Hello all,

I want to know that:-

1. Whether photons leaves some trace or effect or information on its absorption & remmition from any atom or molecule?

2. Whether molecules of all substances always absorb & re-emit photons exposed to them or 'energy moves from higher level to lower level' applies in this context?

3. When a atom/molecule absorb a photon its electron are exited & shift to next orbit & will then decays back to origional orbit. Now my question is: How many photons will be re-emitted by this shift on exitation & if there can be differance in strength/value of photons emitted on shift of electron to higher orbit & on decaying back? Furthur, Is there a orbit shift to lower than origional orbit possible & if possible how & what type of photons it will be emit?

Best wishes.

Hello Kumar,

1. Whether photons leaves some trace or effect or information on its absorption & remmition from any atom or molecule?

It leaves the atom or molecule in a different quantum state than before the absorption or emission.

2. Whether molecules of all substances always absorb & re-emit photons exposed to them or 'energy moves from higher level to lower level' applies in this context?

If exposed to light of the right frequency, molecules will absorb the light, making the molecule go to a higher energy state. There are two emission processes: spontaneous emission and stimulated emission. The most common is spontaneous emission, which is where molecules at higher energy levels spontaneously emit photons to return them to their ground energy states.

3. When a atom/molecule absorb a photon its electron are exited & shift to next orbit & will then decays back to origional orbit. Now my question is: How many photons will be re-emitted by this shift on exitation & if there can be differance in strength/value of photons emitted on shift of electron to higher orbit & on decaying back? Furthur, Is there a orbit shift to lower than origional orbit possible & if possible how & what type of photons it will be emit?

When an atom falls back to its ground state, it can do so either in one step, emitting a single photon, or, if their are intermediate energy levels available between the excited state and the ground state, it can emit several photons, each one carrying energy corresponding to the "jump" in energy made by the atom when it released that photon.

Best wishes.

James R,
Thanks,Thanks for reply & best wishes.
"It leaves the atom or molecule in a different quantum state than before the absorption or emission."

I meant when photon absorbed & re-emitted? Will this absorption & re-emission of photon(not just absorption or emission) by atom/molecule will leave some traces/effect on atom/molecule which so experianced absorption & re-emission? ill the re-mitted photon be differant somewhat than the photon absorbed? I think it may be linked to photo-degradation/upgradation.

How does molecules comosed of atoms having low atomic number/weight as water, interact with most of the photons emmited by most of salts?

I meant when photon absorbed & re-emitted? Will this absorption & re-emission of photon(not just absorption or emission) by atom/molecule will leave some traces/effect on atom/molecule which so experianced absorption & re-emission? ill the re-mitted photon be differant somewhat than the photon absorbed?

No. There will be no traces left on the atom, and the emitted photon will be the same as the absorbed one. The only caveat is that the photon is emitted in a random direction.

I think it may be linked to photo-degradation/upgradation.

What's photo-degradation?

How does molecules comosed of atoms having low atomic number/weight as water, interact with most of the photons emmited by most of salts?

I don't know. It would depend on the energy levels of water molecules, compared to salt molecules.

No. There will be no traces left on the atom, and the emitted photon will be the same as the absorbed one. The only caveat is that the photon is emitted in a random direction.

Then what is purpose of this absoption & remission of photons? Nature might had not made anything purposeless.



What's photo-degradation?

I mean same--atoms/molecules effected by light.



I don't know. It would depend on the energy levels of water molecules, compared to salt molecules.
But can water(or H,C,O atoms or atoms with lower atomic numbers in comparisn to higher) be an universal/major absorbant for all or most type of photons?

I mean same--atoms/molecules effected by light.
If you are referring to reactions stimulated by light, such as the decomposition of silver halides in visible light (the original basis of photography), or the formation of Cl free radicals from CFCs due to UV photons, then it is not really affecting the atoms themselves, just giving them enough energy to react.
Then what is purpose of this absoption & remission of photons?
There are lots of things that have no purpose - it doesn't make them any less real. To use a chemistry analogy, the self dissociation of water might be termed pointless, as the water is neutral, but it still occurs.

geodesic,

Thanks anyway one purpose has come to my mind i.e. spread or dispersal of light by reflection, refraction etc. Is it correct?

