Here is a very good article on the charter and belief of Hamas, and Hezbullah and terrorism in general.


From the Magazine | World
Actually, the Middle East Is Our Crisis Too
The war is now part of the global conflict between the U.S. and radical Islam
By CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER
SUBSCRIBE TO TIMEPRINTE-MAILMORE BY AUTHOR

Posted Sunday, Jul. 30, 2006
Something radically new is emerging in the Middle East: the century-old Arab-Israeli dispute has been transmuted from a nationalist to a religious war. And as a result, the Arab-Israeli wars are now merging into the global conflict between radical Islam and the West.

The transformation was swift in coming. Hamas' electoral landslide in Palestine just six months ago marked the political death of Yasser Arafat and the secular, vaguely socialist and entirely nationalist movement he represented. Hamas is fighting not to create a 23rd Arab state but, as its charter explains, to recover "an Islamic Waqf." Meaning? Territory claimed under the Islamic precept that "any land the Muslims have conquered by force ... during the times of [Islamic] conquests" more than a millennium ago belongs to Muslims forever because "the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations until the Day of Judgment."

In the first period of the Arab-Israeli dispute, Israel was at war with pan-Arabism, the idea of essential Arab unity across states and the rejection of any non-Arab state in their region. Pan-Arabism was humiliated by Israel's six-day victory in the 1967 war. The subsequent death of Egyptian President Nasser, who instigated that disaster, accelerated pan-Arabism's decline. Its final collapse occurred when its last great proponent, Saddam Hussein, was swept away in 2003. The successor Arab rulers no longer dream of a single Arab state and have grudgingly come to accept a small Jewish state in part of Palestine. Hence the peace treaties that Egypt and Jordan signed with Israel.

As pan-Arabism declined, pan-Islamism rose in its place. Hence Islamist Hizballah--client of Islamist Iran, ally of Islamist Hamas--provokes a war with Israel. Hizballah's motivation has nothing to do with Arab nationalism. Israel withdrew from every square meter of Lebanese territory six years ago. But legal obligation means nothing to Hizballah. Like Hamas and Iran, Hizballah views the destruction of Israel as a religious obligation.

Moreover, Hizballah times its attack on Israel to suit the needs of its Iranian patron, about to be subject to sanctions by the West for its nuclear ambitions. Those ambitions, in turn, are meant to serve Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's even larger Islamist vision of a cataclysmic showdown with the infidel West as a harbinger of the return of the 12th Imam and the End of Days.

But it gets more complicated still. The Iran-Hizballah-Hamas axis is not the only church of Islamism. Enter Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda's No. 2, rushing to keep up with the mob, the mob that is now scandalously led by Persian and Shi'ite Iran. On behalf of Sunni and Arab al-Qaeda--just yesterday the champion of all things radically Muslim and anti-Western--al-Zawahiri last week issued a call for all Muslims to rise up against Israel.

Now Palestine was never at the top of al-Qaeda's list of grievances. In al-Qaeda's 1998 declaration of war on the U.S., Palestine is a distant third. But with Iran, through Hamas and Hizballah, having seized leadership of the jihad against the Jews, al-Qaeda could not stand by and allow its Islamist primacy to be eclipsed by the mullahs of Tehran.

Page 1 of 2 1 | 2 Next >>
From the Aug. 7, 2006 issue of TIME magazine

just use a link. it saves dave money in the longrun.

But then it gives you no excuse for not reading the article.

i read everything. always do.
use links, its stupid not to.

Nwtrt

And we destroyed the best check on Iranian power, Iraq.

spidergoat:

The Hezbollah is purported to have more than 15,000 rockets; so why have they stopped firing them?

It seems to me they are drawing the Israeli army into Lebanon, for an ambush perhaps?

What do you think?

I don't know that they have. One obvious thing is the possibility of determining launching points of these rockets for subsequent airstrikes. These rockets aren't very good for real combat, just terrorism. One of them landed just 500m from my aunt's house. Israel is going into Lebanon, and they might be ambushed often, but that will be anticipated.

Here is a very good article on the charter and belief of Hamas, and Hezbullah and terrorism in general.
And as a result, the Arab-Israeli wars are now merging into the global conflict between radical Islam and the West.
No this is wrong Israel more a threat to us in the West .
Israeli professor says we could destroy all European capitals (http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/1569463.php)
(IAP News) -- An Israeli professor and military historian hinted that Israel could avenge the holocaust by annihilating millions of Germans and other Europeans.Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons.
These are the Jewish nuts that could and would .
Same as Israel is stealing US military technology and selling it to China :
China Purchased US Spy Plane Technology from Israel (http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/6/11/3145/97664)
According to The Times report, it appears the spy technology the Chinese technicians were experimenting with was American-made, and they acquired it through Israel.
The West has pro-Western capitalist enclaves such as Dubai and Saudi Arabia and nations such as Egypt and Turkey which are pro West of note to is Irans co-operation with the West over Israels unprovoked attack on another pro western enclave Lebanon by the FM,s of France and Iran meeting in Beirut the other day.

Also they could be running out of rockets, the Israelis have been beating the crap out of them, also the fact that this type of rocket would have little use in a ambush sutuation, they are designed for area bombardment, and even then they are more of a harassment than a real danger to troops.

I doubt Israel is beating the crap out of them.

They claimed to do that in bint Jbael but the CNN crew found no evidence of any fighting or shooting only of Israeli missiles. Not a single bullet.

Here is an analysis by Jonathan Cook from anti-war.com

Five Myths that sanction Israeli War Crimes

The first myth is that Israel was forced to pound Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began "raining down" rockets on the Galilee.

The second myth is that Hezbollah's stockpile of 12,000 rockets – the Israeli army's estimate – poses an existential threat to Israel.

The third myth is that, while Israel is trying to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah prefers to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

The fourth myth is a continuation of the third: Hezbollah has been endangering the lives of ordinary Lebanese by hiding among noncombatants.

And finally, there is a fifth myth I almost forgot to mention.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9407

Brian,
Professor Martin Van Creveld is a reputable scholar and you are taking his words out of context.

Is this true?


Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

Smart move.

“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”

What Israel does is down right criminal. It's the western thought. First opress a people. Beat them down. Try to take away there humanity. Then when they fight back Israel plays the victim. It worked so well with America and it's slaves.

But it would seem that they would have learned there lesson by now. Already the temple has been destroyed twice. I await the 3rd and final destruction because it seems that these are a people who will not learn. It seems that everything that is written about them is written from a position of knowledge. They are the mischief makers yet they perceive not...

Its not the temple or mosque that's important, it's the devaluation of innocent lives.

I agree , it a myth

The first myth is that Israel was forced to pound Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began "raining down" rockets on the Galilee.

No Israel, started pounding Hezbullah because they kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers and killed 6 more.

The second myth is that Hezbollah's stockpile of 12,000 rockets – the Israeli army's estimate – poses an existential threat to Israel.

Wouldn't you call high powered rocket raining down on your cities, killing your civilians a threat?

The third myth is that, while Israel is trying to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah prefers to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

There is enough film of rocket launchers being driven into civilian housing , into underground garages, that seem to have been made just to do that, and there is enough UMAD video showing these same rocket launching rocket from right next to civilian housing, deny that.

The fourth myth is a continuation of the third: Hezbollah has been endangering the lives of ordinary Lebanese by hiding among noncombatants.

How do you explained the pictures from the Herald Sun, they show the hezbullah fighters in civilian dress, and again there are more than enough videos and pictures showing Hezbullah firing from population centers , in the vicinity of schools, hospitals and civilian housings projects.

And finally, there is a fifth myth I almost forgot to mention. That people like David Horowitz only want to tell us the truth…

And as for your last point do you know David Horowitz personally that you can back up this statement

Brian,
Professor Martin Van Creveld is a reputable scholar and you are taking his words out of context.
Im not taking his words out of context , those were the words he spoke , it seems to me what he intended to say was a warning . If the tables were turned and this was an Iranian professor speaking you could well imagine the concern such comments make . Israel and the Jews who support Israel are a particular paranoid bunch , from the Holocaust to Israel being annihilated . The plain fact is if you follow the news closely ,you will see evidence of this paranoia , like back to say the 27th of September 2001
Worried Israel feels spurned as the West courts Iran (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/26/wiran126.xml)
ISRAEL might have expected to be a major beneficiary of America's war on terrorism, winning further sympathy and support in its struggle with the Palestinians. Instead, as the campaign develops, it is feeling alarmed, isolated and not a little frightened.
And what freaked out these Israelis ?
Yet worse, while Israel is being held at arm's length, its arch-enemy Iran is being courted by America, using Britain as the go-between. A tongue-lashing from the Israelis is almost a rite of passage for any new foreign secretary.
And why ?
Yet here is the nation the mullahs call the "Great Satan" cosying up to possibly the world's biggest sponsor of international terrorism. The realisation is dawning that many apparent certainties were shattered on September 11. Among them, Israelis fear, is the notion that Israel will always have a privileged place at the heart of American foreign policy making.
Israel is a totally unimportant nation within the mideast , Israel does not function economically within this regions economy , its existence is not recognised and its dissappearance would not affect the regions economy and would actually benfit the region . Israel exists totally on the protection of its foreign benefactors and military aid as such its survival depends on the whim of its protectors .

