I think about the world and more often than not, I get depressed. There seems to be so very little that is good anymore. I see majorities suffering while their rulers who are supposedly meant to be looking out for them live lives of luxury and do nothing to help them. I see countries at war, led by men who hide behind phony causes, causing pain and death and destruction. I see little that would classify as morallly correct.

Lately, an issue has come up in Australia. We have a public health system called Medicare. It is meant to make health services more accessible for the general public. Now, the government is trying to implement changes that they claim will make the system more efficient. I personally don't know the details, but from what I've read, and what I've gathered from commentary, this will not be the case.

In 2000, during the election, the same government suggested Australia take on the GST system. Under the same leader as now John Howard (the guy that looks like a little monkey), he claimed that it would be for the betterment of everyone. He said that petrol prices wouldn't be affected but whaddaya know? He won the election and GST got in and petrol prices rose. He also claimed that essentials would have no GST applied to them but tampon got it. And he just got away with it. They were blatent lies.

So, first GST, now medicare, and I would imagine many things inbetween and around. It's clear that the government has been and is planning to increase that gap between rich and poor.

I'm more than sure that this isn't only restricted to Australia. I hear this is happening in the US and probably in Europe. It's already the case in most Asian contries and is clearly the case in third world countries.

Why is this allowed to happen? Didn't 1984 teach us anything? Democracy means nothing when a unknowledgable public is exploited and lied to, and led to believe they have choice in what happens. I wonder, surely, I, a high school student, someone who can't even vote, cannot be the only one who see this happening. And if this is true, why does it continue to happen?:(

I think a major problem with "free" societies is that their populations have become enamored or convinced of the notion that they are somhow entitled to the liberties granted thm under their respective systems of government without the obligation of doing anything to ensure that their societies remain true to what was envisioned at their inception.
Here in America, for example, one hears lots of folks claiming "constitutional rights" whenever their sense of entitlement is being "trampled" by cold, hard facts.
People piss & moan about "corrupt" politicians on the Left & Right, but half the populace of the nation doesn't bother to show up to vote them out of office.
One faction of the founders of America believed there would have to be subsequent "revolutions" to toss out entrenched powermongers who would arise inevitably given the human lust for power... ingenious, if impractical

Another part of the ptoblem...
Well, consider the situation you mentioned concerning the medical system in Australia. in theory it sounds fantastc, and to some extent I wish we had a setup like it in America. (here, what we call Medicare/Medicaid is usually the last resort of the poor on public assistance or the elderly)
But a thing like that has to be paid for somehow, and if everyone is going to use the thing, in theory the "pain" is spread out evenly via some manner of tax. (The pol who lied about it is just "playing the game". Its not right, but its pretty much SOP to promise all and deliver what's gotta be done after election)

The thing is... Its a case of government providing for the general populace. Good in theory... Piss-poor in practice because bureaucrats have little or no accountability for their screwups... they can always tax you more to make up for their fiscal irresponsibility.
Also, the more government opens its big fat pillowy arms to "take care of you", the less you have to think for yourself & make effective, practical choices. You're a young person... Think about the difficult choices you have ahead of you in life... Now along comes "Mother Government" saying "its all right little guy... I'll keep you from having to worry your pretty little head over those nasty ol' decisions". Simply put, lots of people would rather "submit" to this so long as their perceived "freedom" to be ignorant louts isn't being abridged...

Killjoy


you are so right, people take for granted the rights that people fought and died to give them. it is sad that they really believe that they can't do a thing about it.
i can't remember who said it or the exact quote but either Madison or Jefferson said something to the effect of "we are giving you a republican form of government, noe you must keep it" and when people starte to care less and less about the government and become more ignorant o fthe law the more rights we will slowly lose.

Originally posted by Killjoy
I think a major problem with "free" societies is that their populations have become enamored or convinced of the notion that they are somhow entitled to the liberties granted thm under their respective systems of government without the obligation of doing anything to ensure that their societies remain true to what was envisioned at their inception.
Here in America, for example, one hears lots of folks claiming "constitutional rights" whenever their sense of entitlement is being "trampled" by cold, hard facts.
People piss & moan about "corrupt" politicians on the Left & Right, but half the populace of the nation doesn't bother to show up to vote them out of office.

