I finally saw Sicko, and leaned lots of good information.

1. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies do not want a public healthcare system because they will lose money.

2. You can go to Cuba, and get free health care. You can also get your meds at very low costs. The meds that cost a woman $150 was only $0.05 in Cuba.

3. In England, they will laugh at you in the hospital if you ask where you are supposed to pay. They will also laugh at you if you ask for a billing department. They have a cashier close to the hospital exit. The cashier gives people money for transportation home. Not vouchers.

4. People get bonuses in America for denying services to patient. Doctors get bonuses in other countries for elping their patients.

5. If you have a baby in France, a government official will come to your house, do your laundry, and cook.

6. The French have doctors that drive around in a car doing home visits to people who call for emergencies.

7. Some hillbilly went to England, and did flips across the street that the Beatles walked on. He broke his shoulder, and the hospital fixed him for free.

This film was debunked in another thread.

This film was debunked in another thread.

No it was not.

Universal health care is what's 'sicko':mad:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56404

Mikey Moron's pathetic crockumentary makes me sicko.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56350

Moore's latest scam::mad:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56327

Socialized medicine is sicko:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56275

Oh, and I think we have enough Mikey Moron threads. :rolleyes:

Universal health care is what's 'sicko':mad:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56404

Mikey Moron's pathetic crockumentary makes me sicko.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56350

Moore's latest scam::mad:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56327

Socialized medicine is sicko:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56275

Oh, and I think we have enough Mikey Moron threads. :rolleyes:

do you think jesus would want people to be turned away from health care because they don't have enough money, you poor thing?

Most of the people who don't have health care are probably criminal aliens anyway. They don't deserve free health care. We want our own private healthcare with our own great doctors. Not some POS "freebie" that is worthless. If HMOs are any indication of universal healthcare, thanks but no thanks. I don't want anyone I know waiting 3 years for an emergency operation.:(

who pays for this supposedly "free" healthcare?

who pays for this supposedly "free" healthcare?

Exactly...

It's easy to spend someone else's money...here, I'll demonstrate....just give me your wallet and we'll go up to the store. :)

Taxpayers foot the bill...and that's not just some fat cat in New York City...that's you and me dude.

I finally saw Sicko, and leaned lots of good information.Michael Moore has become just a teeny bit full of himself since his earlier successes. While much--or perhaps even almost all--of what he presents is true, it's only half the story.

The problem with socialized anything is that it removes incentives for producers to become more creative and efficient and it gives consumers a sense of entitlement and irresponsibility, eventually resulting in the dissipation of surplus wealth ("capital") rather than its creation.

While Americans may buy cheap medicines from the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Canada, its citizens flock here to get treatments they have to queue up for months to get in their own country. In the Swedish S.S.R, a man my age would be turned down for a heart transplant and simply be allowed to die--or come to America and pay for it.

As it is, our already well-socialized health insurance has made bypass surgery too cheap for the patient. An alarming number of them walk out of the hospital and resume their wicked ways of smoking and gorging on trans-fats while sitting motionless in front of the TV--and ten years later they're back getting another bypass.Most of the people who don't have health care are probably criminal aliens anyway. They don't deserve free health care.Sandy, we're all getting a little tired of your trolling--popping up irrelevantly in every thread like a whack-a-mole, attempting to derail it so you can start an argument about your own particular prejudices. Consider yourself on notice.

For the record, my wife was a social worker in the Most Left-Wing City in America for half of her life. Illegal immigrants make up a small fraction of the people who lack medical insurance. The majority is split about evenly among young people who think they're immortal and don't need insurance and hard-working people who are down on their luck and either lost their job or had to settle for one with no benefits.

I will tell you once more: Take your unscientific and anti-scientific racist and religionist propaganda someplace else and stop cluttering up our science boards with it. The rules are looser in Free Thoughts and Religion.Who pays for this supposedly "free" healthcare?The government of course. Oh wait, that's us.

