AEROPLANES IN ANCIENT INDIA

The Rig Veda, the oldest document of the human race includes references to the following modes of transportation: Jalayan - a vehicle designed to operate in air and water (Rig Veda 6.58.3); Kaara- Kaara- Kaara- a vehicle that operates on ground and in water. (Rig Veda 9.14.1); Tritala- Tritala- Tritala- a vehicle consisting of three stories. (Rig Veda 3.14.1); Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - a three-wheeled vehicle designed to operate in the air. (Rig Veda 4.36.1); Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- a gas or wind-powered chariot. (Rig Veda 5.41.6); Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- a vehicle that operates on power. (Rig Veda 3.14.1).

Ancient Sanskrit literature is full of descriptions of flying machines - Vimanas. From the many documents found it is evident that the scientist-sages Agastya and Bharadwaja had developed the lore of aircraft construction.

The "Agastya Samhita" gives us Agastya's descriptions of two types of aeroplanes. The first is a "chchatra" (umbrella or balloon) to be filled with hydrogen. The process of extracting hydrogen from water is described in elaborate detail and the use of electricity in achieving this is clearly stated. This was stated to be a primitive type of plane, useful only for escaping from a fort when the enemy had set fire to the jungle all around. Hence the name "Agniyana". The second type of aircraft mentioned is somewhat on the lines of the parachute. It could be opened and shut by operating chords. This aircraft has been described as "vimanadvigunam" i.e. of a lower order than the regular aeroplane.

Bhardwaja's "Vaimanika Shastra" not only gives information on his methods of aeroplane construction but also provides a bibliography. He had consulted six treatises by six different authors previous to him. After him too there have been four commentaries on his work. Planes which will not break (abhedya), or catch fire (adaahya) and which cannot be cut (achchedya) have also been described. Along with the treatise there are diagrams of three types of aeroplanes - "Sundara", "Shukana" and "Rukma".

It appears that aerial warfare was also not unknown, for the treatise gives the technique of "shatru vimana kampana kriya" and "shatru vimana nashana kriya" i.e. shaking and destroying enemy aircraft, as well as photographing enemy planes, rendering their occupants unconscious and making one's own plane invisible.

The Arthasastra of Kautilya (c. 3rd century B.C.) mentions amongst various tradesmen and technocrats the Saubhikas as 'pilots conducting vehicles in the sky'. Saubha was the name of the aerial flying city of King Harishchandra and the form 'Saubika' means 'one who flies or knows the art of flying an aerial city'. Kautilya uses another significant word 'Akasa Yodhinah', which has been translated as 'persons who are trained to fight from the sky.' The existence of aerial chariots, in whatever form it might be, was so well-known that it found a place among the royal edicts of the Emperor Asoka which were executed during his reign from 256 B.C. - 237 B. C.

More stuff from India:

A glass-like material which cannot be detected by radar has been developed by Prof Dongre, a research scholar of Benaras Hindu University, based on technology found in an ancient Sanskrit text, Vaimanika Shastra. A plane coated with this unique material cannot be detected using radar.

Only a few years ago, the Chinese discovered some Sanskrit documents in Lhasa, Tibet and sent them to the University of Chandrigarh to be translated. Dr. Ruth Reyna of the university said that the documents contain directions for building interstellar spaceships! The Chinese announced that they were including certain parts of the documents for study in their space program.

What's the source of that information, kmguru?

I know of no glass-like substance which is immune to radar. Nor am I aware of China building interstellar spaceships.

The RADAR stuff. Source: Deccan Herald, Dated Nov. 2, 2002 writer: Rajesh Parishwad, DH News Service BANGALORE

If this were true, where'd the ancient yogis get their information? Is it like the scriptures say (got it from meditating) or are they aliens :confused: :rolleyes:

Found it.


"A glass-like material based on technology found in an ancient Sanskrit text that could ultimately be used in a stealth bomber (the material cannot be detected by radar) has been developed by a research scholar of Benaras Hindu University.

Prof M A Lakshmithathachar, Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote, near Mandya, told Deccan Herald that tests conducted with the material showed radars could not detect it. "The unique material cannot be traced by radar and so a plane coated with it cannot be detected using radar," he said.

The academy had been commissioned by the Aeronautical Research Development Board, New Delhi, to take up a one-year study, 'Non-conventional approach to Aeronautics,' on the basis of an old text, Vaimanika Shastra, authored by Bharadwaj.

Now, all this was back in 2002. Why haven't we heard anything more about it? No, wait, let me guess. A conspiracy of silence, right?

It is being checked out as I post. I think, the reporter made it up. But this time we have a place to check.

There are a lot of materials that can absorb or scatter RADAR energy. just because the test worked does not mean they have the technology to apply it that is stable, light and does not fall off.

Besides, if they took one year to study - it will take atleast five years in India.

The early hindus thought of alot of interesting things with the help of Soma, whatever that is, probably some kind of mushroom. But thinking fanciful thoughts and having existing technology are very different things.

Rig Veda 6.58.3:

HYMN LVIII. Pusan.
1. LIKE heaven art thou: one form is bright, one holy, like Day and Night dissimilar in colour.
All magic powers thou aidest, self-depen. dent! Auspicious be thy bounty here, O Pusan.
2 Goat-borne, the guard of cattle, he whose home is strength, inspirer of the hymn, set over all the world;
Brandishing here and there his lightly. moving goad, beholding every creature, Pusan, God, goes forth.
3 O Pusan, with thy golden ships that travel across the ocean, in the air's mid-region,Thou goest on an embassy to Surya, subdued by love, desirous of the glory.
4 Near kinsman of the heaven and earth is Pusan, liberal, Lord of food, of wondrous iustre,
Whom strong and vigorous and swiftlymoving, subdued by love, the Deities gave to Surya.

Rig Veda 4.36.1:

HYMN XXXVI. Rbhus.
1. THia car that was not made for horses or for reins, three-wheeled, worthy of lauds, rolls round the firmament.
That is the great announcement of your Deity, that, O ye Rbhus, ye sustain the earth and heaven.
2 Ye Sapient Ones who made the lightly-rolling car out of your mind, by thought, the car that never errs,You, being such, to drink of this drinkoffering, you, O ye Vajas, and ye Rbhus, we invoke.
3 O Vajas, Rbhus, reaching far, among the Gods this was your exaltation gloriously declared,
In that your aged Parents, worn with length of days, ye wrought again to youth so that they moved at will.
4 The chalice that wag single ye have made fourfold, and by your wisdom brought the Cow forth from the hide.
So quickly, mid the Gods, ye gained immortal life. Vajas and Rbhus, your great work must be extolled.
5 Wealth from the Rbhus is most glorious in renown, that which the Heroes, famed for vigour, have produced.
In synods must be sung the car which Vibhvan wrought: that which ye favour, Gods! is famed among mankind.
6 Strong is the steed, the man a sage in eloquence, the bowman is a hero hard to beat in fight,
Great store of wealth and manly power hath he obtained whom Vaja, Vibhvan, Rbhus have looked kindly on.
7 To you hath been assigned the fairest ornament, the hymn of praise: Vajas and Rbhus, joy therein;
For ye have lore and wisdom and poetic skill: as such, with this our prayer we call on you to come.
8 According to the wishes of our hearts may ye, who have full knowledge of all the delights of men,
Fashion for us, O Rbhus, power and splendid wealth, rich in high courage, excellent, and vital strength.
9 Bestowing on us here riches and offspring, here fashion fame for us befitting heroes.
Vouchsafe us wealth of splendid sort, O Rbhus, that we may make us more renowned than others.

As I highlighted, the vehicle is your mind. These are psychedelic parables, not to be taken literally. Indeed, when taken literally, they lose all their intended meaning.

As I highlighted, the vehicle is your mind. These are psychedelic parables, not to be taken literally. Indeed, when taken literally, they lose all their intended meaning.

You mean just like 2001 Space Odyssey or Star Trek or Babylon 5? :D

As I highlighted, the vehicle is your mind. These are psychedelic parables, not to be taken literally. Indeed, when taken literally, they lose all their intended meaning.

But the ancient hindus believe that everything (material and non-material) is made up of thought so how can you really tell...

Everything you can be aware of IS made of thought. The existence of a material world is only inferred.

u may find the bhagvad geeta a good instruction manual.

Now, all this was back in 2002. Why haven't we heard anything more about it? No, wait, let me guess. A conspiracy of silence, right?
Not so fast James...You havent probably heard of it because you arent supposed to...As it is you Aussies have taken India's Cricket Supremecy away ...:D and no,i am not saying that this piece of info might be true.In all probabilities it was a made up thing...