This makes Israel completely vulnerable and such a future threat to the West because of its atomic arsenal . I dont trust Israel anymore than I do Iran I fiond both nations theological states repulsive and repugnant . I simply cannot understand your selective bias towards Israel and your enthusiastic defence of Israel as opposed to your willingness to criticize Arab nations .

No intelligent life signs here.

Im not taking his words out of context , those were the words he spoke , it seems to me what he intended to say was a warning .
I doubt you have even read his seminal work, The Transformation of War. or this (http://www.forward.com/articles/6936)...
For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president's men. If convicted, they'll have plenty of time to mull over their sins.

or this, which comes from the same interview you quoted...
Interviewer: This isn't your own position, is it?

Creveld: Of course not. You asked me what might happen and I've laid it out. The only question is whether it is already too late for the other solution, which I support, and whether Israeli public opinion can still be convinced. I think it's too late. With each passing day the expulsion of the Palestinians grows more probable. The alternative would be the total annihilation and disintegration of Israel. What do you expect from us?

Israel is fighting for it's life, and unlike our adventures in Iraq, there actually is a very real threat right across their borders.

Israel is a totally unimportant nation within the mideast , Israel does not function economically within this regions economy , its existence is not recognised and its dissappearance would not affect the regions economy and would actually benfit the region . Israel exists totally on the protection of its foreign benefactors and military aid as such its survival depends on the whim of its protectors .
False on all counts. It's existence is recognized internationally, it is a major economic force in the region, (which is why many Palestinians work there), and it isn't just a puppet of foriegn masters (which are supposedly in turn controlled by the Jewish lobby and media). That's a paranoid and delusional outlook matched only by the Protocols of Zion themselves.

I doubt you have even read his seminal work, The Transformation of War. or this (http://www.forward.com/articles/6936)...
Cant you read a full article ?
This maniac professor wants a more proactive President in power , if you read the paragragh before the one you quoted :
Such an endeavor, one would hope, will be handled by a team different from — and more competent than — the one presently in charge of the White House and Pentagon.
The article he writes endorses the fucking US war , he stipulates :
Yet a complete American withdrawal is not an option; the region, with its vast oil reserves, is simply too important for that. A continued military presence, made up of air, sea and a moderate number of ground forces, will be needed.
Then the Zionist war mongerer carries on with his tangent against Iran ;
First and foremost, such a presence will be needed to counter Iran, which for two decades now has seen the United States as "the Great Satan." Tehran is certain to emerge as the biggest winner from the war — a winner that in the not too distant future is likely to add nuclear warheads to the missiles it already has. In the past, Tehran has often threatened the Gulf States. Now that Iraq is gone, it is hard to see how anybody except the United States can keep the Gulf States, and their oil, out of the mullahs' clutches.
Then the final act of this racists paranoia .
A continued American military presence will be needed also, because a divided, chaotic, government-less Iraq is very likely to become a hornets' nest. From it, a hundred mini-Zarqawis will spread all over the Middle East, conducting acts of sabotage and seeking to overthrow governments in Allah's name.
or this, which comes from the same interview you quoted...
Interviewer: This isn't your own position, is it?
Yeah precisely this isnt just his own view its shared by most of Israel . And even more telling of this racist lunatics belief is this gem from the quote you provided :With each passing day the expulsion of the Palestinians grows more probable. Christ the mans a fucking Nazi .
Israel is fighting for it's life, and unlike our adventures in Iraq, there actually is a very real threat right across their borders.
What a few thousand Hezbollah fighters with shortranged rockets against the nuclear armed IDF , yeah sure a real threat .
False on all counts. It's existence is recognized internationally,
A hang over from the sympathy of the holacaust but not for long .
it is a major economic force in the region, (which is why many Palestinians work there),
No its not , Israel relies on unfettered access to the US and German markets through freetrade deals and US econmic assistance . The region has Israel under an economic boycott (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19770401faessay9817/nancy-turck/the-middle-east-the-arab-boycott-of-israel.html) and as such Israel is not an economic player in the mideast economy and any removal of Israel would not affect the regions economy .
and it isn't just a puppet of foriegn masters (which are supposedly in turn controlled by the Jewish lobby and media).
Yes it is , as long as Israel survives on American protection that is precisely what it is , a nation that can be left to the wolves over night , and once America has dissappeared from the region and Europe takes over the mideast , that is what is instore for Israel . Europe has no major Jewish lobby like America and The EU is more with Iran as evidence by the meetings with the FMs of both .
That's a paranoid and delusional outlook matched only by the Protocols of Zion themselves.
You have just proven to me , that it is not religion with you as you have claimed to me before , but simply a case that you are a zionist defender . You will find fault , no matter what the circumstance , with the Arab nations . You are biased toward Israel , and defending this paranoid racist/zionist professor proves that . And introducing the Protocols of Zion here , means you are implying that I as a critic of Israel , therefore my argument is Anti-Semitic a common paranoid tactic .

how can he not be biased toward israel? his relatives live there.

how can he not be biased toward israel? his relatives live there.
I am beginning to suspect this spidergoat is Jewish with Israeli relatives , his defence of Israel is incredibly over the top .

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51741

Spidergoat: Vincent, you're nuts. I'm Jewish, and much of the family from Poland died in the holocaust, and I had a German girlfriend, met her parents, they met mine, visited there twice, hung out with German friends, learned some German. By far the majority of them are not Nazis, not even the soldiers who fought in WWII.

(your pecker knows no bigotry)

Yes.

- N

Its not the temple or mosque that's important, it's the devaluation of innocent lives.

True - but I like shaking the tree. Give me a chain saw and I'll cut the tree from the root.

I agree , it a myth





How do you explained the pictures from the Herald Sun, they show the hezbullah fighters in civilian dress, and again there are more than enough videos and pictures showing Hezbullah firing from population centers , in the vicinity of schools, hospitals and civilian housings projects.



BVuffalo, you ok?

i have checked out that herald sun, and all they had was some guys with an anti tank gun, which you would probably need to defend the towns and are a defensive weapon anyway and another dude witha gun on top of a hill overlooking a village

or perhaps i missed something

Zakaryia, the gun was a anti aircraft gun, just for information purpose, and that may be true, but when they open fire on a attacking jet going after a Katushia, and end up being killed by suppressive fires, and the truck move off what do you have left? a civilian killed by the evil Israeli, how many of the Hezbullah fighters have been listed as poor civilians, killed by the horrible Israelis, I don't know my self, and you don't know yourself, but from these type of pictures, I know that it is happening.

Zakaryia, the gun was a anti aircraft gun, just for information purpose, and that may be true, but when they open fire on a attacking jet going after a Katushia, and end up being killed by suppressive fires, and the truck move off what do you have left? a civilian killed by the evil Israeli, how many of the Hezbullah fighters have been listed as poor civilians, killed by the horrible Israelis, I don't know my self, and you don't know yourself, but from these type of pictures, I know that it is happening.

So if an enemy state is using aerial missiles, the people are not justified in defending ithemselves? After all its a very small country (10,452 sq km (4036 sq mi); from north to south it extends 217 km (135 mi) and from east to west it spans 80 km (50 mi) at its widest point) so there cannot be very many vantage points which are available.

Then what is wrong in wearing a identifiable uniform, so that when you are killed you can be properly classified in the causalities lists, unless your purpose is to skew the numbers to make your opponent appear as a heartless killer of civilians, and from the satellite view that I looked up there appears to be plenty of open areas to conduct their operations in that would minimize civilian causalities.

Zakaryia, the gun was a anti aircraft gun, just for information purpose, and that may be true, but when they open fire on a attacking jet going after a Katushia, and end up being killed by suppressive fires, and the truck move off what do you have left? a civilian killed by the evil Israeli, how many of the Hezbullah fighters have been listed as poor civilians, killed by the horrible Israelis, I don't know my self, and you don't know yourself, but from these type of pictures, I know that it is happening.
yeah sorry Buiffalo, i meant antiaircraft gun, Dont know why i actually wrote antitank!!