Obviously, even to a libertarian, health care is one of the very few enterprises for which a persuasive argument can be made for nationalization. (Unlike education, transportation, energy, charity, etc...) The theoretical point is that by spreading the risk over the whole population, everyone can afford the payments. So you have to browbeat the people who consider themselves low-risk into diving into the pool, rather than letting them wait until they get older or have a child with a genetic illness and suddenly see the advantage.

But the bastardized version of socialized medicine that we have here--HMOs and PPOs--combines the worst elements of the free market with the worst of a command economy. Medical decisions are made by accountants and attorneys. Health care is like education: there will soon be more administrators in the field than professional practitioners. It is becoming just another civil "service" gig. Rather than adding value to the economy by doing research and healing people, it's just a bunch of bureaucrats looking for ways to justify their jobs.

I didn't see that one coming from you, Fraggle. I'm not saying anything, but I didn't expect you to say that :)

Anyway, small rant:

I'm sure I could make a persuasive argument for the re-nationalisation of trains in the UK. A 25 mile trip costs £10 return. I can drive there for £5. Finding a parking space for free isn't that easy (possible, though), but the £5 saving could be used to pay for parking. They want us to get on overcrowded, overpriced, consistently late or cancelled trains that run only so many hours of the day? Bollocks to that.

micheal moore has the right diagnosis when he says that our health care system is corrupt, but he has the wrong cure. basically, the government puts policies into place that place strong barriers to entry to the market, and allows drug companies to jack the prices up. having a corrupt FDA doesn't help much either.

I finally saw Sicko, and leaned lots of good information.

1. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies do not want a public healthcare system because they will lose money.

2. You can go to Cuba, and get free health care. You can also get your meds at very low costs. The meds that cost a woman $150 was only $0.05 in Cuba.

3. In England, they will laugh at you in the hospital if you ask where you are supposed to pay. They will also laugh at you if you ask for a billing department. They have a cashier close to the hospital exit. The cashier gives people money for transportation home. Not vouchers.

4. People get bonuses in America for denying services to patient. Doctors get bonuses in other countries for elping their patients.

5. If you have a baby in France, a government official will come to your house, do your laundry, and cook.

6. The French have doctors that drive around in a car doing home visits to people who call for emergencies.

7. Some hillbilly went to England, and did flips across the street that the Beatles walked on. He broke his shoulder, and the hospital fixed him for free.Why is it that Americans find out how fucked-up their system is when another points it out to them by using the very methods that were used to make them obtuse and ignorant?

Why is it that Americans find out how fucked-up their system is when another points it out to them by using the very methods that were used to make them obtuse and ignorant?
Who cares?
As long as the truth is being proliferated. As long as people learn how to think for themselves. People who claim themselves to be educated are usually not self educated. They are educated incorrect information from moronic sources. Blind leading the blind is being educated. You can tell which methods are for the people and which are against. The methods used to manipulate people into not thinking for themselves are against the people. The methods used to get people to think for themselves are for the people.

Why should we beleive anything without question. Whether our education comes from the news or from the movie Sicko, the information should be questioned, and people should find the truth for themselves. When you actually learn how to question everything, you find that the movie is quite accurate, and the news is complete bollocks.

Here is my assessment,

First off this movie was debunked in another thread.

In U.S there is socialized medicine, it is called MediCare (SP), where ever this system is implemented\subsidized by higher tax rates, be it Canada, Europe etc.

As far as the high cost of drugs in U.S, i think Americans are paying for the research and free meds given to poor nations. It is this research that accounts for the cost and time involved bringing these meds to market. Another thing to consider is that once these discoveries are made they are copied and who knows what you are getting. Just like you will find antifreeze in foreign toothpaste, there are unscrupulous get rich quick people out there.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=22711&Cr=tuberculosis&Cr1=

http://www.kushand.org/art0023.html

do you think jesus would want people to be turned away from health care because they don't have enough money, you poor thing?
No one is denied care. So don't worry about what Jesus would think.

And where is the morality in government healthcare? It's no more moral than a mobster throwing money around. First, you take money at the point of a gun, then you act like a big shot when you give a little of it away.

