This memory pill actually exists and they use it for treating PTSD (war/rape/calamity victims).

So here is the scenario:

You were raped. (If you are male you were sodomized with a toilette plunger). Your raper was caught and will stand on trial, and you have to testify against him, but:

You are are offered to take the memory pill, that willl COMPLETELY erase the memory of the rape. But as a kicker, since the only evidence against him is your word/testimony, you can not testify because well, you won't remember.

Would you take the pill and forget about rape and also justice, or would you want to keep the memory with you for the rest of your life?

Why can't we just testify, then take the pill once the trials overwith? I'd do that!

Women are the most delicate creatures. When was the last time you heard of a guy filing complaints of rape? Any guy that does that should be checked. Women always wear provocative dresses, knowing fully well the possible consequences, and those women that don't are still under threat because of the actions of other women. I think if rape should be outlawed, infidelity should be outlawed too. In infidelity, the perpetrator is indirectly raping the sanctity and wholesomeness of the cocoon called the relationship between him and his wife. But men will never illegalize infidelity; it’s much too inferior for a real punishment. Don’t get me wrong, women cheat too, that’s just totally under the radar. Sometimes an example can be made out of infidels; President Clinton was a good scape goat. However, Clinton had three counts of cheating, he just over did it, and he started making the American Executive system look bad. To me, its impossible to eradicate infidelity, many great people were born out of infidelity (ironic use of grammar and syntax). It seems to me it’s virtually impossible for one woman to forever satisfy one guy, I mean, what’s a guy going to use to arouse himself when the time comes…other than another woman? Which brings us to Viagra, a pill made specifically to stimulate the living hell of of guys? Like guys are not horny enough. Sexual aphrodisiacs or stimulants are created by corporate-government bin bags to make men even go crazier, which even has a higher chance of leading to infidelity. Men will not stop cheating, the complex situation will only double in magnitude; men will keep cheating but much more. All you have to do is make Viagra an OTC drug, and I guarantee you high school boys will be humping their female teachers. So there, the same governmenmt that sanctioned Mr. Clinton is indirectly legalizing infidelity, but governments have never been really good at social studies.

Women are the most delicate creatures. When was the last time you heard of a guy filing complaints of rape? Any guy that does that should be checked. Women always wear provocative dresses, knowing fully well the possible consequences, and those women that don't are still under threat because of the actions of other women. I think if rape should be outlawed, infidelity should be outlawed too. In infidelity, the perpetrator is indirectly raping the sanctity and wholesomeness of the cocoon called the relationship between him and his wife. But men will never illegalize infidelity; it’s much too inferior for a real punishment. Don’t get me wrong, women cheat too, that’s just totally under the radar. Sometimes an example can be made out of infidels; President Clinton was a good scape goat. However, Clinton had three counts of cheating, he just over did it, and he started making the American Executive system look bad. To me, its impossible to eradicate infidelity, many great people were born out of infidelity (ironic use of grammar and syntax). It seems to me it’s virtually impossible for one woman to forever satisfy one guy, I mean, what’s a guy going to use to arouse himself when the time comes…other than another woman? Which brings us to Viagra, a pill made specifically to stimulate the living hell of of guys? Like guys are not horny enough. Sexual aphrodisiacs or stimulants are created by corporate-government bin bags to make men even go crazier, which even has a higher chance of leading to infidelity. Men will not stop cheating, the complex situation will only double in magnitude; men will keep cheating but much more. All you have to do is make Viagra an OTC drug, and I guarantee you high school boys will be humping their female teachers. So there, the same governmenmt that sanctioned Mr. Clinton is indirectly legalizing infidelity, but governments have never been really good at social studies. A serial rapist has been making the news in Houston. He rapes men at gunpoint. Described as black, about 6ft tall. Targeting Hispanic males 18-25. Men DO get raped and it rarely gets reported because of views like yours, that something is wrong with a man that is a victim of rape. Almost a dozen men have reported rape by the Houston guy. Imagine the real number. It is believed he is targeting Hispanics because they are smaller and less likely to report rape. Cultural reasons and of course some may fear police because of immigration status.

Chatha has just entered my Ignore list. 2 stupidities in 5 mins is just more than I can bear....

Women are the most delicate creatures. When was the last time you heard of a guy filing complaints of rape? Any guy that does that should be checked. Women always wear provocative dresses, knowing fully well the possible consequences, and those women that don't are still under threat because of the actions of other women. I think if rape should be outlawed, infidelity should be outlawed too. In infidelity, the perpetrator is indirectly raping the sanctity and wholesomeness of the cocoon called the relationship between him and his wife. But men will never illegalize infidelity; it’s much too inferior for a real punishment. Don’t get me wrong, women cheat too, that’s just totally under the radar. Sometimes an example can be made out of infidels; President Clinton was a good scape goat. However, Clinton had three counts of cheating, he just over did it, and he started making the American Executive system look bad. To me, its impossible to eradicate infidelity, many great people were born out of infidelity (ironic use of grammar and syntax). It seems to me it’s virtually impossible for one woman to forever satisfy one guy, I mean, what’s a guy going to use to arouse himself when the time comes…other than another woman? Which brings us to Viagra, a pill made specifically to stimulate the living hell of of guys? Like guys are not horny enough. Sexual aphrodisiacs or stimulants are created by corporate-government bin bags to make men even go crazier, which even has a higher chance of leading to infidelity. Men will not stop cheating, the complex situation will only double in magnitude; men will keep cheating but much more. All you have to do is make Viagra an OTC drug, and I guarantee you high school boys will be humping their female teachers. So there, the same governmenmt that sanctioned Mr. Clinton is indirectly legalizing infidelity, but governments have never been really good at social studies.

Are you baiting people or are you really this ignorant? Women are delicate because they report rape? Too bad Jeffery Damer didn't get a hold of you...I'd like to see how indelicate you would be after he was done with you.

Chatha has just entered my Ignore list. 2 stupidities in 5 mins is just more than I can bear....

seriously

I heard about the pill that you are talking about. The drug (Propanonol) doesn’t actually erase the person’s memory. It takes away the stressful chemical reaction that occurs in a person’s body when they’re thinking about the event. The person would remember the details of the rape, but they would not experience any fear or anxeity when they remembered the details of the event.

An article about the subject.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0729_050729_PTSDpill.html

Women are the most delicate creatures. When was the last time you heard of a guy filing complaints of rape? Any guy that does that should be checked. Women always wear provocative dresses, knowing fully well the possible consequences, and those women that don't are still under threat because of the actions of other women. I think if rape should be outlawed, infidelity should be outlawed too. In infidelity, the perpetrator is indirectly raping the sanctity and wholesomeness of the cocoon called the relationship between him and his wife. But men will never illegalize infidelity; it’s much too inferior for a real punishment. Don’t get me wrong, women cheat too, that’s just totally under the radar. Sometimes an example can be made out of infidels; President Clinton was a good scape goat. However, Clinton had three counts of cheating, he just over did it, and he started making the American Executive system look bad. To me, its impossible to eradicate infidelity, many great people were born out of infidelity (ironic use of grammar and syntax). It seems to me it’s virtually impossible for one woman to forever satisfy one guy, I mean, what’s a guy going to use to arouse himself when the time comes…other than another woman? Which brings us to Viagra, a pill made specifically to stimulate the living hell of of guys? Like guys are not horny enough. Sexual aphrodisiacs or stimulants are created by corporate-government bin bags to make men even go crazier, which even has a higher chance of leading to infidelity. Men will not stop cheating, the complex situation will only double in magnitude; men will keep cheating but much more. All you have to do is make Viagra an OTC drug, and I guarantee you high school boys will be humping their female teachers. So there, the same governmenmt that sanctioned Mr. Clinton is indirectly legalizing infidelity, but governments have never been really good at social studies.

Maybe it is time you stopped rubbing those two stones together by the fire and left the dark ages behind? Hmmm?

Men are raped and many do report it. The majority however do not because they are embarrassed and ashamed of what has happened to them. The same with many women who never report being raped. And why do so many rape victims feel that there is somehow something wrong with them? Because there are still people like you roaming the streets.

A rape is a horrendous and violent crime and all victims who have had to undergo the horror of a rape should be encouraged to report it, regardless of their sex.

Your view of women and men has shown you to be a misogynist and also a hateful individual. You have some serious issues that you need professional help with. Maybe instead of posting on here, your time would be better spent getting the help you obviously desperately need.

Maybe it is time you stopped rubbing those two stones together by the fire and left the dark ages behind? Hmmm?

Men are raped and many do report it. The majority however do not because they are embarrassed and ashamed of what has happened to them. The same with many women who never report being raped. And why do so many rape victims feel that there is somehow something wrong with them? Because there are still people like you roaming the streets.

A rape is a horrendous and violent crime and all victims who have had to undergo the horror of a rape should be encouraged to report it, regardless of their sex.

Your view of women and men has shown you to be a misogynist and also a hateful individual. You have some serious issues that you need professional help with. Maybe instead of posting on here, your time would be better spent getting the help you obviously desperately need.Couldn't have said it better myself.

Actually, police statistics prove me to be right. Most victims of rape reports are women. Yes, women are delicate because they do wear provocative cloths, not all of them, but just enough to make men think women are either teasing or deserve a little "tender attention".

jessiej920,
I don't understand what your problem is. What's wrong with being delicate? Aren'ty women delicate? You guys are at it again, one minute its "we are made of sugar and spice", next minute its "women are equal to men".

Bells,
A rape is a horrendous and violent crime and all victims who have had to undergo the horror of a rape should be encouraged to report it, regardless of their sexShut the hell up. First of all, there is no fucking way I am reporting a woman raping me. I am way too much of a man for that. I might be in the stone age, but at least I am not a modern water-laden puff fairy. Modernism is eating away the masculinity of some men, not me, lets get that straight. How will you even feel reporting such thing "excuse me sir, a gang of ladies managed to rape me and I feel violated". First of all, before a gang of ladies can rape me, it will take a lot of struggle, an almost impossible event. Now, a gang of men raping me is another case, I will probably take justice into my own hands before I file a report. If women are raping you, relax, think of it as consolidation for a thousand years of oppression. And finaly, when it comes to men, if you manage to get it up, it technicaly is not rape.

Actually, police statistics prove me to be right. Most victims of rape reports are women. Yes, women are delicate because they do wear provocative cloths, not all of them, but just enough to make men think women are either teasing or deserve a little "tender attention".

jessiej920,
I don't understand what your problem is. What's wrong with being delicate? Aren'ty women delicate? You guys are at it again, one minute its "we are made of sugar and spice", next minute its "women are equal to men".