But you never know these days...When U.S. refused India Super Comp.,India made it on its own.so may be one never knows...
bye!

Besides, if they took one year to study - it will take atleast five years in India.

Tis so true :D

There is a vision of aeroplanes in Ezekiel. Icarus flies in classical mythology and there's something similar in Norse mythology. The important thing is not imaginig someone flyng, seeing at a distance etc, but working out a practical way of actually doing it. Did any of these sacred texts say how a wing or an aerofoil works?

a brief description from clarendon's translation of the Samaranga Sutradhara

Inside the circular air frame, place the mercury-engine with its solar mercury boiler at the aircraft center. By means of the power latent in the heated mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in a most marvellous manner. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by fire through solar or other sources the vimana (aircraft) develops thunder-power through the mercury.

contrast with.......

*The gas used to propel this type of engine is either the gas Ar (Argon) or Xe (Xenon), or the vaporized form of Hg (Mercury) or Cs (Cesium).
*This stored gas enters the ionization chamber to increase its temperature up to the thrust temperature.
*The increase in temperature is done through the ionization of the gas.
*It passes through two acceleration grids which bombard it with positive ions from the power source.
*Before reaching the nozzle the accelerated mass of ionized gas is injected with electrons.
*Thrust is obtained, and the exhaust beam is electrically neutral behind the thruster nozzle.

mercury ion engines (http://www.oswego.edu/nova/facts/ion/ion.html).

SERT II FLIGHT EXPERIMENT (http://www.islandone.org/APC/Electric/07.html#SERT1)

ion engines (http://www.tdf.it/english/ION_eng.html)

One excellent example is the 3,000 year old Vymanika Shastra , meaning “The Science of Aeronautics”. It has been translated by G.R. Josyer, director of the International Academy of Sanskrit research in Mysore, India. The translation, “Aeronautics, a Manuscript From the Prehistoric Past”, was published in book form by Coronation press, Mysore, in 1973.

The Real History of Aviation. (http://www.space-2001.net/html/aviation.html)

Flying high with Shivkur Bapuji Talpade (http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/dec16/snt2.asp)

Does this explain how their are descriptions of other races and living things from other planets in the Puranas? Or is that knowledge attained from using a siddhi power?

anu:
You give a description of an engine which hasn't yet been built and an engine which probably never was built. Neither is much use. Go to any encyclopaedia if aeronautics and it will explain how a wing will give lift and a propellor give propulsion. Go to a relevant engineering book and it will show how an internal combustion engine works. In short, you could put together your own flying machine from them. Do any of your ancient texts give this info? If not, their claims cannot be accepted as certain or relevant

You give a description of an engine which hasn't yet been built and an engine which probably never was built.

you claim there are no functioning ion engines at the present time? elaborate. i merely provided the procedures by which it is claimed an ion engine could be built. it just so happens that one was from a 2000 year old text and the other of more recent times.

If not, their claims cannot be accepted as certain or relevant

why would one want to demand certainty? this info happens to be out there and i am trying to figure out what it all means. one speculates and engages in conjecture. to make definitive claims at this point considering the paucity of info is uneccessary and foolhardy. i mean, the ancients appear to be boiling mercury! that hardly inspires confidence.

i do not have access to these texts. one wonders if they are still in existence

here is how "relevance" works. i know of current mercury ion engines. i hear of ancient texts referring to engines using mercury. should i not at the very least, investigate, make comparisons and formulate a tentative hypothesis based on all available info?

why should i dismiss this? who here is making definitive claims? considering there are references to this stuff all over the world. might there not be something to it? who is to say that some future acheological dig would unearth a flying machine?

the prudent approach would be to accept that there might be something to it. to deny outright or embrace with certainty, possibilties, implies ideology.

i do not play that

No, wait, let me guess. A conspiracy of silence, right?

i had no idea kmguru was a conspiracy theorist
let me ridicule him as you have done :bugeye:

Is it quite possible that these descriptions are descriptions of the possible, rather than the existing? One will remember Da Vinci's diagrams that were never fully realized.

you claim there are no functioning ion engines at the present time? elaborate. i merely provided the procedures by which it is claimed an ion engine could be built. it just so happens that one was from a 2000 year old text and the other of more recent times. Very different proceedures. Both vague, the "ancient" one so vague as to be meaningless.



why would one want to demand certainty? this info happens to be out there and i am trying to figure out what it all means. one speculates and engages in conjecture. to make definitive claims at this point considering the paucity of info is uneccessary and foolhardy. i mean, the ancients appear to be boiling mercury! that hardly inspires confidence. In short, there isn't any evidence for it and, as you say, little cause for confidence.


i do not have access to these texts. one wonders if they are still in existence or if they ever existed, or, perhaps, were created later as ancient texts.


here is how "relevance" works. i know of current mercury ion engines. i hear of ancient texts referring to engines using mercury. should i not at the very least, investigate, make comparisons and formulate a tentative hypothesis based on all available info? Yet none of these ancient texts, it seems, refer to other, simpler and more reliable engines. None of these texts explain how these engines and aeroplanes actually worked.


why should i dismiss this? who here is making definitive claims? considering there are references to this stuff all over the world. might there not be something to it? There might. The moon might be made of green cheese, but it would be wiser to use more probable hypotheses.
who is to say that some future acheological dig would unearth a flying machine?Who indeed? But don't raise your hopes too high.


the prudent approach would be to accept that there might be something to it. to deny outright or embrace with certainty, possibilties, implies ideology. there are levels of likelihood to events. It is less foolish to follow the level of probability.


i do not play thatEH?

Thersites

Very different proceedures. Both vague, the "ancient" one so vague as to be meaningless.

both? ion engines are a fact of life. as you said..Go to a relevant engineering book and it will show how an ion engine works. there is nothing vague about it

In short, there isn't any evidence for it and, as you say, little cause for confidence.

you seem.... over eager

or if they ever existed, or, perhaps, were created later as ancient texts.

you mean forgeries? how interested are you in this? are you willing to make the investment and find out for yourself? the vedas (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm) however are a reality. they exist. the references included in the topic post are not mere conjecture. there might be errors in translation but i would imagine there are numerous versions available.

Yet none of these ancient texts, it seems, refer to other, simpler and more reliable engines. None of these texts explain how these engines and aeroplanes actually worked.

how do you know there are no references? are you a historian or are you merely going by the info presented in this thread?

i would find a 5000 yr old internal engine combustion engine just as fantastic as the mercury powered engine. the expectations of a complete preservation of all historical texts is rather absurd.

There might. The moon might be made of green cheese,

THE SANTA CLAUS GAMBIT: This trick consists of lumping moderate claims or propositions together with extreme ones. If you suggest, for example, that Sasquatch can't be completely ruled out from the available evidence,the skeptic will then facetiously suggest that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny can't be "completely" ruled out either.

but it would be wiser to use more probable hypotheses.Who indeed? But don't raise your hopes too high.

hopes? what the fuck do you think is riding on this? how would the truth or falsity of these claims affect any real change? do you fucking think i have money on this? i suggest you back the fuck off, maggot!

there are levels of likelihood to events. It is less foolish to follow the level of probability.

ahh, i see it is appearances that concern you. no problem.

Thersites

Very different proceedures. Both vague, the "ancient" one so vague as to be meaningless.

both? ion engines are a fact of life. as you said..Go to a relevant engineering book and it will show how an ion engine works. there is nothing vague about it I didn't say ion engines are "a fact of life" actually. A relevant engineering book may tell you how an ion engine works and how to build one. Neither of the extracts- ancient or modern- you cited did.


In short, there isn't any evidence for it and, as you say, little cause for confidence.

you seem.... over eager Eh? Over sceptical, by your standards, perhaps, but over eager for what?


or if they ever existed, or, perhaps, were created later as ancient texts.

you mean forgeries? how interested are you in this? are you willing to make the investment and find out for yourself? the vedas (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm) however are a reality. they exist. the references included in the topic post are not mere conjecture. there might be errors in translation but i would imagine there are numerous versions available. If they still exist and you know they exist, why did you say: "I do not have access to these texts. one wonders if they are still in existence"? There is a long history of pious forgeries: I'm not very bothered about whether these are part of it, but it is an interesting and entertaining topic.


Yet none of these ancient texts, it seems, refer to other, simpler and more reliable engines. None of these texts explain how these engines and aeroplanes actually worked.

how do you know there are no references? are you a historian or are you merely going by the info presented in this thread? I am, of course, going by the info on this thread. However, if there was any such evidence then almost certainly you or someone else would have presented it elsewhere.


i would find a 5000 yr old internal engine combustion engine just as fantastic as the mercury powered engine. the expectations of a complete preservation of all historical texts is rather absurd. An internal combustion engine is much easier to make and use than an ion engine, therefore a society that could produce an ion engine would be likely to have made and supplied info on internal combustion engines first. Given that there would be much more written material on internal combustion engines the probability is that such material would be much more likely to survive.


