There's been alot of show recently on SciForums dedicated to bashing America, but more importantly to emphasize it's doom. I'm going to explain a few reasons behind this, then I'll ask each of you to review everything you've read (up to this point) about American life. Can it be sustained or is this nation truly going to fall sometime in the near future?

1. America is outsourcing

It's often the common statement, America use to be a nation that would produce goods for itself & others, now we send all manner of work off-shores to appearantly cut costs. While this seems effective what it will eventually do is lower our ability to offer other nations anything of value, other than our own ignorant attitudes or beliefs (Christians specifically).

Ignoring my own personal opinions at the moment let's think of this, the more we outsource the less we are able to produce. We give other nations jobs that increase their wealth and available options, in essence we're helping to build another countries economy. Even more-so than this we're offering them a chance to put in-place a system of production... even without us they'll have resources we paid for to build and construct whatever it is we're paying them to make.

2. The nation as it currently operates holds and astonishing three-quarters of the worlds gross product for consumption when it has less than a fifth of the worlds population to support. To me this is simply another reason why America is doomed. There's no way this can continue given the limited nature of their operations, while they can function what about when they have even more people in 20 years? Then what? I think it just means more poor and better slaves for them in their homeland. Everyone likes a person that'll work for 8 dollars an hour doing insane things, fun ehh? Baron Max... jobs are pointless if you can't survive on them!

3. America is dependant on Oil

The entire world needs oil to operate, however if you really think about it there's no logical reason for this problem. It just so happens some stupid fools figured they'd develop technology primarily with oil.. when oil is umm, well I'm not sure what the hell it is?! Dino's that decayed? Plants? whatever...

Anywhoo oil is evil and serves no function other than to make us lazy. Actually by now we'd have a real economy + technology not dependant on oil if we'd been smarter, unfortunately we weren't. What do I think will happen in 20 years?... America will fall and so will every other nation, then it'll be the stoneage again with nothing because oil is all we had.

Please continue and make more comments on whether or not America is doomed, people can select now from the poll or wait until more posts are made about these things. Bring up other problems too with America, tell us why it's doomed..

1) America is an imperialist nation

2) America is greedy

3) America will destroy this planet

4) America is racist

5_ America does not help others unless the help actually helps themselves more

6) America is a hypocrit

7) America hates terorism but breeds it's own

8) America will invade Canada when neccesary

How can America invade Canada? Canada is a part of America as is Brazil, the United States, and a whole host of other nations.

Anyway, the UNITED STATES isn't doomed. In fact, it is the 3rd coolest country in the world. #1 and 2 go to New Zealand and Finland in that order.

If you disagree, do some traveling then get back to me.

-snip-

This is not going to be another America bashing thread. We have a few open at this moment with plenty of activity. Take it to one of them...

I'd love to move to Finland or New Zealand :(

Anyway, the UNITED STATES isn't doomed. In fact, it is the 3rd coolest country in the world. #1 and 2 go to New Zealand and Finland in that order.

If you disagree, do some traveling then get back to me.

Just because it's "cooler," that doesn't mean it's not doomed. What if I took out a loan for $10,000,000 (unrealistic, yes) and live the high life for a year? I'll be the coolest little shit my friends know. At the end of the year, everyone will be screaming for their money back and I'll be the loser among losers in my circle of friends.

Just because it's "cooler," that doesn't mean it's not doomed. What if I took out a loan for $10,000,000 (unrealistic, yes) and live the high life for a year? I'll be the coolest little shit my friends know. At the end of the year, everyone will be screaming for their money back and I'll be the loser among losers in my circle of friends.

The United States owns enough land to cover its debts, especially with the mineral and timber wealth contained in that land.

If worst comes to worst, we will just start selling our country off to other countries to pay off our debts. We wouldn't even have to sell all of it, and they couldn't sell land already owned by citizens, like me.