Shut the hell up. First of all, there is no fucking way I am reporting a woman raping me. I am way too much of a man for that. I might be in the stone age, but at least I am not a modern water-laden puff fairy. Modernism is eating away the masculinity of some men, not me, lets get that straight. How will you even feel reporting such thing "excuse me sir, a gang of ladies managed to rape me and I feel violated". First of all, before a gang of ladies can rape me, it will take a lot of struggle, an almost impossible event. Now, a gang of men raping me is another case, I will probably take justice into my own hands before I file a report. If women are raping you, relax, think of it as consolidation for a thousand years of oppression. And finaly, when it comes to men, if you manage to get it up, it technicaly is not rape.Visit Houston sometime and find out what it's like before you stand on victim's shoulders to denounce people that have been through rape. Only the most insecure man would feel the need to overexpress how 'manly' he wishes he was.:rolleyes: (Chatha must be a 12 year old.)

Why can't we just testify, then take the pill once the trials overwith? I'd do that!

I've never heard of this drug, but the only way I can imagine it working is that it prevents short term memory from potentiating into long term memory. This means there is a limited span of time in which the drug will have any effect. By the time any trial takes place, the memory will be set for life.

Thats it. There are three types of people on sciforums; mind readers, immature people with no frame of reality, and just plain stupid people. Tell me, how have I denounced rape victims? And what makes you think I have a need to over emphasize my manliness, other than the fact that I was merely expressing myself?

Actually, police statistics prove me to be right. Most victims of rape reports are women.
100% of the people raped in men's prisons... are men. It's estimated that male-on-male rape in prison outnumbers male-on-female rape outside.

You, Sir, are a dick. Prison beckons you. As they're breaking you in with the wrong end of a toothbrush be sure to point out through the tears that you 'aren't dressed provocatively'.

a pill to remove memories..... hard to believe.

-MT

Actually, police statistics prove me to be right. Most victims of rape reports are women. Yes, women are delicate because they do wear provocative cloths, not all of them, but just enough to make men think women are either teasing or deserve a little "tender attention".

jessiej920,
I don't understand what your problem is. What's wrong with being delicate? Aren'ty women delicate? You guys are at it again, one minute its "we are made of sugar and spice", next minute its "women are equal to men".

Shut the hell up. First of all, there is no fucking way I am reporting a woman raping me. I am way too much of a man for that. I might be in the stone age, but at least I am not a modern water-laden puff fairy. Modernism is eating away the masculinity of some men, not me, lets get that straight. How will you even feel reporting such thing "excuse me sir, a gang of ladies managed to rape me and I feel violated". First of all, before a gang of ladies can rape me, it will take a lot of struggle, an almost impossible event. Now, a gang of men raping me is another case, I will probably take justice into my own hands before I file a report. If women are raping you, relax, think of it as consolidation for a thousand years of oppression. And finaly, when it comes to men, if you manage to get it up, it technicaly is not rape.

"Women are delicate because they wear provocative clothes..." Hmmmm...You must be one of those stupid people that haunt Sci Forums that is out of touch with reality. Wait...you could be that immature guy too. You are pretty much saying that any woman who gets raped is asking for it and any man who reports rape is a wimp...right. Well how do you classify little children? Was the nice little 7 year old wearing "provocative clothing" when she got raped by the big mean man? Was she asking for a little "tender attention"? I certainly hope that if your wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister ever gets raped you don't tell them they deserved it...though from the way you went about "expressing yourself" that seems like a likely response for you. What is my problem? You are an ignorant idiot. That's my problem. Forgive me for expressing MYSELF.

Actually, police statistics prove me to be right. Most victims of rape reports are women. Yes, women are delicate because they do wear provocative cloths, not all of them, but just enough to make men think women are either teasing or deserve a little "tender attention".

Misogynist.

You really hate women so much that you blame them for something that is completely out of their control? Is that your excuse?

Shut the hell up.
Do you have issues with women daring to point out your inadequacies as a human being?

Oh and don't tell me to shut up. This is the internet. Your telling me to 'shut up' is not only pathetic but also idiotic.

First of all, there is no fucking way I am reporting a woman raping me. I am way too much of a man for that.
LOL!

Whoa, we have a man here ladies and gentlemen! How about a woman who rapes you, falls pregnant and then takes you to court for all that you might be worth? How about a woman who rapes you and passes on an STD or HIV, ruining your chances for life? How about a woman who rapes you, knocks you out and then castrates you?

But hey... you da man right? Please. A real man recognises a rape and knows what a rape is. A real man also would not make such comments about women's clothing in regards to rape.

I might be in the stone age, but at least I am not a modern water-laden puff fairy. Modernism is eating away the masculinity of some men, not me, lets get that straight.
Oh you mean you just failed to evolve with the rest of humanity? Instead you prefer to think that you are some kind of neanderthal who views women as objects and men as men who are never raped because they cannot be raped? Right. Sure. What ever you say. You just move back into that little cave of yours and sit by the fire and hope like hell 'Ugg' walks by with her knuckles dragging on the ground so you can club her over the head.

Because if this is your attitude towards women and men, I doubt you will find a suitable mate anytime soon.

How will you even feel reporting such thing "excuse me sir, a gang of ladies managed to rape me and I feel violated". First of all, before a gang of ladies can rape me, it will take a lot of struggle, an almost impossible event.
It is obvious you do not even know what the definition of rape is. Rape is sex without consent. Now imagine you are with a woman and she starts pushing herself onto you. You aren't interested and try to tell her no. You're a bit drunk and she starts plying you with alcohol. You keep saying no and she just keeps at you. Finally she takes you home, you are too drunk to know what the hell you are doing. She then strips you naked and rapes you. If you are lucky you get to walk away intact. If you are unlucky she can either 1) get pregnant and then claim more than half of your income.. 2) she gives you HIV or another nasty STD.. or 3) she castrates you as you sleep and you wake up in shock to find your nuts and penis in a jar on the bedside table.

Now imagine if she gets pregnant. She takes you to court. Would you claim the sex was non-consentual? Or would you be a real "man" and simply fork out all your money to pay for the child? What about if she passes on an STD. You then go on and have sex with other women infecting them. Imagine if its AIDS. They then take you to court and you then think back and realised the woman who RAPED you gave you HIV. You wouldn't want to press charges against her? Ah but you're a "man" right? And if she castrates you after raping you? Well no, you'll just put a band-aid where your penis used to be and pretend it never happened. Please. Your words have only shown you to be nothing but a wuss. Only a coward says what you have said Chap.

Now, a gang of men raping me is another case, I will probably take justice into my own hands before I file a report. If women are raping you, relax, think of it as consolidation for a thousand years of oppression. And finaly, when it comes to men, if you manage to get it up, it technicaly is not rape.
Again, you have shown yourself to be a weak individual who does not even know what constitutes a rape. You also know nothing about male physiology.

I've never heard of this drug, but the only way I can imagine it working is that it prevents short term memory from potentiating into long term memory. This means there is a limited span of time in which the drug will have any effect. By the time any trial takes place, the memory will be set for life.


Correct. At least that's how it was explained on Boston legal.

Also people, let's try not to change the scenario, I made it up, you have to play by the rules. You don't like the scenario, don't answer the question...

Rape of any kinda is a crime. In fact even talking about it is a crime now, you will all be arrested and thrown into prison for discussion of it! Oh wait, lol Hey so this memory pill, Bells + others if I could be given a pill that made me not be lonely + want a gf I'd gladly take it, I'm so alone :(

Redarmy11,
100% of the people raped in men's prisons... are men. It's estimated that male-on-male rape in prison outnumbers male-on-female rape outside.

You, Sir, are a dick. Prison beckons you. As they're breaking you in with the wrong end of a toothbrush be sure to point out through the tears that you 'aren't dressed provocatively'.

You are talking about percentage wise, but more women do get raped more than men. So what has all this got to do with women being more delicate than men? Is this going to change the biological and physiological frame of both men and women? And what has all this got to do with my own position? Did you read my posts carefully?


jessiej920,
"Women are delicate because they wear provocative clothes..." Hmmmm...You must be one of those stupid people that haunt Sci Forums that is out of touch with reality. Wait...you could be that immature guy too. You are pretty much saying that any woman who gets raped is asking for it and any man who reports rape is a wimp...right. Well how do you classify little children? Was the nice little 7 year old wearing "provocative clothing" when she got raped by the big mean man? Was she asking for a little "tender attention"? I certainly hope that if your wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister ever gets raped you don't tell them they deserved it...though from the way you went about "expressing yourself" that seems like a likely response for you. What is my problem? You are an ignorant idiot. That's my problem. Forgive me for expressing MYSELF.
Since you are new, I won’t jump on you yet, I won’t call you names. I made a mistake for saying women are delicate because they wear provocative dresses, I agree on that;I should have seperated the sentence. Women are delicate because they need a lot more nurture and attention than men; this is a result of biological and socio-cultural inferences. Rape or wearing provocative outfit has nothing to do with it.

Misogynist.

You really hate women so much that you blame them for something that is completely out of their control? Is that your excuse?

Can you fuckin tell me from any sentence that I blame women for being raped? And is it not true that some rape cases were caused by provocative outfits and/or drugs? And what has this got to do with me? Did I tell you I was jesus, and that I was here to die for the sin of rape? Are you fuckin stupid?

Do you have issues with women daring to point out your inadequacies as a human being?

Oh and don't tell me to shut up. This is the internet. Your telling me to 'shut up' is not only pathetic but also idiotic.
You need to shut up because not only can’t you read properly, but you think you can read people’s minds. Put a cork in it.

LOL!

Whoa, we have a man here ladies and gentlemen! How about a woman who rapes you, falls pregnant and then takes you to court for all that you might be worth? How about a woman who rapes you and passes on an STD or HIV, ruining your chances for life? How about a woman who rapes you, knocks you out and then castrates you?

But hey... you da man right? Please. A real man recognises a rape and knows what a rape is. A real man also would not make such comments about women's clothing in regards to rape.

Now, these are different aspects of the same event, I never mentioned these instances, you are putting words in my mouth again; are you that bored or just plain daft. Yes, but like I said, I would report such cases, but I would probably take justice in my hands before I file a real report. That’s just me, but this shouldn’t have anything to do with anything. I am not interested in demonstrating my many abilities, that’s left for the sports arena, believe me.