As far as the high cost of drugs in U.S, i think Americans are paying for the research and free meds given to poor nations. It is this research that accounts for the cost and time involved bringing these meds to market.
Exactly. The moocher jackasses think companies will continue to create new drugs once the government forces them to give them away for free.

As it stands, we have cheap drugs right now, generic drugs. Just wait a few years and all the cool new drugs you want will go generic and be cheap. Of course by then, there will be even better ones available.

That is, unless the government steps in and gives us "free" drugs.

No one is denied care. So don't worry about what Jesus would think.

No one is denied emergency care. Yeah, if you go to the ER with some immanently life-threatening problem, they are required to treat you. But people are routinely denied non-emergency care. That's part of the reason why health care in the US is so incredibly inefficient - people are denied care due to inability to pay for non-emergency problems that could be treated relatively cheaply, then end up going untreated until their problem actually becomes an emergency that’s expensive to treat.

... people are denied care due to inability to pay for non-emergency problems ...

People who can't pay are denied lots of things. The big question, however, is who is supposed to pay for all of it? Where does all the money come from to pay for all those things that others can't afford?

And do you really want to force some people to pay for the care of others? If they don't want to pay? What kind of "freedom" is that? What kind of governmental system would you call it?

And if you can force some people to pay for healthcare for everyone, what else would you propose that they pay for? Cars so they can get to work? Fuel to operate those cars? If we pay for some things for some people, why not pay everything for those people???

Baron Max

I work in a blue-collar crew of guys, every single one of whom has a chronic medical problem they can't afford to treat. Problems range from hemmerhoids and nagging joint injuries to broken teeth, congenital orthopedic malformations, and abdominal hernia.

These problems interfere with and reduce their lifetime productivity, their ability to contribute in "non-productive" ways to the community, and their enjoyment of life - their "pursuit of happiness".

Most of them have insurance, one way or another. But as it is private insurance, for profit, it is limited in what it will cover. It will not cover what they need, for various reasons.

And because the medical care in the country they live in is the most expensive on the planet by more than half, and if paying themselves they would be charged the very highest rates rather than the discounted insurance company rates, their ordinary wages will not cover the costs of the treatment.

Unless they get killed first, every one of these guys is going to eventually reach a medical crisis from their chronic condition, that will be five or ten times as expensive to treat as their current level of trouble. It will also cost much more in lost capability, time off work, medical and community resources used up, etc.

At that time they will be unable to work, and so their insurance coverage will be less, not more, than it is now. If they have not made it to Medicare age, the financial repercussions - from bankruptcy to neglect of children to car accidents from poor maintenance and inattentive driving, etc - will ripple out into their community and affect everyone in it. They - and their community - will also have lost many years of extra contribution over the time they were banged up.

This is a moronic, utterly indefensible, goofy system. Any of the systems now in use in other industrialized countries would provide better care than this joke.

The central problem is that a competitive market in medical care is impossible to set up. You cannot allocate medical care efficiently using a competitive market mechanism. You have to think of something else.

I work in a blue-collar crew of guys, ...

So, .....who is going to pay for it all?

Are you proposing to force some people to pay for the care of others ...even if they don't want to pay it?

And what else can't those people pay for themselves? Should some others be forced to pay for those thing, too? If you pay for one thing that they need, how can you not pay for everything that they need?

Most of them have insurance, one way or another. But as it is private insurance, for profit, it is limited in what it will cover. It will not cover what they need, for various reasons.

Why didn't they get better insurance plans?

I would be curious about your friends, however. How much money do they spend on entertainment? Beer, parties, fishing trips, boats, large-screen tv, Internet connections, cable tv, movies, dinner on the town, .....?

Baron Max

The US spends far more on healthcare per capita than any other country in the world, but our healthcare system consistently ranks lower than almost every other western country in the world in terms of actually providing care. Why are we Americans getting so much less for our money? Part of the problem is that so many people don't get problems fixed until they are expensive emergencies. It's analogous to never doing any maintenance on your car until one of the warning lights goes on, and then you have to take it to a mechanic to fix hundreds of dollars worth of problems that could have been avoided by spending $20 to change the oil and a fan belt. Our current system that requires hospitals to provide emergency treatment but denies non-emergency treatment to people who can't pay is partly responsible.