There might. The moon might be made of green cheese,

THE SANTA CLAUS GAMBIT: This trick consists of lumping moderate claims or propositions together with extreme ones. If you suggest, for example, that Sasquatch can't be completely ruled out from the available evidence,the skeptic will then facetiously suggest that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny can't be "completely" ruled out either. Not at all. I have lumped together several equally improbable claims. I know nothing of sasquatches, but 5000 year old ion engines, the moon being made of green cheese, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny all have about the same level of probability.


but it would be wiser to use more probable hypotheses.Who indeed? But don't raise your hopes too high.

hopes? what the fuck do you think is riding on this? how would the truth or falsity of these claims affect any real change? do you fucking think i have money on this? i suggest you back the fuck off, maggot! Well, something is riding on this. Possibly your vanity and egotism, possibly other matters, but something that gets you a little worked up.


there are levels of likelihood to events. It is less foolish to follow the level of probability.

ahh, i see it is appearances that concern you. no problem.No, it is evidence and probability that concern me. I have no problem with that. Do you?

If the ancient technology was advanced and people who passed the knowledge directly from one person to another (as there may not be any written material due to ice age or whatever - then after several generations, the detail words could have been replaced by then used simpler words to convey meaning. Then of course we lose the accuracy of the technical spec.

This is a speculation only....:D

wise move! i think disclaimers ought to be de rigueur around here lest some maniacal debunker springs out of the foliage and bushwhacks your ass!

Those vimanas, astras (missiles) were all activated by mantras (passwords). Once the passwords were validated the machines were activated, such was the techniques used. No one knows the detailed design of them except those who presented them to the humans.

Disclaimer : this is my own fantacy. it might not be so infact.

Actually mantras could be considered as voice commands to a computer. That is because, if one translates any Sanskrit mantra, you can find straight commands. Some mantras over the years have been added with flowery language and a lot of salutations, as if later generation just added them....

As we develop new technologies such as nano technology, wi-fi, computers, voice commands, etc - they seem to be described in the ancient texts. Could be just co-incidence, but who knows!

Thersites

I didn't say ion engines are "a fact of life" actually. A relevant engineering book may tell you how an ion engine works and how to build one. Neither of the extracts- ancient or modern- you cited did.

note the period. it is my statement. it is the 2nd sentence where i paraphrase you. again, do not assume the ancients archive and preserve as we currently do.

Eh? Over sceptical, by your standards, perhaps, but over eager for what?

no, one can never be too skeptical but one can be most certainly be eager enough to debunk that logic is thrown out in order to make ones case. allow me to demonstrate

Not at all. I have lumped together several equally improbable claims. I know nothing of sasquatches, but 5000 year old ion engines, the moon being made of green cheese, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny all have about the same level of probability.

*green cheese" the composition of the moon has been demonstrated by exploration of surface and a examination of its constituents. do you deny this? walk into to a museum. they probably have moon rocks lying around - zero likelihood

*Easter Bunny: if there is anything the biological sciences can say with absolute certitude. it would be that mammals do not lay eggs - zero likelihood

*Santa Claus: the origin of the myth....Saint Nicholas a bishop of Byzantine Anatolia , modern-day Turkey , famous for generous gifts to the poor. myth/the feast is called ' sinterklaas feest', it celebrates the birthday of sinterklaas during sinterklaasavond ("sinterklaas's evening") :- 99% probability

:the fanciful spin...On Christmas eve, he rides in his flying sleigh (pulled by reindeer ) from house to house to give presents to children. During the rest of the year he lives at the North Pole , in Finnish Lapland , or Dalecarlia in Sweden (traditions vary) together with his wife, Mrs. Claus, and his elves who serve as his toy production staff. - zero likelihood

do you get it? your comparisons can all be falsified. it is impossible rather than improbable. can you to do the same to the ion engine? in any case this intrigues me. lets consider precedents for this kind of thing. ie: ancient references subsequently verified by a scientific investigation perhaps mr rabon can chip in?

If they still exist and you know they exist, why did you say: "I do not have access to these texts. one wonders if they are still in existence"? There is a long history of pious forgeries: I'm not very bothered about whether these are part of it, but it is an interesting and entertaining topic.

pardon. there are numerous bodies of work. some are extant. others are incomplete or not present at all. the Vymanika Shastra, the Arthasastra of Kautilya are not part of the vedas. they are independant of it and of a much later date. as to the forgeries, i am in agreement. one must always be wary. as to access, india is not really renowned for her "library of congress." the sad truth might be that some of these books lie in tattered remains in a shack that passes for a used book store

I am, of course, going by the info on this thread. However, if there was any such evidence then almost certainly you or someone else would have presented it elsewhere.

i think you give us too much credit. there are no specialists here. in my case, if the info is not online, it might as well not exist. (heh)

An internal combustion engine is much easier to make and use than an ion engine, therefore a society that could produce an ion engine would be likely to have made and supplied info on internal combustion engines first. Given that there would be much more written material on internal combustion engines the probability is that such material would be much more likely to survive.

yes, i agree. i am however interested in notion of "technological leaps." instances where the traditional form of scientific progress is not the case. ie: from a to f. there are a few scenarios. one, the child prodigy. the kid has the knowledge without it being taught. two, the knowledge is imparted from outside sources. for instance, the adoption of wireless tech by a society. the infrastructure for land lines and the knowhow is not present. imagine how it may appear to a historian or archeologist of the future .

this of course leads to another consideration which is quite common in these cases. namely, the technology is not local. it came from without. ie: aliens. in order to explore this particular hypothesis, one must consider other probabilities. ie: life outside our solar system, evidence for visitations etc

Well, something is riding on this. Possibly your vanity and egotism, possibly other matters, but something that gets you a little worked up.

it is just the accusation. it is common tactic employed by the debunkers. you want to believe! ones mental condition is suddenly the issue. i get very impatient with this tactic. use at your own risk

No, it is evidence and probability that concern me. I have no problem with that. Do you?

not at all. i sense sincerity. welcome to sciforums ;)

Mantra means - a formula, ma means stem or kernel. Modern meaning outside of a prayer (wish) would be a root command...

Perhaps similar to the incantation in Babylon 5 of the technomaze....

Maharshi Bharadvaja

' Seer of the sacred-formula ' (Mantradrasta) Vedic -Sage, well-versed in the Aeronautics (Vimana-Vidya), wise professor, Maharshi Bharadvaja is said to be the author of books such as Yantra Sarvasva (Complete Mechanics), Amsu Tantra (System of Sun beams) and Akasa-Sastra (scientific treatise on Space). In Yantra-Sarvasva the mechanism concerning the construction of an aeroplane has been explained in accordance with aeronautics and the steps in the process of such a construction are described. In the section dealing with the mechanism of an aeroplane (Vaimanika-Prakarana) a list of twenty five ancient books on aeronautics together with the names of the earlier Acharyas of the science has been given, from which it is known that in ancient India construction and flying of the aeroplanes was fully known. Maharshi Bharadvaja had his famous Gurukul (residential teaching institute) in Prayag near the Sangama (confluence of rivers Ganga ,Yamuna and; Sarasvat )

http://www.hssworld.org/homepage/html/boudhik/ekatmata_stotra/SHLOKA_27.html

"European scholarship regards human civilization as a recent progression starting yesterday with the Fiji islander, and ending today with Rockefeller, conceiving ancient culture as necessarily half savage culture." It is a superstition of modern thought that the march of knowledge has always been linear." "Our vision of "prehistory" is terribly inadequate. We have not yet rid our minds from the hold of a one-and-only God or one-and-only Book, and now a one-and-only Science." *(Shri Aurobindo Ghosh, - 1872-1950)

Vymanika Shastra Rediscovered (http://ebusiness.ada.gov.in/library/library/VymanikaShastra1.htm)

As we develop new technologies such as nano technology, wi-fi, computers, voice commands, etc - they seem to be described in the ancient texts. Could be just co-incidence, but who knows!Such as? I'm sure you can make connections, but they are tenious at best.

ancient shit concerning aircraft

*INDIA

One excellent example is the 3,000 year old Vymanika Shastra, meaning “The Science of Aeronautics”. It has been translated by G.R. Josyer, director of the International Academy of Sanskrit research in Mysore, India. The translation, “Aeronautics, a Manuscript From the Prehistoric Past”, was published in book form by Coronation press, Mysore, in 1973.