Howa bout this view fo the situation. Israeli aircraft have been bombing Lebanese towns, bridges roads etc... since the early days of the conflict and just maybe hezbollah have moved some antiaircraft guns to try (admittedly in a rather vein attempt) to shoot a couople of the planes down.

i still hvae not seen any legitimate footing of katushas being fired from cvilian areas.

take care buffalo

Then what is wrong in wearing a identifiable uniform, so that when you are killed you can be properly classified in the causalities lists, unless your purpose is to skew the numbers to make your opponent appear as a heartless killer of civilians, and from the satellite view that I looked up there appears to be plenty of open areas to conduct their operations in that would minimize civilian causalities.
come on buffalo, please

this is all not so black and white

who the hell know the real truth anyway.

Then what is wrong in wearing a identifiable uniform, so that when you are killed you can be properly classified in the causalities lists, unless your purpose is to skew the numbers to make your opponent appear as a heartless killer of civilians, and from the satellite view that I looked up there appears to be plenty of open areas to conduct their operations in that would minimize civilian causalities.

5000 Hezbollah vs 138,000 Israelis?

Rocket launchers vs GBU-28s?

Rather unbalanced wouldn't you say?

And would you stand in an exposed area to conduct covert ops?

Are you sure you were in the military? :rolleyes:

Zakariya, I believe that Steve will confirm that the video from the RPV showing the Katushias firing from inside civilian areas are real, I have used the early forms of this type of reconnaissance and these videos follow what I experienced, and some of them are very clear as to what is happening, it kind of hard to misidentify a Missile or a Katushia launch, the signature is unmistakable.

Zakariya, I believe that Steve will confirm that the video from the RPV showing the Katushias firing from inside civilian areas are real, I have used the early forms of this type of reconnaissance and these videos follow what I experienced, and some of them are very clear as to what is happening, it kind of hard to misidentify a Missile or a Katushia launch, the signature is unmistakable.

Can you tell if the video is 2 days old, or 2 weeks old?
Can you tell if it is Qana or not?
Can you tell if any part of the video is doctored?

And don't you think the Israelis know that some of the people watching have experience with such videos?

covert ops? why would they need to conduct covert op if they are only being defensive, and by open areas I meant areas that didn't have heavy civilian populations, unbalanced?, that the enemies problem, not mine that they started something they weren't prepared for, and as a responsible commander I would not wait for them to become any stronger, it is a abiding principle of warfare that you want to hit the enemy when and were he is the weakest and least prepared, that is how you win, and Hezbullah didn't need to start this, what did they start this for, to trade for a man who shot a father in front of his daughter, so that would be the last thing see would see, and then executed her a 7 year old girl, Hezbullah started all this for this peace of shit.

covert ops? why would they need to conduct covert op if they are only being defensive, and by open areas I meant areas that didn't have heavy civilian populations, unbalanced?, that the enemies problem, not mine that they started something they weren't prepared for, and as a responsible commander I would not wait for them to become any stronger, it is a abiding principle of warfare that you want to hit the enemy when and were he is the weakest and least prepared, that is how you win, and Hezbullah didn't need to start this, what did they start this for, to trade for a man who shot a father in front of his daughter, so that would be the last thing see would see, and then executed her a 7 year old girl, Hezbullah started all this for this peace of shit.

what evidence is there that the areas were heavily populated or that the Hezbollahs were even there?

As for Kuntar, there are no angels on either side.
How many children have been crushed by the Israelis?

And the Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the border, according to Forbes.

The videos show that the Hezbullah is launching from civilian areas, it doesn't matter that I can't identify Quna specifically, the sites shown are from enough areas to confirm that it is being done, and unlike the Hezbullah propaganda machine the time marks follow a continuous time line, and the pictures aren't from years ago.

On the border not in Lebanon, doing a routine patrol, a security patrol, checking the border, and even the Killer of Innocent Children, the Hezbullah has admitted that they had kidnapped the soldiers, not captured, which would be correct if they were in Lebanon, for the purpose of trading them for select prisoners, and then miscalculated what the Israeli response.

Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah Visit the Site

(via nytimes.com) – “Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”... he added, “write that in your newspaper.” (5 days ago)

Channel: News | Tags: Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Middle East

Today is Wednesday, August 02, 2006 • Current Weather in New York, NY 95°F • Don't Believe Anything Else

A Lebanese Boy Learns To Fire A Kaytusha
Wednesday July 26th 2006, 8:40 am
Filed under: Politics, War

Amrak Heesan sat at a wood table eating oats soaked in goat’s milk. His son, Mokar, ten years old, sat with him eating a banana. The house was made of stone and had three rooms, the living area which contained all the kitchen equipment and a television set, as well as a bedroom and a bathroom. The house was on a hill in the Lebanese town of Khiam near the Lebanese border with the Golan Heights. Amrak’s wife, Seffe, had left Khiam two days before with Mokar’s sister, Juha. Juha was only four, so Seffe did not wish to wait for the Israelis to come. She was scared and wanted to find a safe haven for her daughter and herself, and she felt bad to leave Mokar behind. But Amrak was insistent. “Mokar was ten years old. He was old enough to hold a rocket. He must stay and fight,” said Amrak to his wife Seffe. So Seffe departed only with Juha in their green 1988 Toyota Celica. Seffee did not know where they were going to go. She did not wish to go to Syria. She had heard that those who went to Syria never came back. She wanted to stay in Lebanon, maybe close to the sea. Seffe told Amrak before she left that she would drive with Juha toward Tyre or Sidon and try to find one of her sisters. Amrak suggested further north; but further north was unfriendly to Shia, so she preferred to stay in the south.

Mokar looked at the battery-operated clock on the wall. It was four minutes to nine in the morning.

“It is almost time,” said Mokar.

“There is no reason to rush. There is plenty of time,” said Amrak to his son as he played with his oats, not really hungry.

Amrak had been suffering from stomach pains for the past few days, and they had become worse this morning. The departure of his wife and beautiful four-year old daughter, Juha, with jet black hair and light brown eyes, was like an ending to him. He did not think it would ever come to this. This war that was now raging. Of course, the whole town of Khiam had become a storage facility for weapons, including the nearly thousand Kaytusha rockets that came in weekly over the last five years by truck on roads from Syria.

Kaytushas were old Soviet rockets, and though they were tested every now and then, no one really knew if they were reliable. If you walked down the dirt and stone roads of Khiam on any day, you would not see one rocket except for maybe a pickup truck now and then with a pile of them in the back. But walk into anyone’s home in Khiam, and the entire living space was piled with Kaytushas. Everyone had a quota. Amrak’s house was big enough to hold fifty Kaytushas, and what was left of that fifty was lying behind where Mokar sat at the table eating his banana.

So with all the rockets piling up in the house, Amrak found it amusing that he never thought it would come to this. How could he think otherwise. The Kaytushas had become so much apart of everyone’s home, that they were used for all sorts of purposes. Lying five of them next to each other was a popular support for mattresses. Some had rigged them with electrical cords, placing a light bulb at the top and then a shade hanging on the bulb. This had become a popular lamp, so much so that a local electrician had made a sizeable business at retro-fitting the Kaytushas as standing lamps. Though this was frowned upon by the local authorities, even they had to laugh at the ingenuity of the Khiam residents.

This had all changed in the last two weeks. All the lamped Kaytushas had been reclaimed as rockets. And to the surprise of everyone, the Kaytushas were not only reliable, they all seemed to work as described by the Syrian engineers who came to instruct locals in how to fire them.

“I want to do it, Papa. Can we go now?” asked Mokar.

“I am not finished with my oats,” said Amrak.

This was to be Mokar’s first time firing a Kaytusha. In fact, two weeks ago was Amrak’s first time firing a Kaytusha. It was frightening how much noise the rocket made when it took off from the tripod stand. The air rumbled, hurting the ears. And one looked at the fire blast with caution as it got very bright, sending off sparks in all directions. But the rockets worked. They went up in into the air, heading for Israel like a javelin. It was a sight to see. At first, it had made all the Khiam men proud to se the rockets head up into the clouds. But the pride had been replaced with fear. The excitement was being passed down to the next generation.

Mokar was anxious and excited. He got up from the table and went over to the pile of Kaytushas behind him, which were piled up against the stone wall and held in place by four cinder blocks lying on the floor.

“Can I at least take one outside and get it ready?” asked Mokar.

“Yes. Yes. OK,” said Amrak.

Mokar picked up one of the Kaytushas. It was heavy for a ten-year old. He had to drag it, which is what he did, out the front wood door into the bright morning Lebanese sun.