See, that's what saddens me. It seems as if it must be common knowledge that governments screw us over all the time. But nothings happening. Nothing at all.

One faction of the founders of America believed there would have to be subsequent "revolutions" to toss out entrenched powermongers who would arise inevitably given the human lust for power... ingenious, if impractical

I have heard that after the civil war the theory put forward by the American leaders was truely profound and inspirational. But I also hear that its only worth today is a mask for politicians to stand behind and claim to uphold.

Another part of the ptoblem...
Well, consider the situation you mentioned concerning the medical system in Australia. in theory it sounds fantastc, and to some extent I wish we had a setup like it in America. (here, what we call Medicare/Medicaid is usually the last resort of the poor on public assistance or the elderly)
But a thing like that has to be paid for somehow, and if everyone is going to use the thing, in theory the "pain" is spread out evenly via some manner of tax. (The pol who lied about it is just "playing the game". Its not right, but its pretty much SOP to promise all and deliver what's gotta be done after election)

Medicare has been around for ages, even before I was born I think. I think it has always been paid for from taxes and I think there's an anual payment as well, not sure how it works though. I think the cost may be proportional to your income. But whatever the case, I don't think Medicare has been a finacial burden for the public.

whats 'SOP'?

The thing is... Its a case of government providing for the general populace. Good in theory... Piss-poor in practice because bureaucrats have little or no accountability for their screwups... they can always tax you more to make up for their fiscal irresponsibility.
Also, the more government opens its big fat pillowy arms to "take care of you", the less you have to think for yourself & make effective, practical choices. You're a young person... Think about the difficult choices you have ahead of you in life... Now along comes "Mother Government" saying "its all right little guy... I'll keep you from having to worry your pretty little head over those nasty ol' decisions". Simply put, lots of people would rather "submit" to this so long as their perceived "freedom" to be ignorant louts isn't being abridged...

grr arg. :(

Originally posted by AvatarOfWoe
Killjoy


you are so right, people take for granted the rights that people fought and died to give them. it is sad that they really believe that they can't do a thing about it.
i can't remember who said it or the exact quote but either Madison or Jefferson said something to the effect of "we are giving you a republican form of government, noe you must keep it" and when people starte to care less and less about the government and become more ignorant o fthe law the more rights we will slowly lose.

If only those politicians had realised that it was going to be those people that would exploit who were going to be in their place to preach themselves...

whats 'SOP'?... Dudeyhed

Standard Operating Procedure

As to another thing you reiterated about nobody taking any action in spite of common knowledge of corruption in the system as well as the politicians...

For one I think, in the USA at least, that it is presumed that anyone who runs for office is beholden to someone for something, and has people they "owe" whose interests they will be looking out for rather than the "public good". So those who bother to vote at all favor the notion "better the devil you know", or at least the one whose corruption results in some pork being thrown in the general direction of their state, district, county, town, or whatever.
We seem fickle to some degree, however, and at least at the national level appear ready to dispense with one of our whopping two national parties after the allowed two terms their man has served as president.

Another thing is - and again I can only comment on this as an aspect of American society - there seems to have arisen a situation in which people are required to spend so much of their time enmeshed in activities essential to economic solvency/survival that they have nothing left to give in terms of, say, learning more about issues facing society than those provided by sound bites and the "glittering generalities" comprising political speeches. I don't know if it is this which is responsible for the rise in the opinion that the govt should somehow "take care of" a growing number of "social ills".
It sounds like a nutty conspiracy theory to suggest that this is exactly the sort of situation that certain elements in the power structure might have helped bring about, because it allows them greater license to usurp or deny everyone's rights/freedoms.

