I have a question that I'm sure some of you know and will be able to answer.
Over the years I've noticed that the Religions that come from the Middle East, such as Christianity and Islam are always finding demons and enemies at every corner. There seems to be no end to the enemies they are able to find. The human Physic being as it is, I see this as a little normal………….. Stupid in this day and age, but kind of normal, in a real pain in the ass way. Also it appears that that part of the world is highly emotional and unstable, sometimes rightfully so, but other times not.
Anyway my question is 'Do all the Major Religions have this Phobia'? Is 'Its Us Against Them' the common theme in religions? I know it is in Government, Politics, Business, and Organized Religions in this country.

I don't know if you consider Wicca to be a "major" religion. I am just starting to learn about it, and I have found no enemies other than negative thought mentioned in my reading so far.

Blue
Thanks.
Wicca is new to me. Where on the Web can I find some info ????????

Zapper -

Try www.witchesweb.com. (http://www.witchesweb.com.) That's the first site I went to, and thought it was pretty informative. There's an essay in there somewhere that covers the basics that was very well put together.

I don't know how accurate it is, but my impression has been that all religions are pretty mellow at the outset. Christianity and Islam were very peaceful and tolerant in the beginning. Then, they degenerated into their present state. Not all religions are like that, though. For example, Zionism is still a pretty peaceful tradition (except in Israel, but that's a pretty hostile nationalistic/territorial situation down there, for any religion.) I'm sure there are other more peaceful traditions. I think the major fault with the hostile religions is their postulation of the fight between good and evil. Once you have such a premise, it is easy to slide down the slope of imagining oneself good, and any dissenters evil.

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I am; therefore I think.

"organized religion is for the week minded"
said someone and it is. but, i dodnt understand why some religions like christianity are so mean to other religions?!? they just dont get the fact that there religion kinda sux. the only religion that i can agree with is the jedi religion, cause that would be sooo rad

thats all i got

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dexter

Dexter,

I believe it was Jesse Ventura who said that.

Religion in and of itself is not such a bad thing. But when an organization such as a church finds that it's followers start feeling too good about things, or else when they start asking questions the authorities don't want to have to answer, an instant enemy is created to keep the faithful in line. It's all about power.

Perhaps one of the reasons tha Wicca doesn't seem to have any enemies that they use in this way is because of the genral avoidance of politics within the group. There are ranks, as there are going to be with any social animal, but it seems that no rank is regarded as "lower" than any other. There is no quest for power (in the conventional sense of the word), therefore there is no need to keep anyone in line.

I inadvertently walked in on a Wiccan get-together. I was drawn by a song or a chant, whichever, and found a small gathering. I was invited to sit with them, but declined respectfully, explaining that I had too much of the warrior in me to buy any of that 'peace, love, and trailmix' stuff. I was surprised by the priestess's (I guess that what's she was) renewed invitation, saying that she felt comfortable that the "warrior spirit" in me would stay alert for any who would disrupt their rite. I felt honored to be their guard, even if only symbolically. There were no attempts to convert me, only to make me feel comfortable. When all was done, we parted ways. I don't think these people had the capacity for hate necessary to create an enemy of any kind. They were just too accepting of differences.

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited November 10, 1999).]

this is because i'm young huh, ya it is. but then that means that my friend copies some guy that copied ace, whatta loser


thats all i got

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dexter

One key fact needs to be realized here. The Church (catholic, protestant, lutheran, etc.)does not equal christianity. I am a christian, but I dont go to church. Being a christian does not mean you have to have enemies and hate people. The entire concept of christianity is love and forgiveness. Don't judge the entire religion by the actions of the church. And I hate to burst your bubble, but witches (or Wicca if you want to call them that) have a disagreement with just about every organized religion out there.

No bubbles bursting here, Corporal. I'm not in the middle of Wicca, so I can't speak with any authority. I have never seen any battles going on, not like, say, Northern Ireland. Although there may be disagreements, is there necessarily hate? I haven't seen any pogroms, no "sky clad" people burning churches, witches blowing up the World Trade Center, nor have I seen the Wiccan Grand Poobah find it necessary to apologize for anything like the Salem Witch Trials.

At any rate, the incident I relayed was a first impression, and so far I have encountered nothing to contradict it. Would you care to enlighten me?

No, I would not care to enlighten you.

A problem in using examples such as Northern Ireland and the Salem Witch Trials is that that is not a result of religion, but government. Religion is involved, but it is not the root cause.