Oh you mean you just failed to evolve with the rest of humanity? Instead you prefer to think that you are some kind of neanderthal who views women as objects and men as men who are never raped because they cannot be raped? Right. Sure. What ever you say. You just move back into that little cave of yours and sit by the fire and hope like hell 'Ugg' walks by with her knuckles dragging on the ground so you can club her over the head.

Because if this is your attitude towards women and men, I doubt you will find a suitable mate anytime soon

Believe me, I don’t have any attitude towards women. Sometimes I think there is a little too much attention towards women, attention that benefits no one, but nothing too manifest or antagonistic, I love women. Women are just like men in most instances, women can do everything men can and maybe even better. I hate giving anybody special treatment unless of they deserve it, that’s just speaking from past experience, but women are capable of evil too, which is the reason for my position of fairness. In edition of the NY post a women starved her two sons almost to death and abused them mercilessly, saved only by the arms of children services.

It is obvious you do not even know what the definition of rape is. Rape is sex without consent. Now imagine you are with a woman and she starts pushing herself onto you. You aren't interested and try to tell her no. You're a bit drunk and she starts plying you with alcohol. You keep saying no and she just keeps at you. Finally she takes you home, you are too drunk to know what the hell you are doing. She then strips you naked and rapes you. If you are lucky you get to walk away intact. If you are unlucky she can either 1) get pregnant and then claim more than half of your income.. 2) she gives you HIV or another nasty STD.. or 3) she castrates you as you sleep and you wake up in shock to find your nuts and penis in a jar on the bedside table.

Now imagine if she gets pregnant. She takes you to court. Would you claim the sex was non-consentual? Or would you be a real "man" and simply fork out all your money to pay for the child? What about if she passes on an STD. You then go on and have sex with other women infecting them. Imagine if its AIDS. They then take you to court and you then think back and realised the woman who RAPED you gave you HIV. You wouldn't want to press charges against her? Ah but you're a "man" right? And if she castrates you after raping you? Well no, you'll just put a band-aid where your penis used to be and pretend it never happened. Please. Your words have only shown you to be nothing but a wuss. Only a coward says what you have said Chap.

Has this ever happened to you? What the fuck do you think you know about rape, STD’s, and judicial affiliated cases? You keep on going on and on about how humanitarian you can be, but what the fuck has all these crap got to do with anything? Can you even explain how all this pertains to me and my rather ambivalent but sympathetic position on sex and rape. What has all this jargon got to do with “manliness”? Do you even have any idea of what we are talking about and what I am talking about? Is all this going to change the fact that women will still dress anyway they want every summer, that women prostitutes in Thailand contribute to the greatest amount of STD’s, that some women don’t realize that not all men are gentlemen who can control their sexual urge or vengeful motive, that infidelity is another form of rape because it disregards the consent of the partner. You are going to educate me on rape, but you don’t even know what the fuck you are talking about.

Again, you have shown yourself to be a weak individual who does not even know what constitutes a rape. You also know nothing about male physiology
- Well, I am happy I know nothing about rape; at least you have explained it in totality to me.

Key Facts
-Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
-One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.
In 2004-2005, there were an average annual 200,780 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
-About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
Since 1993, rape/sexual assault has fallen by over 69%.


Rapes Still Not Being Reported
The National Crime Victimization Survey includes statistics on reported and unreported crimes in America. Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes, with more than half still being left unreported. Utilizing services such as The National Sexual Assault Hotline can help encourage victims to get help and report what has happened to them so that more perpetrators can be brought to justice.

Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though it is estimated they make up 10% of all victims. Young females are four times more likely than any other group to be a victim of sexual assault....

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html



At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs...

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

Can you fuckin tell me from any sentence that I blame women for being raped?
Re-read through your posts again. It might jump out at you. I will give you a hint however. 'Provocative dress' is but one.

And is it not true that some rape cases were caused by provocative outfits and/or drugs?
No.

Here is a link (http://www.icasa.org/uploads/myths_and_facts_from_vawo.pdf) that discusses some of the commonly held myths about rape. Provocative dress and drugs are but two of them.

You need to shut up because not only can’t you read properly, but you think you can read people’s minds. Put a cork in it.
I am trying to figure out how one shuts up on an internet forum...:rolleyes:

Now, these are different aspects of the same event, I never mentioned these instances, you are putting words in my mouth again; are you that bored or just plain daft. Yes, but like I said, I would report such cases, but I would probably take justice in my hands before I file a real report. That’s just me, but this shouldn’t have anything to do with anything. I am not interested in demonstrating my many abilities, that’s left for the sports arena, believe me.
Your vigilantism aside, those are but some aspects of rape where the male is the victim and the perpetrator a woman. You also have men who are raped by other men.

but women are capable of evil too, which is the reason for my position of fairness. In edition of the NY post a women starved her two sons almost to death and abused them mercilessly, saved only by the arms of children services.

Yes, women are also capable of horrendous acts. Hence why so many of us were suprised when you said that men who are raped by women should not report it as they aren't men if they do. Rape is a horrible crime, regardless of the sex of the perpetrator and that of the victim.

Has this ever happened to you? What the fuck do you think you know about rape, STD’s, and judicial affiliated cases? You keep on going on and on about how humanitarian you can be, but what the fuck has all these crap got to do with anything? Can you even explain how all this pertains to me and my rather ambivalent but sympathetic position on sex and rape. What has all this jargon got to do with “manliness”? Do you even have any idea of what we are talking about and what I am talking about? Is all this going to change the fact that women will still dress anyway they want every summer, that women prostitutes in Thailand contribute to the greatest amount of STD’s, that some women don’t realize that not all men are gentlemen who can control their sexual urge or vengeful motive, that infidelity is another form of rape because it disregards the consent of the partner. You are going to educate me on rape, but you don’t even know what the fuck you are talking about.
Sadly, what I know of rapes would probably make your hair fall out.

This:

'some women don’t realize that not all men are gentlemen who can control their sexual urge or vengeful motive'

from you is quite telling and also disturbing. No victim is ever to blame for a rape or sexual assault upon themselves. Infidelity is not rape. It is a completely different issue.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As to the OP's question.

Interesting question. As for me, I would refuse the pill because I would want the SOB to rot in jail. If taking the so called pill meant that I could never testify against him, I would refuse, because it would mean he would have gotten away from it and would be free to roam the streets to rape again.

What the fuck do you think you know about rape, STD’s, and judicial affiliated cases?
Heh. ;)

Interesting question. As for me, I would refuse the pill because I would want the SOB to rot in jail. If taking the so called pill meant that I could never testify against him, I would refuse, because it would mean he would have gotten away from it and would be free to roam the streets to rape again.

Here is an interesting take on it. I would take the pill, then do justice on my own, let's say shooting the person in the stomach or legs a few times. If he bleeds to death, hey, whose fault is it?

Now they would put me on trial, and I could say: I don't really remember why I shot him, but he did something bad to me...

Of course I could figure out a way to screw him without getting caught...

Originally posted by bells
Re-read through your posts again. It might jump out at you. I will give you a hint however. 'Provocative dress' is but one
And am I wrong? Are you going to tell us that no time in history has provocative dressing tempted a man to rape? What has this fact really got to do with my opinion?



Here is a link that discusses some of the commonly held myths about rape. Provocative dress and drugs are but two of themHere's you making a fool of yourself again. First you deform me for bring up provocative dresses, only for you to bring up a link reinforcing the fact that provocative dressing is a factor in rape.

I am trying to figure out how one shuts up on an internet forum... You need to

Yes, women are also capable of horrendous acts. Hence why so many of us were suprised when you said that men who are raped by women should not report it as they aren't men if they do. Rape is a horrible crime, regardless of the sex of the perpetrator and that of the victim
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, its a free world. I can decide not to report if a woman rapes me(laughs). At least I'm not fooling anybody or wasting anybody's time, I believe if a guy can have an erection during unconsensual intercourse, its not rape. What the fuck is your problem?

from you is quite telling and also disturbing. No victim is ever to blame for a rape or sexual assault upon themselves. Infidelity is not rape. It is a completely different issue. No victim is ever to balme, I agree, I am not in the business of setting up a blaming comittee. However, I have to also call a spade a spade. Certain things like drugs, alchohol, and provocative outfits are factors in rape. All this things have nothing to do with me; I never forced anybody to do anything. I pointed out Viagra in my posts, why didn't you notice that?

You are talking about percentage wise, but more women do get raped more than men. So what has all this got to do with women being more delicate than men? Is this going to change the biological and physiological frame of both men and women? And what has all this got to do with my own position? Did you read my posts carefully?



Since you are new, I won’t jump on you yet, I won’t call you names. I made a mistake for saying women are delicate because they wear provocative dresses, I agree on that;I should have seperated the sentence. Women are delicate because they need a lot more nurture and attention than men; this is a result of biological and socio-cultural inferences. Rape or wearing provocative outfit has nothing to do with it.

At least you admitted to one of your stupidities. Why would you feel the need to "jump on me" or call me names? Would that make your original post less stupid? No.

And am I wrong? Are you going to tell us that no time in history has provocative dressing tempted a man to rape? What has this fact really got to do with my opinion?

I believe that we have evolved past that a long time ago. Some, however lag behind and still attribute a woman's dress as being a factor in a cause of her rape. Your saying that her dress somehow provokes the man takes away the blame from the man and places it on the woman. A woman can be dressed in a hessian sack and still be raped. The problem is in the rapist and his lack of self control. Not in his victim or how she dresses. A man's lack of self control is not the victim's fault, but the man's fault. Whatever tempts a man really means squat.

Here's you making a fool of yourself again. First you deform me for bring up provocative dresses, only for you to bring up a link reinforcing the fact that provocative dressing is a factor in rape.
I would suggest you re-read through the link again. Before you do however, you also need to learn the difference between myth and fact.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, its a free world. I can decide not to report if a woman rapes me(laughs). At least I'm not fooling anybody or wasting anybody's time, I believe if a guy can have an erection during unconsensual intercourse, its not rape. What the fuck is your problem?
I don't have a problem. You, however, does.

Your misconceptions and inability to understand what constitutes a rape is a problem because you might find yourself a victim of a rape one day and not know it, or you might find yourself as a perpetrator without even knowing it or realising it. Ignorance is not a defence.

For example (notice how I say example and this entails that I am not putting words into your mouth), you say no to a girl and you do not have an erection. She then performs oral sex. That is rape. Even if you enjoy it and ejaculate, your lack of consent means that it is rape. Rape is not about erections. Rape is about sex without consent. Rape can be oral, vaginal or anal. Once consent is withdrawn or there was no consent to begin with, it is rape. Consent also means that it has to be given without duress (through threats or fear) or pressure (eg coercion) in the present instance (as in right then and there and not because the guy had sex with her yesterday so he can automatically assume consent the next day).

