View Full Version : After Lebanon


S.A.M.
09-20-06, 06:58 AM
"Jewish Voice For Peace" In-Depth: After Lebanon

The war on Lebanon seems to be over, at least for the time being. But the effects of that war will be felt for a long time. In stark contrast to the Israeli actions in Gaza and the West Bank, the Lebanon War, as we shall see below, was much more about American designs than Israeli ones.

It looks very much like we are at the beginning of a long period of renewed and intensified conflict in the Middle East. It is important to understand how these events came about, and to at least try to understand the motivations of the players involved. Jewish Voice for Peace brings you this extensive in-depth analysis.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_728.shtml

Note: these are just the main highlights of the article

After an occupation that lasted 18 years and cost hundreds of lives, far more Lebanese than Israeli but significant for both sides, Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000.

The United Nations certified a full Israeli withdrawal, but Israel maintained control of the disputed Sheba'a Farms area. Interestingly, while Lebanon claims this area as its own, Israel's claim is that it is actually occupying Syrian territory. No one claims the area legitimately belongs to Israel, not even Israel. Israel also reneged on an agreement to hand over maps of many tens of thousands of mines they laid during the years of occupation.

Hezbollah also has made claims of Israel holding Lebanese prisoners. These combined with the factors listed above to cause cross-border skirmishes and regularly occurring attacks in the Sheba’a Farms region over the past six years.

These grew more intense in May, after a car bomb killed a leader of Islamic Jihad in Lebanon. Israel is generally believed to have been behind this act, and the man arrested for it claimed to have been working for the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad. An exchange of fire followed soon after, greatly raising tensions between Hezbollah and Israel leading up to the July 12 Hezbollah attack.

The Hezbollah attack precipitated a major escalation in the already dangerous situation in the Middle East. It gave Israel the excuse it needed to launch a major attack on Lebanon. It has to be unequivocally stated that, having said that Hezbollah violated international law, Israel’s immediate targeting of civilian infrastructure and use of disproportionate and overwhelming force is a major war crime. Israel completely decimated much of Lebanon's infrastructure, internally displaced some 1,000,000 Lebanese and the death toll was well over 1,000, the vast majority of them civilians.

UN Security Council Resolution 1701 settled a cease-fire between Israel and Hezbollah. The resolution calls for international aid for Lebanon, and it is also significant that the United States has made it clear that Israel must foot the bill for this war themselves. Clearly, the US is dissatisfied with Israel’s performance.

Hezbollah has stated that, while it would remain ideologically opposed to Israel’s existence, it would not oppose a solution accepted by the Palestinians, even if that solution meant Israel’s continued existence and even Israel’s continued control over at least part of Jerusalem.

Hezbollah’s actions in their conflict with Israel, including the 2006 confrontation, have been confined to defending what they see as Lebanese interests. While they certainly support the Palestinian cause, this has mostly taken the form of moral and rhetorical support. They do not have the means to support Palestinian militant groups significantly with weapons or funding. The best they have been able to do has possibly been to help facilitate the delivery of weapons to Palestinian groups. Hezbollah’s own attacks on Israel have been confined to military targets for years. They have long since abandoned attacks on anything other than Israeli targets, and have for years, before 2006, limited their attacks on Israelis either to military targets or to response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians.


Israel:

This war was the biggest military failure in Israel’s history. Although in truth, there was never any real attempt to retrieve the two soldiers taken by Hezbollah, it is certainly not lost on the Israeli public that those two soldiers remain in Hezbollah’s hands. Israel’s stated goals of first destroying Hezbollah and later damaging them or driving them from Southern Lebanon all failed.

To the extent that this war was an Israeli one, it was largely the creation of Dan Halutz, the Chief of Staff. As we shall see below, the United States played a very prominent role. But Halutz was one of numerous Israeli military people who were deeply opposed to the 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon and have been preparing for a renewed assault on Southern Lebanon ever since. Plans for a re-invasion of Lebanon had been in development since the withdrawal.

In the wake of the Lebanon failure, Israel is confronting new circumstances. Iranian influence throughout the region is growing. This constitutes a much greater threat to other Arab regimes, especially some of the major oil producers, than to Israel, but it is cause for concern for Israel as well.

Arab moderates are facing greatly increased pressure, but they have also renewed their call for peace with Israel based on the 2002 initiative approved by the Arab League. That initiative calls for full peace and recognition of Israel and the establishment of fully normal relations with her, in exchange for a full Israeli withdrawal from all of the territories it captured in 1967 and a “just resolution” of the Palestinian refugee problem.

Israel essentially ignored the 2002 initiative, to its own detriment. However, as the wounds of the Lebanon War begin to heal, Israel may realize that negotiations based on that initiative, a far better basis than the absurd “roadmap” advocated by the Bush Administration, are very much in their best interests. Short of that, it may finally dawn on the Israeli and American leadership that the best way to curb Iranian influence, particularly in Lebanon is to reach a peace agreement with Syria, based on a return of the Golan Heights. This would take Syria, a country already uneasy in its alliance with Iran and Hezbollah, out of the equation and would likely leave Hezbollah as an independent actor, still nationalist and representative of the Shi’a of Lebanon, but no longer able to call on Iran for arms to help them mount independent offensives.