*EGYPT

In 1898 a small 6 inch model plane, with fuselage, wings and tail, was discovered in a tomb near Saqqara, Egypt, It was dated to approximately 200 BC.

The model was sent to the Cairo Museum of Antiquities. Here it was catalogued as Special register No. 6347 Room 22, and then it was promptly forgotten. At the time of its discovery, modern aviation did not exist. Rediscovered in the museum’s storerooms in 1969, it was found to fly perfectly as a glider, though there are indications it may have originally possessed a propulsion mechanism at the tail. The design is highly sophisticated.
It has been claimed that the Egyptians never made a model of anything unless it was used in real life. At least 14 other model aircraft have been found in Egyptian tombs.

*S AMERICA

*Ancient models resembling modern jet planes have been discovered in tombs in Costa Rica, Venezuela and Colombia. They possess delta wings, engine housing, a cockpit, windshield, flanged tail and elevators. These models have passed aerodynamic tests. Some have two sets of wings.

These are displayed in the Field Museum of Natural History (Chicago), the Museum of Primitive Art (New York), the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History (Washington, D.C.) and in Bogota, Colombia.

evidence (http://www.archaeologyanswers.com/some_original.html)

more (http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_7.htm)

images (http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Ancient_Airpla.html)

While the all the talk about Vimanas in ancient texts, and the possibility exists that there may be advanced civilization that perished in a natural or artificial catastrophe - I still remain a skeptic for a simple reason.

We have been digging underground in most areas of the world and have not found anything hightech yet - not even in antartica.

On the otherhand because of that very reason, there is a better possibility that the vimana civilization may be out of this world and only the stories remain. It makes sense that if a small group of people settled on Earth, then there will not be any infrastruture to produce advanced vehicles and large machines and manufacturing capabilities. All one needs is a method of transportation between the planets. And if Earth was an outpost, then there would be minimal hightech equipment which could easily have degraded by now. If such is the case, we may have to search areas where civilization began - like the river banks of India and dig for archelogical evidence of any gadgets....

If not, we may have to wait for a few hundred years when we do interstellar travel and find the place where it all began....Atlantis anyone? :D

Let it go. There were no planes in India or Egypt or anywhere. If there were planes then there should have been some solid evidence except the pictures on the wall. ;)

like what?

We have been digging underground in most areas of the world and have not found anything hightech yet - not even in antartica.
We dont know the exact age of the period.Some say somethings,some say something else.If we perhaps know the exact age of the Empires,we could then perhaps start Digging.

I dont quite agree on Alien Technology at work.We all are aware of Ashoka's 9 secret men who had created a stirr by making complex machines beyond the comprehension of common.Ancient-India has always been strong in Maths and Astronomy,(remember Velocity of Light?).Aliens,UFOs are just stories.In this case the whole India echoes the stories of Epics which have extreme details giving the sense of being real.Plus accurate records...


The big question is: how is this information useful to us?

How can we possibly use the above information to our benefit?When will the moment of exact evidence with something concrete come?we are yet to know.

~~Zion
bye!

Is there some reference material on how Hydrogen used to get seperated from water? I read it about usage of Hydrogen in ancient aeroplane in this site. It has been mentioned that there is an elaborate discussion about Hydrogen in Rig Ved. How do I get more information?

I would like some direct quotes and sources please for the detailed scientific instructions for using electricity to extract hydrogen from water and the other outlandish claims.

I'm not saying they aren't there, just that I want to see them, and compare them with translations I have.

I have come across more than a few web pages that exaggerate and contrive meanings into ancient Indian texts and pass it off as fact and/or a direct translation.

Some sites report some fantastical claims, yet does not back them up with direct quotes.
MANY of them simply read these loose translations and extrapolations, and rather than research them, simply re-state what was said and sometimes even get THAT wrong.
Most of them do not quote their sources, so it is nearly impossible to verify their claims.
Trying to research ancient Indian documents on the web is akin to trying to track down the source of a chinese whisper.

This site (http://www.indpride.com/The%20Indian%20Science%20Of%20Aeronautics.html) for example, says:

The Rig Veda, the oldest document of the human race includes references to the following modes of transportation: Jalayan - a vehicle designed to operate in air and water (Rig Veda 6.58.3); Kaara- Kaara- Kaara- a vehicle that operates on ground and in water. (Rig Veda 9.14.1); Tritala- Tritala- Tritala- a vehicle consisting of three stories. (Rig Veda 3.14.1); Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - a three-wheeled vehicle designed to operate in the air. (Rig Veda 4.36.1); Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- a gas or wind-powered chariot. (Rig Veda 5.41.6); Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- a vehicle that operates on power. (Rig Veda 3.14.1).

Ancient Sanskrit literature is full of descriptions of flying machines - Vimanas. From the many documents found it is evident that the scientist-sages Agastya and Bharadwaja had developed the lore of aircraft construction.

The "Agastya Samhita" gives us Agastya's descriptions of two types of aeroplanes. The first is a "chchatra" (umbrella or balloon) to be filled with hydrogen. The process of extracting hydrogen from water is described in elaborate detail and the use of electricity in achieving this is clearly stated. This was stated to be a primitive type of plane, useful only for escaping from a fort when the enemy had set fire to the jungle all around. Hence the name "Agniyana". The second type of aircraft mentioned is somewhat on the lines of the parachute. It could be opened and shut by operating chords. This aircraft has been described as "vimanadvigunam" i.e. of a lower order than the regular aeroplane.
Hey, wait...
That sounds awfully familiar!
Where have I seen that before?

Then you have to call the original translations themselves into serious scrutiny.
There are many different translations of the ancient Indian texts.
Some of them are quite obviously not literal (they rhyme in English) and the translators have taken quite a few liberties with the text.

I'm curious, kmuguru...
Have you researched these claims at all, or simply quoted someone else's web page blindly assuming they are both correct and truthful without looking any further on your own?

If you have done research on your own, please share specifically (including citing book, chapter, verse and translator) what you have found.
If you haven't, please try and cite your source in the future so WE can.

The airplane was discovered (for certain) in 1905. By 1918, it had changed history. If it was discovered earlier, how come it did not even impact history one little bit back then? What would the impact on warfare centuries ago have been from just a few clumsy aircraft?

Hans

I do not think one will find detail technical manual as to how to build advanced devices in any Vedas or ancient Indian text. The reasoning is that even if there was an advanced civilization comparable to today existed then - it has been documented in Ramayan and Mahabharat that great wars took place and based on certain descriptions, nuclear, neutron and other advanced weapons were used. So, after the world war, when mankind went back to the stone age - for a long perioid of time, there was no records written down. The information was passed on via human memory and speech.

After many generations, it is impossible to pass on detail technical knowledge of such devices. Try doing that with your kids about the detail design of the computer or LCD screen or microchip.

Unless we unearth some advanced devices, circuit boards, nano technology etc from a time capsule - here or on moon, we may not get anywhere....but fun to speculate.

Dear Sir


Would you be so kind as to assist me in finding the following book;

“Aeronautics, a Manuscript From the Prehistoric Past”, was published in book form by Coronation press, Mysore, in 1973.


You mention an except from this document in your post but I cannot find any reference source or bookseller that has knowledge of it. Thank you.

might be a match (http://bagchee.com/BookDisplay.aspx?Bkid=B14245)

Few URLs that might be of interest to people who are reading this thread,

http://ebusiness.ada.gov.in/library/library/VymanikaShastra1.htm

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-09a-05.asp

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-10-05.asp

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-06a-05.asp

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_7.htm

UFOs and Vimanas - May be some automated systems are left behind with a few 5000 year hybernation chambers with people of the past from the remnants of Mahabharat War? This thread is not the place to talk about it - anyone wants to start a new thread in pseudoscience, go ahead. :D

it has been documented in Ramayan and Mahabharat that great wars took place and based on certain descriptions, nuclear, neutron and other advanced weapons were used. So, after the world war, when mankind went back to the stone age - for a long perioid of time, there was no records written down. The information was passed on via human memory and speech.

Total bunk. Perhaps you wouldn't mind quoting the exact passages that demonstrate what you're claiming. Otherwise, it makes for a good episode of Stargate.

"This is a speculation only.." and "but fun to speculate."

Disregard my post above then. That's what I get for looking at the ends of threads...

But I noted in your opening post of this thread that you cited the Rig Veda as being "the oldest document of the human race."

Rig Veda dates to about 1500 BCE at the earliest, 1200 or so BCE at the latest.

Sumerian texts go back almost 2 millenia more. There are cunieform tablets of the Jemdet Nasr period of around 3000 BCE. Even Hammurabi's Law Code dates to around 1750 BCE and the Epic of Gilgamesh to around 2000 BCE. Both older than the Rig Veda.