I would have assumed this was fairly easy to understand, but it seems I was mistaken.

No victim is ever to balme, I agree, I am not in the business of setting up a blaming comittee. However, I have to also call a spade a spade. Certain things like drugs, alchohol, and provocative outfits are factors in rape. All this things have nothing to do with me; I never forced anybody to do anything. I pointed out Viagra in my posts, why didn't you notice that?
You don't think any victim is ever to blame, but you think she wears or does (eg drugs or alcohol) are somehow factors. Ermm ok.

I never noticed viagra in your post. What you did mention was the percentage of rapists who are under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Again, drugs and alcohol are not an excuse. Your links are working against you. I really would advise you to contact your local police station and ask them to send you some information about rape and what exactly constitutes a rape. Also ask them to send you the commonly held myths about rape and how those myths (such as provocative dress).

For example:

Myth #1: Victims provoke sexual assaults when they dress provocatively or act in a promiscuous manner.

Fact: Rape and sexual assault are crimes of violence and control that stem from a person’s determination to exercise power over another. Neither provocative dress nor promiscuous behavior are invitations for unwanted sexual activity. Forcing someone to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is sexual assault, regardless of the way that person dresses or acts.
Link (http://www.icasa.org/uploads/myths_and_facts_from_vawo.pdf)


Pay particular notice to the bold bits. Provocative dress, drugs and alcohol are not invitations nor will a court view them as excuses for a rapist. No matter what a girl wears, once she says 'no', then it is no and if the guy persists, it is sexual assault. If he then goes on to have sex with her without her consent (eg she's said no), it is rape. Simple really. I am suprised you are having such an issue with it.

Here is an interesting take on it. I would take the pill, then do justice on my own, let's say shooting the person in the stomach or legs a few times. If he bleeds to death, hey, whose fault is it?

Now they would put me on trial, and I could say: I don't really remember why I shot him, but he did something bad to me...

Of course I could figure out a way to screw him without getting caught...
Nope. Vigilante actions aren't for me. I'd want the guy to get the maximum penalty.

Plus your original post stated that once you take the pill, you would forget, so if I had taken the pill, I would feel there was no reason to shoot him.

I would not take the pill, instead I'd want his backside in jail.:)

LOL. This thread is now getting stupid, but at least bells has the decency not to directly call people names, unlike newbies like jessiej920. Bells, you seem like a decent guy but I think you are sometimes over-analyzing what what rape is or shouldn't. First of all, its not a myth that provocative dresses causes men to rape women, its a fact. Certain men see certain women everyday and it subconciously rests in their mind how wonderful it would be if they had a chance with any women at all, NOT just the one's wearing bearly there dresses. Pornography is another exampe, the society is laden with pornography with virtually any little disgression. Drugs are also a fact of rape. There was a recent rape case involving a male Mexican immigrant and a white middle class women, investigations revealed that the male was laden with cocaine and alchohol on that day. I personally don't give a rats ass if women decide to wear umbrellas, they can wear whatever they want, but I have the right to say what I want. Yes, these factors are not invitations for rape, but so are accidents due to drunk and impaired driving, spousal abuse due to alchohol, gang activities, e.t.c. We can continue to deliberate all day, but the fact is that factors are factors, there's nothing you can do about that, it doesn't mean they don't play a role, and it doesn't mean we should totaly disregard them. Personaly, I think a man that can get and sustain an erection during what is called unconsensual sexual intercause is not rape. Feelings are more important than the individual, we say what we feel, we are what we feel at certain times, and many people do certain things based on feelings. Its possible not to evolve an erection during forced sex, I certainly can do it if I really feel violated. Unless of cause the male was druged with some sort of sexual stimulant, then you can claim "under foreign duress" and negligence in the court of law. Thats just my own opinion.

What's stopping you fromtestifying before you take the pill?
I think you are sometimes over-analyzing what what rape is or shouldn't.
What's that mean?

A woman can be dressed in a hessian sack and still be raped. The problem is in the rapist and his lack of self control. Not in his victim or how she dresses.

How many fat, ugly women wearing dowdy clothing are raped per year?

A man's lack of self control is not the victim's fault, but the man's fault. Whatever tempts a man really means squat.

So temptation doesn't mean anything? If that's the case, then there should be the same number of fat, ugly women raped as are good-looking women wearing nice clothing, right? Do you have those statistics?

Rape is about sex without consent. .... Once consent is withdrawn or there was no consent to begin with, it is rape. Consent also means that it has to be given without duress...

Rape also seems to be that a woman can have consensual sex, then lie about it to the police. I would also suggest that there's been many cases of consentual sex at parties where the woman LATER decides to bring charges of rape in order to protect herself from gossip and rumor.

But, still .....I'm now really curious; how many fat, ugly women are raped per year as compared to good-looking, attractive, well-dressed women?? Anyone know??

Baron Max

What's stopping you fromtestifying before you take the pill?

The pill only works in a short timeframe, the court works in a longer one...

Baron Max,

Bells put up a link which covers your thoughts about how a woman looks/dresses in regard to rape.

Myth #8: Only young, pretty women are assaulted.
Fact: The belief that only young, pretty women are sexually assaulted stems from the myth that sexual assault is based on sex and physical attraction. Sexual assault is a crime of power and control and offenders often choose people whom they perceive as most vulnerable to attack or over whom they believe they can assert power. Sexual assault victims come from all walks of life. They can range in age from the very old to the very young. Many victims of sexual violence are under 12. Sixty-seven percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were juveniles (under the age of 18); 34% of all victims were under age 12. One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were under age 6.7 Men and boys are sexually assaulted. Persons with disabilities are also sexually assaulted. Assumptions about the “typical” sexual assault victim may further isolate those victimized because they may feel they will not be believed if they do not share the characteristics of the stereotypical sexual assault victim

Baron Max, Bells put up a link which covers your thoughts about how a woman looks/dresses in regard to rape.

No, it didn't actually answer my questions, it only continued the old bullshit that's been spouted for years and years ......with apparently little or no evidence to back it up.

"The belief that only young, pretty women are sexually assaulted stems from the myth that sexual assault is based on sex and physical attraction. Sexual assault is a crime of power and control and offenders often choose people whom they perceive as most vulnerable to attack or over whom they believe they can assert power. Sexual assault victims come from all walks of life."

If rape victims are, actually, as they say/claim, then they must have statistics to back it up. Just making that statement does NOT make it true.

So .....where are the statistics? And do the stats show that most rape victims are attractive young women?

Baron Max

After being raped, I would endure the torture of living with that knowledge, and testify, to serve justice.

After reading Chatha's posts, I would take the pill. Two of them.

The pill only works in a short timeframe, the court works in a longer one...

Then I'd take the pill.

No, it didn't actually answer my questions, it only continued the old bullshit that's been spouted for years and years ......with apparently little or no evidence to back it up.

"The belief that only young, pretty women are sexually assaulted stems from the myth that sexual assault is based on sex and physical attraction. Sexual assault is a crime of power and control and offenders often choose people whom they perceive as most vulnerable to attack or over whom they believe they can assert power. Sexual assault victims come from all walks of life."

If rape victims are, actually, as they say/claim, then they must have statistics to back it up. Just making that statement does NOT make it true.

So .....where are the statistics? And do the stats show that most rape victims are attractive young women?

Baron Max

Okay, so you want statistics on whether the majority of women who have been raped are young and attractive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so if such a thing were documented it would be based on that person's opinion, those stats would mean nothing, at least not to me.

Whatever sets the rapist off in his mind to do such a violent act doesn't take away from him being guilty of doing it- he is the one at fault for not controlling himself NOT the victim. I'm assuming you think that the victim is somehow contributing to being raped or you wouldn't keep bringing up how the victim is dressed or attractive and young. If that is not what you mean, then I apologize and would be curious as to why you do keep bringing that up.

Some people dream of having lots of money, but if a person cannot come by money honestly and in turn robs a bank, they are the one with the problem, not the banks.

Should we make every young attractive woman cover up from head to toe in order not to be a victim? IF such a thing were done...do you honestly think that rape would decline or better yet- cease?

If sex is not consensual, then it is rape. It doesn't matter if the woman is wearing a bikini at the beach or sweats. There are no excuses good enough to ever justify a rape.

I tried to find stats on the subject, but the phrasing would be very non-PC and also very subjective so I couldn't find it. I did find some articles on how the physical beauty of the victim effected the crime itself or the jury's decission, but that wasn't the question.

How many fat, ugly women wearing dowdy clothing are raped per year?


So temptation doesn't mean anything? If that's the case, then there should be the same number of fat, ugly women raped as are good-looking women wearing nice clothing, right? Do you have those statistics?

Rape also seems to be that a woman can have consensual sex, then lie about it to the police. I would also suggest that there's been many cases of consentual sex at parties where the woman LATER decides to bring charges of rape in order to protect herself from gossip and rumor.

But, still .....I'm now really curious; how many fat, ugly women are raped per year as compared to good-looking, attractive, well-dressed women?? Anyone know??

Baron Max


Baron. You are using this excuse again? Rape is rape. Are you attempting to excuse the rapist if the victim is young and pretty? Do you think someone who rapes a pretty young woman should face a lesser charge than someone who rapes an 80 year old woman or a 1 year old baby because only one can be understandable for you but the other two are just sick?

Young women are amongst the higher group of rape victims, but as for their looks or size, it is not factored in since beauty cannot be measured. Here are some links that might help you:

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html

http://www.rainn.org/docs/statistics/child_rape_victims92.pdf?PHPSESSID=652844f11b90e33 a37d1b8f1bfd3df80 - which gives statistics such as 1 in 4 rape victims in Delaware (for example) were under 10 years of age. Now would you consider a child under the age of 10 to be sexually attractive or provocative? One would hope not.

The fact that children as well as the elderly are raped should give you an idea that looks don't really matter in rape. Do you know why? Because rape is rape and rape is sex without consent. Do you think rape laws should factor in the victim's 'beauty' and 'looks'? Is there a set standard as to what is beautiful? For example, a rapist might find an 80 year old bed ridden woman a sexual turn on. And another might find a young nubile 17 year old a sexual turn on. And another might find a 5 year old a sexual turn on. So which one would fulfil the norm of beauty? Should their be a poll?