Hezbollah:

Hezbollah’s own position in Lebanon has been a bit more tenuous since the UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for the disbanding of all militias in Lebanon.

There are also outstanding issues between Israel and Lebanon on which there has been no motion in six years, and which were surely a factor in Hezbollah’s decision to launch their attack. One is that Israel had promised, upon its withdrawal in 2000, to hand over maps to Lebanon of mines they had laid during the occupation. This never happened, and periodically, Lebanese civilians are injured or killed by Israeli mines left over form the occupation. This issue remains unresolved after the war, although Israel did at least provide detailed maps of areas where they had launched cluster bombs during the war so that effective clean-up measures could be taken.

Israel also holds Lebanese prisoners. Although some are guilty of heinous crimes against Israeli civilians (most notably, Samir al-Kuntar who took refuge in an Israeli home after a guerilla operation and killed a father and his four-year old daughter), Lebanon contends their capture and detainment were illegal, and they have an arguable case.

Finally, Israel continues to occupy the Sheba’a Farms area, which Israel claims is captured Syrian territory and which Syria and Lebanon claim is Lebanese territory.

Iran

Iran’s role in all of this is not extremely clear, but we can be certain that they are somehow involved. With Iran under increasing US pressure over its nuclear program and knowing that the US and Israel would like nothing more than regime change in the Islamic Republic, Iran has every reason to want to act against the US and its ally, Israel.

Syria

Syria is largely caught in the middle now. They are outside the world of Arab states friendly to the US. They are the only Arab country that has offered anything like significant support to Palestinian militant groups, although even that support is often vastly overstated. Their alliance with Iran and Hezbollah is not entirely comfortable for them, as the Syrian regime is not Shi’ite, and Syria’s interests and Iran’s are not always the same. Yet they have also tried to mend their relations with the West, although not with Israel, reconciliation with whom will remain impossible as long as Israel holds the Golan Heights.

United States

No party could have been done as much to change the entire scenario of this past summer as the US. The escalation in Gaza is directly attributable to the Bush Administration’s decision to abandon the entire Israel-Palestine issue with the lone exception being efforts to undermine the legitimately elected Hamas government.

The Lebanon War, in contrast to the Israeli attacks on Gaza, was largely about US interests. This is not to suggest that Israel was an unwilling participant, or that there was not support for it among the Israeli leadership even before the taking of the two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah. However, when the attack was actually carried out, it was intended to serve American more than Israeli interests.

In the early days of the war, the Lebanese President, Fouad Siniora, called for a cease-fire. Ehud Olmert responded by discussing the sort of terms Israel would require. The US (both George Bush and Condi Rice) immediately rejected any kind of cease-fire. When the time came, it was the US who decided when the war should end, even though the terms of that ending were extremely unfavorable to Israel.

There is also the following, from another source: "Amid the political and diplomatic fallout from Israel's faltering invasion of Lebanon, some Israeli officials are privately blaming President George W. Bush for egging Prime Minister Ehud Olmert into the ill-conceived military adventure against the Hezbollah militia in south Lebanon… As part of Bush's determination to create a "new Middle East" - one that is more amenable to U.S. policies and desires - Bush even urged Israel to attack Syria, but the Olmert government refused to go that far, according to Israeli sources." The Jerusalem Post also referenced the American urging and Israeli refusal to attack Syria.

There is another point that none of these scholars has touched on, and that is the initial condemnation of Hezbollah by numerous Arab states, whose only real commonality was that they were US clients. This was an unprecedented event. Why did they choose this incident? The only plausible answer is that it was part of a US program. Any other answer begs the same question of why this Hezbollah attack was so different from so many other attacks on Israel, many of which were at least as apparently "unprovoked". Moreover, this was an attack on a military target. Such an unprecedented call would have made at least a little more sense in response to an attack on civilians.

As always, it is the US that has the most power to change things.

Baron Max
09-20-06, 07:38 AM
Little or nothing will change, Sam ....just wait a few months, years, and all will be almost the same bullshit, just different slants and biases.

Baron Max

Nikelodeon
09-20-06, 07:44 AM
Little or nothing will change, Sam ....
Until the oil runs out.....

S.A.M.
09-20-06, 07:44 AM
I'm impressed Baron, both at your speed reading (previous post 3 minutes before this one) and your intense acuity in reaching a judgement about the circumstances presented in the artcle. :D

Baron Max
09-20-06, 08:05 AM
Thank you, Sam, I can read pretty rapidly. As to judging things, I ain't so good at ....that's why I seldom make any actual statements ...but I do question lots of things that I read or hear.

Baron Max

(Q)
09-20-06, 08:09 PM
United States

No party could have been done as much to change the entire scenario of this past summer as the US.

Really? What exactly are the qualifiers for this extraordinary claim, extraordinary evidence, perhaps?

The Lebanon War, in contrast to the Israeli attacks on Gaza, was largely about US interests... it was intended to serve American more than Israeli interests.