It would also end the hatred of America when every other country owns a piece of our beautiful land. Hopefully many of these people will move here permanently, as we have tons of room and would love to become even more diverse.

So, don't worry about the United States. It looks like we are in debt, but our assets more than cover what we owe. No problems, mate.

swivel, we have tons of room? Maybe you meant tons of room in places nobody can survive? Most people that are without homes live under bridges not in the wild.

If worst comes to worst, we will just start selling our country off to other countries to pay off our debts. We wouldn't even have to sell all of it, and they couldn't sell land already owned by citizens, like me.

The problem is that first, politicians would likely raise taxes to the maximum possible to pay off the debts. The effect would be that citizens would start moving out of the country left and right. In the end, the government would have no choice but to start selling some of the land.

California is the first state I want sold.

Absane, why California? If it's sold won't everbody just move inward? Also... how can they sell it with multinational corporations and business's operating, there's no way it would be legal to sell off the land which was being occupied by US citizens :shrug:

The days of watching presidential interviews coinciding with christianity and hearing the crack of baseball bats at the same time on TV entice me into thinking that americans are non-religiously nurtured with unreligious nature.

What's that all mean Zardozi?

What's that all mean Zardozi?

there are spiritual people and there are religoius people.

The United States owns enough land to cover its debts, especially with the mineral and timber wealth contained in that land.

If worst comes to worst, we will just start selling our country off to other countries to pay off our debts. We wouldn't even have to sell all of it, and they couldn't sell land already owned by citizens, like me.

It would also end the hatred of America when every other country owns a piece of our beautiful land. Hopefully many of these people will move here permanently, as we have tons of room and would love to become even more diverse.

So, don't worry about the United States. It looks like we are in debt, but our assets more than cover what we owe. No problems, mate.

1) If America is like Canada in this way.... You do not own the land per se. The government can take it away from you anytime they want as long as they pay market price.

2) Does America want to become more diverse? mabey the citizens do but does the government? That would be quite hypocritical considering how they such imperialists

3. America is dependant on Oil

The entire world needs oil to operate, however if you really think about it there's no logical reason for this problem. It just so happens some stupid fools figured they'd develop technology primarily with oil.. when oil is umm, well I'm not sure what the hell it is?! Dino's that decayed? Plants? whatever...



Wow! You really don't know anything about oil, do you??? Or much of anything else, for that matter. (I'm not even going to bother with the rest but you've made it absolutely clear that you know nothing about economics.)

But I'll tackle this bit of foolishness of your's about oil. Besides uranium, oil has THE highest density of energy of any fuel available. It's also easy to transport and store. Contrary to your very stupid statements, we would have been very foolish NOT to have used it!!

(Incidentally, it was formed from ancient vegetation.)

And as to your basic premise in the thread, the US is most certainly not doomed. We didn't rise to world prominence be being foolish (unlike you!) and are certainly capable of adjusting as we move through the future.

I strongly suggest you go back to school, unless you are still there, because you certainly haven't learned enough about anything yet!

Actually if you think about it, oil is what is destroying this planet and that does include biofuels like mashing up corn or sugar cane. Global warming will destroy not just America but the whole planet. Global warming is caused by oil. In 20 years, there will still be plenty of oil on this planet. Infact there is enough oil in the Alberta Oil sands to last Canada and the US 200 years which is the scarey part if you think about it. but hopefully some time soon the way oil is burned will be the fixer

swivel, we have tons of room? Maybe you meant tons of room in places nobody can survive? Most people that are without homes live under bridges not in the wild.

If they are too lazy to work for a living, they are far too lazy to live off of the land. Feeding yourself off of the land takes more work than a full-time job and the luxury of a supermarket. I know this from experience.

We have tons of room that can support at least 5 times our current population. Perhaps 10 times. Most of our population is still along the two coasts. There is a very fertile, very large chunk of land between the Rockies and the Appalachians. I hope that this land is settled by people from all over the world, and in great numbers.

