This is the quality healthcare system that the United States pays 15 percent of it's Gross Domestic Product for each year:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/01/hospital.death.ap/index.html

she was probably fairly poor.

Shocking!
So little respect for people.
So HUGE F. RESPECT for MONEY.

We pay twice as much as any other nation per person, and yet have an average level of quality of a country that pays 1/40 as much as we do! Says allot about capitalist medicine.

And these Republicans say we have no lines. Obviously, they have never been to an emergency room.

It was the people who work at the place that did nothing.

Long waiting lines in emergency rooms is not an uncommon event no matter where you are in the United States and it have been so for a long time.

Maybe she wanted to die on the floor like that? Then again maybe not.

I would like to hear from all those touting how about how great the American healthcare system is respond to this. I am sure they will try to down play it.

That happened at a Community Hospital. That's why I don't want socialized medicine. When you go to a community Hospital you wait for hours for any and everything. I've never appreciated my Kaiser coverage until I had to take a friend to a Community Hospital. The attitudes of the staff members was lackadaisical to say the least. It's like going to the DMV, the service is impersonal, and you're treated as if you don't even exist. When a Hospital isn't privatized, and it's funded by the tax payers, the Hospital doesn't give a damn how they treat you, because regardless if you die or not, their Government check is guaranteed to come. A private Hospital would never be able to get away with half the shit that happens at a Community Hospital.

If its that bad in America you should see what other poorer countries are dealing with. I've seen allot worse with hundreds of people lying outside the hospital on the grounds waiting just to get inside!

Ganymede, waiting times are lengthing at all hospitals. I have a bit of a different experience than you. Back when I was a paramedic, the Kaiser ER had a bad reputation as opposed to community hospitals and other private hospitals. Things may have changed as I have not been around a Kaiser facility in decades.

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2008/01/all_patients_ar.html

Waiting times are getting longer for all patients regardless of medical urgency or insurance or location.

I think this happened in a psychiatric ward. She had already been admitted.

When you say things like "American health care at it's finest" it merely serves to show how brainwashed and ignorant you are.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19809557/

GIBSONIA, Pa. - A bright girl with dark curls crowning her face, Matisse Reid has been sick all her life with a rare disorder that prevents her body from absorbing nutrients.

She nibbles on beet salad for lunch, but Matisse’s real meal — fats, nutrients and fluids — come from an intravenous line running from her backpack to a vein in her stomach. After six years of IV feedings, the pressure on her liver is becoming life-threatening and she is running out of usable veins. Often, she is doubled over with chronic pain and vomiting.

After months of fundraising in their native New Zealand, Wayne and Jodee Reid, Matisse’s parents, packed up their family of six and traveled 8,500 miles to Pittsburgh for a multi-organ transplant that could save their 6-year-old daughter’s life.

sure oil whatever you say

When you say things like "American health care it's finest" it merely serves to show how brainwashed and ignorant you are.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19809557/

We are talking about average quality of care, every one with enough money goes for the best health care that money can buy, and that is usually in the USA, but for the rest of us we get crap. Also specialist for specific procedures exist all over the world, its just most of them work in or go to the USA were they can make it big serving clients that can pay, most of them could give a fuck about general care for the citizens of the USA.

Ganymede, waiting times are lengthing at all hospitals. I have a bit of a different experience than you. Back when I was a paramedic, the Kaiser ER had a bad reputation as opposed to community hospitals and other private hospitals. Things may have changed as I have not been around a Kaiser facility in decades.

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2008/01/all_patients_ar.html

Waiting times are getting longer for all patients regardless of medical urgency or insurance or location.

I agree, Kaisers ER definitely has room for improvement. However, when I went to a Kaiser ER, I only had to wait like 30 minutes. Our local community hospital takes at least 12 hours to even get a room.