As someone has already pointed out, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So one cannot actually have a study of the figures as to how many "fat, ugly women" are raped per year because one person's idea of a beautiful woman would be their own and may not be the same with another. For example, your ideal woman might be 4 foot tall, boobs hanging down to her knees and toothless, and you might very well consider her beautiful. But she may be 'ugly' to other men.

How do we know that it is not just pretty young girls who are raped? Well I think the fact that rape victims range from all ages and size, from babies through to the very elderly and infirm, that it might be an indication that it is not just one group (pretty and young) who are rape victims. Wouldn't you agree?

Whatever sets the rapist off in his mind to do such a violent act doesn't take away from him being guilty of doing it- he is the one at fault for not controlling himself NOT the victim.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.

I'm assuming you think that the victim is somehow contributing to being raped or you wouldn't keep bringing up how the victim is dressed or attractive and young. If that is not what you mean, then I apologize and would be curious as to why you do keep bringing that up.

Well, it's somewhat similar to good ol' fashioned assualt and robbery. In most instances of assault and/or robbery, it occurs in a "bad" part of town ...or a part of town that's generally known as a dangerous place to be. And it's quite right of cops to ask the victim, "What the hell were you doin' in that part of town at that time of night?" See? The same goes for the rape victim. I think those are questions that should be asked, and should be answered. And as yet, I've not seen such studies or statistics.

There are no excuses good enough to ever justify a rape.

Well, see, you're wrong! The rapist definitely justifies doin' it or he wouldn't do it. Don't you agree?

So now we're left with .....why did he do it? How did he justify the raping? Was it a rape of opportunity where he just stumbles onto someone while burglarizing a house? Or was he attracted to some woman, then follow her to her home? I think those are important questions in order to help people learn what to do and what not to do. Because surely you don't think we can teach the vicious rapists that it's not a nice thing to do, do you?

Should we make every young attractive woman cover up from head to toe in order not to be a victim? IF such a thing were done...do you honestly think that rape would decline or better yet- cease?

Well, I don't know ....but we don't hear much about rape in places where women do, in fact, cover themselves from head to toe, do we? Don't you agree that rape seems to be more prevalent in nations that allow more freedoms for their women? ...the freedoms to wear skimpy clothing and strings for bathing suits?

It's funny how we seem to overlook this issue by trying to be so PC about it all ....and worse, acting like I'm condoning rape. I'm not.

But look at it this way; What would you say about a man who walked down the streets all the time with hundred dollar bills hanging out of his pockets? Would you say, "Geez, what a dumb-ass!" And if he got robbed, would you say that he was certainly somewhat to blame? And to make it worse, what if he got robbed while walking through the ghetto with hundred dollar bills stickin' out of his pockets? Was he just asking for it?????????

Some people dream of having lots of money, but if a person cannot come by money honestly and in turn robs a bank, they are the one with the problem, not the banks.

And what would you say if a bank start leaving the money right out in the open, covered only with a few bikini bottoms? Would you say that the bank was just asking to be robbed????? Hmmm?

Baron Max

Well, it's somewhat similar to good ol' fashioned assualt and robbery. In most instances of assault and/or robbery, it occurs in a "bad" part of town ...or a part of town that's generally known as a dangerous place to be. And it's quite right of cops to ask the victim, "What the hell were you doin' in that part of town at that time of night?" See? The same goes for the rape victim. I think those are questions that should be asked, and should be answered. And as yet, I've not seen such studies or statistics.


So you think the rape victim should be questioned as to why they might have been where they were when they were raped? Interesting.

# Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
# Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. [Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]
Link (http://www.earlham.edu/~aar/stats.html)

Would you suggesting asking these victims why they knew these people who raped them? How could they have been related to them or married to them? How exactly would you question a woman who was raped by her husband, say in her own bedroom for example.. 'why were you in bed with this man madam?'.. ?

Would you question a rape victim if she were an elderly woman in a nursing home for example?... 'why were you lying in bed in this hospital here madam?'.. 'what the hell were you doing lying here in bed in this hospital gown lady?'..

Rape and sexual assault can occur at any time, in many places, to anyone. According to a report based on FBI data, almost 70% of sexual assault reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or another individual.
Link (http://www.icasa.org/uploads/myths_and_facts_from_vawo.pdf)


Pray tell. What explanation do you think a police officer should demand from the rape victim who is raped in her own home by an acquaintance?.. 'what in the hell were you doing at home lady?'..

Well, see, you're wrong! The rapist definitely justifies doin' it or he wouldn't do it. Don't you agree?
Yes. Just like a pervert who rapes and then kills a child will attempt to justify it. Are they right?

So now we're left with .....why did he do it? How did he justify the raping? Was it a rape of opportunity where he just stumbles onto someone while burglarizing a house? Or was he attracted to some woman, then follow her to her home? I think those are important questions in order to help people learn what to do and what not to do. Because surely you don't think we can teach the vicious rapists that it's not a nice thing to do, do you?

No. That's what jail is for Baron.

Or are you saying that because the rapist can justify his behaviour in his own mind, we should just let him roam free?

Well, I don't know ....but we don't hear much about rape in places where women do, in fact, cover themselves from head to toe, do we?
Don't we?

In Saudi Arabia for instance, there are approximately 87 rapes reported per year.Link (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sa-saudi-arabia/cri-crime)

Why just 87? Well it could be that their culture is so restrictive that women will not report being raped due to the sense of shame that she may bring to herself or to her family. The same applies in Iran, where rapes go largely unreported because of the shame that the community associates with it. Also:

A rape victim would not be at risk for reporting a rape, but she would be socially "tainted". The Iranian authorities would provide assistance to prosecute the offender in a rape case involving a man who was not known to the victim, and where the evidence is unequivocal. A rape case involving an offender known to the victim would not receive the same support from the authorities because they would want to know why the woman was alone with the man. In this situation the burden of proof would be on the woman. As well, if the offender is a member of the security forces apparatus or clergy, the case likely would never be prosecuted. The source stated that statistics on rapes in Iran are almost non-existent.
Link (http://www.unhcr.org/home/RSDCOI/3ae6abc34c.html)

Gee.. I wonder why we don't hear about rapes in societies where women have to cover themselves from head to toe. Keep going Baron and you are only ensuring you sound more and more like Sheik Hilaly. Not sure who he is? Google. I know, maybe we should instill a form of Taliban rule where women cannot show any part of their body at all and be beaten and raped if they do... oh wait.. that would defeat the whole purpose of stopping rapes now wouldn't it?..:rolleyes:

Don't you agree that rape seems to be more prevalent in nations that allow more freedoms for their women? ...the freedoms to wear skimpy clothing and strings for bathing suits?
I think the above might have something to do with it. Or ir could be that women in nations that allow freedoms for their women also have a few more women willing to come forward to report it.

As for their skimpy clothing. Are you saying a rapist should be excused because the victim dared to wear a bikini on the beach? How about that old lady in the nursing home wearing the hospital gown? Or the 10 year old girl in her school uniform? I know! Force all women to wear the hijab and never leave home. That would stop all rapes. Oh wait.. I forgot about the fact that 70% of women raped are raped in their own homes or homes of acquaintances. So I guess that's out as well huh? :rolleyes:

It's funny how we seem to overlook this issue by trying to be so PC about it all ....and worse, acting like I'm condoning rape. I'm not.
And it's funny how you overlook the issues based on your minsconceived notions of society and your misogynistic views of women.

But look at it this way; What would you say about a man who walked down the streets all the time with hundred dollar bills hanging out of his pockets? Would you say, "Geez, what a dumb-ass!" And if he got robbed, would you say that he was certainly somewhat to blame? And to make it worse, what if he got robbed while walking through the ghetto with hundred dollar bills stickin' out of his pockets? Was he just asking for it?????????
So you don't think anyone should be free to walk down the street with money in their pocket? Interesting.

And what would you say if a bank start leaving the money right out in the open, covered only with a few bikini bottoms? Would you say that the bank was just asking to be robbed????? Hmmm?
So you think the robbers were stealing the money because of the bikini bottoms? Right.. Ya.. that makes sense. And banks only ever get robbed when they leave their money out don't they? Oh wait.. no they don't. Banks NEVER leave their money out. Banks get robbed and the money that is taken tends to be locked away in the drawers or in the vaults and the employees are forced to get it out.

So that means that no matter how a bank hides its money within its walls, it can be robbed at any time. Hmmmm.. Funny that..

It's funny how Bells often flaunts herself as an intellectual (often with the occasional 'slip' where she mentions her career in law in order to cunningly boost her own credibility. But heaven forbid if anyone else should mention it as a strike against her!), yet then demonstrates in her posts that she does not have the brainpower to reason her way out of a paper bag.

It's quite clear that Baron Max (as much as a dick he may be) does not condone rape. Quite the contrary, he has went to extraordinary lengths to stress repeatedly that rape is not acceptable. I don't know how much clearer he could have been. I guess you could claim that he is lying, although I've never known the Baron to lie. He doesn't need to. After all, being liked isn't his top priority!

What he is claiming is that certain actions, or behaviour exhibited by women, will put them at a greater risk of being raped. Do I agree with him? Not necessarily.
But to accuse him of condoning rape for merely conjecturing that certain mannerisms may make a women more prone to rape, is both presumptious and reeks of political correctness. It's analogous to accusing a police officer of condoning grand theft auto when he suggests that you lock your car doors. Do you lock your car doors, Bells? Or do you find the very notion that not locking your car doors puts you at a greater risk of having your car stolen 'offensive', and somehow appeases car jackers?

And Bells, stop bitching about certain posters mentioning your law career. The reason it is brought up so often is because:

1. You often use it to boost your own credibility in an argument. SpuriousMonkey loves to do something similiar, although I think he does it more for an ego boost. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

2. Quite simply, you behave one would expect a lawyer to. Due to your adversarial nature, you often misrepresent your opponent, and push long-winded arguments which on closer inspection, tend to be more rhetoric than rationale.

It's funny how Bells often flaunts herself as an intellectual (often with the occasional 'slip' where she mentions her career in law in order to cunningly boost her own credibility. But heaven forbid if anyone else should mention it as a strike against her!), yet then demonstrates in her posts that she does not have the brainpower to reason her way out of a paper bag.

It's quite clear that Baron Max (as much as a dick he may be) does not condone rape. Quite the contrary, he has went to extraordinary lengths to stress repeatedly that rape is not acceptable. I don't know how much clearer he could have been. I guess you could claim that he is lying, although I've never known the Baron to lie. He doesn't need to. After all, being liked isn't his top priority!