Amrak’s stomach pain grew worse. He held his stomach. It disturbed Amrak that his son so easily could live with these rockets. Mokar picked them up and moved them around like a large toy. Amrak had always touched them with caution, never fully trusting them, never feeling comfortable. But Mokar had spent half his life with these rockets. The Kaytushas were part of his life; they had become part of his son’s culture.

The pain got worse. Amrak stood and walked to the window where he watched his son set up the Kaytusha outside the front of his house. He saw other sons setting up other rockets at other houses in the town of Khiam. All the sons were moving with excitement. And all the fathers watched from their living room windows.
Technorati Tags: Israel Kaytusha Khiam Lebanon Syria

Um, yeah, I care about my relatives living in peace in their country, but it's not a blanket excuse for everything Israel does.

Creveld is not a racist, he's an internationally recognized scholar in military history, and is required reading for all US military officers. He fears that creating peace in Israel means expelling all the Palestinians, and he may be right. Brian said himself that they will become a majority eventually, and that would threaten the existence of a Jewish homeland. Jews will not let that happen, so what other choice is there? They don't mean to kill them like the Nazis. After all, I think German or Polish Jews could have adjusted to expulsion, it's just the gassing and torturing that was so wrong. Creveld is right about Iraq, he's right to criticise Bush regarding Iraq, he's right about Iran, and he's right about Israel. Brian, It seems the consensus here is that you go over the top all the time, and you are in denial about the true aims of Islamic extremists. A few missiles fired every day at Israeli cities has a drastic effect on tourism and the the general ability of citizens to have a normal life.

Spidergoat, that depends on what you mean by destruction of Israel. Genocide, end of autonomy or what?

The first option would be very stupid (although humans are stupid...), because the Arab states are so much bigger (area and population) than Israel.

5000 Hezbollah vs 138,000 Israelis?

Is that the number mobilised?

Jews would not let themselves be victims of genocide again, not when they are so well armed, so the danger is in loss of self-determination, loss of a homeland for Jews, loss of their land, loss of everything that makes Israel Israel, which I sure would be fine with many Arabs.

Spidergoat, that depends on what you mean by destruction of Israel. Genocide, end of autonomy or what?

The first option would be very stupid (although humans are stupid...), because the Arab states are so much bigger (area and population) than Israel.



Is that the number mobilised?

Total Hezbollah militants and total Israeli army (CNN)

Today is Wednesday, August 02, 2006 • Current Weather in New York, NY 95°F • Don't Believe Anything Else

A Lebanese Boy Learns To Fire A Kaytusha
Wednesday July 26th 2006, 8:40 am
Filed under: Politics, War

False appeal to emotion; no facts in evidence.

Maybe Lifetime TV can use it.

Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah Visit the Site

(via nytimes.com) – “Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”... he added, “write that in your newspaper.” (5 days ago)

Channel: News | Tags: Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Middle East

Yes a very unbiased source; some of these maronite Christians are the reason that the Hezbollah will not mix with civilians. They are allies for Israel, traitors to their own country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The Israeli Commando raid into baalbek last night was quite heroic, and the intelligence gathered proved that Hezbollah hide within civilian structures,..and it was a hospital of all places!!!

loss of everything that makes Israel Israel
That depends on what you think makes Israel Israel. I imagine for many Palestinians the positive aspects are somewhat overshadowed by the negative aspects they constantly witness.

For there to be peace, Israelis and Palestinians would have to feel that they had something to gain from each other's existence. Israel would have to see a Palestinian state as a stabilising factor, not a temporary truce allowing Palestinians to arm in order to destroy Israel. Palestinians would have to see Israel as a possible economic and social partner, not a state bent on destroying them. These two factors are bound together, so I think either side acting on its own is unlikely to achieve much.

Total Hezbollah militants and total Israeli army (CNN)
Hmm. From what I've heard, all Hezbollah militants are in Lebanon, whereas the whole Israeli army isn't. ;)

Yes a very unbiased source; some of these maronite Christians are the reason that the Hezbollah will not mix with civilians. They are allies for Israel, traitors to their own country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


Sabra and Shatila is commonly paraded... what is not paraded however is that there are more than one "Sabra and Shatila"s done by Shias against Christians.

However, just like Israel is not showing gruesome pictures of its dead, so do Christian Lebanese -they just mention it... but since Muslims do, and since bloody pics have more of an impact than words, people forget about one side's massacres

and another thing - who's the traitor to their country? the ones who want to build it and live in peace with its neighbours, or the ones who are a foreign body acting in the interests of 2 foreign governments and bringing only disaster to Lebanon (20-year occupation, destruction of the country [twice], etc. etc.) -- you be the judge

and because the Maronites are "traitors", as you say, this is one more reason for Hizb mix with the pop'n, so the Israeli rockets will hit the pop'n and kill some civilians (aka traitors?)

Hmm. From what I've heard, all Hezbollah militants are in Lebanon, whereas the whole Israeli army isn't. ;)

Ah but which one is refillable?

Yes a very unbiased source; some of these maronite Christians are the reason that the Hezbollah will not mix with civilians. They are allies for Israel, traitors to their own country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
Also allies for Syria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_al-Zaatar_Massacre
...but aren't Hizbollah also Syria's allies?

Although, I thought many of those fractures had mended after the civil war. Are Shia still treated so horribly by the others?

Ah but which one is refillable?
Under what circumstances?

Sabra and Shatila is commonly paraded... what is not paraded however is that there are more than one "Sabra and Shatila"s done by Shias against Christians.

However, just like Israel is not showing gruesome pictures of its dead, so do Christian Lebanese -they just mention it... but since Muslims do, and since bloody pics have more of an impact than words, people forget about one side's massacres

and another thing - who's the traitor to their country? the ones who want to build it and live in peace with its neighbours, or the ones who are a foreign body acting in the interests of 2 foreign governments and bringing only disaster to Lebanon (20-year occupation, destruction of the country [twice], etc. etc.) -- you be the judge

and because the Maronites are "traitors", as you say, this is one more reason for Hizb mix with the pop'n, so the Israeli rockets will hit the pop'n and kill some civilians (aka traitors?)


All the Maronite Christians are not traitors just the ones who are allied to the Israelis and I don't see how supporting an invading force can be considered patriotism. We had such people in India and they enabled the British to persist for 200 years, by giving up resistance fighters.

And because they don't trust the civilians not to betray them to the Israelis, they are unlikely to mix with civilians, as indicated by the Western reporters.

BTW Hezbollah was created only in 1983, after 3 attacks by Israel and during the occupation and at that time 71% of the suicide bombers were Christian and only 8% Islamists, so what does that tell you?

Under what circumstances?

Death or injury, of course. For every Hezbollah there are more than 25 Israeli soldiers. It's an asymmetric war.

Death or injury, of course. For every Hezbollah there are more than 25 Israeli soldiers. It's an asymmetric war.
Well, it's obviously silly to start an asymmetric war on the losing side. So why did Hezbollah choose to antagonise Israel at this point? Does it hope that so many civilians will die that other states will be pushed into a war with Israel, swinging the asymmetry the other way? Or just that more people would be inspired to join Hezbollah? Or did Hezbollah have no intention of starting a war?

...but aren't Hizbollah also Syria's allies?


I don't know much about Syria. They operate covertly and keep a low profile.

Are Shia still treated so horribly by the others?


They are the minority in Lebanon, the poorest.

They depend on the Hezbollah for education, medical care and employment.
The social and political wings of the Hezbollah primarily look after the Shias, though they are also associated with Christians and Druze

Well, it's obviously silly to start an asymmetric war on the losing side. So why did Hezbollah choose to antagonise Israel at this point? Does it hope that so many civilians will die that other states will be pushed into a war with Israel, swinging the asymmetry the other way? Or just that more people would be inspired to join Hezbollah? Or did Hezbollah have no intention of starting a war?

There is something else going on here.
The kidnapping back and forth is not a new occurrence.

I don't know what was new this time.
Even the Hezbollah admitted they were surprised.
In fact, the Hezbollah and the Lebanese were having talks about cutting back on the militancy and increased contribution politically and socially.

Siniora was very much against the Hezbollah; now he's their most ardent supporter

Proxy war between US and Iran perhaps?

From what I've read, the last kidnapping did result in a prisoner exchange - and some of the prisoners Israel released went on to organise new terror attacks. That kind of thing might have an effect on public support for exchanges.

Proxy war between US and Iran perhaps?

Perhaps they thought Iran would come on board? Maybe. Would explain the hardline US position and the disproportionate attacks.

From what I've read, the last kidnapping did result in a prisoner exchange - and some of the prisoners Israel released went on to organise new terror attacks. That kind of thing might have an effect on public support for exchanges.