Well, I am not sure how to evaluate the quality of the system. especially based on only few examples. The main problem (I think) is still that you pay more in the US for basically the same treatment (or often less) than you get in Germany. I am getting benefits, so I personally do not pay that much. But the overall costs (including what I get from the institute) is about double that what in Germany the employer and me paid together.
The main reason is probably that it is mandatory to have health insurance (so everyone pays into the pool) and the insurance company are not allowed to make endless profits, at least not by the insurance pay alone (I am not sure whether there is a similar rule/law in the US). And in many cases retirees do not get benefits anymore, at an age where they actually need it most.
Free market has many advantages, though I am not sure whether it should be taken to health issues. Here the insurer haven an unfair power (as about anyone is bound to get ill at some point).

I was just wondering, does anyone has any numbers how expensinve it is in the US to insure, say, a family with one or two kids (without benefits, just from the own pocket).

Well, I am not sure how to evaluate the quality of the system. especially based on only few examples. The main problem (I think) is still that you pay more in the US for basically the same treatment (or often less) than you get in Germany. I am getting benefits, so I personally do not pay that much. But the overall costs (including what I get from the institute) is about double that what in Germany the employer and me paid together.
The main reason is probably that it is mandatory to have health insurance (so everyone pays into the pool) and the insurance company are not allowed to make endless profits, at least not by the insurance pay alone (I am not sure whether there is a similar rule/law in the US). And in many cases retirees do not get benefits anymore, at an age where they actually need it most.
Free market has many advantages, though I am not sure whether it should be taken to health issues. Here the insurer haven an unfair power (as about anyone is bound to get ill at some point).

I was just wondering, does anyone has any numbers how expensinve it is in the US to insure, say, a family with one or two kids (without benefits, just from the own pocket).

I think you need to check the World Heath Organization (http://www.who.int/en/) they should have the stats.

Cost of coverage depends on where you live, pre-existing conditions and type of insurance and coverage. But I would estimate, based upon my coverage, anywhere between 600-1200 dollars per month and annual increases of 10-15 percent.

I think you need to check the World Heath Organization (http://www.who.int/en/) they should have the stats.

Last I checked the World Health Organization had the United States just behind Cuba in healthcare quality...about 60 if my memory serves me well.

Last I checked the World Health Organization had the United States just behind Cuba in healthcare quality...about 60 if my memory serves me well.

I think Cuba and the USA were at 37-38th place. The total cost of health care in the USA is nearly $8000, France which ranks 1st place by WHO is 2nd place in health care spending at ~$4000 per person.

But I would estimate, based upon my coverage, anywhere between 600-1200 dollars per month and annual increases of 10-15 percent.

Hmm OK. Bloody expensive. On a postdoctoral salary one would not be able to pay for it easily.

Hmm OK. Bloody expensive. On a postdoctoral salary one would not be able to pay for it easily.

And then if you have a serious/expensive illness you can expect the insurance company to try to disqualify you.

Yes the US Ranks 38 out of 191 by the WHO. There are a lot of conservative groups our there trying to debunk the WHO ranking of the US Healthcare system. But regardless of how you rank quality it is the single most expensive healthcare system in the world.

joe you will never win. I thought it would be american buiness's who would start to complaine about there workers being sick all the time or losing limbs that could have been saved and the costs to that buiness that would push for high quality universal health care but to be honest i dont think so anymore. US companies are no more interested in there own citizans than they are about the citizans of any OTHER country.

My ownly suggestion to you is try to get a visa and get the fuck out of there

joe you will never win. I thought it would be american buiness's who would start to complaine about there workers being sick all the time or losing limbs that could have been saved and the costs to that buiness that would push for high quality universal health care but to be honest i dont think so anymore. US companies are no more interested in there own citizans than they are about the citizans of any OTHER country.

My ownly suggestion to you is try to get a visa and get the fuck out of there

There is a global labor glut right now. So labor is really not an issue for most American busineses as they can export most jobs and get the government to subsidize the costs associated with transfering the job to a foriegn country. Labor is less and less of a factor in production and that trend will likely continue.

hey if you have skills (ANY skills) come to australia. The companies here are DESPRATE for workers

We have skills and labor shortages in every sector from health, hospitality, retail, farming, to mining.

Its caused by the fact that the mining companies are draining labor out of the other sectors

Last I checked the World Health Organization had the United States just behind Cuba in healthcare quality...about 60 if my memory serves me well.
That ranking is total crap. Part of the reason for our relatively poor score is that we don't have a socialized system. They count that against us when evaluating the US healthcare system.