In each of the cases I called forth, the church was in a very powerful position to stop what was going on, and yet they did nothing. There were good individuals who called for a stop to the madness, but the church authorities, who in both cases packed a lot of influence, could have saved so many with a little muscle flexing and yet sat idly by as long as THEIR faithful kept tithing.

PS: Why not enlighten me? You do have something to support your statement, don't you? Or are you just playing Devil's Advocate (an admittably fun role)?

I can support my statements. Lets look at the Salem Witch Trials. What was the church supposed to stop? Sure, they should have done it in hindsight. But the bible does very specifically say that witches must be killed, and the church honestly believed those killed and accused to be witches.

Sorry to jump in, but therein lies the problem! You just don't have holy books instruct people to kill. It's a bad, bad thing. Just look what happens.

Religion is supposed to be about peace and love. NOT about conflict or struggle. In my opinion, Christianity has enough of the former, but it's all overshadowed and often made irrelevant by the latter.

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I am; therefore I think.

Thank you, Boris.

Corp.Hudson - you do realize you have just contradicted yourself, don't you?

You say first "The entire concept of christianity is love and forgiveness." You then in one of your next posts say "But the bible does very specifically say that witches must be killed..."

So which is it? Or is the Bible not part of the concept of Christianity?

Furthermore, I wonder what you mean when you state that witches have a "disagreement" with just about every organized religion. Disagreement - as in don't believe in the same God? As in don't follow the same texts? Sure Wicca disagrees with a lot of the other religions, but answer me this - which two religions agree with eachother?? You can make that same broad, misleading statement about any religion, organized or not. Shame on you. At least try to come up with arguments that are valid.

Directing this to everyone...

You might be interested to learn what the Wiccan Rede is. It is simply this:

An' it harm none, do as thou wilt.

Wiccans strongly believe in Karma - what goes around comes around. Therefore they cannot harm someone else without harming themselves. This is expressed in their "3-fold law", which is too in-depth to describe in these posts, but basically the three folds are:

1. As we do anything, it is either inteded to be positive, neutral or negative. If it is positive, the energy manifested is positive, and etc. Since the deed or thought is originated with us, the energy then affects us, either positively, neutrally or negatively.

2. Our actions affect others directly, and since we are all living in the same world, all part of the same existence, if you harm others, inevitably that harm will come around and affect you.

3. Our deep mind knows whether we are intending harm or not, and we will punish ourselves internally for causing harm. If we see we have helped or healed someone, we will reward ourselves internally for the good deed.

So, as you see, a TRUE witch wouldn't harm another person, if only for the fact that it will come back and bite them in the butt three times. Sort of a "don't cut off your nose to spite your face" kind of logic.

The really nice thing about Wicca is that there is no Pope, no one person that is the end-all, be-all answer to all the questions. It recognizes that even the greenest novice may have wisdom that surpasses the most experienced Priest/ess. Wicca is very flexible, and allows you to take what you will from it. You don't need to be in a coven to be a legitimate witch. There are Solitary Wiccans that practice alone, or just with their small family group.

The religion is very flexible, and not exclusive of anyone, no matter your color, language, other religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. Can anyone say that about any other religion????

Damn, I'm converting myself to Wicca just posting here! :)

Corp.Hudson
According to the documentary I saw on A&E, many of the accusers were of the Church and were very much interested in gaining control of the land of the accused.
Secondly what gives you are anyone the right to put someone to death because some dam book says to do it. If I read something out of Charles Mansons writing, is it OK for me to believe in him and his
movement and go out and kill ?
This is the whole dam point and "YOU JUST DON’T GET IT". Get off
your self appointed throne and get real about the world. You have absolutely
no right to do these things because you read it in some book that many people
do not accept or believe is the "Truth".
I’m sick of people like Jerry Farwell stirring up shit constantly over some
petty ass things. If he would get out of his thousand dollar suits and do what
he should be doing, we might have a more peaceful place to live in. But no, it’s
more fun for him to say "the women’s lib is nothing but lesbians" or whatever
kind of garbage his crummy mind can come up with.
I had no problem with you being a "Christian" until you came across
with this shit about the Bible supporting the killing of witches. I’m sure it does
support it, but surly you can shuffle through this kind of garbage and pull out
better stuff than that to live by from the Bible. This is the kind of shit that most
of the anti Religion and anti Christian people are talking about, and you still don’t
seem to get it. Maybe you don’t want to.