We're left wondering what exactly he refers as 'US interests?' Perhaps it's merely a buzz phrase for idle gossips?

The US (both George Bush and Condi Rice) immediately rejected any kind of cease-fire.

Rejected? Openly? Or, perhaps the author was sitting in the same room with George and Condi when he was whispering sweet nothings in her ear?

Israeli officials are privately blaming President George W. Bush for egging Prime Minister Ehud Olmert into the ill-conceived military adventure against the Hezbollah

Egging? Are they just kindergarten children so easily manipulated by cheap talk?

Why did they choose this incident? The only plausible answer is that it was part of a US program.

The only plausible answer? Or, the one favored by the author?

As always, it is the US that has the most power to change things.

And as always, it's idiots like this author who must stoop to making up crap to yet again bash the US for someone else's shortcomings.

What's worse, though, is the author of this thread who would resort to posting such pathetic propaganda. Very sad, indeed.

S.A.M.
09-20-06, 08:49 PM
Really? What exactly are blah blah blah




Adolf Hitler : "What luck for leaders that men don't think."

Mr. G
09-20-06, 08:59 PM
Sam,

I'm not seeing your lead in this dance, so far.

You posted "main highlights" of an article. But where do you offer up your personal synthesis of it before asking for the same from others?

No real lead, just some stepping on toes. ;)

What's up with that?

S.A.M.
09-20-06, 09:00 PM
Sam,

I'm not seeing you're lead in this dance, so far.

You posted "main highlights" of an article. But where do you offer up your personal synthesis of it before asking for the same from others?

No real lead, just some stepping on toes. ;)

What's up with that?

Proxy war ;)

PS Toes are not being stepped on; they are being chewed by the posters in question.
(foot in mouth syndrome)

Mr. G
09-20-06, 09:04 PM
Perv.

S.A.M.
09-20-06, 09:05 PM
Perv.

you know them better than I do. :p

Mr. G
09-20-06, 09:05 PM
Now, actually answer my question.

Mr. G
09-20-06, 09:06 PM
you know them better than I do. :p
Assumes facts not in evidence.

You do, do you?

S.A.M.
09-20-06, 09:19 PM
Now, actually answer my question.

Yes, sir! :eek:

The article:

Its a Jewish perspective. Jews for Peace. They want peace between Israel and Palestine. In an in-depth analysis, they present a justification for actions based on their perceptions of the war (which will be influenced by their agenda, they are only human).


The war:

The harsh retaliation of Israel to the Hezbullah kidnapping was waaaaaaay out of proportion, even for Israel.

Bush did not personally speak to Lebanon or Israel during the conflict.

Condi rejected the UN resolution for ceasefire without even attempting a dialogue with the two parties.

The US quickly sent arms ordered waaaay in advance by Israel, immediately.

There was no US condemnation of the airstrikes inspite of Israels daily apologies for killing civilians and protests worldwide. The only concession was that Condi asked Israel to be humane.

The code word was "birth pangs of a NEW MIDDLE EAST".

There was constant emphasis on the role of Iran and Syria all through the war with no direct evidence.

i.e. Why are Iran supplying old Katyushas to a militant guerilla group?
*turns blind eye to self sending Israel precision (haha) guided missiles*

Olmert kept changing his mind (yes ceasefire, no ceasefire, limited ceasefire, ceasefire on some days, ceasefire in some locations ) all through the war.

Israel did not start a full-fledged ground invasion until 10 days before the end of the war, when it used extreme force to beat back the Hezbollah.

What do I think?

1. I think it was a proxy war, a test run and an exhibition of excessive force for Iran's benefit.

2. The road map proposed by the US is not in Israel's long term interest, but who cares? The US?

S.A.M.
09-20-06, 09:23 PM
Assumes facts not in evidence.

You do, do you?

Ass-u-me ?

or know?

Just an observation based on virtual interaction.

Mr. G
09-20-06, 10:38 PM
Yes, sir! :eek:
Ah. Station.
What do I think?

1. I think it was a proxy war, a test run and an exhibition of excessive force for Iran's benefit.
Iran's situationally unintended proxy war, most assuredly. The rest is just speculation. As an exhibition, it left much to be desired.
2. The road map proposed by the US is not in Israel's long term interest, ..
Agreed. But how serious is the offer, based on it actually being bought into by the other side?

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 06:12 AM
Ah. Station.

Iran's situationally unintended proxy war, most assuredly.

How so?


The rest is just speculation. As an exhibition, it left much to be desired.

Its not the first time the US has underestimated the power of home territory for the outcome of war.

If I was a strategist, I'd make sure the US stayed at war. Nothing like a little hubris to keep one from admitting defeat.


Agreed. But how serious is the offer, based on it actually being bought into by the other side?

Offers are made with the assumption of acceptance.

(Q)
09-21-06, 07:43 AM
Adolf Hitler : "What luck for leaders that men don't think."

Oh, I see, the real war was in separating fact from fiction, observation from speculation.

I suppose had I also been there standing next to the author, thinking would have come naturally.