What he is claiming is that certain actions, or behaviour exhibited by women, will put them at a greater risk of being raped. Do I agree with him? Not necessarily.
But to accuse him of condoning rape for merely conjecturing that certain mannerisms may make a women more prone to rape, is both presumptious and reeks of political correctness. It's analogous to accusing a police officer of condoning grand theft auto when he suggests that you lock your car doors. Do you lock your car doors, Bells? Or do you find the very notion that not locking your car doors puts you at a greater risk of having your car stolen 'offensive', and somehow appeases car jackers?

And Bells, stop bitching about certain posters mentioning your law career. The reason it is brought up so often is because:

1. You often use it to boost your own credibility in an argument. SpuriousMonkey loves to do something similiar, although I think he does it more for an ego boost. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

2. Quite simply, you behave one would expect a lawyer to. Due to your adversarial nature, you often misrepresent your opponent, and push long-winded arguments which on closer inspection, tend to be more rhetoric than rationale.

Had you bothered to actually read the post, you would have realised that I was not accusing him of condoning rape, merely saying his view of women and victims in particular in rape cases was a tad warped. We both agree that there is no excuse for rape. But where I say there is absolutely no excuse, he adds the 'but' at the end. That is what we are arguing about.

Baron knows my stance on this issue as we have discussed it many times before and I am sure will again in the future. He knows the bone to pick with me to get me started and vice versa. It is a little dance we often engage in, in these little discussions. We also differ and agree on a lot of other issues. Does not mean we cannot discuss them. If you have a problem with my having this discussion with Baron, that is your problem and yours alone. In short, butt out.

Oh, and not once did I, or anyone else mention my career in this thread, with the exception of you of course. So what are you on about mountain? Why did you bring it up?

..., although I've never known the Baron to lie. He doesn't need to. After all, being liked isn't his top priority!

Huh? Ya' mean this forum ain't a popularity contest??? And I've been trying sooooo hard to win, too! Damn.

Due to your (Bell's) adversarial nature, you often misrepresent your opponent, and push long-winded arguments which on closer inspection, tend to be more rhetoric than rationale.

Yeah, and it makes it damned difficult to have a discussion with her about anything. Her posts are so fuckin' long that, by the time I've finished reading it all, I'm completely befuddled, confused and wondering who the hell she's talking to.

Perhaps staying home with the new baby is giving her too much time, and she's bored silly? So she comes here to entertain herself instead of curing sheep hides and making leather garments for her family? ...LOL!

Sorry, Bells, but when you actually read over my post and have anything legitimate to say, I won't bother responding to it.

Baron Max

I think what Baron Max and Bells are arguing about can be helped by analogy:


Let's imagine that a store-owner decides that the cash register is slowing down his business, so he gets rid of it. Instead of keeping his money in a locked drawer, he keeps it on the counter, and lets people make their own change.

Every night, he finds that there is money missing.
Is the shop owner to blame for the loss of his funds? Of course not. He didn't steal it.
Could the shop owner have done something to prevent some of this loss, obviously.
What mistakes did the shop owner make? He doesn't understand human psychology. People will cheat in indirect proportion to their chances of being caught. The less chance, the more cheating.


Now, lets look at some rape statistics before we lay the transparency of this analogy over the case of rape:

69% of rape victims are raped by someone they know.

68% of rapes happen between 6 pm and 6 am

45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs and 90% of campus rapes include alcohol.

How do these number help us? They tell us something about the psychology of the people committing rapes. Just like the store owner needed information about the psychology of cheating, women need to know about the psychology of rapists. They need to use this knowledge to protect themselves, just as the store owner should have used a cash register. Does this blame the victim? Of course not, it is how we EMPOWER the victim.

What should a woman do? Never trust any male, no matter how well they think they know them. The majority of rapes are date-rapes or family-rapes. Rapists violate a woman's sense of trust, which is why the psychological damage is so severe. Any male is capable of rape, so do not put yourself in a dangerous situation. Do not get alone with a male that you do not trust with your life unless you have friends to call for help. This is a sad, sad fact of how violent and aggressive horny men are. It is tragic that this is the reality of it, but avoiding this knowledge is getting girls hurt every year.

Don't drink around people that you do not trust with your life. Drinking leads to most rapes, and it is a way the victim can relinquish his/her power over the situation. It is sad that we can't get together with a bunch of strangers and get wasted, and trust them all... but such is reality. Don't drink at all if you can help it.


Feminists can't stand it when we give women advice like this. We are looking to help women and to prevent rapes. We want what is best for them. Feminists live in a fantasyland where they want women to be able to get drunk with strangers, take off their clothes, and expect the men to behave themselves. They won't. Ever. Stop getting women hurt because of your naive, utopian fantasies.

When I tell the shop owner to use a cash register, I'm not assigning blame to him for stealing his own money. It is obvious who is to blame. What I'm doing is warning him about the evils of society, and urging him to protect himself. I am doing a service with an understanding of reality as my guide. Feminists are doing harm, with an ideology as their guide.

And shame on them.

Well, it's somewhat similar to good ol' fashioned assualt and robbery. In most instances of assault and/or robbery, it occurs in a "bad" part of town ...or a part of town that's generally known as a dangerous place to be. And it's quite right of cops to ask the victim, "What the hell were you doin' in that part of town at that time of night?" See? The same goes for the rape victim. I think those are questions that should be asked, and should be answered. And as yet, I've not seen such studies or statistics

I see that you are stating to use common sense when going out. Don't stand in front of an oncoming semi, don't walk down a dark alley on the bad side of town because you're taking a risk of getting raped.

Do I think it's a crime to be cautious? No, I do think it can be wise. But, where do we draw the line really? I mean mountainshare suggested for all women to not trust any men period, unless they feel they can trust them with their lives. Does it really have to come down to this? How does one not go overboard and slip into a state of paranoia?

Well, see, you're wrong! The rapist definitely justifies doin' it or he wouldn't do it. Don't you agree?

Okay, I get your point. I should have said, in my opinion there isn't a justification good enough. You're right, the rapist, I'm sure, justifies it in whatever bizarre twisted way.

So now we're left with .....why did he do it? How did he justify the raping? Was it a rape of opportunity where he just stumbles onto someone while burglarizing a house? Or was he attracted to some woman, then follow her to her home? I think those are important questions in order to help people learn what to do and what not to do. Because surely you don't think we can teach the vicious rapists that it's not a nice thing to do, do you?

There could be a MILLION reasons as to why and all varying from rapist to rapist. Again, where do we draw the line to where a woman doesn't become paranoid if she wears a red dress or should she wear her hair short opposed to long, etc... Somehow, I can't help feel that rape goes beyond simple reasons of "I was attracted to her Mr. Officer, so I just had to do her".

Well, I don't know ....but we don't hear much about rape in places where women do, in fact, cover themselves from head to toe, do we? Don't you agree that rape seems to be more prevalent in nations that allow more freedoms for their women? ...the freedoms to wear skimpy clothing and strings for bathing suits?

I can't add anymore to Bells answer... I think she provided some great stats that were overlooked. I will say this though, instead of putting a woman into a box and hide her away like she is the one that is the criminal, I would rather them enforce mandatory castration for repeat sexual offenders period.

Bells provided stats which I do think are important to look at, yet they seem to have been tossed to the side. That being, "Approximately 68% of rape victims knew their assailant". Also, "almost 70% of sexual assault reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or another individual."

Doesn't seem to me that the majority of rapes are just randomly choosing some stranger off the street because their victim is attractive. Seems to me they know their victim.

But, Max...do you feel in the case of say a 9 year old child, that she somehow contributed to the rape done to her by her neighbor? Was it because her hair was blonde instead of mousey brown? Was it because she shouldn't have worn shorts on a scorching hot summer day? How do you tell a child who did nothing in her mind- that there were things she did to in fact contribute to that rape- which made the rapist feel in his mind she was just 'asking for it'? As if the rapists reasons for violating her some how overshadow her being a true victim. I mean do we tell a child that had they not of worn this or laughed this way, that they would have never been violated? And how do we know that if the rapist did indeed state, "well the girl was just so hot looking and young I had to do it" isn't just a pitiful excuse for having done so? I mean, well, to me it is a pitiful excuse. Not every guy lacks self control when they see an attractive woman.

Educate a person and teach them how to get away...but to put someone in a box and say don't breathe don't move, because you just might get hurt...puts that person in a state of fear that can be horrible to live with, surely there must be a better way.

But, where do we draw the line really? I mean mountainshare suggested for all women to not trust any men period, unless they feel they can trust them with their lives. Does it really have to come down to this? How does one not go overboard and slip into a state of paranoia?

Reality often sneaks into the idealistic dreams of "what it should be", huh? And if you think about it only a little bit from another perspective, don't you think that the rapists of the world would have a "what should be" of their own? ...what do you think it would be??? Idealism ins't only for one side, ya' know?

But also, please don't use the term "paranoia" when it's really just common sense and a little caution. When you decide not to drive your new Jaguar through the ghetto on a dark night, that's not "paranoia", it's rational, realistic caution. Using the term "paranoia" is nothing but sensationalism.

I will say this though, instead of putting a woman into a box and hide her away like she is the one that is the criminal,...

More overboard sensationalist rhetoric?

Doesn't seem to me that the majority of rapes are just randomly choosing some stranger off the street because their victim is attractive. Seems to me they know their victim.

Don't change nothin'. Again, how many fat, ugly women are raped ...whether they know their rapist or not? See? Is that blaming the victim? No, of course not. But what it does it puts things into a different perspective.

And I've heard many peope make claims that the sex and the parade of beautiful women on tv and in movies, magazines, etc is sparking the sexual urges of men everywhere ...including, of course, those who would resort to rape. Is it fair to say such things as a defense for rape? Hell, no! But it does put things into a different perspective.

But, Max...do you feel in the case of say a 9 year old child, that she somehow contributed to the rape done to her by her neighbor?

If you hadn't been relatively rational in the other parts of your post, I'd be damned pissed off by that insinuation!!! But I'll let it pass this time.

Resorting to the sensationalism of child rape when discussing this topic is doing nothing but sliding down a slippery slope until you finally settle on something that "draws the line". It's a stupid, foolish way to discuss a topic, and in this case, it only raises the level of anger and hatred and irrationality.

...you just might get hurt...puts that person in a state of fear that can be horrible to live with, surely there must be a better way.

Seeking a fantasy world of idealism, are you? Once again you've resorted to a sensationalist phrase in order to try to make a point ...because you can't make the damned point any other way!