It hardly seems fair to take off points for not having a socialized system and then point to our low score as evidence we need socialized medicine.
That happened at a Community Hospital. That's why I don't want socialized medicine. When you go to a community Hospital you wait for hours for any and everything. I've never appreciated my Kaiser coverage until I had to take a friend to a Community Hospital. The attitudes of the staff members was lackadaisical to say the least. It's like going to the DMV, the service is impersonal, and you're treated as if you don't even exist. When a Hospital isn't privatized, and it's funded by the tax payers, the Hospital doesn't give a damn how they treat you, because regardless if you die or not, their Government check is guaranteed to come. A private Hospital would never be able to get away with half the shit that happens at a Community Hospital.
Exactly! This is an example of what is right with the American Healthcare System. Go socialized, and service at all hospitals in the US will fall to the abysmal level seen in this story.

When I go to the ER (at our local for profit hospital), you're seen quickly. A one hour wait is considered pretty bad. Usually it's less than that. Want quicker care? Call the ambulance and you'll have someone there in about three minutes.

You see that women having a seizure and dying on the floor of the hospital waiting room? Vote in socialized medicine and THAT'S YOUR FUTURE.

mad thats crap i hate to tell you. We have a mainly public system and though there have been some problems in specific hopsitals this sort of thing just doenst happen. The worst case i have seen recently has been a women who misscaried while waiting to be seen because misscarages wernt concidered high catigory cases (this has been fixed now in that any pregnant women is admited straight to obstetrics rather than going through A&E)

This is an example of what is right with the American Healthcare System. Go socialized, and service at all hospitals in the US will fall to the abysmal level seen in this story. How do you figure? Are you somehow claiming that a community hospital trying to survive and provide care in the middle of the US mess is "socialized" ?
mad thats crap i hate to tell you. You want to be careful here. You can't compare a socialized system under a competent, representative government with what a government crippled by people like Madanthony would provide in the US.

The US is full of people who look at a system in which they are paying twice as much for equivalent care as anybody else on the planet, in order to maintain the privilege of denying such care to the undeserving, and call it the best in the world.

oh well..... in the land of freedom, I guess the you have the freedom to ignore anyone and everyone...... even if they are dying on the floor of your hospitals..

to be honest im surprised there havent been criminal charges come out of this. In australia at least anyone licenced as a doctor can be charged with malpractive if they refuse to help someone in an emergency wether they get paid or not. The only doctors excused from this are interns. It makes life interesting for ambos because you have alot of doctors who stop to render assistance in car acidents and you then have to work out if they have any emergency medical training at all or if they are just good as a drip stand. This can be VERY interesting because apart from the medical director of the ambulance service (who ambos SHOULD know:p) there are also the head of the emerg at Womens and kids, the RAH and Flinders med who could rock up and any ambo who is stupid enough to tell one of THEM they dont know what they are talking about is in for a shock:p

SAAS's medical director was giving us a lecture at uni and he told us a really funny story about when he was working for the ambulance service in melbourne. He was at the zoo and this women colapsed having a sizure. He was calmly watching her until people started wanting to DO things and he decided he better go over there. The ambos rock up and by this time the womens siezures have stoped and they think it was just her fainting from the heat. Hugh Grantham tells them that they should really take her to hospital because it was a siezure not a faint. The 2 ambos tell him he doesnt know what hes talking about and she will be fine. He tells them hes a doctor and they really SHOULD take her to hospital and they still insist he doesnt know what hes talking about.

He says to them "you know that little box on your medical sheet" (the area where they put the name of the "third" if the crew has one) "write in these numbers" and he gave them his employee number as the medical director of the victorian ambulance service and turned to them and said "NOW TAKE HER TO THE HOSPITAL":P

That ranking is total crap. Part of the reason for our relatively poor score is that we don't have a socialized system. They count that against us when evaluating the US healthcare system.

It hardly seems fair to take off points for not having a socialized system and then point to our low score as evidence we need socialized medicine.

Exactly! This is an example of what is right with the American Healthcare System. Go socialized, and service at all hospitals in the US will fall to the abysmal level seen in this story.