But then, the author was a man, was he not? Only the thinking sam knows for sure.

Baron Max
09-21-06, 07:46 AM
The harsh retaliation of Israel to the Hezbullah kidnapping was waaaaaaay out of proportion, even for Israel.

Yes, the Hez and Israelis should continue to exchange little tiny acts of horror instead of one trying to actually do something. Ten thousand years of little tiny atrocities is a wonderful objective for any two nations!

If one fighter is stronger than the other, he should tie one hand behind his back before the fight so as to make it "fair" ...sorta' like the Queens Rules!

Baron Max

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 08:06 AM
Oh, I see, the real war was in separating fact from fiction, observation from speculation.

I suppose had I also been there standing next to the author, thinking would have come naturally.

But then, the author was a man, was he not? Only the thinking sam knows for sure.

Are you saying that the reason the US wanted a "sustained ceasefire" was for the benefit of the Lebanese? Or the Israelis?

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 08:43 AM
Yes, the Hez and Israelis should continue to exchange little tiny acts of horror instead of one trying to actually do something. Ten thousand years of little tiny atrocities is a wonderful objective for any two nations!

If one fighter is stronger than the other, he should tie one hand behind his back before the fight so as to make it "fair" ...sorta' like the Queens Rules!

Baron Max

Every bully is a hero in his own eyes.

Baron Max
09-21-06, 08:48 AM
Every bully is a hero in his own eyes.

Why didn't you answer my points, Sam? Should a strong nation or strong man tie their hands behind them so as to allow the weaker nation to beat the shit out of him? ....all in the name of "fair"?

Baron Max

Buffalo Roam
09-21-06, 09:02 AM
Baron Max, careful your being to logical for her, she might get mad and put you on Ignore.

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 09:16 AM
Why didn't you answer my points, Sam? Should a strong nation or strong man tie their hands behind them so as to allow the weaker nation to beat the shit out of him? ....all in the name of "fair"?

Baron Max

I think a nation that needs to use military might to prove its worth is not strong.

And a nation that uses miliary strength against lesser equipped nations to "protect its interests" and then claims the benefits of open democratic society is a hypocrite.

A nation that uses dictators to oppress a people so they can afford gas for their SUVs is a tyrant.

The answer to your question? A nation with that kind of military might should not NEED to use it. If it does, its a failure, both of the democratic process and diplomacy.

Buffalo Roam
09-21-06, 11:24 AM
samcdkey, so your saying we don't need a military?

Buffalo Roam
09-21-06, 11:38 AM
samcdkey
The answer to your question? A nation with that kind of military might should not NEED to use it. If it does, its a failure, both of the democratic process and diplomacy.

So how when a country refuses to follow the U.N. resolutions and continues to ignore all the diplomacy, and continues to acquire weapons, let leave out WMD's, let's just look at the conventional force structure that Saddam was building, how do you enforce the U.N's will on that country? Saddam was continuing to acquire weapons at a astounding rate, for what purpose? Saddam has a history of trying to invade other countries in the area to control the oil, and threaten the economy of the world, so when do you stop the diplomacy? Did all the diplomacy done before WWII do any good, or did it let a some small time hoodlum's and criminal's think they were the 2nd coming of Christ and continue down a path that lead to a war that cost the World 300,000,000 dead, and the total destruction of Europe and Asia

Baron Max
09-21-06, 12:29 PM
The answer to your question? A nation with that kind of military might should not NEED to use it. If it does, its a failure, both of the democratic process and diplomacy.

Sam, you seem to think that you're knowledgeable in the processes of diplomacy ...... when was the last time in history that diplomacy solved any major international crisis? Just a few of those historical, diplomatic wonders would suffice, okay?

Baron Max

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 06:36 PM
Sam, you seem to think that you're knowledgeable in the processes of diplomacy ...... when was the last time in history that diplomacy solved any major international crisis? Just a few of those historical, diplomatic wonders would suffice, okay?

Baron Max

LTTE in India-Sri Lanka conflict. Suicide bombers killed the Prime Minister.

Resolved entirely and completely through diplomacy.

Buffalo Roam
09-21-06, 06:49 PM
Killing a Prime Minister is Diplomacy? then what is the difference here? As far as I know there is still a war going on in Sri Lanka.

Baron Max
09-21-06, 06:53 PM
LTTE in India-Sri Lanka conflict. ...(deleted note about suicide attacks as irrelevant)... Resolved entirely and completely through diplomacy.

Resolved entirely and completely? Sam, there are still conflicts going on in the area as we speak, not to mention almost constant military squabbles and minor aggressions! Is that what you call "resolved"????

Baron Max

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 07:09 PM
Resolved entirely and completely? Sam, there are still conflicts going on in the area as we speak, not to mention almost constant military squabbles and minor aggressions! Is that what you call "resolved"????

Baron Max

Not in India.

We learned our lesson when we interfered in that countries politics before by sending the peacekeeping force.

It is, quite simply, not our job to police other countries.

Buffalo Roam
09-21-06, 07:19 PM
"Kashmir conflict"

Baron Max
09-21-06, 07:20 PM
Not in India.