I hope that this land is settled by people from all over the world, and in great numbers.
Why?

How can America invade Canada? Canada is a part of America as is Brazil, the United States, and a whole host of other nations.

Anyway, the UNITED STATES isn't doomed. In fact, it is the 3rd coolest country in the world. #1 and 2 go to New Zealand and Finland in that order.

If you disagree, do some traveling then get back to me.

That's a western point of view. Just as a westerner would naturally love their own culture. there are many who would disagree. i thought tahiti was cooler, japan, caribbean etc.

Most people see America as being a Paradise. Many would like to share that Dream with the World. I am waiting to see if there is a balance to be reached in the near future where all things are considered. :shrug:

double post

Please continue and make more comments on whether or not America is doomed, people can select now from the poll or wait until more posts are made about these things. Bring up other problems too with America, tell us why it's doomed..

Even the atheists are irrational.

Most people see America as being a Paradise. Many would like to share that Dream with the World. I am waiting to see if there is a balance to be reached in the near future where all things are considered. :shrug:


The best and only thing(to me) america does is the spread of democracy as an ideology and technological and scientific advancement which others can improve on which eventually improves the world.

All the other stuff is unimportant and annoying. I'm not interested in colonial architecture or biscuits nor american imperialism.

I believe if the world survives america is the international port where human advancement is making another crucial leap despite its petty racism, limited human visions, squabling etc.

I have no illusions of the great likelihood that one day we as a planet and species will traverse the stars. The world culture representing a star trek episode would be the best gift and outcome of technology and democracy with a UN as a government.

Why?

So the United States can be seen as a political entity, and not as a mostly-white male-dominated hegemony. The more diverse our population gets, the harder it will be to hate us as a country run by W.A.S.P.'s.

I also think that the more accessible our country is, from an immigration standpoint, hatred directed at us will wane.

What about the forests that you'd have to destroy to get 10x our population to fit; won't that increase the rate of global warming?

What about the forests that you'd have to destroy to get 10x our population to fit; won't that increase the rate of global warming?

There are more trees in the United States today than there has been any time in the past 150 years. And yet the population is much, much greater.

Most of the fertile, open land that I am thinking about is in the great plains. There are no trees there at all. It is flat, HUGE, and easily settled. The reason it hasn't been is because there is no population pressure here. People are still filling in the spaces around the cities.

...the great plains. There are no trees there at all. It is flat, HUGE, and easily settled.

If you think that the Great Plains of the USA is flat, you're woefully uneducated!

The reason it hasn't been is because there is no population pressure here. People are still filling in the spaces around the cities.

"Population pressure"? What's that?

Growth of cities versus growth of the plains is simple ....there's about two people on the plains who fuck and have babies, there's a gazillion people in the cities who fuck and have babies. Now which place do you think will have the most babies??

Baron Max

If you think that the Great Plains of the USA is flat, you're woefully uneducated!



"Population pressure"? What's that?

Growth of cities versus growth of the plains is simple ....there's about two people on the plains who fuck and have babies, there's a gazillion people in the cities who fuck and have babies. Now which place do you think will have the most babies??

Baron Max

I live in the mountains, so I guess it is all relative. Where I live, you can't build houses in most places, in the plains, you can.

By population pressure I mean the force created by overpopulation that drives people out of cities. Partly created by supply and demand and the high cost of living that ensues. I don't know why you are talking about birth rates.

And why so hostile?

Can anyone name one empire, one nation, in history that hasn’t fallen, in time?

No, American will live-on forever….only it’ll be called Greater Canada!!!!! or Newer new Mexico.

"Population pressure"? What's that?

I was thinking that just now as well :shrug:

Can anyone name one empire, one nation, in history that hasn’t fallen, in time?

No, American will live-on forever….only it’ll be called Greater Canada!!!!! or Newer new Mexico.