Duddeyhed


Governments all over the world have been, for the longest time corrupt. I must agree with Avatar and Killjoy for example you know in New York state it's now a crime if you don't wear your seatbelt? Now think about this for a moment here and try to tell me that the government isn't trying to think for us.
Their're enforcing that I have to wear a seatbelt everytime I get into a car or I'll be fined! I'm not saying that the law doesn't make sense of course lots of people would be saved by wearing seatbelts, that not the point though. The point is shouldn't I have the right to decide for myself? Now the government has taken another step, made another law, so that I don't have to think as much. "Well thats a law so I have to do it" I ask why? Why does it have to be a law to wear a freaking seatbelt!!!!!!!!
Now as for our rights, medicare, listen I personally believe that medicare should be cut down. For the point being that people who didn't wish to save enough money for themselves now want us to take care of them. The government is diverting funds away from education for this. To go agianst senior citizens in this country is death to any politician. They're moving funds from the future of America (the youth) to the old and sorry to say this but least beneficial group! Take this instince, you work hard to get your A+ in chemistry. Now to aid a D- student the government is going to take some of your grade and give it to that student so we can all get by.
I know that isn't the best example. Alright well, America isn't doing that bad, we're thriving because of democracy (take a look at North Korea, now compare that with South Korea, see what I mean?) the problem is specifically that Americas are getting lazy. We're not thinking anymore! So the next time that you see a warning label on matches that reads "DANGER Flammable" or you have to buckle yourself in because "Hey it's the law kids!" just think, please thats all I ask of you America THINK and surely we'll be able to survive the winter (might need a warning label on that soon too "DANGER winter is cold").

Nice observations duddey...

the new law that says you must wear a seatbelt is outragious. where do the politicians get off telling me what i can do in my own property. what will they tell me next that when i go to bed i have to stap myself in so i don't fall out of bed. my car is my property i can do as i please with it and in it as long as i dont indanger the lives of others. this is an example of how the goovt slowly takes away little rights that dont seem to bad until one morning we wake up and have no more liberties and freedoms.

medicare is a dying program that has done nothing for this country and never will. socialized medacine is the worst thing in the world and thats basically what medicare is at its most basic level.

Heh... Fellow New Yorkers! Salutations from the Western edge of the "Vampire State"... (Sucking you dry with taxes & fees)

You think the seatbelt business is bad?
Are you aware that the State Senate/Assembly made itself exempt from thr Freedom of Information Act so that they don't have to reveal exactly how it is that they arrive at their oh-so-wise decisions in running our fair state...
Makes me want to roam the borders seeking "Welcome to NY" signs adding "Soviet Socialist Republic of..."

Killjoy
it is so nice to have a fellow, im think, republican on these forums.

yes i think its bad. is a car not your property? then why shouldn't you have the last say as to what goes on in your own property. New Jersey is passing a law where you can be fined and taken to court for, changing the radio station, drinking or eating, talking on a phone even when it is hands free, and basical anything eles which may even for a second take your eyes off the road. and who decides what counts as an infraction the policehave the final say so if they see anything they don't like your screwed. mind you this isn't just a small fine if you can call 500 dollars small but for a first offense you can go to jail for six months and a second offense will get you even more time. that is why im aginst the seatbelt law. cause you never know when new rights will be taken away, it starts off small but then more and more rights are taken away. thats why i am afraid of these new laws which encrouch on our rights.

can you imagine that new york has made it except from the Freedom of Info act it kinda makes you wonder what hillary is up to.

If you think your politicians are doing a bad job, get involved yourself. Run for office. Work your way up and make a difference. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and whinge.

i would but im not quite old enough to do that. so this is a good way to express ideas and opinions. there arent enough ways for people to do that but this is a rather good one i believe.

AvatarOfWoe I'm not a Republican by registration, but definitely in the conservative camp...

OY! Hillary! :mad: Don't get me started! You can almost feel sorry for all the nits who voted for her thinking that her "Washington connections" would help out NY when "comrade" Gore won the presidency... oops!

JR
Run for Office...
Closest I ever came to this was being elected to a local Conservative party commitee whose main purpose appeared to be determining who would run for office on the Conservative ticket in NY...
Seeing one's own name on a ballot list in a voting booth was truly surreal.
I will, however, freely confess that I do not possess that nebulous quality of being a "people person" seemingly required to make it in politics...