When I go to the ER (at our local for profit hospital), you're seen quickly. A one hour wait is considered pretty bad. Usually it's less than that. Want quicker care? Call the ambulance and you'll have someone there in about three minutes.

You see that women having a seizure and dying on the floor of the hospital waiting room? Vote in socialized medicine and THAT'S YOUR FUTURE.

I don't get your comment Mad. This happened with our current healthcare system. The WHO measures the quality of the heatlhcare system for all citizens not just the wealthy. So if you want to exclude all but the wealthy from your analysis of a healthcare system...then your arguement has some merit. But the WHO study includes healthcare for all citizens/residents not just the wealth and that I think is a better measure.

But it would be interesting to measure the healthcare quality for wealthy and middle class people across national boundaries. I don't think the US would fare much better in that kind of study either. But there is no data to support that feeling just a hunch based on personal experience.

Speaking from experience, wealthier people get better rooms, better surroundings in the healthcare system but I do not believe that translates to better medical care.

Mad unintentionally brings up a good point, we are paying more than twice what any other nation pays for healthcare and only providing full coverage to a fraction of our population. So that makes the US Healthcare system even more expensive as other countries provide full coverage to 100 percent of their residents. YOW, now that is expensive!

We pay twice as much as any other nation per person

How much ?

15 percent of the value of all goods and services produced in the United States is spent on healthcare for its residents versus about 5 percent for other industrialized countries.

15 percent of the value of all goods and services produced in the United States is spent on healthcare for its residents versus about 5 percent for other industrialized countries.

But how much does a citizen have to pay, say monthly, for health insurance ?

But how much does a citizen have to pay, say monthly, for health insurance ?


That will vary from citizen to citizen. Ultimately 15 percent of everything all citizens produce is used to pay healthcare costs. Now some citizens will pay more, some less. Some of it will be paid in the form of taxes. Some of it will be paid in insurance premiums and some of it directly to providers. I don't know that you can break it down to that kind of granularity.

The overall tax burden in the United States for the middle classes is pretty heavy. Tax money is used to train medical staff. Tax money is used to fund medical and drug research. Tax money is spent regulating the industry. Tax money is spent for medical care of the indigent and elderly on Medicare.

Below is an article from the Consumers Union that just speaks to healtcare premiums:

http://www.consumersunion.org/health/0122exec.htm

An estimated 11 million nonelderly American families, one out of eight, spent more than 10 percent of their income on premiums (not paid by their employers) plus out-of-pocket costs in 1996. Four out of five of these families had health insurance for every member of the family.

Families with income below poverty have direct premium payments plus out-of-pocket costs, on average that are about 16 percent of family income.

Over 20 percent of families headed by people 55 to 64 and more than half of the families headed by people over 65 pay over 10 percent of their income on health care, when out-of-pocket costs and premiums they pay directly are included.

About 27 million families, one out of every three nonelderly families, spent more than 10 percent of their income on health care when using the most inclusive definition of health care costs, including out-of-pocket costs, premiums they pay directly, and premiums they pay indirectly as lower wages when their employer pays the insurance premium.

Families with income between $30,000 and $40,000 (families at median income) spend on average about $1,500 (4.5 percent of their income) on premiums (themselves) and out-of-pocket payments. This is in addition to what their employers spend on premiums, which costs these families, on average, an additional $1,900 (5.5 percent of their income) as reduced wages.

To this you have to add the Social Security Healthcare, indigent healthcare, military healthcare, medical research, drug research, and medical training that is passed to citizens in the form of taxes.

That will vary from citizen to citizen. Ultimately 15 percent of everything all citizens produce is used to pay healthcare costs. Now some citizens will pay more, some less. Some of it will be paid in the form of taxes. Some of it will be paid in insurance premiums and some of it directly to providers. I don't know that you can break it down to that kind of granularity.

The overall tax burden in the United States for the middle classes is pretty heavy. Tax money is used to train medical staff. Tax money is used to fund medical and drug research. Tax money is spent regulating the industry. Tax money is spent for medical care of the indigent and elderly on Medicare.