In the last WHO ranking of countries by healthcare, Cuba ranks 37th - just 2 behind the US. Why is such a poor, shitty little country with no resources and an oppressive government able to rank just 2 below the richest country in the world? Especially when they spend less than half of what we do per capita on healthcare? The answer is that healthcare in Cuba has a strong focus on preventative medicine and catching small problems so that they can be corrected before they become emergencies.

It's fine to make arguments about whether or not healthcare is a right, if people should have to pay for each other, etc. In fact, I think it's very important that people discuss that sort of thing. But it's hard to argue with the fact that healthcare in the US is incredibly inefficient. Our current system spends a lot more per capita than every other country, but gets less results. It seems clear that the market has absolutely failed here…which isn’t very surprising when you consider how healthcare pretty much fails at every single economic requirement for being a candidate for efficient free market control.

Managed health care costs less than waiting until the condition gets so bad that it's an emergency. In other words, a single-payer insurance system in the US will not require any increase in taxes.

Furthermore, it's not a cost, it's an investment in the health of the nation, with greater returns than a bridge or a port.

A few years ago I was self-employed so I shopped around for health insurance and found a plan that had a $20 co-pay for office visits, and $10 co-pay on prescriptions. The monthly cost was around $80 per, if i recall correctly. Anyway, it was about the same as cable and phone, and certainly less than a car payment, or the cost of having to go see every new movie that comes out, or having to drink top shelf liquor when you go out. The point is, people who earn money can make the choice to buy their own healthcare through private insurors, but many simply don't want to sacrifice anything in order to do so.

If having health care means you don't get to have DirectTV, then that's the price you pay. I just don't buy the argument that 40 million working people simply can't find any way to squeeze some vice out of their budget in order to pay for their own insurance.

Managed health care costs less than waiting until the condition gets so bad that it's an emergency.

Interesting point, but ....why should the taxpayers, the government, pay for emergency medical care for those people? If we'd cut out that service as well, then the taxpayers could afford better healthcare for their own families!

Furthermore, it's not a cost, it's an investment in the health of the nation, with greater returns than a bridge or a port.

Bullshit! And more bullshit. You've bought into the hype of the bleeding heart liberals ...you know, those people who want to take everyone else's money to pay for all the poor people, but aren't willing to give up any of their own money to give to anyone!

Baron Max

...If having health care means you don't get to have DirectTV, then that's the price you pay. I just don't buy the argument that 40 million working people simply can't find any way to squeeze some vice out of their budget in order to pay for their own insurance.

I agree. And most states have programs for free immunizations, dental care, generic prescriptions, etc. It always amazed me the people who wouldn't take their kid to the clinic but instead used the ER as their doctor.

B,
Because we live in a society, not a loose association of cave-dwellers.

B,
Because we live in a society, not a loose association of cave-dwellers.

No, Spider, I disagree. The cave-dwellers would probably have been more attuned to the people of their cave in much better ways than we are!

And that's because today's humans don't actually live in "societies" today ....we live within large, vast groups of people with whom we have little or nothing in common, and with hardly any close contact with more than a very, very few of those people. That ain't a "society", it's more like a prison!

And you, and all the other bleeding heart liberals, forcing some people to pay for others is nothing short of the warden ordering the prisoners to do something .....they seldom have any choices!! And that's what you're doing ....taking away those choices.

If you, and all the other bleeding heart liberals, want to pay for other people's healthcare, then please do, ....but why must you force others to do it?? Because that's what it is whether you believe it or not ....it's force!!!

Baron Max

Most of the people who don't have health care are probably criminal aliens anyway. They don't deserve free health care. We want our own private healthcare with our own great doctors. Not some POS "freebie" that is worthless. If HMOs are any indication of universal healthcare, thanks but no thanks. I don't want anyone I know waiting 3 years for an emergency operation.:(

please don't say we when refering to americans because you do not speak for all americans

Why should tax payers pay for universal healthcare? Because you are humans? (I hope). Cooperation is more important than competition.

