/susan sarindin
(sorry for any incorrect spelling) as one small example
free speach has been abandoned, by the patriotic fear mongering,
pushed by radical religouse nutters
and those who profes no beliefe seek guns in place of god
and those who profes unthinking beliefe seek guns in the name of god
IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF ALL THE (as you put it) "writers and movie makers and wise people in society"
ALL went on T.V to advertise peaceful resistance!
the world would change in a week or two
but they want to be worshipped(made rich)
and so they covet the curse they complain of
while LEAVING THE OUTSPOKEN ONES TO HANG IN THE WIND like a tin can on a prarie shooting range
fill the truck with cash and drive off into the distance while playing with and profiting from the emotional agrivation they cry about in thier lyrics
mixing up the sexualy confused teenagers so they can feel normal by buying all thier albums
look @ the marketing figures for the age of the buyers
back to topic>>>look at the age of the troops in combat

like the cycle?
the cycle of violent misery
(im not calling you a bad person just thespian-ising the text a little) :D
groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above.

Hey justice!
Why do you post as if "I" have done all of these things. Hell "I " was not even in favor of the war in the first place.
Then you have my apologies...

But now that we are there shit is going to happen, and for the immediate future, combat troops are trying to do a job that they were never trained to do.

This is precisely why they shouldn't be there. They do more harm than good.

Coldrake
Those troops were guarding a meeting of US military officers and Iraqis trying to get the country back on its feet. If US troops had 'walked away' and left those people to mob wrath you would have been claiming the US forces allowed it to happen.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to find somewhere a little more private for that meeting? Why exactly would the jolly liberated folk of Iraq want to disrupt such historical event anyway?
Perhaps the situation was a little mishandled don't you think?

Are you an Iraqi?

No. Just another western dude who's desires will never be satisfied. You know what I mean. Credit card debt. Morgage repayments. A faster computer with direct X9, a bigger SUV, Crack house down the street, Dhamer and Greg, the latest episode of Friends, Britneys latest album, Hollywood blockbusters. Fast food,bottled water. Sundried tomatoes with feta cheese. Scrimping and saving for that next 'essential' purchase. Shampoo with aloa vera, chewing gum and dentists bills. All the wonderful brain numbing things that come from living in a capitalist democracy (is there any other type?) are mine at a price. If I wasn't poor I might even enjoy my freedom.
As it is I'm just a Slave to money till the day I die. I know my life is better than most people in the world could hope for but still there seems to be something missing. Maybe thats why I sometimes envy the addicts who leave used needles in my yard. You got no time for distractions when you got a decent habit.
If this really is the best freedom you have to offer I don't need it. and neither does Iraq.
Still enough of my problems. The latest reality TV show is about to start and I can't pass up the chance to see people even more desperate than myself make fools of themselves for a little bit of money and 5 minutes of fame.

Belive what you want but we are not free.
Dee Cee

That last paragraph is a masterpiece. :)

Coldrake

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those troops were guarding a meeting of US military officers and Iraqis trying to get the country back on its feet. If US troops had 'walked away' and left those people to mob wrath you would have been claiming the US forces allowed it to happen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wouldn't it be a better idea to find somewhere a little more private for that meeting? Why exactly would the jolly liberated folk of Iraq want to disrupt such historical event anyway?
Perhaps the situation was a little mishandled don't you think?

It probably would have, although if a journalist had gotten a whiff of it and it was reported it would have seemed like the military was trying to erect a government under cover.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you an Iraqi?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No. Just another western dude who's desires will never be satisfied. You know what I mean. Credit card debt. Morgage repayments. A faster computer with direct X9, a bigger SUV, Crack house down the street, Dhamer and Greg, the latest episode of Friends, Britneys latest album, Hollywood blockbusters. Fast food,bottled water. Sundried tomatoes with feta cheese. Scrimping and saving for that next 'essential' purchase. Shampoo with aloa vera, chewing gum and dentists bills. All the wonderful brain numbing things that come from living in a capitalist democracy (is there any other type?) are mine at a price. If I wasn't poor I might even enjoy my freedom.
As it is I'm just a Slave to money till the day I die. I know my life is better than most people in the world could hope for but still there seems to be something missing. Maybe thats why I sometimes envy the addicts who leave used needles in my yard. You got no time for distractions when you got a decent habit.
If this really is the best freedom you have to offer I don't need it. and neither does Iraq.
Still enough of my problems. The latest reality TV show is about to start and I can't pass up the chance to see people even more desperate than myself make fools of themselves for a little bit of money and 5 minutes of fame.

Belive what you want but we are not free.
Dee Cee

Actually, I wasn't trying to be smart, I just wasn't sure from your comment if you might be from the Middle East.