Below is an article from the Consumers Union that just speaks to healtcare premiums:

http://www.consumersunion.org/health/0122exec.htm

An estimated 11 million nonelderly American families, one out of eight, spent more than 10 percent of their income on premiums (not paid by their employers) plus out-of-pocket costs in 1996. Four out of five of these families had health insurance for every member of the family.

Families with income below poverty have direct premium payments plus out-of-pocket costs, on average that are about 16 percent of family income.

Over 20 percent of families headed by people 55 to 64 and more than half of the families headed by people over 65 pay over 10 percent of their income on health care, when out-of-pocket costs and premiums they pay directly are included.

About 27 million families, one out of every three nonelderly families, spent more than 10 percent of their income on health care when using the most inclusive definition of health care costs, including out-of-pocket costs, premiums they pay directly, and premiums they pay indirectly as lower wages when their employer pays the insurance premium.

Families with income between $30,000 and $40,000 (families at median income) spend on average about $1,500 (4.5 percent of their income) on premiums (themselves) and out-of-pocket payments. This is in addition to what their employers spend on premiums, which costs these families, on average, an additional $1,900 (5.5 percent of their income) as reduced wages.

To this you have to add the Social Security Healthcare, indigent healthcare, military healthcare, medical research, drug research, and medical training that is passed to citizens in the form of taxes.

Looks like it's about the same here. I pay 110 euro a month. That's only social security, and it doesn't even cover everything a 100%.. well almost nothing actually.
Reduced wages seem comparable as well.

Social Security in the United States is 15.6 percent of income.

Social Security in the United States is 15.6 percent of income.

That's all-in.

Then you have your healthcare premiums, and deductables on top of that. And your employer sometimes contributes to your healthcare insurance...percentages vary.

But like I said, overall the average individual pays 15 percent of income for medical care in one form or another. Not all Medicare tax goes for healthcare.

Then you have your healthcare premiums, and deductables on top of that. And your employer sometimes contributes to your healthcare insurance...percentages vary.

But like I said, overall the average individual pays 15 percent for medical care in one form or another.

What is the actual number people personally have to pay monthly, the single payment ?

What is the actual number people personally have to pay monthly, the single payment ?

I don't know Enmos, and I don't really care. Most people pay for it out of their pay checks and most people get paid every two weeks. Premiums are deducted directly from wages, in most cases.

Bottom line it is expensive, and getting more expensive.

I don't know Enmos, and I don't really care. Most people pay for it out of their pay checks and most people get paid every two weeks. Premiums are deducted directly from wages, in most cases.

Bottom line it is expensive, and getting more expensive.

Ok. But how do you know it's more expensive than in other countries ?
It's rather expensive here as well. And the last coupe of years the cost has shot up tremendously.

Take a look at the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care

Scroll down to the Economics section and you will get some current numbers that will answer your questions. There are lots of articles on the topic. But you will notice in the chart the United States is the most expensive of all the countries listed. It also has the highest infant mortality rate (which is a standard measure of quality) and the shortest average life spans of all the industrial countries listed.

This link is not in anyway associated with the WHO healthcare rankings which Mad complained about because he felt it unfairly peanalized the United States for not having socialized medicine.

The United States likes to think it has a free market for healthcare. In reality it does not. Markets are not competitive, artificial restrictions are placed on healthcare markets by government action which restrict supply at the expense of the consumer and benefit suppliers of healthcare services and products.

One of two things must happen in the United States...government takeover of the industry like a monopoly or the government needs to stop unreasonable restrictions of healthcare services and goods which benefit healthcare suppliers and producers at the expense of consumers. In other words a market that is really free, not one that corrals consumers and forces them to eat from the same trough.

I would support either. But it is getting kind of late in the game for the later solution and our healthcare needs are immediate. Second, once you put the special interests in line I am not certian we could keep them there. If a few years they would be back in Washington trying to re-engineer the system to their benefit again.

Take a look at the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care

Scroll down to the Economics section and you will get some current numbers that will answer your questions. There are lots of articles on the topic. But you will notice in the chart the United States is the most expensive of all the countries listed. It also has the highest infant mortality rate (which is a standard measure of quality) and the shortest average life spans of all the industrial countries listed.