Perhaps. But there is so little verifiable information on both sides, its hard to differentiate propaganda from facts. What I found really really strange is that everyone is so focused on the 2 kidnapped soldiers, the 8 who died in the altercation are not even mentioned much. I haven't even seen their names. Why are they less important?

But there is so little verifiable information on both sides, its hard to differentiate propaganda from facts.

That's where the Romeo and Juliet quote comes in handy for the frustrated follower of world news. "A plague on both your houses. One of those nasty ones, with boils that itch and ooze and make you unfit for public company."

Yes a very unbiased source; some of these maronite Christians are the reason that the Hezbollah will not mix with civilians. They are allies for Israel, traitors to their own country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Well it's curious that you consider the Maronites - who have never been well-treated by Hezbollah or any other islamic organization, lest we need rear up the head of sharia once more - traitors to Lebanon.

Why? They are Lebanese themselves. There has always been tradional suspicion and hatred between the Maronite and Islamic camps in Lebanon. Why are only they traitors to their country? Are only muslim Lebanese the only authentic Lebanese demography? Should Maronite Christians not have their own sense of identity? Should it be subsumed into the "islamic whole" of Lebanon? And who dictates that the nature of Lebanon must necessarily be islamic? And if this tiny minority of Maronites are traitors to Lebanon, then are Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and all the rest similarly traitors to Palestine and Lebanon? Why or why not?

I don't know much about Syria. They operate covertly and keep a low profile.

And ship weapons to Hezbollah; quietly, keeping a low profile.

All the Maronite Christians are not traitors just the ones who are allied to the Israelis

Or perhaps they just want independence?

BTW Hezbollah was created only in 1983, after 3 attacks by Israel and during the occupation and at that time 71% of the suicide bombers were Christian and only 8% Islamists, so what does that tell you?

Do you have a reference for the above?

Actually, Sam, I just went and checked that sine qua non of internet source and fruitless debate - Wikipedia - and got this:

Hezbollah is considered by some (including the Lebanese government) to be a resistance movement and by others (like US and Israel) to be a terrorist organization. It was formed to combat the Israeli occupation following the 1982 invasion of Lebanon [8] and to turn Lebanon into an Islamic republic. In large part, it was formed with the help of the Ayatollah Khomeini's followers in the early eighties to spread Shia revolution[8][9]. Hezbollah views Israel as a whole as "an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions" [10], and follows a distinct version of Islamic Shia ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

It strikes me as passing strange that Maronite Christians would want to help it make Lebanon an islamic republic; sounds much like the slow turnover of the Viet Minh to a 'communist-only' club. In that latter parallel, would the Maronites then be traitors, considering that Shabra and Satila have their parallels in earlier atrocities by islamic forces against the Maronites?

Or perhaps they just want independence?
Actually, according to one site I came across, Lebanon was created as an independent state for the Maronites (carved out of Syria by France) but they wanted a bigger area and ended up having a bare majority over Muslims. Once Palestinian refugees arrived, the demographic balance really tilted - which is possibly why Lebanon has refused to grant citizenship or otherwise imply they're allowed to stay...

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/900/902/Kamal-Salibi/

Actually, Sam, I just went and checked that sine qua non of internet source and fruitless debate - Wikipedia - and got this:

It strikes me as passing strange that Maronite Christians would want to help it make Lebanon an islamic republic; sounds much like the slow turnover of the Viet Minh to a 'communist-only' club. In that latter parallel, would the Maronites then be traitors, considering that Shabra and Satila have their parallels in earlier atrocities by islamic forces against the Maronites?

Hmm you're right. No they wouldn't be. My bad.

Guess they're all doomed anyway then. It was just a matter of time before they killed each other.

They are the minority in Lebanon, the poorest.

While the Shia are indeed the poorest group in Lebanon, they are also the *largest*, representing some 30-40% of the population. This is due to their higher birth rate and lower emmigration rate. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lebanon

Demographic pressures from the growing Shia population were the root cause of the Lebanese civil war. Back when the Lebanese state was originally founded, during WWII, the Shia were a very small population, and so the state was set up to be dominated by Christians and Sunnis, which at the time made up the vast majority of the population. Over the next decades, the Shia population rapidly increased, destabilizing the political order. Add to this the PLO, which moved into Lebanon after being expelled from Jordan, and you get the Lebanese civil war. The outcome of the civil war saw the Shia with a vastly expanded voice in the government and Hizbollah as the only remaining militia. What this adds up to is a semi-autonomous Shia zone in the southern third of Lebanon.

Do you have a reference for the above?

For the Hezbollah or the suicide bombers?

Hezbullah in action, are they going to investigate this incident? seems they can create collateral damage to, and the ship was in international waters.

Bahrain Tribune Daily Newspaper, Bahrain
Twelve Egyptian sailors were on board a Cambodian merchant ship sunk in a Hizbollah ... since Israel launched its massive offensive on Lebanon on Wednesday. ...
http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?CategoryId=2&ArticleId=114451


12 Egyptians on board ship sunk by Hizbollah
tel aviv (Agencies)
Twelve Egyptian sailors were on board a Cambodian merchant ship sunk in a Hizbollah missile strike, an Israeli naval official said yesterday.
The Egyptian sailors survived the attack and were collected from the water by other passing ships, Brig. Gen. Noam Fieg said. The Cambodian ship was hit late on Friday when it was about 60 km from the Lebanese shore, Fieg added. Hizbollah was targeting Israeli warships off the Lebanese shore, one of which was hit in the missile attack, when the Cambodian ship was struck.

Hezbullah in action, are they going to investigate this incident? seems they can create collateral damage to, and the ship was in international waters.

Bahrain Tribune Daily Newspaper, Bahrain
Twelve Egyptian sailors were on board a Cambodian merchant ship sunk in a Hizbollah ... since Israel launched its massive offensive on Lebanon on Wednesday. ...
http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetail.asp?CategoryId=2&ArticleId=114451


12 Egyptians on board ship sunk by Hizbollah
tel aviv (Agencies)
Twelve Egyptian sailors were on board a Cambodian merchant ship sunk in a Hizbollah missile strike, an Israeli naval official said yesterday.
The Egyptian sailors survived the attack and were collected from the water by other passing ships, Brig. Gen. Noam Fieg said. The Cambodian ship was hit late on Friday when it was about 60 km from the Lebanese shore, Fieg added. Hizbollah was targeting Israeli warships off the Lebanese shore, one of which was hit in the missile attack, when the Cambodian ship was struck.

Hizbollah was targeting Israeli warships off the Lebanese shore, one of which was hit in the missile attack, when the Cambodian ship was struck.

The Egyptian sailors survived the attack

Amazing with such poor arsenal how they never have the "accidents" the Israelis are so prone too.

Did you hear the latest?
16 civilians many of them children.

But a ship in international waters, that's against the Geneva Convention!! International Rights of Navigation, and U.N. treaty.

But a ship in international waters, that's against the Geneva Convention!! International Rights of Navigation, and U.N. treaty.

Frankly I am more bothered about the children being bombed out of existence than a Cambodian ship that was hit accidently where no one died.

Legalities which ignore children being shredded while going ga-ga over an inanimate ship mean less than crap to me.

But a ship in international waters, that's against the Geneva Convention!! International Rights of Navigation, and U.N. treaty.

hiding behind civilians and using populated areas as bases - omg, i think that's against the geneva convention too!

hiding behind civilians and using populated areas as bases - omg, i think that's against the geneva convention too!

Israel doesn't have to abide by international law and they never have. WTF should their enemies??

But sam, as aaa has said the children would not be dieing but for the fact that Hezbullah started this war by miscalculating their power and doing something stupid, and doing there fighting from densely populated areas, and if you don't doubt Hezbullah pictures are staged then you should give the same benefit of the doubt to Israel or are you that prejudiced? now before you get mad I know your not, now give the Israelis a fair hearing.