The chruch did not accuse anyone. The church convicted people who had been accused. The townspeople of salem did the accusing. The thing about gaining control of land is partially true. Most of that probably comes from Arthur Millers play, The Crucible. There may be some basis in reality, though it cannot be proven.
I never said I had a right to put someone to death because a book says to. I do not believe that I should go around killing witches. I was just saying that the Puritans were not just making up random enemies.
I am not on any self-appointed throne. I am not self-righteous. I do not believe I have the power of god behind me. I dont even know if i believe in god.
I am just telling what is in the bible, to show the mindset of the puritans. I do not want to go around killing people. And the bible is not just "some book." Whether or not you believe in its teachings, you must respect its history and understand the difference between it, and the writings of Charles Manson. The bible provides a great historical (yes, there are proven facts in the bible that correspond with archeological data) account of the jews and the surrounding cultures. It helps people understand the religious customs of other cultures.

"This is the kind of shit that most
of the anti Religion and anti Christian people are talking about, and you still don’t seem to get it. Maybe you don’t want to." ... what kind of shit are you talking about? You surely cannot blame me for the actions of a few overzealous religous officials.

Corp.Hudson

I over reacted and do apolgize for that. I don't like people who act this way and I'm upset that I did. This kind of bashing serves no purpose to anyone and was pretty shitty behavior on my part.
I still do not agree with some of what you have said. Right now I'm busy and cannot take the time to address this, but I will soon in a less judgemental way.
The one thing that I truely do believe in, is the right to speak your opinion without be attacked by others in a vicious way.


[This message has been edited by Zapper (edited November 15, 1999).]

Damn straight!! ;)

Corp.Hudson

Consider the following conversation between two people, one who believes the Bible is the Word of God, and the other who believes in God, but believes the Bible is simply a somewhat accurate summary of the early history of the area it was written in:

BELIVER: Did you hear they found proof..........
NON-BELEVER: No, but I don't believe the Bible literally anyway.
BELIVER: But the Bible says.......

There seems to be a stumbling block for Believer. He/she doesn't seem to get the point that any reference to something that the Non-Believer only considers to contain half-truths about history has little credibility to him. If a person believes Crop Circles are man made, then trying to use them as proof of Aliens visiting the Earth is simply useless.

posted November 11, 1999 04:56 PM

"A problem in using examples such as Northern Ireland and the Salem Witch Trials is that that is not a result of religion, but government. Religion is involved, but it is not the root cause."

posted November 11, 1999 08:14 PM

"But the bible does very specifically say that witches must be killed, and the
church honestly believed those killed and accused to be witches."

I think you contradicted yourself here, it sounds like religion did and does play a big role, but really that's not even my point, we all generally end up contradicting ourselves in a complex subject that has as many gray areas as religion.

I don't care what the Bible says. I don't accept this as "the truth" and I don't care what you call the book. I believe I have good reason in coming to this conclusion. I'm not going to rehash the whole thing because others have said it over and over and it's crazy to keep on saying the same things.

posted November 12, 1999 04:53 PM

"And the bible is not just "some book." Whether or not you believe in its teachings, you must respect its history and understand the difference between it, and the writings of Charles Manson."

Comparing the bible to Charles Mansons writing is a bit too much, but here again you are putting a great deal of importance to a book that I may consider equal to my sixth grade history book. I feel I should respect your feelings about this book and not be crude, but only to that point.

Believe it or not I'm not on a crusade to prove, or disprove the existence of God, or have all the Bibles in the world burned. I'ts sad but we live in a world where people want you to believe as they do or blow you away over issues that cannot be proven in one way or the other, and many of the so called good religious continue to throw gas on the fire.

Most of us do not accept the excuse that "it came from the top down" as claimed in the German War Crime trials and I don't accept "its in the bible" as a excuse for past behavior relating to religion or
Christianity.

The bible is not equal to your sixth grade history text. It is an amazing piece of literary achievement, whether or not you believe in the text of the bible. The bible is like the Iliad, or The Odysey (I mispelled that). The bible is a wonderful historical chronology of the events that unfolded in the middle east. The events in the bible can be matched up with archeological finds.

The bible contains wonderfully written books, poems and songs. It is simply an amazing achievement, and should be recognized as such.

About the Salem Witch Trials: The events unfolded as a result of the theocracy. That leads to some confusion on whether it is a church or governmental issue.

Corporal- I believe at the time of the Salem Witch Trials the church and state were pretty much one.

Buddhism, from what I know of it, is an excellent example of a religion with no enemies. The only enemy is elements of yourself... which you have to get rid of in order to become enlightended.

Christianity (true christianity, not the perverted Jerry Falwell version of it) has no enemies. Love the sinner, hate the sin.