Why is it that Americans find out how fucked-up their system is when another points it out to them by using the very methods that were used to make them obtuse and ignorant?
Perhaps the methods are similar, but that in itself does not mean that Moore is any more accurate, does it. He's simply another sensationalist pretending to be an exposer of corruption, when really he only presents as fact that which supports his own viewpoint - a little like the thread starter himself.
Anything other information, of course, is entirely irrelevant.
Michael Moore is, as you say, the quintessential American.

Young Lixluke here has constantly stated that he will not be a slave, but is the first to scream when his useless, miserable existence is not catered to by those who are actually useful - like doctors. For free, of course... paid for by the government. To which he refuses to contribute - he will not work and pay his taxes like all those other slaves. He wants something for nothing.
Lixluke is an American, too.

So, .....who is going to pay for it all?

Are you proposing to force some people to pay for the care of others ...even if they don't want to pay it? Not paying for the care of others is what has painted you into this corner.

Even if they pay for all their own care, in the future, their competition for resources and extra demand pressure on the system - caused by their earlier neglect - will drive up the price of medical care (and medical insurance) for everyone.

Is there anyone on this planet except an American "conservative"

(there's a misnomer, for people favoring complete refusal of a community's responsibility to care for its members)

who would argue in favor of incurring more expenses, tolerating lower standards of public health, and making medical care more costly for everyone, for the sole purpose of denying care to those who can't pay for it ?

Even if they pay for all their own care, in the future, their competition for resources and extra demand pressure on the system - caused by their earlier neglect - will drive up the price of medical care (and medical insurance) for everyone.

who would argue in favor of incurring more expenses, tolerating lower standards of public health, and making medical care more costly for everyone, for the sole purpose of denying care to those who can't pay for it ?
Please. Providing something for "free" does not improve quality or lower costs. It creates an artificial shortage and results in the rationing of care. Many of these wonderful welfare states with their great universal health care plans routinely deny care to certain classes of people such as the elderly or the fat.
in 2005, Britain’s health service started refusing certain surgeries for fat people. An official behind the decision conceded that one of the considerations was cost. Fat people would benefit from the surgery less, and so they deserved it less. As Tony Harrison, a British health-care expert, explained to the Toronto Sun at the time, “Rationing is a reality when funding is limited.”

Fat people, smokers and — soon — drinkers deserve less health care because they bring their problems on themselves. In short, they deserve it. This is a perfectly logical perspective, and if I were in charge of everybody’s health care, I would probably resort to similar logic.
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/120850.html
If the government is paying the bill, the government gains a huge amount of control over your life. He who pays the piper, pays the tune. Remember 1984? Every day big brother made sure you did your exercise at dawn like some damned prisoner.

That's what univeral healthcare does. At turns the country into one big prison with the government managing every last detail of our lives. FUCK THAT.

Freedom isn't free. Not only do our brave young soldiers have to fight and sometimes die for our freedom; we might have to pay some of our own bills too. Or is that too much to ask? Is that too high a price?

If you want to be free, to live like a responsible adult, you pay your own way. If you want to be treated like a child or a prisoner, beg for someone else to pay. But you can't have it both ways.

Most of the people who don't have health care are probably criminal aliens anyway. They don't deserve free health care. We want our own private healthcare with our own great doctors. Not some POS "freebie" that is worthless. If HMOs are any indication of universal healthcare, thanks but no thanks. I don't want anyone I know waiting 3 years for an emergency operation.