Um, yeah, I care about my relatives living in peace in their country, but it's not a blanket excuse for everything Israel does.
And what about Palestininas living in safety and free from oppression your relatives in Israel are helping to inflict on an otherwise innocent people ?
Creveld is not a racist, he's an internationally recognized scholar in military history, and is required reading for all US military officers. He fears that creating peace in Israel means expelling all the Palestinians, and he may be right.
Yeah a man who calls for :"The Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent." If that in yopur book is not racism Im dumbfounded .
Brian said himself that they will become a majority eventually, and that would threaten the existence of a Jewish homeland. Jews will not let that happen, so what other choice is there? They don't mean to kill them like the Nazis.
And whats wrong with Palestinians out numbering Jews in Israel ? And here you defending a policy of mass deportation .
After all, I think German or Polish Jews could have adjusted to expulsion, it's just the gassing and torturing that was so wrong.
Fuck me , Jews were mass deported during WWll killing millions before they even saw the inside of a camp . And here this individual is attempting to make a parallell with a future Palestinian population adjustment by mass expulsion .
Creveld is right about Iraq,
What carry on the occupation for decades so Iraq will not threaten its neighbours again .
he's right to criticise Bush regarding Iraq,
Because he wants Bush replaced with a more " decisive " President who will indeed invade Iran .
he's right about Iran
Bombing Iran into dust .
and he's right about Israel.
Yeah attack those Palestinians on the outside of Israel and mass deport all Palestinians in the territories , and finally those Arabs living inside Israel , who hold Israeli citizenship , to be stripped of their citizenship .
Brian, It seems the consensus here is that you go over the top all the time, and you are in denial about the true aims of Islamic extremists.
I support Palestinian resistance against Zionist racist tyranny and a reconstituted Palestine over Israel . My concensus of you now after being informed you are actually Jewish is one of being utterly amazed .
Admitting some of your family were murdered in the holocaust , and then defending a Danish newspaper which during WWII collaborated with the Nazis all because this paper published anti muslim cartoons . Defending Jewish rights of unfettered immigration into Israel on one hand and then on the other highlighting the dangers of controlled moslem immigrantion into Scandanavia . Then castigates me for supporting islamicist extremicists on one hand then on the other hand defends a Jewish extremist who calls for a never ending war against islam and wants the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel .
A few missiles fired every day at Israeli cities has a drastic effect on tourism and the the general ability of citizens to have a normal life.
Oh well Im so sorry , never mind the $3 trillion Israel has sucked out of America will certainly ease things for them . Of course the fact that in Gaza children are suffering malnutrition and are suffering 80% unemployment does not concern you .

Israel doesn't have to abide by international law and they never have. WTF should their enemies??
why not? israel cares more for civilians than hizballah does, that's for sure.

why not? israel cares more for civilians than hizballah does, that's for sure.
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif

Zakariya, I believe that Steve will confirm that the video from the RPV showing the Katushias firing from inside civilian areas are real, I have used the early forms of this type of reconnaissance and these videos follow what I experienced, and some of them are very clear as to what is happening, it kind of hard to misidentify a Missile or a Katushia launch, the signature is unmistakable.
Hey buffalo,

thank you for your post.

i have not seen the video just the pics, pls can you post the link to the video.

Sorry if this ahs already been done.

thanks Buffalo

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif

prove me wrong. who is hiding behind its own civilians? hizballah has no value of human life.

...the fact that in Gaza children are suffering malnutrition and are suffering 80% unemployment does not concern you .
Apparently Mr.Foley does care about civilians..Shocking!!! :bugeye:

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif


you are so sexy when you're being ridiculous!!! please bend over

you are so sexy when you're being ridiculous!!! please bend over
do you have to be so crude

prove me wrong. who is hiding behind its own civilians? hizballah has no value of human life.

Enjoy!!! :D
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Israel/Lebanon: Qana Death Toll at 28, Hezbullah was screaming 56?

you are so sexy when you're being ridiculous!!! please bend over


Here I go (http://www.pukeplanet.com/pukeimages/toilet_puke.jpg)

Here I go (http://www.pukeplanet.com/pukeimages/toilet_puke.jpg)
are you sure you want some of that Orthepd

Well you asked for it!!!... :D

Israel/Lebanon: Qana Death Toll at 28, Hezbullah was screaming 56?

The original death toll was given by the people inside the building.
But Human Rights Watch also failed to find any conclusive evidence that Hezbollah was nearby when the building was hit.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1705459.htm
(what happened to you, Buffalo?
You are not reading properly today?)

We have focused on investigating particular incidents and have gone back to hospital records. I think that it is quite clear that over 500 civilians have died in this conflict at this stage. We have investigated over 150 of those deaths and have determined that in the cases that we investigated, the strikes were against solely civilian targets.

There was no military or Hezbollah rockets anywhere nearby these homes or cars which were struck, and those were very disturbing findings because it means that Israel is not making the necessary distinction between civilian and military objects.

I have worked in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, looking at similar air war campaigns, and I have to say that the ratio of civilian causalities inside Lebanon is much, much higher and Israel is not taking the necessary precautions they need to take to prevent civilian deaths.

We have many, many cases of cars being struck on the road, even though they are flying white flags. The UN itself, their observer posts in Lebanon, come under attack from Israeli fire, sometimes up to 30 times a day.

So you know, I think it's very clear that there is a high level of indiscriminateness in Israel's attacks inside Lebanon.


Human Rights Watch said its lower death toll was based on a registry of 63 people who had sought shelter in the basement of the building that was struck. Rescue teams at the time had located nine survivors.

The group's preliminary investigation found at least 22 people escaped, and 28 are confirmed dead.

"Thirteen people remain missing, and some Qana residents fear they are buried in the rubble, although recovery efforts have stopped," the group's report said.

Human Rights Watch also said that 16 of the dead were children.

However you need not be too disappointed

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/08/5CCB6992-9EE6-48F4-828B-48AD5EAFD1F5.html

Here I go (http://www.pukeplanet.com/pukeimages/toilet_puke.jpg)

is that you bending over?

not as hot

is that you bending over?

not as hot

Yeah bet that cooled you down! :D

I support Palestinian resistance against Zionist racist tyranny
And all their methods such as deliberately killing as many civilians as they can?

and a reconstituted Palestine over Israel .
I support the creation of a Palestinian state as well.

My concensus of you now after being informed you are actually Jewish is one of being utterly amazed .
What difference does that make? It was no secret.


Admitting some of your family were murdered in the holocaust , and then defending a Danish newspaper which during WWII collaborated with the Nazis all because this paper published anti muslim cartoons .
One has nothing to do with the other. I don't care what sort of opinions the owners of the newspaper had in the past, I support free speech, and their right to address some touchy issues regarding Islam. I don't think those cartoons were actually anti-muslim. I am amazed at your inability to grasp complex issues.

Defending Jewish rights of unfettered immigration into Israel on one hand and then on the other highlighting the dangers of controlled moslem immigrantion into Scandanavia .
I don't think I did "highlight the dangers of controlled moslem immigration into scandinavia". Of course there are issues with cultural conflicts, but I wouldn't exactly call it a danger.


Then castigates me for supporting islamicist extremicists on one hand then on the other hand defends a Jewish extremist who calls for a never ending war against islam and wants the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel .
Cleveld isn't an extremist, that is exactly why his assesment of the situation is so compelling. He didn't call for any war against Islam, he is presenting a realistic view about certain extremist muslim elements that control certain states. Also, I don't think he wants the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel, he was expressing a trend he noticed and making predictions about the future. I find your lack of subtlety disturbing. Everything to you is so black and white and you contribute nothing to a greater understanding of world events. I don't use the ignore function, but be assured this is the last time I will pay any attention to your insanity. I would rather discuss the Illuminati with MattMar.

prove me wrong. who is hiding behind its own civilians? hizballah has no value of human life.

Yeah that is the funniest thing I heard in a while.

I got to apologize to all the people here who get "real News" in the country you live in. Unbiased news. News that reports the whole story. Not just the Israeli side of it.

In the US, we get the Israel News. Everything Israel does is right and all Hezbollah does is wrong. Israel purposely targets and kills scores of children and the US press justifies it. Even to the point that Hezbollah killed the children themselves to gain sympathy!

Anybody who relies on the US media for even a small bit of truth is blind. The US media is dominated by Zionist. Is it any wonder that what US citizens hear is what Israel wants them to hear? I bet you can hear on any US media outlet how many Israeli soldiers where killed this week. How many rockets landed in Israel today. But you won't hear how many Lebanese children were killed. How many bombs were dropped by American made, Israeli flown planes. You won't here the Lebanese death count once an hour as you will the Israelis.

Americans for the most part are ignorant to the goings in the world.

so is spidergoat now a stalker harrassing you, foley? :rolleyes:

Yeah that is the funniest thing I heard in a while.

...In the US, we get the Israel News. Everything Israel does is right and all Hezbollah does is wrong. Israel purposely targets and kills scores of children and the US press justifies it. Even to the point that Hezbollah killed the children themselves to gain sympathy!

Anybody who relies on the US media for even a small bit of truth is blind. The .
Same thing with middle east news channels..Hezbollah is right Israel is wrong
I'm watching Abu Dhabi local news right now!!!

Care to elaborate Mr.broadandbeaver?

Yeah that is the funniest thing I heard in a while.