Now the Indus Script of the Indus Valley civilization is an old script, if, indeed, it turns out to actually be a script. It dates to around 3200 BCE, when earliest hieroglyphs were being etched in Mesopotamia and Egypt, and developed more or less in parrallel to the Near Eastern writings as they emerged into cunieform.

Rig Veda as being "the oldest document of the human race."

You got me there...I should have qualified that with a "oldest living document". And talking about Sumerian Civilization at 3000BCE, so is Indus Valley Civilization at 4500 to 5000 BCE (www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/ History/Ancient/Indus2.html), I am sure they can easily compete with the technology of that time - just as in a very few short years, India is competeing well in Computer Science. Over next 5000 years, a few years would not matter, which one is the oldest - it is more like splitting hair....

I suppose not all of us can speculate - it does take talent...:D

You got me there...I should have qualified that with a "oldest living document".

Indeed. I would certainly agree with that.


And talking about Sumerian Civilization at 3000BCE, so is Indus Valley Civilization at 4500 to 5000 BCE

Actually, I was only comparing the two cultures' writing technologies. I believe there were civilizations in place in each of the two regions at roughly the same period, there are cities in Mesopotamia that can be dated back at least as far. The earliest signs of agriculture appear along the Levant around places like Abu Harayra in the 6th millenium BCE.

I find the trade practices that occurred between the Fertile Crescent region and the Indus Valley to be most interesting. Many of the cities of the Indus Valley are named in Mesopotamian tablets, such as Meluhha, a Harrapan culture that appeared to supply woods like ebony, gold lapis, and ivory.


I suppose not all of us can speculate - it does take talent...:D

I admit, I have a difficult time with speculation... :)

I find the trade practices that occurred between the Fertile Crescent region and the Indus Valley to be most interesting. Many of the cities of the Indus Valley are named in Mesopotamian tablets, such as Meluhha, a Harrapan culture that appeared to supply woods like ebony, gold lapis, and ivory.

I agree. I am thinking, there is no way people will remain isolated in one region and not go to another region connected by land over a hundred years span. Meaning, if a civilization sprang up in the west, then a comparable civilization will spring up in the near east and perhaps in China and Burma too - in short order.

Even Cambodia had connections through sea lanes long ago and perhaps, South America....

New research coming from India suggests that there are language similarities between Tamil and European Languages. When I have time, I could collect and post a few...There is a lot we do not know about the Dravidian culture then, which was perhaps the original Indus culture...

hey, the indian institute of metals has developed alloys based on vymanika shastra formulae.

What does the alloy do? The properties and how that compares to the modern western formulation.

New research coming from India suggests that there are language similarities between Tamil and European Languages. When I have time, I could collect and post a few...There is a lot we do not know about the Dravidian culture then, which was perhaps the original Indus culture...

http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/dravdict.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4737/dravid1.html

http://www.datanumeric.com/dravidian/page001.html

Total bunk. Perhaps you wouldn't mind quoting the exact passages that demonstrate what you're claiming. Otherwise, it makes for a good episode of Stargate.


"Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashesthe entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas." - The Mahabharat (Mausala Purva)

I think that's what's he's talking about...

Amazing, how could they have known about objects used as projectiles, or lightning, or power, fire and smoke? Weren't they cow worshipping cave people that couldn't even put together a decent vindaloo till the 19th century?

The early hindus thought of alot of interesting things with the help of Soma, whatever that is, probably some kind of mushroom. But thinking fanciful thoughts and having existing technology are very different things.

...

As I highlighted, the vehicle is your mind. These are psychedelic parables, not to be taken literally. Indeed, when taken literally, they lose all their intended meaning.


On this I'd like to mention that "Soma" was also possibly "your mind," as opposed to the traditional mushroom idea... If there's something I think we can all agree on about ancient india, is that those guys could do some funky things with their brains...

Gopi Krishna says this about soma in one of his books, by the way, not just me speculating. [He claims to have had a kundalini awakening himself, his description of it could be considered somewhat psychedelic.]

Amazing, how could they have known about objects used as projectiles, or lightning, or power, fire and smoke? Weren't they cow worshipping cave people that couldn't even put together a decent vindaloo till the 19th century?

Debatable really. It is hard to believe though,But speed of light was exactly calculated looong before Newton did his stupid lantern experiment from mountain. I have a thread here describing that.

But the big point is that whats usefulness of such stuff? we are living in a period where knowledge like this can only help if it has specifics. All the stuff that has been written has filtered and re-written down the ages. all interpreted in other ways. I mean Kamasutra has 64 positions, but imagine this : the original kamasutra had 6000 chapters and more than 2000 positions described (i am not intending on a detour, in case you"re wondering). So naturally, what we are seeing is only partial truth...

And skinwalker, i the passage is there in mahabharat as it was rightly pointed out by someone here on the board.What that means is to be taken with a pinch of salt really; as even if the knowledge existed long time back, the usefull ness of such things matter the most, rather than vague debates about their actual existance. I mean we could argue achillies, we could argue about Zeus (which apparently is god of sun and is mentioned promptly in all hindu texts as well)...so...

Hey, if you want real scriptural evidence of Vimanas (or flying machines). You should reaad the Vymannika Shastra (the Science of Aeronautics) which you can now read online http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/vs/index.htm .

Its obvious that this was meant as a real-life manually, as it talks about food to eat while flying, clothes to wear, metals used to build Vimanas, etc.... It has details about yantras to construct and melting and heating. This Shastra only has enough details for one to construct Yantras to generate electricity and such, not enough to construct an entire Vimana (I think). But it is the most detailed text found on Vimanas to date.

This only increases the validity of Vimanas in the Mahabharata.

Probably 50,000 years ago this happened. Regardless, I believe the Rig Veda.

I think there were two types of Vimanas. One was moving through air and other in deep space. For moving through air, all you have to do is ionize the air and run current through it which can create a force if you have the magnetic field strong enough for the item to move in the air.

For deep space...I do not think any kind of standard propulsion will work no matter how much thrust...you have to punch through space using some unknown mechanism. One of these days, someone will figure out to create either sometype of gravitational or magnetic force.

I think there were two types of Vimanas. One was moving through air and other in deep space. For moving through air, all you have to do is ionize the air and run current through it which can create a force if you have the magnetic field strong enough for the item to move in the air.

For deep space...I do not think any kind of standard propulsion will work no matter how much thrust...you have to punch through space using some unknown mechanism. One of these days, someone will figure out to create either sometype of gravitational or magnetic force.

According to the Vymannika Shastra, "There are seven sources of power of the vimaana: fire, earth, air, sun, moon, water and sky. The seven kinds of powers are named udgamaa, panjaraa, solar heat absorber, alien force absorber, solar electric dozen, kuntinee, and primary force."

We already know of fire, water (hydro), air, sun (solar) power, but what do you think the earth, moon, and sky power could mean? Could earth mean mechanical, and moon mean magnetic? And what is this primary force it speaks of?

Primary forces are strong nuclear (gluon), weak nuclear(W+, W-, Z), electromagnetic (photon), gravity (graviton - tentative)

We pretty much know everything except gravity.

We have only scratched the surface of the use of electromagnetic force. I have an idea to generate massive power cheaply, but the experiement will cost perhaps $100 million dollars or more just to set it up. Most of the money will go to 512 high energy (Tesla) magnetic coils (basically a particle accelerator). I am talking to an African nation to use their miles of empty land, just in case we hit E=mc2 (Kaboom)

More stuff from India:

A glass-like material which cannot be detected by radar has been developed by Prof Dongre, a research scholar of Benaras Hindu University, based on technology found in an ancient Sanskrit text, Vaimanika Shastra. A plane coated with this unique material cannot be detected using radar.

Only a few years ago, the Chinese discovered some Sanskrit documents in Lhasa, Tibet and sent them to the University of Chandrigarh to be translated. Dr. Ruth Reyna of the university said that the documents contain directions for building interstellar spaceships! The Chinese announced that they were including certain parts of the documents for study in their space program.

Oh God, I hope they photocopied them and let the Tibetans keep the originals. The Chinese are still raping Tibet, are they not? We Westerners have all but completely ignored this. I hope the Tibetans are at least two steps ahead of them. I also hope that they find a way of putting it to the Chinese.

It's good to see that some are trying to find where the evidence leads rather than to limit themselves based on narrow modern criteria.

And thanks for posting links.