This link is not in anyway associated with the WHO healthcare rankings which Mad complained about because he felt it unfairly peanalized the United States for not having socialized medicine.

The United States likes to think it has a free market for healthcare. In reality it does not. Markets are not competitive, artificial restrictions are placed on healthcare markets by government action which restrict supply at the expense of the consumer and benefit suppliers of healthcare services and products.

One of two things must happen in the United States...government takeover of the industry like a monopoly or the government needs to stop unreasonable restrictions of healthcare services and goods which benefit healthcare suppliers and producers at the expense of consumers. In other words a market that is really free, not one that corrals consumers and forces them to eat from the same trough.

Out-of-pocket expenditure as percentage of private expenditure on health (2005):
Netherlands......................21.90
United States of America.....23.90
http://www.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?strISO3_select=AUS,BELCMR, CAN,CZE,DNK,FIN,FRA,DEU,GRC,HUN,ISL,IRL,ITA,JPN,LU X,MEX,NLD,NZL,NOR,POL,PRT,KOR,SVK,ESP,SWE,CHE,TUR, GBR,USA&strIndicator_select=NumberOfPhysicians,DensityOfPh ysicians,NumberOfNurses,DensityOfNurses,NumberOfMi dwives,DensityOfMidwives,NumberOfDentists,DensityO fDentists,NumberOfPharmacists,DensityOfPharmacists ,NumberOfEnvironmentalHealthWorkers,DensityOfEnvir onmentalHealthWorkers,NumberOfCommunityHealthWorke rs,DensityOfCommunityHealthWorkers,NumberOfLabWork ers,DensityOfLabWorkers,NumberOfOtherHealthWorkers ,DensityOfOtherHealthWorkers,NumberOfHealthSupport Workers,DensityOfHealthSupportWorkers,TotEOHPctOfG DP,GovEOHPctOfTotEOH,PrvEOHPctOfTotEOH,GovEOHPctOf TotGovExp,ExtResPctOfTotEOH,SocSecEOHPctOfGovEOH,O opEOHPctOfPrvEOH,PrepaidPctOfPrvEOH,PcTotEOHinUSD, PcTotEOHinIntD,PcGovEOHinUSD,PcGovEOHinIntD,VRCove rage,HospitalBeds&intYear_select=latest&fixed=indicator&language=english

Out-of-pocket expenditure has risen tremendously the last couple of years, especially this year (+256 euro/year).

From all the other data on that page I must conclude, and agree with you, that the USA's healthcare system blows.

Out-of-pocket expenditure as percentage of private expenditure on health (2005):
Netherlands......................21.90
United States of America.....23.90
http://www.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?strISO3_select=AUS,BELCMR, CAN,CZE,DNK,FIN,FRA,DEU,GRC,HUN,ISL,IRL,ITA,JPN,LU X,MEX,NLD,NZL,NOR,POL,PRT,KOR,SVK,ESP,SWE,CHE,TUR, GBR,USA&strIndicator_select=NumberOfPhysicians,DensityOfPh ysicians,NumberOfNurses,DensityOfNurses,NumberOfMi dwives,DensityOfMidwives,NumberOfDentists,DensityO fDentists,NumberOfPharmacists,DensityOfPharmacists ,NumberOfEnvironmentalHealthWorkers,DensityOfEnvir onmentalHealthWorkers,NumberOfCommunityHealthWorke rs,DensityOfCommunityHealthWorkers,NumberOfLabWork ers,DensityOfLabWorkers,NumberOfOtherHealthWorkers ,DensityOfOtherHealthWorkers,NumberOfHealthSupport Workers,DensityOfHealthSupportWorkers,TotEOHPctOfG DP,GovEOHPctOfTotEOH,PrvEOHPctOfTotEOH,GovEOHPctOf TotGovExp,ExtResPctOfTotEOH,SocSecEOHPctOfGovEOH,O opEOHPctOfPrvEOH,PrepaidPctOfPrvEOH,PcTotEOHinUSD, PcTotEOHinIntD,PcGovEOHinUSD,PcGovEOHinIntD,VRCove rage,HospitalBeds&intYear_select=latest&fixed=indicator&language=english

Out-of-pocket expenditure has risen tremendously the last couple of years, especially this year (+256 euro/year).