Yes, Sam!! India and Sri Lanka are constantly squabbling over political and economic issues! It's been going on for so many years that you may not even be aware of it .....especially since you spend so much of your time and energy worryin' about the Middle East!

So .....even if we give you this one example of international diplomacy, that means that in all of history, there's only been ONE case of a major issue solved by diplomacy? Ain't much of a good record for diplomacy, is it? And yet you and other continue to suggest that diplomacy be used to solve major issues???

C'mon, Sam, tell us some more issues that diplomacy has solved?

Baron Max

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 07:27 PM
Yes, Sam!! India and Sri Lanka are constantly squabbling over political and economic issues! It's been going on for so many years that you may not even be aware of it .....especially since you spend so much of your time and energy worryin' about the Middle East!

So .....even if we give you this one example of international diplomacy, that means that in all of history, there's only been ONE case of a major issue solved by diplomacy? Ain't much of a good record for diplomacy, is it? And yet you and other continue to suggest that diplomacy be used to solve major issues???

C'mon, Sam, tell us some more issues that diplomacy has solved?

Baron Max

I gave you one. If one works that means others can.

Has the diplomatic process been tried in a selfless manner?

And I know far more about Indian politics than I do about US and ME.

History is actually my favorite subject, I could probably give you a rough rundown of Indian history from ancient India until now, with bits thrown in from Hindu mythology, and folk tales like the Panchatantra and Jataka, as well as Hindu religious texts such as the Mahabharata, Ramayana and Bhagvad Geeta.

Take my word for it.

If a man cannot use his mind over his muscles, doesn't speak much for his intelligence, education or his power of persuasion. (or level of evolution)

In India we say the first man to lose his cool in a debate is the loser.

“The more efficient a force is, the more silent and the more subtle it is.”
Mahatma Gandhi

“Force always attracts men of low morality.”
Albert Einstein

PS. Do you know how we won our freedom from the British?

Baron Max
09-21-06, 07:50 PM
You asked for one, right?

No, in my original post, I asked for examples ...with an 's'.

But even your example is not correct, Sam ...India and Sri Lanka have been having minor difficulties for years and years! Why do you not acknowlege those squabbles and complaints? Why did you just gloss right over it?

And then turn around and give me a history of India, which NOT an example of diplomacy at work by any fuckin' means! Again, you just glossed right over things that don't work in your favor ...is that how you deal with unpleasant issues yourself? ....and yet demand diplomacy in major international political differences?

If a man cannot use his mind over his muscles, doesn't speak much for his intelligence, education or his power of persuasion. (or level of evolution)

Well, he can't, can he? Have you ever seen it actually work in major political issues? Ever? In all of human history?

Wanting something, wishing for something, Sam, is not the same thing as it being true or workable. Humans are greedy, selfish, gluttonous, lying, vicious savages .....who happen to shave so they mostly look nice and clean!!

Do you know how we won our freedom from the British?

Yeah, I know the story ....y'all used terrorism and constant harrassment of the British forces until they just got so fuckin' tired of it that the picked up and left!!

And interestingly, much of what the British brought to India is still in use, isn't it, Sam? So don't make the British out to be so bad for India. Had it not been for the Brits, you'd not have any fuckin' trains for terrorist to blow up!!

But let's stay on course here, Sam .....tell me about all these wonderful achievments of international diplomacy!!

Baron Max

S.A.M.
09-21-06, 07:54 PM
But let's stay on course here,

After you...thread derailer supreme!!!



Sam .....tell me about all these wonderful achievments of international diplomacy!!

Baron Max


Start a new thread.

And you can read right?

http://www.google.com/search?q=diplomacy+worked&btnG=Search&hs=4zY&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial

Zakariya04
09-22-06, 04:11 AM
samcdkey


So how when a country refuses to follow the U.N. resolutions and continues to ignore all the diplomacy, and continues to acquire weapons, let leave out WMD's,

Good Morning Buffalo

How are you i hope all is good..


I was wondering, i think i did ask this in another thread but you must have missed it or something!!!
But what are countries ignore/refuse to follow Un resolutions, iognores diplomacy and continues to acquire WMD??


let's just look at the conventional force structure that Saddam was building, how do you enforce the U.N's will on that country? Saddam was continuing to acquire weapons at a astounding rate, for what purpose? Saddam has a history of trying to invade other countries in the area to control the oil, and threaten the economy of the world, so when do you stop the diplomacy? Did all the diplomacy done before WWII do any good, or did it let a some small time hoodlum's and criminal's think they were the 2nd coming of Christ and continue down a path that lead to a war that cost the World 300,000,000 dead, and the total destruction of Europe and Asia

Buffalo,

have you got any figures on the Weapons acquisitions by Iraq since 1991 to the fall of Saddam??