The United States. Mexico. Canada. Brazil. Peru. Argentina...

There are dozens of nations that haven't fallen.



What you are really asking is, "Out of all of the nations which have already fallen, can anyone think of any which didn't?". Which is illogical.

I was thinking that just now as well :shrug:

http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_781529237/Population_Pressure.html

The United States. Mexico. Canada. Brazil. Peru. Argentina...

There are dozens of nations that haven't fallen.



What you are really asking is, "Out of all of the nations which have already fallen, can anyone think of any which didn't?". Which is illogical.Wow! I wasn’t aware we were at the end of time.
Your logic is impeccable.
Please continue pretending like you are thinking.

Wow! I wasn’t aware we were at the end of time.
Your logic is impeccable.
Please continue pretending like you are thinking.

Oh, we are supposed to use our psychic abilities to tell you which countries will fall before the end of time? I don't think you are asking very good questions.

You asked us to name countries from history that haven't fallen. I did. And now you are asking me which of these will last forever, and which are destined to fall? I can't possibly know that, and neither can you.

I think it is you that is having a problem thinking. You are guessing at something and pretending that it is fact. And then you are being rude to anyone who dares disagree with you. Bizarre.

Oh, we are supposed to use our psychic abilities to tell you which countries will fall before the end of time? I don't think you are asking very good questions.

You asked us to name countries from history that haven't fallen. I did. And now you are asking me which of these will last forever, and which are destined to fall? I can't possibly know that, and neither can you.

I think it is you that is having a problem thinking. You are guessing at something and pretending that it is fact. And then you are being rude to anyone who dares disagree with you. Bizarre.Interesting to discover that there is one thing that is eternal…the nation state.

Thanks swivel for discovering the absolute - the absolute moron in you.
I can’t possibly know if the sun will definitely rise tomorrow…and yet I am fairly certain that it will; why? - Because I take my experiences and my knowledge – the accumulated past - as evidence of future probable events.

So the United States can be seen as a political entity, and not as a mostly-white male-dominated hegemony. The more diverse our population gets, the harder it will be to hate us as a country run by W.A.S.P.'s.

I also think that the more accessible our country is, from an immigration standpoint, hatred directed at us will wane.
Hmmmm. I thought you were going to say that you wished for more immigration because weath and power is created by people. Contrary to what modern day Malthusians have to say, greater population leads to greater wealth. That is, so long as the people are free and not wards of the state.

That's the genius behind ""Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." America is made up of the best from every nation. The people who had the balls to leave everything and begin anew.

Only two things could fuck it up. The welfare state and multiculturalism. We have both, but so far not a fatal dose.

Hmmmm. I thought you were going to say that you wished for more immigration because weath and power is created by people. Contrary to what modern day Malthusians have to say, greater population leads to greater wealth. That is, so long as the people are free and not wards of the state.

That's the genius behind ""Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." America is made up of the best from every nation. The people who had the balls to leave everything and begin anew.

Only two things could fuck it up. The welfare state and multiculturalism. We have both, but so far not a fatal dose.

Your were doing alright and then your head slipped back into your american ass as usual.

First, just because they came to america does not mean they were the best. They were oppressed or many of them losers. The search for opportunity does not automatically equate to having balls in comparison to people who already made it.

All america needs to worry about is they be good citizens, obey laws, and pay taxes. Whether they pour soy sauce on their food or yodel is unimportant.

You also can't separate an immigrant from their cultural roots, they are going to bring it with them and rightly so. The representation of "culture" is defined by those citizens within it.

All america needs to worry about is they be good citizens, obey laws, and pay taxes. Whether they pour soy sauce on their food or yodel is unimportant.

You also can't separate an immigrant from their cultural roots, they are going to bring it with them and rightly so. The representation of "culture" is defined by those citizens within it.I don't care what kind of food they eat or what church they go to. I do care if they're willing to learn english and if they believe in freedom and democracy so they can become part of our nation. I don't want the country Balkanized.