I came into this from a little different angle. While studying climate change effects on coastal urban communities, I created some maps that look ahead to 25 m or 75 m equilibrium sea level rise from 300 to 1,000 years into the future. But I also found where the sea shore had been in the past back to the last glacial maximum (and it has varied along the same swath of coast and submarine land during 30ish ice ages before that). It struck me that if we want to dig for a prehistoric city, most of the area to explore is currently underwater. Thus, you must dive (quite deep - almost 400 feet (125 m) - into the psychrosphere!) to reach the edge of the sea at times when ice approached maximum toward the end of ice ages. When an event occurred in the prehistoric past makes a big difference in how far out to sea you might look to find former coastal city evidence. Assuming that sea-level fall during the long buildup to a glacial maximum proceded as slowly as sea level rise has for us during the past 6000 years (until recently that is), it seems that any civilization building prior to 25,000 years ago would have found the world a very stable, pleasant place. Any sustainable settlements would have had a longer time to develop societies and technologies than "we" have had during the Holocene. It seems reasonable to expect that "higher" forms of human society and technology should have preceded our own. How much of this survived the worst of the ice age meltdown 17,000 to 6,000 years before present is unknown, but if persistent stories of UFOs happened throughout historic times, why couldn't these be explained by well-maintained ancient technology?

i wan't find it impossible of ancient civilisation that had the ideas and plans for modern inventions, but they just didnt apply it, so reasearches, and maybe they did, i wan't also find it impossible that some ancient lost civilisations, have developed many things, and ended up destroyed, and etc.. like many civilisations even in modern ancient times,

anyway, kmguru, can you provide us some links pleas? about that chinese scribtures and indian, and etc..?

however, UFOs? naah, why don't you say that aliens are who invented tv and built HAARP?
as for UFOs i think it's a myth, a modern myth, and if it exist, it's propably some kind of secret spying vehicle, nazies did built some UFOs, experimenting however, and if there was somehow "evidences" for ancient UFOs, propably unexplained phenomenon in the sky, and they thought it's, UFO or something, however i don't know any ancient UFOs, what i know is that it's a modern thing

i wan't find it impossible of ancient civilisation that had the ideas and plans for modern inventions, but they just didnt apply it, so reasearches, and maybe they did, i wan't also find it impossible that some ancient lost civilisations, have developed many things, and ended up destroyed, and etc.. like many civilisations even in modern ancient times,

anyway, kmguru, can you provide us some links pleas? about that chinese scribtures and indian, and etc..?

Shadow, to the best of your knowledge did any ancient civilization have a relatively decent working knowledge of the gasoline engine?

Because without it, the chances that they developed a way to power a plane is slim to none.

And I only say that there is a slim chance because they could conceivably have discovered and harnessed electrical power in the absence of oil, preferring maybe peat or coal. then charging a battery and running it as an electrical plane.

Which I will be the first to say that the idea of that happening is silly.

you see, the thing is shadow, that for any ancient civilization to be concidered significant enough to be contrasted with modern civilization I think the one prerequisite would be the ability to create steel. Chances are if anybody used steel to build anything it would be extremely easy to find such evidence even a few thousand years after they built it.

It's good to see that some are trying to find where the evidence leads rather than to limit themselves based on narrow modern criteria.

And thanks for posting links.

I came into this from a little different angle. While studying climate change effects on coastal urban communities, I created some maps that look ahead to 25 m or 75 m equilibrium sea level rise from 300 to 1,000 years into the future. But I also found where the sea shore had been in the past back to the last glacial maximum (and it has varied along the same swath of coast and submarine land during 30ish ice ages before that). It struck me that if we want to dig for a prehistoric city, most of the area to explore is currently underwater. Thus, you must dive (quite deep - almost 400 feet (125 m) - into the psychrosphere!) to reach the edge of the sea at times when ice approached maximum toward the end of ice ages. When an event occurred in the prehistoric past makes a big difference in how far out to sea you might look to find former coastal city evidence. Assuming that sea-level fall during the long buildup to a glacial maximum proceded as slowly as sea level rise has for us during the past 6000 years (until recently that is), it seems that any civilization building prior to 25,000 years ago would have found the world a very stable, pleasant place. Any sustainable settlements would have had a longer time to develop societies and technologies than "we" have had during the Holocene. It seems reasonable to expect that "higher" forms of human society and technology should have preceded our own. How much of this survived the worst of the ice age meltdown 17,000 to 6,000 years before present is unknown, but if persistent stories of UFOs happened throughout historic times, why couldn't these be explained by well-maintained ancient technology?

There is one hole in your theory.

The number one reason why you build a town around a body of water is for fresh water. You do not get that from the ocean.

Sure you can say "oh, but they must have used ports for trade."

Something tells me that they probably did not have that sort of commerce considering the simple questions of "what in G-d's name is worth that much that justifies such an expensive technological leap? Moreover, what currency would they even use?"

Besides the fact that your cute little hypothesis doesn't answer the question of "why is it that the plains cave men were gibbering idiots while the ones closer to the ocean built thriving metropoli."

Im having a difficult time imagining a cave man Einstein.

According to the Vymannika Shastra, "There are seven sources of power of the vimaana: fire, earth, air, sun, moon, water and sky. The seven kinds of powers are named udgamaa, panjaraa, solar heat absorber, alien force absorber, solar electric dozen, kuntinee, and primary force."

We already know of fire, water (hydro), air, sun (solar) power, but what do you think the earth, moon, and sky power could mean? Could earth mean mechanical, and moon mean magnetic? And what is this primary force it speaks of?

The primary force of our society. The most powerful force we know of in the universe.

Human stupidity.

Im having a difficult time imagining a cave man Einstein.
Ugh equals urgh bler squggled?

The one with the standard equation or the one with extra ones for added dimension?

The primary force of our society. The most powerful force we know of in the universe.

Human stupidity.

Human stupidity combined with selective knowledge are what makes people predictable, and one of the main reasons why things like Game Theory work.

The one with the standard equation or the one with extra ones for added dimension?

They ran out of chalk before they could get to other dimensions.

Do you know how much of a pain in the ass it is to write planks constant in chalk?;)

Shadow, to the best of your knowledge did any ancient civilization have a relatively decent working knowledge of the gasoline engine?

Because without it, the chances that they developed a way to power a plane is slim to none.

And I only say that there is a slim chance because they could conceivably have discovered and harnessed electrical power in the absence of oil, preferring maybe peat or coal. then charging a battery and running it as an electrical plane.

Which I will be the first to say that the idea of that happening is silly.

you see, the thing is shadow, that for any ancient civilization to be concidered significant enough to be contrasted with modern civilization I think the one prerequisite would be the ability to create steel. Chances are if anybody used steel to build anything it would be extremely easy to find such evidence even a few thousand years after they built it.

yes i think you're right, but, maybe, some made just paper drawings and plans, they didnt do it, but had the idea, but they can't do it, maybe they had ideas

Ugh equals urgh bler squggled?

If it was a Yorkshireman it would be:
Eeeh Lad equals bar gum squirred.

Did Indians invent the aeroplane before or after they invented the train?
Were Aunties involved?

yes i think you're right, but, maybe, some made just paper drawings and plans, they didnt do it, but had the idea, but they can't do it, maybe they had ideas

why would they understand that fire+water=steam and steam in an enclosed space creates high pressure?

If they did create drawings, it was nothing other then blind luck.

Did Indians invent the aeroplane before or after they invented the train?
Were Aunties involved?
They didn't need to invent the aeroplane: after all Superman was Indian and he could fly anyone anywhere.

That raises so many questions I'm not even gonna bother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNt63Pj2qV4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNt63Pj2qV4

Lol when he said runs faster than a speeding bullet and only one race of people who can do that, guess what I'm thinking :D It is an EXTREMELY well known stereotype...and there are A LOT of jokes about them...

I may be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't the scrap of text talking about the ancient mass destructive weapons, the text referenced earlier...wasn't it found to be a hoax? A forgery?

Having come into this debate late..

Having read page one..

I can only point readers to The first word learnt by indian children..

NO !!.. No no no no no !!.. With head wobble..

Followed up in later life by the absolute desire to have a Hi Vis vest and a clip board..

NO !!.. no no no no no...

What you must be doing is !!..

A pack of lazy know it all wonks..

The Indian word most understood by the world is.. Pyjama's..

Apart from that sloppy shit CURRY..

India is expected by most of the gurues to be ahead of China by 2025..

Hahahaaaa.. A country with 18 ( eighteen ) official languages .. No infrastructure.. Squillions of religions.. Millions of children begging daily on the streets..

This is all going to change in 25 years ??..

Yeah right ( Tui Ad ).. :-))

Certainly we can expect much greater advances in India in quarter of a century than we can in the value of adam2314's posts. Indeed, you seem quite unaware of the advances brought about in the last twenty five years in India.