*************************************

oh and going back to the title of the thread, Iran is the end game here so they are next, unless the US is relooking at its strategy in light of the recent war of the proxy's

Buffalo Roam
09-22-06, 09:15 AM
Well you just named the latest one Iran, India was another one on Nuclear Weapons, and Pakistan has just done the same thing on Nuclear Weapons, Argentina, Given time I could find more but I have places to go for the weekend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War
3rd April UN Security Council passes Resolution 502 by 10 votes to 1 (with 4 abstentions) demanding immediate Argentine withdrawal from the Islands - Argentina refuses to comply;

Zakariya04
09-22-06, 09:47 AM
Well you just named the latest one Iran, India was another one on Nuclear Weapons, and Pakistan has just done the same thing on Nuclear Weapons, Argentina, Given time I could find more but I have places to go for the weekend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War
Buffalo

thank you but surely you can do better?

Zakariya04
09-22-06, 11:33 AM
Buffalo,

going anywhere nice for the weekend??

Mr. G
09-22-06, 09:24 PM
How so?
RE: Iran's situationally unintended proxy war,...

I'm of a mind to believe that Iran prefered the psychological affects on Israel of Hezbollah's threat of potential destruction by multi-thousand rocket barrages and not Hezbollah's demonstration that barrages of thousands of Hizbollah rockets can kill mostly cows and Arab-Israelis.
Its not the first time the US has underestimated the power of home territory for the outcome of war.
Viet Nam was then. This is now.

Fish in newsprint.
If I was a strategist, I'd make sure the US stayed at war. Nothing like a little hubris to keep one from admitting defeat.
If you were a strategist, you'd merely be one among many.

Then you'd have to resort to politics to sell your version.

But you're not an admitted expert in tactics, are you? ;)

http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Mr. G
09-22-06, 09:28 PM
I think a nation that needs to use military might to prove its worth is not strong.
I think a nation forced to use its military might to defend itself proves that Darwin was on to something.

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 09:31 PM
RE: Iran's situationally unintended proxy war,...

I'm of a mind to believe that Iran prefered the psychological affects on Israel of Hezbollah's threat of potential destruction by multi-thousand rocket barrages and not Hezbollah's demonstration that barrages of thousands of Hizbollah rockets can kill mostly cows and Arab-Israelis.

Sure. But winning a war is not about casualties, its about gaining your objectives.


Viet Nam was then. This is now.

I was thinking of Afghanistan, Taliban, Osama and Iraq.



If you were a strategist, you'd merely be one among many.

Then you'd have to resort to politics to sell your version.

But you're not an admitted expert in tactics, are you? ;)

Only because I haven't set my mind to it.

I hear I'm pretty good at just about anything when I dare. ;)

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 09:35 PM
I think a nation forced to use its military might to defend itself proves that Darwin was on to something.

A nation forced to use its military might is losing touch with reality.

Overweight = 60% ( obesity =30%)

English & Math skills falling.

More TV than people in the house. ( average 3 per household)

And I forget what the current figure is on the national debt.

What does Darwin say about this?

Mr. G
09-22-06, 09:41 PM
Sure. But winning a war is not about casualties, its about gaining your objectives.
You're a modernist.

Winning a war has always been about casualties: Killing everyone who resists, and everyone who is not your own kind.

Only lately has winning been about avoiding insult.

I was thinking of Afghanistan, Taliban, Osama and Iraq.
Then I'm thinking you're a little on the daft side of situational reality, Love.
I hear I'm pretty good at just about anything when I dare. ;)
Hear this: You are my reason to live.

Are you even gooder because your vanity gene has been stimulated?

Mr. G
09-22-06, 09:43 PM
A nation forced to use its military might is losing touch with reality.

Overweight = 60% ( obesity =30%)

English & Math skills falling.

More TV than people in the house. ( average 3 per household)

And I forget what the current figure is on the national debt.

What does Darwin say about this?
Folks need to tear us down to feel better about their own lesser circumstance?

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 09:48 PM
You're a modernist.

Winning a war has always been about casualties: Killing everyone who resists, and everyone who is not your own kind.

Only lately has winning been about avoiding insult.


War was always about the perception of power.
Casualties were an indication of it.

Have you read about Gengis Khan?
Marvelous despot.

Then I'm thinking you're a little on the daft side of situational reality, Love.

What? Think nobody cares that OBL is still on the loose?
And that Iraq is a quagmire that was supposed to be over in 6 months?

The credit card does have a limit you know, though it may not seem like it when the cash is flowing out of it.


Hear this: You are my reason to live.

Then, my dear, you will live to regret it.

Are you even gooder because your vanity gene has been stimulated?

I don't have enough ambition to be vain.

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 09:49 PM
Folks need to tear us down to feel better about their own lesser circumstance?

Doesn't any American think beyond his individual comfort?

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:02 PM
War was always about the perception of power.
Casualties were an indication of it.
War is projection for the winner, perception for the loser.
What? Think nobody cares that OBL is still on the loose?
What? Think nobody cares that OBL still hasn't taken down Dubya, whose still on the loose?

And that AmeriKa is a quagmire that was supposed to be over in two towers?
The credit card does have a limit you know, though it may not seem like it when the cash is flowing out of it.
Precisely whom do you imagine possesses the Credit Card with the greatist limit? And the greatist cash reserve?
Then, my dear, you will live to regret it.
That has been my history, yes.