I've avoided the credit card debt, do have the mortgage payment, and the SUV payment (2 more months and I'm clear), too computer illiterate to give a shit about my computer, fuckin crackheads everywhere here too, don't care for Friends or Dahmer and Greg?, The Shield is my one show other than the Discovery Channel or A&E, Britney?...I'm too old, I prefer old Cream or Zeppelin, yeah Hollywood blockbusters, what can you say?, fast food?...no, bottled water?...not gonna pay more for French water than i do for gasoline per ounce, sundried tomato and feta?...damn man, what crowds do you hang with?:D ...sushi freak myself, reality tv?...:eek: yikes man! No wonder you're depressed. Do what an old army buddy of mine did. He gave it all up, divorced his wife (no children), sold what he had left, hitchhiked to Costa Rica, and lives in the mountains in a dirt floored shack. Says he's never been happier. I prefer the sins of capitalism, myself.

I hear some people here like DeeCee complaining that she is not free and to a certain extent she could make a good argument how she is a slave to the system. I know the political philosopher Hannah Arendt, said that in order to be free in today's society (in the modern world) you have to have some authority, i.e. you have to be a professor, or a CEO or someone with power, so in that case there is nothing more absurd than saying that we are bringing freedom to the Iraqi people, when most people in America, the richest and most powerful country in the world, are not free. What we did was to liberate them from a dictator, we did not secure their freedom, if what you mean by freedom is what people in positions of authority have.

I understand what I am saying is not altogther clear here, but take into consideration that there can be alot of things that we mean when we say we are free. Freedom from necessity is basically being able to secure your survival without having having to work another day in your life. We could put a price tag around that for the average American to be in my humble estimation 2-3 million. "A million dollars isn't what it was yesterday" as the rapper Nas remarks in his song "the Cross". So another words freedom from necessity= being rich. Of course, I think there are other important freedoms.

There is the freedom of speech and that is probably the last power that has been left to the common Joe without enough money to influence politics by lobbying. It is one we definitely can't take for granted and must protect. That we can and have said mostly anything bad you can say about George Bush and his cabinet cronies is really a testament that the US may be one of the highest civilizations up to date but that doesn't necessarily overcome the lack of the common Joe's ability to act freely to persuade the government or "to form a government of the people by the people" which clearly we don't have anymore, having a government of the elite instead, which of course is not so uncommon in history. Still I think a major problem stems not from the fact that we don't or can't have power, but that the majority are in their "petty" slumbers and choose not to act. On the other hand, it didn't seem that if every middle-class person in our country would have held up a anti-war flag, it would have stopped our leaders from declaring war. It doesn't seem like they listen to us, only like they do what they want to do and then run propanganda campaigns to make anti-war protestors, regular joes, actors, musicians and politicians alike (i.e. Daschle) look like idiots.

Still I am reading "On Revolution" by Hannah Arendt and I think she seems to think that freedom and public happiness are tied in together in that our founding fathers really saw the importance of coming out of your house, going to the town meeting which was a step away from the government council, and being seen and heard and respected in the flesh, whether you were man, woman or child, to say the way you wanted things to be and to have your will be put into action. The founding fathers saw this as the real essense of freedom and happiness. In Today's world, we are strapped in front of a tv, being spoon fed insidious advertisements by greedy and venemous companies and George Bush tells us that is freedom.

The democracy of ancient Athens is another example although maybe in some ways a evolutionary step behind the good things that our founding fathers initiated. In their democracy, only men were allowed to be citizens and on top of that only free men were allowed to engage in politics (the slaves were the property of the citizens and sadly the woman to a certain extent also were). Their definition of a free man is someone that had time to think whether it was leisure time or otherwise, i.e. shephard had time to think so he could take part in politics where as a craftsmen perhaps could not). These "free men" were the politicians and the meet in a the rotunda to decide on policy. These "free men" were also in a sense free because they were seen, heard and were respected by their equals, who could not boss each other around or tell each other what to do. They had a true democracy. It is sad that besides what our founding fathers had going alive for a short time, before as Arendt says" its treasure was lost", the most "enlightened" society to ever find its way in to being was last seen about 2,000 + years ago and we humans have never been able to come close since.

This stuff is all off the top of my head, but I believe it is all key to what is wrong in America right now and why we are in the situation we are in with Iraq, which by no means I am saying is a country of innocents, but that is a matter for another day.

As it is I'm just a Slave to money till the day I die.

In the same way that I am a slave to metal.
Nobody is pointing a submachine gun to your head and forcing you to desire a bigger condo, and I highly doubt that someone has kidnapped you and is forcing you to watch "Friends" in some obscene parody of the Broken movie.