Originally posted by Abdiel
Duddeyhed


Governments all over the world have been, for the longest time corrupt. I must agree with Avatar and Killjoy for example you know in New York state it's now a crime if you don't wear your seatbelt? Now think about this for a moment here and try to tell me that the government isn't trying to think for us.
Their're enforcing that I have to wear a seatbelt everytime I get into a car or I'll be fined! I'm not saying that the law doesn't make sense of course lots of people would be saved by wearing seatbelts, that not the point though. The point is shouldn't I have the right to decide for myself? Now the government has taken another step, made another law, so that I don't have to think as much. "Well thats a law so I have to do it" I ask why? Why does it have to be a law to wear a freaking seatbelt!!!!!!!!
Now as for our rights, medicare, listen I personally believe that medicare should be cut down. For the point being that people who didn't wish to save enough money for themselves now want us to take care of them. The government is diverting funds away from education for this. To go agianst senior citizens in this country is death to any politician. They're moving funds from the future of America (the youth) to the old and sorry to say this but least beneficial group! Take this instince, you work hard to get your A+ in chemistry. Now to aid a D- student the government is going to take some of your grade and give it to that student so we can all get by.
I know that isn't the best example. Alright well, America isn't doing that bad, we're thriving because of democracy (take a look at North Korea, now compare that with South Korea, see what I mean?) the problem is specifically that Americas are getting lazy. We're not thinking anymore! So the next time that you see a warning label on matches that reads "DANGER Flammable" or you have to buckle yourself in because "Hey it's the law kids!" just think, please thats all I ask of you America THINK and surely we'll be able to survive the winter (might need a warning label on that soon too "DANGER winter is cold").

Nice observations duddey...

That seatbelt law really is not necessary. I take your point that lberty is slowly being eroded away and it's scary.

As for medicare: I'm not sure that the medicare system in Australia is the same as the medicare system in the US. Medicare has helped many people over its existence. Again, I don't know the details but I know that the government has, in the last few years, been favouring private health care systems and facilities. I don't know how, but what I gather is that this leads, yet again, to the rich gaining the upper hand on something as important as health care as the poor cannot afford it. It seems convient that the Government would be wanting to change Medicare following these events.

When you talk about people who diddn't want to save money for themselves I'll just say that you might be a bit hasty in your judgement. There might be more factors than pure laziness that puts these people into this sort of a position.

And I'd question America's 'democratic' worth. You yourself say that Americans aren't thinking. How valid is a democracy if its citizen's don't think?

Originally posted by AvatarOfWoe
New Jersey is passing a law where you can be fined and taken to court for, changing the radio station, drinking or eating, talking on a phone even when it is hands free, and basical anything eles which may even for a second take your eyes off the road.

I actually see the value in these laws. The seatbelt one is stupid but these make much more sense.
Generally, you'd have to be an idiot not to wear your seatbelt right? It is for your own protection. If you don't wear it, you put yourself, and not others in danger.
With the other proposed laws, it not only puts you in danger but others around you too. It's fair to disallow people to do something that may cause them, at their own fault, to cause injury to someone else. Do you see what I'm getting at?

can you imagine that new york has made it except from the Freedom of Info act it kinda makes you wonder what hillary is up to.

something smells corrupt...:bugeye:

Originally posted by James R
If you think your politicians are doing a bad job, get involved yourself. Run for office. Work your way up and make a difference. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and whinge.

It is very easy to sit on the sidelines and whinge. But often, that's all that you really can do, but point out issues as opposed to whinge.

Do you really believe that someone like me, with the things I have to say could really make it anyway? Which political party would take on a member who shouts 'CORRUPTION!' It's not going to happen anytime soon. This is as good as we can do for now, disscuss, inform and protest.

Australia is apparently a nation were multiculturalism is embraced. Perhaps, but its more like, where multiculturalism is embraces so long as the white Australians keep the high positions. Me, having immigrated here with my parents would have little chance getting my message accross through politics.

Originally posted by Dudeyhed
I actually see the value in these laws. The seatbelt one is stupid but these make much more sense.
Generally, you'd have to be an idiot not to wear your seatbelt right? It is for your own protection. If you don't wear it, you put yourself, and not others in danger.
With the other proposed laws, it not only puts you in danger but others around you too. It's fair to disallow people to do something that may cause them, at their own fault, to cause injury to someone else. Do you see what I'm getting at?



do you realize the absertity of this law. this means that if a cop sees you change the radio station its an automatic trip to prison for the next six months to think about changing that station. where do the politicians get off amking laws telling me what to do in my own property.

us conservatives gotta stick together here. theres not many of us.