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:03 PM
Doesn't any American think beyond his individual comfort?
Yes. All of us Independents, and most Republicans.

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:06 PM
War is projection for the winner, perception for the loser.

Interesting look at the American psyche.

What? Think nobody cares that OBL still hasn't taken down Dubya, whose still on the loose?

And that AmeriKa is a quagmire that was supposed to be over in two towers?

Do you really think anyone believed that? (even those who promote the War on Trrr)?

Precisely whom do you imagine possesses the Credit Card with the greatist limit? And the greatist cash reserve?

That depends on who has the best credit history. And is able to sustain it.

That has been my history, yes.

I'd heard. Friendly warning.
Perceptions rarely meet expectations.

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:07 PM
Yes. All of us Independents, and most Republicans.

What exactly is an Independent?

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:11 PM
What exactly is an Independent?
Not you.

Come to America. We'll show you the way.

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:12 PM
Not you.

Come to America. We'll show you the way.

I am in the US.

But seriously, what is an Independent?

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:21 PM
I am in the US.
That is so right and so wrong on so many levels.

"Danger, Will Robinson!"
But seriously, what is an Independent?
An Independent can be a person who has at one time, or another, been both a Democrat and a Republican with no difference in outcome.

So why be either?

And being an anarchist is no option because who in their right mind volunteers for a lobotomy?

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:23 PM
That is so right and so wrong on so many levels.

"Danger, Will Robinson!"


Down boy!! Steady now! :p


An Independent can be a person who has at one time, or another, been both a Democrat and a Republican with no difference in outcome.

So why be either?

And being an anarchist is no option because who in their right mind volunteers for a lobotomy?

Seems a sensible choice; avoid the extremes of fanaticism.

Why can be?

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:33 PM
Interesting look at the American psyche.
You're here, but you don't relate?

H1B, or H2B, right?

Funny that mine seems to be the intersting American psyche within this demographic.

Hey, flowers bloom from "organically fertilized" fields, afterall. ;)

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:36 PM
You're here, but you don't relate?

H1B, or H2B, right?

Funny that mine seems to be the intersting American psyche within this demographic.

Hey, flowers bloom from "organically fertilized" fields, afterall. ;)

Nope, F1.

And I'm not where I could generalise.

And I'm still Indian. :p

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:36 PM
Why can be?
Because generalities are never true. :)

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:37 PM
Because generalities are never true. :)

Why, you're a scientist! ( Or a teacher?)

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:41 PM
Nope, F1.

And I'm not where I could generalise.

And I'm still Indian. :p
Americans are from everywhere. We don't discount origin. My family is Romanian and Norwegian.

We are indelibly American.

Independents, in other words. ;)

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:44 PM
Americans are from everywhere. We don't discount origin. My family is Romanian and Norwegian.

We are indelibly American.

Independents, in other words. ;)

I'm guessing not all Americans are so concerned with their origins; I mean lookit all "the immigrants"!! :eek:

Interesting background, but is it recent?

I doubt origin matters much after the second generation except as an indulgence in nostalgia.

Mr. G
09-22-06, 10:55 PM
I'm guessing not all Americans are so concerned with their origins; I mean lookit all "the immigrants"!! :eek:

Interesting background, but is it recent?

I doubt origin matters much after the second generation except as an indulgence in nostalgia.
My father's Basarabian side of the family has been here since 1848. I'm not sure when my mother's side of the family came ashore.

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 10:57 PM
My father's Basarabian side of the family has been here since 1848. I'm not sure when my mother's side of the family came ashore.

Then you're American. (I haven't seen any socialist leanings, that would explain it. Your family moved out before the October Revolution :p )

Mr. G
09-22-06, 11:10 PM
Then you're American. (I haven't seen any socialist leanings, that would explain it. Your family moved out before the October Revolution :p )
Long before.

I am American.

I have old world roots. Most all of us have Old World roots.

We're better, now.

Funny that non-Americans ridicule us for sport.

Funny that non-Americans come here for some imagined benefit instead of staying home.

This is the part I really like ===> http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

S.A.M.
09-22-06, 11:15 PM
Long before.

I am American.

I have old world roots. Most all of us have Old World roots.

We're better, now.

Funny that non-Americans ridicule us for sport.

Funny that non-Americans come here for some imagined benefit instead of staying home.

This is the part I really like ===> http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Like I said, perceptions rarely meet expectations.

lixluke
09-22-06, 11:33 PM
Somebody claimed that the conflict was started by Hezbollah.
Are people really that dumb?
1. Israel invaded Lebanon, and stayed for 18 years. Hezbollah retaliates eventually driving them out.
Instigator: Israel

2. Israel blows up a Lebanese leader in a car. Hezobollah retaliates by killing and kidnapping soldiers.
Instigator: Israel


Why in anybody's right mind would you think that Hezbollah instigated this month of conflict?

Baron Max
09-23-06, 08:51 AM
If we continue to condone revenge and retaliation, then we've lost anyway as humans and civilized societies. Anyone, from either side, can point to acts that they claim "caused" the problems .....but how far back into history do we go? Back to the Stone Age?