From all the other data on that page I must conclude, and agree with you, that the USA's healthcare system blows.

The number you quoted is really not comparable to the United States as the number you cited insures everyone. In the United States healthcare is not provided to everyone, only to those with insurance.

In the United States healthcare is not provided to everyone, only to those with insurance.

Huh.. of course. Same here, only having basic health insurance is compulsory here.
It's illegal not to be insured.

What is the actual number people personally have to pay monthly, the single payment ?The reason your question is difficult to answer is that we have a private system with a variety of providers all charging different prices. You might as well ask what is the amount each citizen pays for a meal at a restaurant. It varies widely.

If you have a union job with good benefits, traditionally you'd pay nothing for your healthcare. The employer would cover the whole thing. Nowadays even people with union jobs are being asked to pay part of the cost (usually a VERY SMALL PART), yet they scream bloody murder over this not realizing what a good deal they're getting.

I, for instance, being self employed used to pay over $1000 per month for insurance. I've since changed to a medical savings account with a high deductible policy for major problems, and that's brought it down to about $500 per month.

The reason your question is difficult to answer is that we have a private system with a variety of providers all charging different prices. You might as well ask what is the amount each citizen pays for a meal at a restaurant. It varies widely.
We have the same thing here since a couple of years.
Only basic health insurance doesn't vary much between the different providers.

If you have a union job with good benefits, traditionally you'd pay nothing for your healthcare. The employer would cover the whole thing. Nowadays even people with union jobs are being asked to pay part of the cost (usually a VERY SMALL PART), yet they scream bloody murder over this not realizing what a good deal they're getting.
That's not how it works here. The employers pay (I think it's) 55%, the rest is private expenses.
The only employer that covers all the expenses is the army.

I, for instance, being self employed used to pay over $1000 per month for insurance. I've since changed to a medical savings account with a high deductible policy for major problems, and that's brought it down to about $500 per month.
Wow. Ok, that's a lot.
Reasonable healthcare for selfemployed people would cost something like 250 euro here (= 397.13 US Dollars). Of course that isn't the most expensive coverage you can get.

The reason your question is difficult to answer is that we have a private system with a variety of providers all charging different prices. You might as well ask what is the amount each citizen pays for a meal at a restaurant. It varies widely.

If you have a union job with good benefits, traditionally you'd pay nothing for your healthcare. The employer would cover the whole thing. Nowadays even people with union jobs are being asked to pay part of the cost (usually a VERY SMALL PART), yet they scream bloody murder over this not realizing what a good deal they're getting.

I, for instance, being self employed used to pay over $1000 per month for insurance. I've since changed to a medical savings account with a high deductible policy for major problems, and that's brought it down to about $500 per month.

From the numbers previously quoted from the Consumers Union the employee portion is about 50 per cent and growing. But it maters little, health insurance is a cost of labor. If the employer were not using the money to pay for health insurance, it would be used for wages. So ultimately the employee pays 100 percent of the healthcare cost regardless of how the accounting is booked. And the most alarming issue with healthcare costs is that that it is growing at multiples of the inflation number. This simply is not sustainable and it adversely impacts trade. Goods produced in the United States are more expensive because of healtcare costs associated with production in the United States.

From the numbers previously quoted from the Consumers Union the employee portion is about 50 per cent and growing. But it maters little, health insurance is a cost of labor. If the employer were not using the money to pay for health insurance, it would be used for wages. So ultimately the employee pays 100 percent of the healthcare cost regardless of how the accounting is booked.
Well, actually, it does matter. If the employee thinks healthcare is "free" he's going to behave differently than if there were some cost. It was this perception that healthcare was free that allowed it to get so out of control in the first place.

It all goes back to WW2 when the government stupidly imposed a wage freeze. To get around that, employers began offering benefits.

So it's all Hitler's fault, really. Damned Nazis. Still fucking things up to this day!

Reasonable healthcare for selfemployed people would cost something like 250 euro here (= 397.13 US Dollars). Of course that isn't the most expensive coverage you can get.