Until we, as humans, can exist in a perfect Utopia of love and kindness and happiness, etc, we have to learn to live with the realities that are presented to us. To say that the realities "aren't very nice" is to hide your head in the sand hoping it'll all go away. Reality is here to stay ...accept it, and learn to live within it's confines UNTIL you can change it into the Utopia of your dreams.

Caution and using common sense is NOT paranoia. If you're like millions of people, you use caution and common sense every day of your life ...to call it paranoia is foolish and sensationalist bullshit.

The very freedoms that we all fight to maintain in our lives is also the very same freedoms that allow for the rapists to rape their victims! Ditto for the criminals to do us harm - we've given them that freedom and we fight to keep it for them on a daily basis. And yet we complain when they use it?!

Baron Max

Reality often sneaks into the idealistic dreams of "what it should be", huh? And if you think about it only a little bit from another perspective, don't you think that the rapists of the world would have a "what should be" of their own? ...what do you think it would be??? Idealism ins't only for one side, ya' know?

I'm not trying to be all rose colored glasses here and not think that bad things can't happen and that we can't be cautious or do things to help prevent them to the best of our ability. What I was trying to point out, though, was how mountainshare feels all women should stay away from all men, unless they know for fact that they can depend on them with their very lives. To me, and perhaps I haven't given it enough thought, but that seems a tad extreme. What if a woman is say a real estate agent and must meet a man to show a home? What if a man was raped by another man and he was a real estate agent and had to show a house to another man? What if this man wears something that might provoke some other rapist? WHERE is the line drawn at? If you don't think that type of thinking (creating several scenarios of what if's) can't work into a state of paranoia, then guess again.

But also, please don't use the term "paranoia" when it's really just common sense and a little caution. When you decide not to drive your new Jaguar through the ghetto on a dark night, that's not "paranoia", it's rational, realistic caution. Using the term "paranoia" is nothing but sensationalism

Please know that I'm not using the term paranoia in the manner of say, locking the door of a car before you go in the store. What I mean is how cautious must one be before it comes to a state of paranoia. How many blue cars must they watch before they realize it's not the rapist that had them, should they avoid all men totally in order to stay safe, should they run the opposite direction when they see any man walking in the same direction of them...etc etc etc
I'm not talking about the common ordinary things one would normally do in order to be careful.

If you hadn't been relatively rational in the other parts of your post, I'd be damned pissed off by that insinuation!!! But I'll let it pass this time.

Resorting to the sensationalism of child rape when discussing this topic is doing nothing but sliding down a slippery slope until you finally settle on something that "draws the line". It's a stupid, foolish way to discuss a topic, and in this case, it only raises the level of anger and hatred and irrationality

Max, you might not think the way of a rapist, obviously, but there are pedophiles out there that would think on those lines. Just as their thinking is off the mark in regard to a child, so is it in regard to a woman. Rape is rape...be it man, woman, or child. Each is just as awful as the other. I'm really curious though, had I of said the same thing regarding a woman instead of a child if your anger would have been the same level? Are there different rules, in your thinking, between the two? Please know I'm not trying to stir shit, I'm truly trying to understand where you are coming from.

Until we, as humans, can exist in a perfect Utopia of love and kindness and happiness, etc, we have to learn to live with the realities that are presented to us. To say that the realities "aren't very nice" is to hide your head in the sand hoping it'll all go away. Reality is here to stay ...accept it, and learn to live within it's confines UNTIL you can change it into the Utopia of your dreams

You know what? I agree with you on this. I'm NOT saying to hide our head in the sand and become an ostrich and pretend bad stuff doesn't happen. I'm not using caution and paranoia as the same. I'm all for people learning how to defend themselves were something to happen to them. Is that being paranoid? No, that's being prepared.

I meant more in terms of being too scared to live period. If we become that way one could easily become a recluse. I don't know about you, but for me that is no way to live.

Max, I feel that there could be a 100 million different things that various rapists could say that factor into selecting their victim. One may say long hair because it's easy to grab while the other says short hair is what does it for him. One could say short skirt the other could say a flannel shirt, and on and on. There are guys out there that like heavy set women..To try to cover all of those seems like an impossibility to me. So I'm asking you, what would your advice be, since everyone has different tastes when it comes to likes.

You STILL haven't answered my question, Bells. Do you lock your car doors?

There is absolutely no excuse for rape, there is absolutely no excuse for the Iraq war, there is absolutely no excuse for the evil in the world, we can go on and on...or we can talk about more interesting things. A rapist who sets out in the dead of the night is more likely to go for a woman wearing more accessible outfit, just like wild carnivorous animals picking out the weaker prey of the lot. Bells needs to find something to say or I am loosing interest on this thread. Intead of going on about morality all day, we can do something more realistic, we can at least address the cause and effect. I guarantee you, if you take out all the totesterones in men's testacles, rape accidents will drop to nothing.

What if the woman wearing the more accessible outfit is the size of China the wrestling chick? Wearing a provocative outfit doesn't necessarily equal physical weakness. Though there are of course cause and effects in rape. A woman walking home alone by herself from a bar is more likely to get raped then the girl who leaves with a group, no matter what they are wearing. There are situations that people put themselves in that would make them more of a target for rapists, but that does not excuse it. I found this website interesting.

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1981/3/81.03.06.x.html#c

The pill does not work by erasing. It simply reduces the ability think clearly and recall strong emotions. This dulls the memory. High price to pay if you ask me. First you get violated, than your mind does. Now you are violated and dull.

The pill does not work by erasing. It simply reduces the ability think clearly and recall strong emotions. This dulls the memory. High price to pay if you ask me. First you get violated, than your mind does. Now you are violated and dull.

It would be a hard choice to make. Some people have experienced true horrors that most people cannot even fathom. Sometimes being dulled by a pill might be the lesser of two evils.

You STILL haven't answered my question, Bells. Do you lock your car doors?
Yes I lock my car door. I also lock the doors on my home.

But what does that have to do with rape? I lock my car doors because the insurance company would probably be a bit cranky if it were stolen and I said I never locked them.

A rape is not the same as the theft of a car. How you are even attempting to use the analogy seems silly to me. I could go out with a bunch of friends, dressed in discreet clothing and be completely covered. I could not drink and not leave by myself. I could take all the precautions in the world and still be raped, by someone I know and love or by a complete stranger entering my home. People who say that women could prevent their rape by dressing better (not in a provocative way to attract unwanted attention), not getting drunk or using drugs, by being careful, etc, ignore the fact that they are more likely to be raped by someone known to them than by a stranger. So how would one protect one's self from someone known and loved and trusted? How would a wife protect herself from her husband who decides that her saying 'no' one night in bed is just not on and rapes her?

A rapist does not rape a woman because she's wearing a bikini for example. Telling women to not be provocative is impossible. Do you know why? What you find attractive and provocative won't be the same as what someone else will find attractive and provocative. Women are raped all over the world, whether they are covered up or not. So my locking my car door as a preventative measure is not a good analogy. I could take all the precautions in the world, and still be raped by a stranger or by a loved one. Just like my locking my car would not prevent it from being stolen, as I have found out in the past. I can't even say that the only precaution I could take was to never leave home because women are also raped in their own homes by either people they know or strangers who break in and rape them. Hospitals aren't safe, neither are nursing homes. So if anyone can come up with a device who preventative measure to protect women from being raped, they would end up being rich to the point of being ridiculous. Do you know why? Because nothing exists on this planet that can protect or prevent a woman from being raped or at risk of being raped.

Maybe instead of focussing on how women dress, the focus should focus more on the rapist and ensuring the penalty fits the crime.

It would be a hard choice to make. Some people have experienced true horrors that most people cannot even fathom. Sometimes being dulled by a pill might be the lesser of two evils.

All I am saying is that this pill is not the answer. But I do agree that we need to learn more about this so that we reduce this bight on man's behaver and give victims the ability to move on.

"Fighting crime" is just the punishment of it. The saner people that only need to be told will obey the law. The lesser ones will not and no amount of laws will makeup for the fact that they mean to keep doing it.

The only out is to understand what is going on and remedy that. Punishment has been tried and found wanting. We have an urgency to find a new way to stop this, one that works.

What's going on? Women are being raped because they are provoking the rapist? What's up with beaches? Shouldn't that be where most rapes happen?

What's going on? Women are being raped because they are provoking the rapist? What's up with beaches? Shouldn't that be where most rapes happen?

Apparently, since people are dressed provocatively.:rolleyes: Therefore making them weak and easy pickins'.

All I am saying is that this pill is not the answer. But I do agree that we need to learn more about this so that we reduce this bight on man's behaver and give victims the ability to move on.

Yes. Rape is terrible. I have friends who have been raped and still suffer from the trauma of it. It is not about situation or provocation. It is about bad people who feel the need to dominate others. Half the time rape isn't even sexual. It is about control.

I'm starting to feel that misrepresentation of the words in this thread is going to become an issue(if not already) so I'm going to try my best to write this as objectively as possible.
The rapist is solely responsible and the blame is completely with them, I think nobody denies that. Women(and men) should be free to walk the streets in whatever they want, again everyone agrees. Sadly they are not, and as bells said most rapes occur in 'safe' places such as the home and by trusted people, I don't think anyone is trying to say they don't and you are fully correct there is little way to protect yourself in that situation.
The general consensus is that of the rapes happening on the street, the victim will be chosen (as this is the situation of a predator hunting prey) as they are perceived as in a weak position; ie, it's dark/they're travelling alone; and because the situation is in the predators favour; ie, easily accessable clothing, no people around to raise alarm.
I think all that is being said is that there are things that can be done to help reduce the chances of being a target in some situations. Hence the locking of the car analogy, it reduces your chances of being a target of car theft, although it does not stop it, even if it's in the garage.
Hopefully I explained that adequately and we can all agree on at least the majority of that.
I agree with bells that the real focus should be on finding a fitting punishment for the rapists.

Yes I lock my car door. I also lock the doors on my home.

But what does that have to do with rape? I lock my car doors because the insurance company would probably be a bit cranky if it were stolen and I said I never locked them.

A rape is not the same as the theft of a car. How you are even attempting to use the analogy seems silly to me. I could go out with a bunch of friends, dressed in discreet clothing and be completely covered. I could not drink and not leave by myself. I could take all the precautions in the world and still be raped, by someone I know and love or by a complete stranger entering my home. People who say that women could prevent their rape by dressing better (not in a provocative way to attract unwanted attention), not getting drunk or using drugs, by being careful, etc, ignore the fact that they are more likely to be raped by someone known to them than by a stranger. So how would one protect one's self from someone known and loved and trusted? How would a wife protect herself from her husband who decides that her saying 'no' one night in bed is just not on and rapes her?