Belive what you want but we are not free.

To call yourself a slave to your society is accurate, but inept. You submit quite happily, Della-Dee - so quit whining.

If you want to pull a Tyler Durden, go the fuck ahead. If you want to pull a Xev and drop out of school just to be sure you're not being controlled by someone else's ideals, hey, rent is expensive and I could use a roomate.

This sounds harsher than I intend it to. I agree with your ultimate point - however, I've pursued my realization and found that you can find happiness in slavery.

Ultimately, you have the choice to be a helot or a human. This is the highest use of democracy - allowing a person to pursue the road to becoming human and overhuman.

Don't denigrate it by whining.

If guys could get girls without a job we wouldnt work. Or atleast I wouldnt. :(

I would go to art school instead of engeenering then :-P

WHile I would jump at the chance to trade my genitals for a few billion dollars and a membership to the illuminati. My megalomania is substantially stronger than my sex drive.

*Shrugs*

I can't pay rent, food or water bills without a job. Basic necessities of life. I mean it sucks, kinda, that I can't just take off into the forest with my gun and some traps, and sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't just drop everything in my town, blow my savings on a bike and just uproot to wherever the fuck my inclination takes me.

So why don't I? I'm afraid of poverty. I'm choosing to be a slave to my fears and my culture.

A fault which is mine and only mine.

If you want to pull a Tyler Durden, go the fuck ahead.

:D

slave to the ryhthim
groovey song
great artist

i guess the one defining factor that differntiates civilised slavery is that we can just stop doing anything and sit down and die!

a slave would be tortured or killed for such behaviour.

or is that what insane asylums are?

we can also start a group of people who want to talk about things that do not conform with the current leadership.

freedom of speach is a bit of an exageration though.

who is realy pulling the strings is rarely discoverd.

and yes, ! one more little thing i just got reminded of,
life is seen to be a thing to be preserved to some extent.
even if it is @ cost to the socialist civilisation.
oh is that what socialism is?
the best working example we have currently anywho.
and does not fit with capitalism because survival of the fittest is just another name for WAR.
hence majority of crime in all cultures regardless of self proclaimed political type.

groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

i guess the one defining factor that differntiates civilised slavery is that we can just stop doing anything and sit down and die!
a slave would be tortured or killed for such behaviour.

It would so totally suck to be tortured or killed for dying.

heyya Xev :)
i feel privialiged that i can choose to laugh instead of crying
which is what the realisation of such things entails.

just a thought about the quote you are currently posting...

"Without the threat of punishment, there is no joy in escape"
--Kobo Abe

this is the disfunction of self flagilation?
christian self destructive sociatal deconstruction-izing self fulfilling prophacey.

and so the christians aswell as other religions that follow such beliefe create the devil from thier own thoughts!

very sad

i.e
"would you like some chocolate"?
ohhh i shouldn't
but i will
i know it is bad for me
its ok to be bad now and again
i will pay for being bad later= (i will create the devil i fear and manifest it amoung my society)

yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
is all i have to say about that!

very rellavant to the current political climate of religouse hipocracey.

groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above

i feel privialiged that i can choose to laugh instead of crying
which is what the realisation of such things entails.

The realization of the fact that you can kill people after they're dead?
Yeah, it is a funny concept.

this is the disfunction of self flagilation?

Self-flagilation? Hitting oneself with flags?

Is that some deviant sexual practice or a way of protesting the war in Iraq?

christian self destructive sociatal deconstruction-izing self fulfilling prophacey.

Pistachio-almond double chocalate mocha ice cream.

Is there a point to that random string of words?

and so the christians aswell as other religions that follow such beliefe create the devil from thier own thoughts!

Kobo Abe was a Japanese existentialist, not a Christian. You're thinking of Kierkegaard.

But the joy in escape does itself stem from the threat of being punished for such escape. We look back upon what we were, and we smile for having eluded what we could have been.

Are we reviled when we transgress? So much the better - it gives our transcendence higher value.

Society would not punish us significantly for the breaking of insignificant values. Thus the odium in which we are held is directly proportional to the value of our transgression.
The Marquis de Sade said it better than I ever could:

"The degradation which characterizes the state into which you plunge him by punishing him pleases, amuses, and delights him. Deep down he enjoys having gone so far as to deserve being treated in such a way."

heyya Xev :)
thnx
very insightful stuff
i will always protest against war as a means of doing things that can be achived through peaceful acts.
war in my beliefe should refer to the act of selfdefence while under attack.

war is hell....?
hhhmmmm
what does that mean?

groove on all :)

peace light truth love
the path to that we hold above
ps yo Xev so you dont eat chocolate?