And regarding Americans being the "best" from every nation. I stand by it.

Having a nation of immigrants means there was a strong selective pressure for risk taking, for entrepreneurship, for balls.

Yes, those who came to the US were usually among the oppressed. But the ones who came to America weren't satisfied to sit and take it. They risked it all to come to a new land. A land where they probably didn't even know the language. A land where there would be no family to fall back on. A land where they would sink or swim on their own merits. I say that takes balls.

Wow! You really don't know anything about oil, do you??? Or much of anything else, for that matter. (I'm not even going to bother with the rest but you've made it absolutely clear that you know nothing about economics.)

But I'll tackle this bit of foolishness of your's about oil. Besides uranium, oil has THE highest density of energy of any fuel available. It's also easy to transport and store. Contrary to your very stupid statements, we would have been very foolish NOT to have used it!!

(Incidentally, it was formed from ancient vegetation.)

And as to your basic premise in the thread, the US is most certainly not doomed. We didn't rise to world prominence be being foolish (unlike you!) and are certainly capable of adjusting as we move through the future.

I strongly suggest you go back to school, unless you are still there, because you certainly haven't learned enough about anything yet!

All true. He lives in a bubble made of bubble gum and cotton candy, why would he need to go back to school when that is where he learned from?

LOL

All true. He lives in a bubble made of bubble gum and cotton candy, why would he need to go back to school when that is where he learned from?

LOL

:D Point being he DIDN'T learn it there - or learn anything else for that matter - so he needs to go back and try again.;)

I don't care what kind of food they eat or what church they go to. I do care if they're willing to learn english and if they believe in freedom and democracy so they can become part of our nation. I don't want the country Balkanized.

And regarding Americans being the "best" from every nation. I stand by it.

Having a nation of immigrants means there was a strong selective pressure for risk taking, for entrepreneurship, for balls.

Yes, those who came to the US were usually among the oppressed. But the ones who came to America weren't satisfied to sit and take it. They risked it all to come to a new land. A land where they probably didn't even know the language. A land where there would be no family to fall back on. A land where they would sink or swim on their own merits. I say that takes balls.


I like your idealized picture of america but its just not true. There are plenty of immigrants who came here who are basically scum. Though, there are countless many who do fall into that category of being good people who are taking the risk to better their life.

You have both good and bad who come because there is good and bad in every society. It's been that way from the inception of america. If you think all the flood of immigrants form the irish, german, scottish, welsh, chinese, spanish etc were all good, that's delusional. Some were crooks, drunks, idiots, etc. There is not just all good.

Hmmmm. I thought you were going to say that you wished for more immigration because weath and power is created by people. Contrary to what modern day Malthusians have to say, greater population leads to greater wealth. That is, so long as the people are free and not wards of the state.

That's the genius behind ""Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." America is made up of the best from every nation. The people who had the balls to leave everything and begin anew.

Only two things could fuck it up. The welfare state and multiculturalism. We have both, but so far not a fatal dose.

Increased wealth is indeed the reason that I want our borders open. But there are two issues here: Open borders, and what population I would love to see flood across our borders.

The reason I want more immigration is precisely what you are talking about. Wealth, in a free economy, works like a pyramid scheme. As long as you keep pumping members into the base of the pyramid, everyone keeps moving up. A decreasing population would be bad for a society, especially for those who are currently on the bottom when the population tops out. I would like to see 2-3 million legal immigrants added each year for the next 100 years. Right now we are only adding around 450,000 new citizens a year (new bodies, we grant citizenship to another 550,000 or so that are already here).

My points about diversity regard the question of who we bring in. Right now our illegal immigration drowns out our legal immigration. We should nationalize everyone in-country in a one-time deal. Then, we should make it easier for Mexicans to come INTO our country so we don't trap them here with the fear that if they return home, they may never be able to come back. I'm convinced that our border policy INCREASES the population of illegals rather than diminishing it. We should grant dual-citizenship to any person of foreign birth that earns a degree from our universities. And we should enact some of the programs that Ireland recently has to entice foreign businesses and scientists to move their headquarters here.