At some point, we, as humans, simply has to learn to forgive or we're lost as civilized human societies. And since I believe that we can't learn to forgive, we should just accept all the violence and enjoy it while we can. Hey, to some people, murder and killing and war is a fun thing to do .....why don't we just let them have their fun? ...like we're doing now in Darfur and Central Africa. Those people are having fun killing other people, and we're letting them do it. We should stay back and watch it all like, say, a football game ....cheering and happy and drinkiing to the "goals" made by one or the other "teams".

Baron Max

Zakariya04
09-23-06, 09:07 AM
If we continue to condone revenge and retaliation, then we've lost anyway as humans and civilized societies. Anyone, from either side, can point to acts that they claim "caused" the problems .....but how far back into history do we go? Back to the Stone Age?

At some point, we, as humans, simply has to learn to forgive or we're lost as civilized human societies.
Baron Max

you see the baron is so nice

preaching forgiveness.....

Ok then isreal should forgive the palestinains and give back the west bank and gazza etc..

it should also forgive the Syrian and give back the golan and so on and so forth...

you see what a top bloke the baron is....

Mr.Spock
09-26-06, 07:41 AM
Somebody claimed that the conflict was started by Hezbollah.
Are people really that dumb?
1. Israel invaded Lebanon, and stayed for 18 years. Hezbollah retaliates eventually driving them out.
Instigator: Israel

israel invaded lebanon after the fatah fired rockets to northern israel.
it stayed there to stop hezbollah from doing the same.
infact israel left lebanon and hezbollah still atacked israel.for those like who dont know hezbollah fired rockets on israeli settlements before israel retaliated during the soldier kidnapping.

2. Israel blows up a Lebanese leader in a car. Hezobollah retaliates by killing and kidnapping soldiers.
Instigator: Israel


hariri? :lol: that was syria


Why in anybody's right mind would you think that Hezbollah instigated this month of conflict?

because they are smart enough not to buy your lies

Zakariya04
09-26-06, 08:50 AM
hariri? :lol: that was syria



HI PREDATOR,

Nice to see you are back , how are you.

please can you provide evidence to back up this allegation

thank you

Mr.Spock
09-26-06, 10:22 AM
HI PREDATOR,

Nice to see you are back , how are you.

please can you provide evidence to back up this allegation

thank you
http://www.un.org/News/dh/docs/mehlisreport/

S.A.M.
09-26-06, 10:30 AM
http://www.un.org/News/dh/docs/mehlisreport/


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CAT20060915&articleId=3237

Mr.Spock
09-26-06, 10:48 AM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CAT20060915&articleId=3237
who the hell is Jürgen Cain Külbel?

S.A.M.
09-26-06, 10:58 AM
who the hell is Jürgen Cain Külbel?

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%25C3%25BCrgen_Cain_K%25C3%25BClbel&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJ%25C3%25BCrgen%2BCain%2BK%25C3%25BCl bel%2Bwiki%26hl%3Den%26hs%3DlaZ%26lr%3D%26safe%3Do ff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

Mr.Spock
09-26-06, 11:04 AM
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%25C3%25BCrgen_Cain_K%25C3%25BClbel&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJ%25C3%25BCrgen%2BCain%2BK%25C3%25BCl bel%2Bwiki%26hl%3Den%26hs%3DlaZ%26lr%3D%26safe%3Do ff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG
its a nice book he published i guess. made him lot of money to become from no body to some body based on a gut feeling

"Right after the murder I had a bad gut feeling that it was less an investigative setback than that the UN investigators were— and continue to — vehemently follow only the Syrian lead, but above all I had the feeling that it was a premeditated and criminal act, just like the intentional and criminal and, as of today, unpunished act of faking and fabricating “proof” by the Americans and their lackeys – white collar criminals on the highest political level - that legitimized the international attack on Iraq - contrary to international law - in the spring of 2003."

Zakariya04
09-26-06, 11:22 AM
its a nice book he published i guess. made him lot of money to become from no body to some body based on a gut feeling

"Right after the murder I had a bad gut feeling that it was less an investigative setback than that the UN investigators were— and continue to — vehemently follow only the Syrian lead, but above all I had the feeling that it was a premeditated and criminal act, just like the intentional and criminal and, as of today, unpunished act of faking and fabricating “proof” by the Americans and their lackeys – white collar criminals on the highest political level - that legitimized the international attack on Iraq - contrary to international law - in the spring of 2003."
hello
predator

the investigation is still being undertaken.. so not conclusive as yet??

Zephyr
09-26-06, 12:31 PM
Very much so. Here's an article from yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5380054.stm

"A UN inquiry into the killing of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri has found new evidence that he was probably killed by a suicide bomber."

Zephyr
09-26-06, 12:33 PM
Then you're American. (I haven't seen any socialist leanings, that would explain it. Your family moved out before the October Revolution :p )
Isn't the lack of an October Revolution partially because American capitalism, unlike European, wasn't tied to a crippling class system? Hence "the American dream"