I got to apologize to all the people here who get "real News" in the country you live in. Unbiased news. News that reports the whole story. Not just the Israeli side of it.

In the US, we get the Israel News. Everything Israel does is right and all Hezbollah does is wrong. Israel purposely targets and kills scores of children and the US press justifies it. Even to the point that Hezbollah killed the children themselves to gain sympathy!

Anybody who relies on the US media for even a small bit of truth is blind. The US media is dominated by Zionist. Is it any wonder that what US citizens hear is what Israel wants them to hear? I bet you can hear on any US media outlet how many Israeli soldiers where killed this week. How many rockets landed in Israel today. But you won't hear how many Lebanese children were killed. How many bombs were dropped by American made, Israeli flown planes. You won't here the Lebanese death count once an hour as you will the Israelis.

Americans for the most part are ignorant to the goings in the world.
i had to move to europe to finally realize this.

Same thing with middle east news channels..Hezbollah is right Israel is wrong
I'm watching Abu Dhabi local news right now!!!

Care to elaborate Mr.broadandbeaver?

Read the BBC and Australian news, the French news, news from India, etc.

Enjoy!!! :D
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

thanks, i've read all of it.
now compare that to this report (from the same source) :

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm

i had to move to europe to finally realize this.

yes there is alot of difference

This is hilarious

US news-world
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/
Hezbollah rockets kill 7
Hezbollah pounded northern Israel with 160 rockets Thursday, killing seven Israelis and injuring several, Israeli police said, after Israel resumed airstrikes on Beirut's suburbs. Four were killed in Acre, Israel, just north of Haifa, and three died in the Maalot area, which is closer to the Lebanese border, police said.



UK news-world
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/default.stm
Lebanon damage 'holding up' aid
Goods can only be transported in small lorries for fears that larger vehicles will be targeted, they say.

Israeli planes have been dropping leaflets on southern Beirut telling residents to leave.

Lebanon says more than 900 people - mostly civilians - have died. Israel has lost 63 people - 24 civilians.

Five Israeli civilians and three soldiers were killed in Hezbollah attacks on Thursday, and three members of a Lebanese family died in an Israeli attack on a village.

thanks, i've read all of it.
now compare that to this report (from the same source) :

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm

2 points:

number one:
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

number two:
Lebanon says more than 900 people - mostly civilians - have died. Israel has lost 63 people - 24 civilians.

aaa:

Nasrullah just announced he is going to hit Tel Aviv.

What do you think? :confused:

Is it possible? Should/can they evacuate?

Yeah bet that cooled you down! :D

Samantha you are so hot it would take much more than that to cool a man down off of you :)

Samantha you are so hot it would take much more than that to cool a man down off of you :)

coldshower.com (http://www.funnyjunk.com/p/jiggle-gif.html)

Originally Posted by BF
Then castigates me for supporting islamicist extremicists on one hand then on the other hand defends a Jewish extremist who calls for a never ending war against islam and wants the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel .

it is those "islamicist extrimicists" who define the conflict in these terms...
"one day will come when the tree and the stone will cry out - oh slave of Allah come fight the Jew he is hiding behind me" - sounds familiar? you know where this comes from.

as for the Jewish extremists - their "extreme" views are these: let Jews live in peace in their own communities, no matter where they are - be it under Iranian governance, Egyptian, "Palestinian" - whatever. just let them live in peace, and pray in their holy sites in peace

as for expulsion - it is only because of the genocidal intent of these Muslim barbarians.. if only they learned to stop stabbing, shooting, and blowing up Jews, all the expulsion talk by the extremists would cease...

just cause the word "extremist" is applied unequally towards the two groups doesn't mean they are equally extreme. this particularly reflects in the fact that extremist Jews don't call to a mortal fight to exterminate all Muslims (other than a few soundbites right aftera suicide bombing killing their children in a Dolfinarium where in a moment of anger and desparation they might blurt something out, but take it back when they calm down)

I think James Howard Kunstler (author of The Long Emergency, about peak oil) said it best,
This August, 2006, an aggrieved and energized Islam is mounting a holy war, a Jihad, against its infidel enemies, starting with the Jews of Israel and the Great Satan (America), and wishing to move along as far as Spain now -- according to the recent tapes of al Qaeda's point man, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The current offensive, led by Islam's Shia branch with headquarters in Iran, has stated its objective of "wiping Israel off the map." And yet world opinion affects to be shocked that Israel is fighting Iran's forward troops, Hezbollah, as though for its life.

Now world opinion is further shocked that dozens of children have been killed in Israel's targeted bombings of Hezbollah missile emplacements at Qana, Lebanon. This is what happens when a fighting force uses little bodies for sandbags, which is what Hezbollah does when it hides its rocket launchers behind its most defenseless civilians. Israel has at least admitted to the tragic outcome of its actions there. Meanwhile, world opinion has failed to notice something: Israel's weapons are at least targeted at military objectives, even when tragic errors like this one occur. Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets are not targeted at all, just fired blindly across the border to land wherever they will, on hospitals, grandmothers, kids, whatever.

It's interesting because it illustrates the fantastic childish irresponsibility issuing from the sponsors and partisans of Hezbollah. Israel, they say, made war on them for no reason. They don't seem to remember crossing over into sovereign Israeli territory two weeks ago, killing eight IDF soldiers while kidnapping two others, and following up with the first missile barrage of what is now over 1500 Katyusha strikes. Lebanese children and women get killed, along with innocent UN observers, but that has nothing to do with Hezbollah planting missile launchers thirty yards away. The Lebanese prime minister, Fouad Seniora complains that his country is being brutalized, but fails consistently to explain why his government won't control the war-making activities of a vicious paramilitary operating freely within Lebanon's borders.

This world opinion can't face the reality of Islamic extremism.

number one:
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

it was already written in the first report and you have'nt answered my question.


number two:
Lebanon says more than 900 people - mostly civilians - have died. Israel has lost 63 people - 24 civilians.
israel pays a lower price, true. however you make "63 people" sound like nothing. in my opinion there should have not been any casualties, from both sides. this war could have been prevented. but lets just thank nasrallah for that.

aaa:

Nasrullah just announced he is going to hit Tel Aviv.

What do you think? :confused:

Is it possible? Should/can they evacuate?
i think it is possible. this is why israel said it would occupy south lebanon once again to set a buffer zone free of hizballah, until an international force could take its place.

And all their methods such as deliberately killing as many civilians as they can?
Israel created HAMAS and Hezbollah , these groups wouldnt exist without Zionism , thats the double edged sword of conflict .
I support the creation of a Palestinian state as well.
Whats wrong with ONE state for all , why a Jewish state ?
What difference does that make? It was no secret.
I never knew it .
I am amazed at your inability to grasp complex issues.
I am just amazed at your racism .
Cleveld isn't an extremist,
Calling for the mass expulsion of all Palestinians and the confiscation of Israeli citizenship of of non Jews in Israel as well as calling for a mass attack on Iran regadrless of proof does not make him in your eyes an extremist .
I find your lack of subtlety disturbing. Everything to you is so black and white and you contribute nothing to a greater understanding of world events. I don't use the ignore function, but be assured this is the last time I will pay any attention to your insanity. I would rather discuss the Illuminati with MattMar.
Well you had your chance along with Zephyr and The Devil Inside to get me banned , it failed , and now the good news is along with Zephyr I wont have to put up with your hipocritical racism Zionist arguments . Remember like Zephyr I never sought you out you to debate , I never answered your posts only when you began answering mine , I take this as victory for me . Game over you lose .
so is spidergoat now a stalker harrassing you, foley? :rolleyes:
No , he is not harassinhg me , unlike you , he has the good sense to know when hes beat . Tell you what seeing Zephyr and spidergoat are real Jews and have put me on their ignore lists , why dont you , seeing you love to play follow the leader , do like wise and leave me alone . Huh sounds good ? ;)

it was already written in the first report and you have'nt answered my question.

Because I didn't see one?


israel pays a lower price, true. however you make "63 people" sound like nothing. in my opinion there should have not been any casualties, from both sides. this war could have been prevented. but lets just thank nasrallah for that.


I'm not so certain. There is something strange about Israel's disproportionate response. This looks like a proxy war.

foley, you are such a winner.

HURRAY!!!

harrassment means it is unwanted. you know you love me and my jewishness.

it is possible, perhaps even likely that hizbollah possesses missile(s) capable of hitting tel aviv. however, they have few, if any. and the reaction such a strike would provoke is not something hizbollah wants to bring down on itself. besides, israel has patriots sitting around. they are not worth deploying against katyushas, but if long range missiles start flying in, i think they will be intercepted.

it is possible, perhaps even likely that hizbollah possesses missile(s) capable of hitting tel aviv. however, they have few, if any. and the reaction such a strike would provoke is not something hizbollah wants to bring down on itself. besides, israel has patriots sitting around. they are not worth deploying against katyushas, but if long range missiles start flying in, i think they will be intercepted.