Much as I really hate to say it, the important difference between India and China, that has made China able to so far completely outstrip India, in spite of starting from equally humble beginnings, is democracy. :(

Doing stuff is SO much easier when you don't need to ask the voters first.

In the long run, however, I hope and think that democracy will prevail, and that China will be forced to join. Totalitarian methods can only get you so far.

Hans

Lynn White, Jr., the unassumingly great historian of medieval technology (1907-1987), mentions in a monograph written in 1961 (http://glossaryhesperado.blogspot.com/2008/04/lynn-white-citation.html) probably the first person to attempt flight -- a Muslim who lived in Andalus (Islamic Spain) in the middle of the 9th century A.D. by the name of Ibn Firnas.

According to a Moroccan historian al-Maqqari (writing some 750 years later), White reports, Ibn Firnas “covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body, and, getting on an eminence, flung himself down into the air, when, according to the testimony of several trustworthy writers who witnessed the performance, he flew a considerable distance, as if he had been a bird, but, in alighting again on the place whence he had started, his back was very much hurt, for not knowing that birds when they alight come down upon their tails, he forgot to provide himself one.”

Over a century later, in 1010 A.D., the first Western man to attempt flight figures in the title of White’s study: Eilmer of Malmesbury, an abbot of course (most of the technological ferment of the early Middle Ages seemed to have bubbled up from the monasteries of Europe, and not only literally in the refinement of beer and wine fermentation).

True to his form, White goes on for the rest of his monograph charting in detail how it was Westerners par excellence who uniquely took the ideal of flight and really took off with it—literally and figuratively.

After centuries and centuries of patient and ingenious attempts to match the Western flight of the mind with a more literal flight, the first foothold in concrete success was achieved in the 19th century with the epiphany of a Pomeranian inventor, Otto Lilienthal: namely, that the obsession heretofore with aerostat balloons was not the way to progress toward faster and more effective flight, nor so much the mimicking of birds, but rather the aerodynamics of the kite. His epiphany immediately inspired the Wright brothers and their momentous departure from earth shortly after the fin du siècle of the 20th century. And the rest is, as they say, history: the history, that is, of the the better-known, stupendously marvelous career of the 20th century airplane, rocket, missile, helicopter, jets, satellites and space travel.

Why that early Islamic attempt at flight fizzled out, while Western attempts only increased in ingenuity until the West achieved what no other culture did in that technology, may have something to do with what the Moroccan historian al-Maqqari notes in his history: namely, that Ibn Firnas and his little project was frowned upon as "un-Islamic" exploration and so unworthy of being pursued when a good Muslim better should spend his time following the Sunna ever mindful of Allah and the 1,001 Dos and Don'ts of Allah's last and greatest Prophet, the "ideal man" (al-insan al-kamil) and "the best model for all mankind", Muhammad.

(Adapted from my essay, From Firnas to the Furnace of 911 (http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2008/04/from-firnas-to-911.html)).

Lynn White, Jr., the unassumingly great historian of medieval technology (1907-1987), mentions in a monograph written in 1961 (http://glossaryhesperado.blogspot.com/2008/04/lynn-white-citation.html) probably the first person to attempt flight -- a Muslim who lived in Andalus (Islamic Spain) in the middle of the 9th century A.D. by the name of Ibn Firnas.

According to a Moroccan historian al-Maqqari (writing some 750 years later), White reports, Ibn Firnas “covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body, and, getting on an eminence, flung himself down into the air, when, according to the testimony of several trustworthy writers who witnessed the performance, he flew a considerable distance, as if he had been a bird, but, in alighting again on the place whence he had started, his back was very much hurt, for not knowing that birds when they alight come down upon their tails, he forgot to provide himself one.”


Sounds like a fairy tale to me. A hang glider has about 150 sq ft to allow a person to not drop like a rock and basically be held aloft by upslope winds. So if we were to convert this to 3 foot wide wings this would mean that we would need a wing span of 50 ft. What possible material could be used in a ancient time to construct this. How could somebody possible maneuver (or even hold them up) something of that size and weight. So he took off flew around and landed with no tail and fifty foot wings.

You believe that story?:shrug:

so lets thank the chinese for the epiphanies and inspiration
here goes.....

we the white man, thank you, dear chineseman, for being an indispensable cog in the development of modern flight

Let it go. There were no planes in India or Egypt or anywhere. If there were planes then there should have been some solid evidence except the pictures on the wall. ;)

i hope this is a joke.. the models are pretty solid evidence.. when blown up to scale actually fly very far

Sounds like a fairy tale to me. A hang glider has about 150 sq ft to allow a person to not drop like a rock and basically be held aloft by upslope winds. So if we were to convert this to 3 foot wide wings this would mean that we would need a wing span of 50 ft. What possible material could be used in a ancient time to construct this. How could somebody possible maneuver (or even hold them up) something of that size and weight. So he took off flew around and landed with no tail and fifty foot wings.

You believe that story?:shrug:

Surely a person can hang-glide for a while after jumping off a high cliff, especially if the winds are right. That sounds like what Ibn Firnas did.

Surely a person can hang-glide for a while after jumping off a high cliff, especially if the winds are right. That sounds like what Ibn Firnas did.

No it doesn't - not even close.

i hope this is a joke.. the models are pretty solid evidence.. when blown up to scale actually fly very far

Sorry, but: Evidence? Which ancient plane models fly very far when scaled up, and who did such experiments?

I know one Egyptian bird model is reputed to have flown reasonably when hand-launched, but attempts to repeat that with a replica failed rather badly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqara_Bird

That said, birds have always been visible to people, and a reasonably well executed replica of a bird (including proper balancing and weight-matching) could indeed be flyable as a glider, without proving anything but that somebody could watch birds.

Hans

Sounds like a fairy tale to me. A hang glider has about 150 sq ft to allow a person to not drop like a rock and basically be held aloft by upslope winds. So if we were to convert this to 3 foot wide wings this would mean that we would need a wing span of 50 ft. What possible material could be used in a ancient time to construct this. How could somebody possible maneuver (or even hold them up) something of that size and weight. So he took off flew around and landed with no tail and fifty foot wings.

You believe that story?:shrug:Well, if we want to be charitable, in older days precise observation and reporting was prioritized way below a good story, so what might have happened is that he jumped off a cliff and managed enough lift to not get himself killed, as most trying that stunt have.

Obviously he could not have landed on the same level as he took off from and the account of the tail is nonsense; flying without some tail arrangement is indeed doubtful (although para-gliders do just that), but if his craft permitted him to fly, it would not have kept him from landing.

Hans

i hope this is a joke.. the models are pretty solid evidence.. when blown up to scale actually fly very farThat's ridiculous. You can't take a device that uses an airfoil for flotation and "blow it up" proportionally and expect it to float.

The mass of an object dictates how much force is needed to lift it, and mass is proportional to the cube of linear dimension. The surface area of the airfoil dictates how much force is available to lift it, and surface area is only proportional to the square of linear dimension.

So if you take any arbitrary flying object and expand it proportionally by, say, doubling its linear dimensions, you end up with an enlarged version that has eight times the original mass. However, the airfoils will only have four times their original area. The linear dimensions of the airfoils must be expanded by an additional 41.4% before they can provide the force necessary to support the mass.

If you multiply linear dimension by 10, you increase the weight by a factor of 1000, so you need to increase the linear dimensions of the wings by the square root of 1000, which is about 32.

This is why the largest birds like the 300lb/135kg ostrich can't fly. It would need something like a 90ft/27m wingspan. Even to glide on thermals it would need a significant fraction of that.

So anyone who claims that he "blew up" a tiny toy flying machine and got it to fly is just telling a tall tale.

That's ridiculous. You can't take a device that uses an airfoil for flotation and "blow it up" proportionally and expect it to float.

The mass of an object dictates how much force is needed to lift it, and mass is proportional to the cube of linear dimension. The surface area of the airfoil dictates how much force is available to lift it, and surface area is only proportional to the square of linear dimension.

So if you take any arbitrary flying object and expand it proportionally by, say, doubling its linear dimensions, you end up with an enlarged version that has eight times the original mass. However, the airfoils will only have four times their original area. The linear dimensions of the airfoils must be expanded by an additional 41.4% before they can provide the force necessary to support the mass.

If you multiply linear dimension by 10, you increase the weight by a factor of 1000, so you need to increase the linear dimensions of the wings by the square root of 1000, which is about 32.

This is why the largest birds like the 300lb/135kg ostrich can't fly. It would need something like a 90ft/27m wingspan. Even to glide on thermals it would need a significant fraction of that.

So anyone who claims that he "blew up" a tiny toy flying machine and got it to fly is just telling a tall tale.