More people + more diversity = better country.

I guess you haven’t read Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations.
His seven stages of a civilization ascent and decline are telling.

america is doomed to not stay the same, of course.

i guess it would be a good outcome if america became really the most diverse like an international airport.

Skyscrapers, flying cars, i digress, lol.

I guess you haven’t read Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations.
His seven stages of a civilization ascent and decline are telling.

Sure I have. It was a horrible article. His assumptions are incorrect.

First off, he pretends that the cultures which are most different are the ones that struggle against each other. This just isn't true. Ingrouping/outgrouping are most severe between cultures which are very similar. These cultures have to fight harder to maintain separation from one another.

This is why Catholics and Protestants fight with each other, while Buddhists and Christians have little conflict. Buddhists and Christians are too far apart to argue.

The historical battle between Muslims and Christians dates back to when they were similar. Back when the Old Testament played a larger role in both religions. Despite the religion of our current president, Christianity plays very little role in the current struggle. Judaism is much more of a factor, as the United States' support of Israel has infinitely more to do with their hatred of us. The attacks during Clinton's years, and the fact that 9/11 was planned pre-Bush is often forgotten when people try to make the war on terrorism all about Bush's faith vs. Islam. It is a re-writing of history.

More proof that similar cultures clash more violently than disparate ones: Iraq today. The Sunnis and and Shiites hate each other more than either group hates us. After we leave the Middle East, their extremely small differences are going to result in the same sort of destruction that Protestantism/Catholicism wrought in Europe.

Huntington's arm-chair nonsense has been debunked by too many people for me to give it a serious drubbing, but all it takes is the failure of his premise to show how wrong the rest of his theory is anyway.

^that's not entirely true. the reason why it seems christianity and buddhism isn't in direct confict is buddhism is tolerant of chistianity. Not just because they are dissimilar. But christianity does not return the favor and if they had more power they would oppress or persecute others period. I was raised in a christian household and any books i purchased regarding buddhism or any other philosophy was summarily thrown out! The justification was, it's a christian household and any other ideology is demonized as of the devil or evil or against god. The real truth is it was competition to their way of thinking, their nature etc. Therefore in the larger implications, they are trying to propogate their own kind in the world, assimilation or annhilation.

Christians act tolerant outwardly because they have to not because they really are.

1)
5_ America does not help others unless the help actually helps themselves more


That is so true. I'm glad some people actually see that.

America is doomed, and I'll tell you why: The entire world is annoyed about how America abuses its status as one of the world's leading economic countries. She invades countries and causes more trouble there than they had in the first place. She claims to give out so much foreign 'aid' to countries, but never unconditionally. She moves all her factories and manufacturing companies to third world countries so children can be forced to work in sweat shops for 18 hrs at a time for barely any pay. When a country does bad things like that, it's not long before the world gets angry. Evil countries always fall in the end; other countries eventually refuse to put up with it.

New Zealand is really really cold. Brrrr. Come to NZ in the beginning of autumn which I reckon is the best weather here, only like a real short period, it's just this feeling it gives, or in summer unless you want to go skiing of course. Cannabis culture in NZ is real bad. Not many hard drugs and stuff though which is good, hardly any at all. Everything else is pretty good. I would recommend a visit to NZ. It's pretty safe and not very intimidating. I'd like to go to America. Wonder if they'll have me.

America pay your bills.

Doomed? Maybe not, but there will be serious changes. The middle class will get poorer and small cars will be fashionable.

The so called democracy will be sraight out dictatorship, sheep, get ready!

Of course it is doomed.

Every society since the birth of civilization has risen, existed and died. It is a natural cycle.

The question is when and how.