Do you ever leave your house??
After my divorce, I entered the world of no health care. Just about everyone sitting around me was white or black. And its not because MI doesn't have Hispanics. There is a HUGE migrant worker population here. So apparently the white people were illegal Canadians and the black people were illegal Kenyans.
And the doctors there were not worthless Pieces Of Shit. They were taking care of people, not earning a fat paycheck.
And I don't want you waiting 3 yrs for an emergency operation either. I want you to get that much needed lobotomy NOW!!!
Oh yeah, I forgot. :mad: :mad: :mad:

It seems to me that this thread is missing or perhaps not considering a rather important point. Ill health has two main causes: poverty and excess. In trying, with some success, to eradicate the former we have paved the way for the latter. Just what might happen to the planet if everyone became healthy tomorrow and demanded the levels of resource that over developed societies currently consume. It's a rather bitter pill if you think about it. It isn't just access to healthcare that improves health anyway. The developments that have the biggest influences on health improvement are access clean water and sanitation and we are right back to resources again.
Fire up the rocket ships we need another planet teeming with resources....:bawl:

I finally saw Sicko, and leaned lots of good information.

1. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies do not want a public healthcare system because they will lose money.

2. You can go to Cuba, and get free health care. You can also get your meds at very low costs. The meds that cost a woman $150 was only $0.05 in Cuba.

3. In England, they will laugh at you in the hospital if you ask where you are supposed to pay. They will also laugh at you if you ask for a billing department. They have a cashier close to the hospital exit. The cashier gives people money for transportation home. Not vouchers.

4. People get bonuses in America for denying services to patient. Doctors get bonuses in other countries for elping their patients.

5. If you have a baby in France, a government official will come to your house, do your laundry, and cook.

6. The French have doctors that drive around in a car doing home visits to people who call for emergencies.

7. Some hillbilly went to England, and did flips across the street that the Beatles walked on. He broke his shoulder, and the hospital fixed him for free.

If you want to see a real backward health service, come to Ireland. Ok, we don't have to pay for it, but the situation in this country is being called a health service 'crisis'. Here are three situations from people close to me which all occured in the same hospital:

When my best friend was 9, she waited for 10 hours in the local hosptial waiting room with her leg badly broken in two places before she was seen to. Can you imagine a 9 year old with a broken leg waiting on a chair for 10 hours?

My great-uncle went into the hospital as a last resort with prostate cancer, pneumonia, and gangrene in his leg (excuse my spelling). He was 80 years of age, they forgot to feed him, and not only did his health not improve, but he got MRSA, a hospital bug that's gone mental in Ireland, which eventually killed him. We couldn't have a wake for him or have an open coffin because of the MRSA.

A man my father knows went into this same hospital with pains in his chest. He sat for 12 hours and then had a heart attack in the middle of the waiting room and nobody believed he was having a heart attack and he died.

To be fair, we do have a NOW Doc service, which is where doctors drive around in cars in case of emergencies, but the hospitals are awful.

Please. Providing something for "free" does not improve quality or lower costs. It creates an artificial shortage and results in the rationing of care. Many of these wonderful welfare states with their great universal health care plans routinely deny care to certain classes of people such as the elderly or the fat.


http://www.reason.com/blog/show/120850.html
If the government is paying the bill, the government gains a huge amount of control over your life. He who pays the piper, pays the tune. Remember 1984? Every day big brother made sure you did your exercise at dawn like some damned prisoner.

That's what univeral healthcare does. At turns the country into one big prison with the government managing every last detail of our lives. FUCK THAT.

Freedom isn't free. Not only do our brave young soldiers have to fight and sometimes die for our freedom; we might have to pay some of our own bills too. Or is that too much to ask? Is that too high a price?

If you want to be free, to live like a responsible adult, you pay your own way. If you want to be treated like a child or a prisoner, beg for someone else to pay. But you can't have it both ways.

That is the best post I read all day. You said EXACTLY what I have been saying for years--only in a nicer way. :D

Governments dont pay bills people do

i can't see why americans don't want a nhs isent it basicly you all pay a litle extra tax then you get free health care :|

waite no not free but a dam lot cheaper

Sicko's claiming that Cuba is the beacon of healthcare and societal well-being is pathetic. A papaya will cost you more than an entire day's wage. You've heard about their food ration, right? Now isn't that just a wonderfully free society? :rolleyes:

I think we should put Michael Moore on a papaya diet. :D

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/07/02/living_on_cuban_food_ration_isnt_easy/?rss_id=Boston.com+%2F+News

Letting the government get involved in your healthcare is Russian roulette. Stupid and dangerous. :(

If governments didn't get involved in healthcare we'd have to rely on people like you to dole it out (to themselves). Oh no wait a minute.....