Actually, I don't think sifreak21 quite knows what he is talking about, but to be fair, if what you have is a scale model, and you blow it back up to full size, presumably it can fly, if the original could.

Anyway, the problem is more complex than this, because speed is an important factor in creating lift, and speed doesn't scale. If you make a 100th scale model of a medium-sized jet liner, you get a model that is 45cm in wing-span and weighs 8kg. This will fly if you can launch it at some 300 knots! (160kts if you fitted flaps and slats.)

However, if you just throw it by hand, it will provide a very nice imitation of a brick.

This is the reason people making flying scale models have to make them very light.

Hans

, if what you have is a scale model, and you blow it back up to full size, presumably it can fly, if the original could.
Either you didn't read what Fraggle wrote, or you didn't understand it. Either way you are wrong. (To see why read and understand Fraggle's last post.)

India is expected by most of the gurues to be ahead of China by 2025..

Hahahaaaa.. A country with 18 ( eighteen ) official languages .. No infrastructure.. Squillions of religions.. Millions of children begging daily on the streets..

This is all going to change in 25 years ??..

Yeah right ( Tui Ad ).. :-))

Yes you may be right...but it is the Indian who taught the art of Industrial Ecosystem to the Chinese in early 80's...so there is room there...

Either you didn't read what Fraggle wrote, or you didn't understand it. Either way you are wrong. (To see why read and understand Fraggle's last post.)

Yes, I understood it. And I'm right: If you scale a scale model back to normal size, it will be flyable.

Hans

Actually, I don't think sifreak21 quite knows what he is talking about, but to be fair, if what you have is a scale model, and you blow it back up to full size, presumably it can fly, if the original could.Okay. But that wasn't how I read it. I thought they were flying toys, not non-flying scale models of workable vehicles.
Anyway, the problem is more complex than this, because speed is an important factor in creating lift, and speed doesn't scale. If you make a 100th scale model of a medium-sized jet liner, you get a model that is 45cm in wing-span and weighs 8kg. This will fly if you can launch it at some 300 knots! (160kts if you fitted flaps and slats.)So the model needs to be launched at approximately the same speed as the full-size prototype? Wow!
Either you didn't read what Fraggle wrote, or you didn't understand it.No, he's right. He is postulating that the Indians built a full size flying machine that actually worked. It has not survived, and all that has been passed down to us are small scale models. As he explained, these cannot fly. It's just the opposite of my scenario: the small one flies because it was designed to, but the blown-up model does not.

The point is, you've got three scenarios:The large one can fly but the small one cannot. The small one can fly but the large one cannot. Neither one can fly.It is not possible for both to fly.

The point is, you've got three scenarios:The large one can fly but the small one cannot. The small one can fly but the large one cannot. Neither one can fly.It is not possible for both to fly.

That is basically correct. If you make a scale model very light, it may still fly

However, I assume the claim is that they represented full-size planes. After all, a flying toy is not that sensational. Flying toys may have existed at many times in the past, in various forms. We know of some (e.g. boomerangs).

Hans

Sorry, but: Evidence? Which ancient plane models fly very far when scaled up, and who did such experiments?

I know one Egyptian bird model is reputed to have flown reasonably when hand-launched, but attempts to repeat that with a replica failed rather badly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqara_Bird

That said, birds have always been visible to people, and a reasonably well executed replica of a bird (including proper balancing and weight-matching) could indeed be flyable as a glider, without proving anything but that somebody could watch birds.

Hans

i believe it was myth busters that did it and it flew quite far dont quote me it was on tv.. here coems the dont believe everything you see on tv. ..

the plane had a tail fin.. if it was moced after birds can u show me a bird with a tail fin?

That's ridiculous. You can't take a device that uses an airfoil for flotation and "blow it up" proportionally and expect it to float.

The mass of an object dictates how much force is needed to lift it, and mass is proportional to the cube of linear dimension. The surface area of the airfoil dictates how much force is available to lift it, and surface area is only proportional to the square of linear dimension.

So if you take any arbitrary flying object and expand it proportionally by, say, doubling its linear dimensions, you end up with an enlarged version that has eight times the original mass. However, the airfoils will only have four times their original area. The linear dimensions of the airfoils must be expanded by an additional 41.4% before they can provide the force necessary to support the mass.

If you multiply linear dimension by 10, you increase the weight by a factor of 1000, so you need to increase the linear dimensions of the wings by the square root of 1000, which is about 32.

This is why the largest birds like the 300lb/135kg ostrich can't fly. It would need something like a 90ft/27m wingspan. Even to glide on thermals it would need a significant fraction of that.

So anyone who claims that he "blew up" a tiny toy flying machine and got it to fly is just telling a tall tale.

should have added proportional in there since u added flotation in there which is completely different a concrete boat will float if its made right

like the unbelievazble vymanika sastra, another sastra of the ancient times called as vedic agriculture ahs been developed for large scale organic farming. this method uses the so called most toxic effluents into high quality resideu food .
this is also unbeleivably true.
is any one interested.

You mean animal waste as fertilizer?

like the unbelievazble vymanika sastra, another sastra of the ancient times called as vedic agriculture ahs been developed for large scale organic farming. this method uses the so called most toxic effluents into high quality resideu food .
this is also unbeleivably true.
is any one interested.

The Chinese and others, have been using animal AND human excrement as feriliser for over 4000 years, and possibly much longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers_of_Forty_Centuries

Forgive me if this has already been said, but was not the 6th book (book of gravitation) said to contain blue blueprints for the construction of Vimana?

Forgive me if this has already been said, but was not the 6th book (book of gravitation) said to contain blue blueprints for the construction of Vimana?

What do you think about these stories and records of vimana's etc?

Do you think it possible that they knew something most our society does not?

What do you think about these stories and records of vimana's etc?

I think we should build a flying chariot based on the 6th book and all get in the chariot and push it off a cliff to test it. Sounds like a pretty freaking good idea, huh?


Do you think it possible that they knew something most our society does not?

I am sure that they 'knew' all kinds of stuff. I am also sure that there science would be considered backwards and primative compared to today.

What do you think about these stories and records of vimana's etc?

Do you think it possible that they knew something most our society does not?

Yes I find the idea most interesting, but I'd like to make a decision only from the evidence. Just because I find it an interesting idea is far different from just blindly believing it. One problem is the time scales mean that any evidence is going to be very limited and probarbly hidden away.

The question of knowledge though in general is I believe quite probarble as it is well documented that certain civilisations have been more technologically advanced than those that followed or sometimes came hundreds of years later. There has been documented evidence that the ancient greeks had mechanical clockwork technology. Archimedes invented a device that accurately tracked the movements of the then 5 known planets and the sun and moon.

I think at times it's like trying to work out what the picture of a jigsaw looks like with very very few of the peices.

I think we should build a flying chariot based on the 6th book and all get in the chariot and push it off a cliff to test it. Sounds like a pretty freaking good idea, huh?



I am sure that they 'knew' all kinds of stuff. I am also sure that there science would be considered backwards and primative compared to today.

You mean main stream/common science?

What do you think a mercury/iron engine is?

Yes I find the idea most interesting, but I'd like to make a decision only from the evidence. Just because I find it an interesting idea is far different from just blindly believing it. One problem is the time scales mean that any evidence is going to be very limited and probarbly hidden away.

The question of knowledge though in general is I believe quite probarble as it is well documented that certain civilisations have been more technologically advanced than those that followed or sometimes came hundreds of years later. There has been documented evidence that the ancient greeks had mechanical clockwork technology. Archimedes invented a device that accurately tracked the movements of the then 5 known planets and the sun and moon.

I think at times it's like trying to work out what the picture of a jigsaw looks like with very very few of the peices.

What do you think of modern sightings of UFO's, and I don't mean mistaken sightings?

Do you see any similarities between the old and the new?

I know it is getting away from the gliders and objects thought to work by aerodynamics,
the vimana machines are something else.

The people who built the statues on the Easter islands also talked about mana power, or the power from the earth.

Any idea of what they are saying?

Many people believe that the legends of Indian Emperor Asoka's secret society and the legends of the nine unknown men are based in truth. Just because it was written about in a fictional novel doesn't mean that there was no truth to it.

Many people believe that the legends of Indian Emperor Asoka's secret society and the legends of the nine unknown men are based in truth. Just because it was written about in a fictional novel doesn't mean that there was no truth to it.

I thought you may have come across info on the German projects under "The Order Of The Black Sun" and the influences out of India that helped them design modern "weightless flight craft."

I thought you may have come across info on the German projects under "The Order Of The Black Sun" and the influences out of India that helped them design modern "weightless flight craft."

No, but thx for the info I'll certainly look into it.