Ok that's good. What are patriots? Do they intercept long range missiles?

Why can't they intercept the Katyushas?

they can theoretically, but it would be a waste. one patriot would probably be worth about a thousand of those pieces of ****. raytheon has info on the patriot at their site, some cursory advertising info here (http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/stellent/groups/public/documents/legacy_site/cms01_048575.pdf). i think howstuffworks also has some info on patriots.

why not? israel cares more for civilians than hizballah does, that's for sure.
Are you serious? I think israel cares only for Jewish civilians, that's it.

The short flight time and low trajectory, the patriots intercept envelope is for a much higher altitude, and requires a tracking time frame of a couple of minuets.

Because I didn't see one?
then i'll ask you another: how can israel fight hizballah a clean war when hizballah uses populated areas as bases? moreover, why does hizballah launch its rockets from such places, as its pretty obvious that civilians may be caught in the crossfire?


I'm not so certain. There is something strange about Israel's disproportionate response. This looks like a proxy war.
israel has nothing against lebanon. hizballah is the only thing that bothers it and for so many years. even after israel withdrew from south lebanon (2000, only six years ago) it just kept on fighting israel, and kidnapping soldiers.
this time they have gone too far, by launching that attack which killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped another 2 nasrallah simply underestimated israel's response. of course israel can't just live with that. it's not strange that it wants to remove this threat once and for all.

Are you serious? I think israel cares only for Jewish civilians, that's it.

then why warning the civilians in lebanon to leave the combat zones? i mean it just gives hizballah a good idea that the air strikes are coming.

then why warning the civilians in lebanon to leave the combat zones? i mean it just gives hizballah a good idea that the air strikes are coming.

It's more fun to shoot a moving target.

aaa , yes for every Peace Treaty that Israel signed what did they get? For every yard of land they gave up for Peace what did they get? For every prisoner realeased what did they get? Peace? we all know what they got,

More Suicide Bombers!

More of Their Children Dead!

More of Their Cities Rocketed!

More of Their Soldiers Killed!

More of Their Soldiers Kidnapped!!

Did they get Peace?No! so what would you do in their place, how many time would you turn the cheek?

Cannot imagine WHY the Lebanese and Palestinians don't welcome them with open arms!

Look at all the democracy they have got from Israel in the last 58 years! :rolleyes:

They should learn from Iraq and Afghanistan. Such flourishing secular societies now that the US has taught them democracy!

And why should Israel welcome them after 58 year of constant sniping and bombings and endless attack on them and their children and their grand children and their grand childrens children? Sam you say your for the children, were would the children be today if all the money the Palistian and Arabs have spent on war with Israel had been spent on Job's, Schools, Hospitals, Water Projects, Irrigation Of the Land, Industry to develope trade with the outside world, tell me were would a lot of children be? alive thats were they would be!!!!

And why should Israel welcome them after 58 year of constant sniping and bombings and endless attack on them and their children and their grand children and their grand childrens children? Sam you say your for the children, were would the children be today if all the money the Palistian and Arabs have spent on war with Israel had been spent on Job's, Schools, Hospitals, Water Projects, Irrigation Of the Land, Industry to develope trade with the outside world, tell me were would a lot of children be? alive thats were they would be!!!!

Since you are a victim of American propaganda Buffalo, you cannot be expected to understand.
Sorry, but I am beginning to think you are a bigot.

It's more fun to shoot a moving target.
you have nothing to debate with, so you make stupid statements.

you have nothing to debate with, so you make stupid statements.



I call 'em as I see 'em.


Medics, injured civilians under attack
Red Cross trucks in south Lebanon targeted by pilots
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/25/MNGJCK4N0A1.DTL

Israel kills Lebanese civilians
Beirut residents voice concern over conflict
An Israeli air raid has killed at least 17 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas. Women and children were among those killed when the convoy was hit. "Bodies litter the road," an eyewitness said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5182564.stm

Lebanese Civilians Caught in Israeli Attacks
For days, Israel has been broadcasting radio warnings in Arabic to Lebanon, ordering civilians to evacuate to the south of the country. But yesterday, on the outskirts of Tyre, Israeli aircraft bombed three carloads of Lebanese families who were all trying to do just that. Among the victims of the airstrikes was 8-month-old Mariam Surour. She lay in a hospital bed Sunday, screaming in pain, her arm splinted, yellow iodine slathered over the burns on her body.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5577538

Israel's government killed another 42 Lebanese civilians in aggressive airstrikes on targets mostly unrelated to Hizbullah on Monday.If the reports coming out of Lebanon can be believed, the Israelis are only sometimes striking known Hizbullah safe houses or facilities or missile emplacements. A lot of their bombardment appears aimed at punishing civilian populations and forcing them north to Beirut. Such an approach would help explain the high number of civilian casualties. That is, there may be an element of ethnic cleansing in Israeli tactics.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14040.htm

etc etc

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Now you tell me, after throwing leaflets and warning the civilians to leave why do they shoot at the civilian convoys who are leaving?

But Sam you are seeing only what you want to see, look at your post you pay lip service to being impartial but in every post you blame Israel, and all you complain about is that the Israelis are not being fair in the conflict, why do they have to be, me I think they are being overly fair in what they are doing.

But Sam you are seeing only what you want to see, look at your post you pay lip service to being impartial but in every post you blame Israel, and all you complain about is that the Israelis are not being fair in the conflict, why do they have to be, me I think they are being overly fair in what they are doing.

A sovereign states should have higher moral standards than a terrorist; otherwise what's the difference?

Israel has exposed itself as a lying terrorist state, targeting civilians deliberately as a punitive measure, shooting refugee convoys and destroying infrastructure unrelated to the Hezbollah. Anyone who targets women and children is a terrorist and the magnitude of Israels terrorism far eclipses that of the Hezbollah.

Sam they do and again you are only seeing what you want to see, If Israel didn't care about civilian casuelties Southern Leabnon would be flat and anything that moved would be dead with a cool blue glow.

You may not realize it in the US, but the US, Tony Blair( I won't say UK because his own Cabinet is split over this, forget the people) and Israel are pretty isolated in this issue.

So does that excuse your short slightness and failure in see only what you want to see? and the same thing was said of Winston Churchill, when he stood alone against world opinion about what to do with Adolph Hitler and his Nazi's, and how many times are the people who are right the minority in their beliefs, just because everybody else say it , does it make it right and proper, in the Middle East they want to kill all the Jews, does that make it right? a large segment of the world want to kill off all the Jews, does that make it right? just because you have a consensus to kill the Jews does that make it right?

So does that excuse your short slightness and failure in see only what you want to see? and the same thing was said of Winston Churchill, when he stood alone against world opinion about what to do with Adolph Hitler and his Nazi's, and how many times are the people who are right the minority in their beliefs, just because everybody else say it , does it make it right and proper, in the Middle East they want to kill all the Jews, does that make it right? a large segment of the world want to kill off all the Jews, does that make it right? just because you have a consensus to kill the Jews does that make it right?

Doen't qualify in this case, since it's not only the Muslim countries who are against this.

And right now, it's Israel doing most of the killing, mostly civilians

And what, is the difference between a 500lb bomb and a Katushia Rocket that kill a innocent Israeli child fired by Hezbullah? tell me, or are you only going to see what you want to see?

You are right there is no difference.

They are both terrorists.

That is my point.

And I didn't limit my post to only Arab countries I talked about the world.

And I didn't limit my post to only Arab countries I talked about the world.

I didn't limit my post to Arab countries either

No you still don't want to see, the Israelis didn't start this fight, Hezbullah like a bully who has had their way to often didn't even consider, that there might be a fight and went right on ahead with their plan to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers to accomplish a prisoner swap for a true piece of shit who in cold blood murdered a Israeli child after killing her father in front of her, If hezbullah hadn't done this would Israel be bombing Lebanon??????

But Sam dos it make it right?

So does that excuse your short slightness and failure in see only what you want to see? and the same thing was said of Winston Churchill, when he stood alone against world opinion about what to do with Adolph Hitler and his Nazi's, and how many times are the people who are right the minority in their beliefs, just because everybody else say it , does it make it right and proper, in the Middle East they want to kill all the Jews, does that make it right? a large segment of the world want to kill off all the Jews, does that make it right? just because you have a consensus to kill the Jews does that make it right?