I don't like Mike Moore - he's a poor propagandist and die hardline liberal - yet he wants conservatives to see past his own liberalness and see that U.S healthcare needs and overhaul. Goodluck with that, hypocrit. You guys(americans) need to stop being polarized by different ends of the same team.

However you also need to fix your health care system. Canada's system is far from perfect, but that U.S system is so goddam broke! Asking an INSURANCE company if you can get a certain procedure done??? That is fucked. Yes even more fucked, than someone landing off the boat in Canada and getting 1000s of dollars in health care right away.

Then we learn that good 'ol mikey moore has the GOLD plan for his employees. I mean that is the best health care in the world and it is available only to Americans. Fucking hypocrit.

Interesting point, but ....why should the taxpayers, the government, pay for emergency medical care for those people? If we'd cut out that service as well, then the taxpayers could afford better healthcare for their own families!
The simple fact of the matter is that people aren't willing to let hospitals tell someone who's having a life-threatening emergency "Sorry, your credit card was declined" and watch them die on the steps of the hospital. Well, I guess maybe you are willing to allow that, but the vast majority of people aren't. If you take it for granted that you will be paying for people’s emergency care, it makes sense to pay for them to have minor problems fixed before they become expensive emergencies. People are healthier and it saves everyone money.

Yeeeepeeeekayi!

Sicko's claiming that Cuba is the beacon of healthcare and societal well-being is pathetic.
It's clear that you haven't actually watched the movie. He explicitly states that healthcare in Cuba is worse than in the US. He certainly never claimed that it was a "beacon of societal well-being". He went to the US military base at Guantanamo Bay with a bunch of fire fighters and paramedics who suffered injuries while rescuing people from the wreckage of the world trade center and now can't afford to get treatment because their insurance companies dropped them or jacked their premiums up to such astonomial levels that they can't afford to continue paying. His reasoning was that if the government was willing to give free healthcare to the terrorists who plotted and carried out the attacks, they should also give free healthcare to the heros who were trying to rescue people in the wake of the attacks. Although when talking about the efficiency of US healthcare he did make the point that the WHO ranked Cuba's healthcare only two below the US, even though Cuba spends less than half of what we do on healthcare per capita. (Cuba was 37th while the US was 35th, behind almost every other western country).

I really wish that people would make an effort to criticize what the movie actually says, rather than what they imagine it says.

because their insurance companies dropped them or jacked their premiums up to such astonomial levels that they can't afford to continue paying

Give an example. Of course non-hypothetical.

Give an example. Of course non-hypothetical.
The movie was full of specific examples with fairly detailed stories. Sorry, I don't remember the people's names. In general though, people often have trouble when they have to switch insurance companies when due to changing jobs. The new insurance company policy generally won't cover any "pre-existing conditions".

It should be obvious that am not asking for names. Why did they switch and if it was such a serious condition they would just have kept their original insurance current, which is easy enough to do.

In this case the best thing to do would be to cite an example from the movie.

*sigh*...oh well.....

Please. Providing something for "free" does not improve quality or lower costs. In health care, yes it does - more often than not. Vaccinations would be the obvious example, but most preemptive or preventative care works that way.

When my best friend was 9, she waited for 10 hours in the local hosptial waiting room with her leg badly broken in two places before she was seen to. Can you imagine a 9 year old with a broken leg waiting on a chair for 10 hours?

My great-uncle went into the hospital as a last resort with prostate cancer, pneumonia, and gangrene in his leg (excuse my spelling). He was 80 years of age, they forgot to feed him, and not only did his health not improve, but he got MRSA, a hospital bug that's gone mental in Ireland, which eventually killed him. We couldn't have a wake for him or have an open coffin because of the MRSA.