I happen to have a comparative figure as I did postdoc both in Germany and USA. The deduction from the salary was higher in Germany (around 200 EUR) as compared to the US (100 USD). However in Germany the employer paid around 50% making the total cost 400 EUR (salary dependent). If my wife was not employed she could get insurance via me for free. This includes dentist and vision.

In the US however the institute is paying in addition t 800 USD per month, making it a total cost of 900 USD (as compared to the 400 EUR) in Germany. This does not include dentist and vision (which adds another 100 USD or so).
A conversion from USD to EUR is not easily done as the EUR is disproportionally stronger than the USD, but in any case the health insurance is much more expensive than in Germany, though I personally pay less. But then I have more co-pay.

Huh.. of course. Same here, only having basic health insurance is compulsory here.
It's illegal not to be insured.

It's not illegal here to be uninsured nor is it required. Unfortunately, as healthcare prices soar few and fewer are able to afford healthcare insurance.

If you have a union job with good benefits, traditionally you'd pay nothing for your healthcare. The employer would cover the whole thing. Nowadays even people with union jobs are being asked to pay part of the cost (usually a VERY SMALL PART), yet they scream bloody murder over this not realizing what a good deal they're getting. Its such a great deal people are unretiring to pay for their health care benifits.

Its such a great deal people are unretiring to pay for their health care benifits.

Yes that is very true. A lot of people used to have healthcare as a part of their retirement package. But now companies are getting rid of pensions and healthcare for retirees. So people who had thought they were set for retirement have found out otherwise.

Yes that is very true. A lot of people used to have healthcare as a part of their retirement package. But now companies are getting rid of pensions and healthcare for retirees. So people who had thought they were set for retirement have found out otherwise.

Um i am talking about people who still have health benifits from from work but the premiums got so high that they needed to go back to work. I mean when one fifth of someones monthly pension is going toward healthcare premiums from insurance they got through work some has gone amiss

It's not illegal here to be uninsured nor is it required. Unfortunately, as healthcare prices soar few and fewer are able to afford healthcare insurance.

Yes, but over here even people that cannot afford it are forced to buy insurance..

Yes, but over here even people that cannot afford it are forced to buy insurance..

Ahh you Europeans are wimps when it comes to bearing healthcare costs. I invite all of you to come to the states where you can pay 900-1000 Euros per month for your healthcare. And you guys can be like Americans and pay your for healthcare like a man (all sexism aside)! :) By the way, Euros are becoming the currency of preference in some parts of the states.

Ahh you Europeans are wimps when it comes to bearing healthcare costs. I invite all of you to come to the states where you can pay 900-1000 Euros per month for your healthcare. And you guys can be like Americans and pay your for healthcare like a man (all sexism aside)! :) By the way,
No problem, if you guys are willing to pay our gas prices ;)

Euros are becoming the currency of preference in some parts of the states.
And so it begins..
World domination.. lol

One of two things must happen in the United States...government takeover of the industry like a monopoly or the government needs to stop unreasonable restrictions of healthcare services and goods which benefit healthcare suppliers and producers at the expense of consumers. In other words a market that is really free, not one that corrals consumers and forces them to eat from the same trough. I have never seen a setup that created a genuine free market in health care for a population - the buyer is never informed well enough to choose, or even evaluate care received, for one thing.

And public health, the most beneficial aspect of a medical care system, of course has no market at all.
It was this perception that healthcare was free that allowed it to get so out of control in the first place. Baloney. It got less "out of control" in the places that provided more "free" care. It's not the perception of it being free that is driving the current price spiral - which is coincident with less of it being "free", and the cost of it being more of a personal burden, in the US.

the only specific charge for healthcare for the majority of people is 1.5% of taxable income. Now some other tax money is used as well but thats the money specifically collected for the health care system.

There is also a surcharge that is SUPOSED to be for the wealthy of another 1% (however because of bracket creep its now more like higher low income earners) if they dont have private cover as well but at the same time there is a 30% rebate for private health insurance. Taking into account the fact that i wouldnt put a DOG through the private system i belive both of these should be scrapt and all the money put into the public system