A rapist does not rape a woman because she's wearing a bikini for example. Telling women to not be provocative is impossible. Do you know why? What you find attractive and provocative won't be the same as what someone else will find attractive and provocative. Women are raped all over the world, whether they are covered up or not. So my locking my car door as a preventative measure is not a good analogy. I could take all the precautions in the world, and still be raped by a stranger or by a loved one. Just like my locking my car would not prevent it from being stolen, as I have found out in the past. I can't even say that the only precaution I could take was to never leave home because women are also raped in their own homes by either people they know or strangers who break in and rape them. Hospitals aren't safe, neither are nursing homes. So if anyone can come up with a device who preventative measure to protect women from being raped, they would end up being rich to the point of being ridiculous. Do you know why? Because nothing exists on this planet that can protect or prevent a woman from being raped or at risk of being raped.

Maybe instead of focussing on how women dress, the focus should focus more on the rapist and ensuring the penalty fits the crime.

You don't understand what we are talking about. Nobody is saying all rape is due to the fact that women sometimes wear provocative outfits, but that some rape accidents were due to women wearing provocative outfits. Believe it or not, in some countries, and in some cultures out there, some men actually think a woman who wears barely there dresses is asking to be raped. Judging from your posts Bells, It reinforces my suspicion that not all women understand men and how some men think, and not all women want to agree that men are different, just like all women are different. Some men go through deformitive childhoods, sexually abused childhoods, bad parenting, and who knows the rest. Some men however have always had their hands in the cookie jar, by having everything including a first class education, a good solid childhood, e.t.c. Morality, what you wish so much from men, is something everybody is denied from time to time, which by the way is a function of socio-economic well being. How many people in third world states are moral? Third world states have the highest number of crime and corruption. Rape is an event usually caused by a series of things, sometimes the man may just want to get back at a woman, or he may be sexually deprived, but we know for sure it is a result of a plethora of socio-psychological phases. As a lawyer, you are disappointing; you mean to tell us here that your only offense and persecution for rapists is their morality? You talk about fairness, that’s hardly fair, at least in terms of a seriously logical referendum. Which brings me to why women wear barely there dresses in the first place. I am not opposing wearing skimpy outfits, I like it. But when we ask women why they wear skimpy outfits, they usually say “it is to impress other women”, some say “to impress other men”, but we know that it is usually “to impress”. “To impress” is synonym for to “to emphasize”, “to stir”, and to "imprint”, look it up in the thesaurus. “To emphasize" is synonym for “advertise”. Many incidences are like going fishing and catching a fish too big to fry. You have to ask yourself, who exactly is fishing for whom?

I'm starting to feel that misrepresentation of the words in this thread is going to become an issue(if not already) so I'm going to try my best to write this as objectively as possible.
The rapist is solely responsible and the blame is completely with them, I think nobody denies that.
That’s sometimes arguable. It’s like solely blaming the illegal drug dealers

Women (and men) should be free to walk the streets in whatever they want, again everyone agrees.
Sure, lets all walk naked then. Why not?

Sadly they are not, and as bells said most rapes occur in 'safe' places such as the home and by trusted people, I don't think anyone is trying to say they don't and you are fully correct there is little way to protect yourself in that situation.
What about the other types of rape

The general consensus is that of the rapes happening on the street, the victim will be chosen (as this is the situation of a predator hunting prey) as they are perceived as in a weak position; ie, it's dark/they're travelling alone; and because the situation is in the predators favour; ie, easily accessable clothing, no people around to raise alarm.
I think all that is being said is that there are things that can be done to help reduce the chances of being a target in some situations. Hence the locking of the car analogy, it reduces your chances of being a target of car theft, although it does not stop it, even if it's in the garage.
Hopefully I explained that adequately and we can all agree on at least the majority of that.
I agree with bells that the real focus should be on finding a fitting punishment for the rapists.
Well, I think you are generally in the right direction. Rape has been around for thousands of years, sometimes it happens with violence and forcefulness; sometimes it’s a little subtle. I know a girl that was technically raped by one of her guy friends. She didn’t see it as rape, though she had a boyfriend at the time, and she really didn’t want a “quickie” that ill-fated afternoon. My advice and position is to always remain safe, know what you are doing, and don’t bother anybody or make them mad at you for any reason. Because at the end of the day, the rapist will get a few years of punishment, but the event will never go away from the victim's mind.

You're just actually making excuses for a conscious decision but many people don't want to admit it because narcissists believe whatever arouses them belongs to them. Being aroused is not an excuse to take advantage of others if it was a man with bulging muscles, people both men and women in shorts, innocent looking people, teenagers, or children, and also usually smaller than yourself people. Anyone can be aroused but to make the leap to rape, sodomize, or molest is not just arousal but a lack of respect for the rights of others. You just can't blame others for rape because if you're horny you need to jack off, pay for a hooker, or find yourself a consenting one-night stand. There is just no real legitimate excuse for it no matter what because the majority of people who are sexually abused was not because of clothing but because of a power and size disparity. People shouldn't have to hide who they are because others don't want to respect others but want others to respect them. If a rapist was attracted to you because you had a certain "look" that he finds provocative rather than what you wear, he will rape you. We see shiny objects in the store but that does not give you the right to take whatever you want or captures your particular lust. A rapist will use any 'outward' excuse to others and even to him/herself to justify or distract from the real reason, narcissism and withholding of empathy toward their victim. It doesn't matter if you are half-clothed or fully covered, they will wonder what you look like naked and will proceed from there, the clothing or not is just an initital starting point. What is really sick is when a young person is just starting to develop, curves can't help but be exposed. Even this a rapist will demonize the other for their lascivious perversion. Perverts tend to like innocent or naive people because they are easy targets. They will no longer be innocent after but the damage will remain.

But i agree it is just as stupid for people to walk around half-naked in a world of people who will use that as an excuse for their own satisfaction. Unfortunately, young people especially are targeted because they buy into looking beautiful for themselves, others, and to attract a siginificant other etc, and this is twisted by rapists as an invitation to get whatever they please. It's always a one-way street with them, if they are turned on, it's your fault and obligation to fulfill them no matter what.

I'm starting to feel that misrepresentation of the words in this thread is going to become an issue(if not already) so I'm going to try my best to write this as objectively as possible.
The rapist is solely responsible and the blame is completely with them, I think nobody denies that. Women(and men) should be free to walk the streets in whatever they want, again everyone agrees. Sadly they are not, and as bells said most rapes occur in 'safe' places such as the home and by trusted people, I don't think anyone is trying to say they don't and you are fully correct there is little way to protect yourself in that situation.
The general consensus is that of the rapes happening on the street, the victim will be chosen (as this is the situation of a predator hunting prey) as they are perceived as in a weak position; ie, it's dark/they're travelling alone; and because the situation is in the predators favour; ie, easily accessable clothing, no people around to raise alarm.
I think all that is being said is that there are things that can be done to help reduce the chances of being a target in some situations. Hence the locking of the car analogy, it reduces your chances of being a target of car theft, although it does not stop it, even if it's in the garage.
Hopefully I explained that adequately and we can all agree on at least the majority of that.
I agree with bells that the real focus should be on finding a fitting punishment for the rapists.

I totally agree with you here. I do think there are common sense things we can do, like you said, trying to avoid walking down a dark alley alone.

Bells brought up, and I agree with her, there is way too much emphasis on how a person is dressed or looks instead of where the focus belongs, with the rapist. I believe if the penalty of rape were more severe, that it might help to lessen this problem more so than how a person is dressed.

I do think that there are additional things that can be done to help lower the risk, such as educating people how to get away and how to defend themselves. I do think taking a self defense class would help to empower a person if they were attacked.

You don't understand what we are talking about. Nobody is saying all rape is due to the fact that women sometimes wear provocative outfits, but that some rape accidents were due to women wearing provocative outfits.

Uh...what??? Rape is NOT an accident. The certain part of a male anatomy doesn't accidentally fall into the private part of a woman. If a man attacks a woman due to what she wears, it is his self control that is the problem and NOT the outfit. The devil didn't make anyone do anything. The responsibility of that attack is with the rapist, period! Outrageous comments like this does nothing but coddle the rapist, "oh, poor little guy, he just couldn't help it. It was that woman's fault because she was wearing just not a dress, but a red dress. His urges just couldn't be helped." Bullshit! I got news for you, the mans dick isn't going to fall off if he doesn't have sex. Are you telling me that he can't walk away, take a cold shower, talk to a therapist instead of raping another individual?

Originaly by heart
If a man attacks a woman due to what she wears, it is his self control that is the problem and NOT the outfit It is both

If a child or teenager is molested by a pedophile and it is admitted by the perpetrator that the innocent giddy laughter and the curves of the teenager were one of the arousal factors, should they stop laughing, smiling, and wearing tents and locking themselves indoors?? while perpetrators walk around free?

What you are missing is this fact: The only reason rapists use the 'clothes' excuse is because their are people in society who will buy it. If they knew they couldn't get sympathy for it, they wouldn't even cite it to get off the hook. Rapists rape because they are horny and don't give a shit about other's rights, PERIOD. Clothes are an excuse. Chatha, you citing clothing as a justified reason just reveals the fact you actually condone rape based on arousal. Rapists find many friends in society who support them inadvertently, you are one of them and their are many.

iam
You just can't blame others for rape because if you're horny you need to jack off, pay for a hooker, or find yourself a consenting one-night stand. There is just no real legitimate excuse for it no matter what because the majority of people who are sexually abused was not because of clothing but because of a power and size disparity To understand rape, you have to understand the phych of a rapist. Rapists don't think like you and me, they are infact sociopaths, and the last thing you need from a sociopath is to encourage them. These people are similar to kleptomaniacs, nymphomaniacs, hedonists, pedophiles, and down right malicious people. They have insignificant regard for morality or consequences. Sure, they can mastubate or get a hooker, but we are talking about borderline sociopaths, people who's thrill is a lot different from ours. They see masturbation as a waste of time, a far cry from the real things. Sending manic rapists to prison is not even the proper way to correct them. Sometimes you can correct a problem, while not solving the same problem. Some of these people need care, attention, education, and guidance.

If a child or teenager is molested by a pedophile and it is admitted by the perpetrator that the innocent giddy laughter and the curves of the teenager were one of the arousal factors, should they stop laughing, smiling,