A man my father knows went into this same hospital with pains in his chest. He sat for 12 hours and then had a heart attack in the middle of the waiting room and nobody believed he was having a heart attack and he died.
All three of those stories have counterparts in the US. And on top of the bad delivery, in the US those people or their estates would be getting large bills - tens of thousands of dollars - for service.

because their insurance companies dropped them or jacked their premiums up to such astonomial levels that they can't afford to continue paying ”

Give an example. Of course non-hypothetical. Every guy I work with. Or better: friend of mine, now a freelance programmer and systems analyst, when he was starting out landed a very good contract - so he married his girlfriend, got good medical insurance for his family, and they set about making a baby. When the baby was delivered, the insurance company refused to cover. It had been conceived within the six month window demarcating "pre-existing conditions". 25 thousand dollars, that cost him.

That money required him to work longer hours, sleep less, exercise less, worry more, provide lesser quality food and circumstances to his young wife and child, postpone some dental work he needed, and so forth. It may very well have damaged his health.

Read the fine print. Because in the US system, 40% of your medical bill is devoted to generating and enforcing that fine print - almost none of which would be necssary in a competently socialized system.

In health care, yes it does - more often than not. Vaccinations would be the obvious example, but most preemptive or preventative care works that way.

And yet, those are free in the USA! Children get them when they first come to school ...if the parents haven't done it or can't do it, then the state vaccinates the children free of charge. So your prime example just went out the window in a flash.

Baron Max

And yet, those are free in the USA! Children get them when they first come to school ...if the parents haven't done it or can't do it, then the state vaccinates the children free of charge. So your prime example just went out the window in a flash. Uh, earth to Baron - you just agreed with my prime example.

unless you think the US is wasting all that money on those free child vaccinations.

btw: a lot of vaccinations are not "free", in the US. And so we deal with more cases of contagious disease than if they were.

Please. Providing something for "free" does not improve quality or lower costs. It creates an artificial shortage and results in the rationing of care. Many of these wonderful welfare states with their great universal health care plans routinely deny care to certain classes of people such as the elderly or the fat.


http://www.reason.com/blog/show/120850.html
If the government is paying the bill, the government gains a huge amount of control over your life. He who pays the piper, pays the tune. Remember 1984? Every day big brother made sure you did your exercise at dawn like some damned prisoner.

That's what univeral healthcare does. At turns the country into one big prison with the government managing every last detail of our lives. FUCK THAT.

Freedom isn't free. Not only do our brave young soldiers have to fight and sometimes die for our freedom; we might have to pay some of our own bills too. Or is that too much to ask? Is that too high a price?

If you want to be free, to live like a responsible adult, you pay your own way. If you want to be treated like a child or a prisoner, beg for someone else to pay. But you can't have it both ways.

So build your own roads, regulate your own drugs, fight your own wars, dig your own wells, shit in your own outhouse, and don't ever call the cops or fire department.

I can do without the unnecessary wars, but I'll take the universal health care. Soldiers get it (sometimes), our congresspeople get it, it seems to work out well for them.

I believe that every system has issues, the US does provide children and families insurance through state/federal medicaid program. Often many states offer a sliding scale fee insurance for families that are over the income guidelines for Medicaid. There are also free clinics in many areas. I work for a state run institution all patients are treated the same and offered the same services and clinical treatments regardless of their lack of insurance and if the have HIV/AIDS, cancer they are treated the same regardless of cost, We have social workers that work on site to help the patients. I know it is not the same everywhere, it varies from city,state, and hospital, etc. There are hospitals here that I would not go to if you paid me and I would never work there either.

There are horror stories from everywhere not just the US. I am sure that I could find many of cases in every country, especially in cancer survival rates in the UK which is lower then most European and US survival rates.

I pay for my insurance, I have many pre-existing conditions but have no problems with my insurance coverage and it does not cost me anymore than any of my co-workers. I had some of the best international surgeons supply my medical care and follow-up regardless of my ability to pay them at the time of service due to an accident. I deal with insurance companies and they are frustrating at times but I have always been able to make sure our patients have the required care even if it is over the standards.