Still, it does not looks logically correct that photons do not effect permanentaly or leave any information on atoms/molecules on their travel/exchange through these.

Hello,

If we think logically, what can be the prime reason of change, modification or degradation of any substance at its quantum level? Can two atoms or molecules of same element or substance be differant in any way(not isotopes) from each other?
http://www.grandunification.com/jpgs/Energy_Level_Emit.jpg

Btw, what happens when electron goes to lower level on emitting photons? Does it remain there or instantly absorb other photon?

Kumar,

Then what is purpose of this absoption & remission of photons? Nature might had not made anything purposeless.

What makes you think that?

But can water(or H,C,O atoms or atoms with lower atomic numbers in comparisn to higher) be an universal/major absorbant for all or most type of photons?

You have probably noticed that water is transparent. The fact that you can see through water means that it doesn't absorb much visible light. Hence, it is not a "univeral absorbant".

Still, it does not looks logically correct that photons do not effect permanentaly or leave any information on atoms/molecules on their travel/exchange through these.

What kind of traces are you imagining? And why do you think there should be any?

Can two atoms or molecules of same element or substance be differant in any way(not isotopes) from each other?

If you take two water molecules, for example, they are in all respects identical. There is no test you can do which will show that one is different from another. If you swap the oxygen atom from one molecule to the other, for example, you won't be able to do any test afterward which showed they were swapped. The atoms are indistinguishable.

Btw, what happens when electron goes to lower level on emitting photons? Does it remain there or instantly absorb other photon?

It will only absorb photons if (a) there are photons in the vicinity to be absorbed, and (b) the photons have just the right energy which corresponds to a quantum transition in the substance in question.

The amount of time taken before absorption occurs depends on the ratio of photons to atoms.

James R,
What makes you think that?
What kind of traces are you imagining? And why do you think there should be any?

Are sun-burns not related to this effect i.e.exchange of photons? Although this exchange indicate purpose as 'spread of light by refraction,reflection..& travel throught a media, still I think it should leave some traces/effect which in long run should be the prime reason of change & modification at most basic level.

You have probably noticed that water is transparent. The fact that you can see through water means that it doesn't absorb much visible light. Hence, it is not a "univeral absorbant".

Still, light slow down,refraction or photons exchange occurs in water. How? Does "absorb" here mean, media keeps any visible light's photons but water don't?

It will only absorb photons if (a) there are photons in the vicinity to be absorbed, and (b) the photons have just the right energy which corresponds to a quantum transition in the substance in question.

The amount of time taken before absorption occurs depends on the ratio of photons to atoms.

Suppose, we dissolve salt NaCl in water & mix/shake it thoroughly, will then photons of both NaCl & water molecules be emited & exchanged by molecules of NaCl & water or not? Since energy travels from higher to lower,I think Nacl's photons can travel to water's molecules.
Molecular absorption
A typical molecule, M, has many different energy levels. When a molecule absorbs a photon, its energy is increased by an amount equal to the energy of the photon. The molecule then enters an excited state,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

What does it mean "Molecular Absorption of photons"? Can photons be absorbed directly in molecules effecting its inter or intra molecular forces without effecting its atoms?

Kumar,

Are sun-burns not related to this effect i.e.exchange of photons?

Your skin absorbs ultraviolet photons from the Sun. This means that atoms in your skin jump to higher energy states. However, they do not only lose that energy by emitting light. They can also lose it by colliding with other atoms and molecules. The UV light can also break bonds between molecules, causing damage to skin cells.

Although this exchange indicate purpose as 'spread of light by refraction,reflection..& travel throught a media, still I think it should leave some traces/effect which in long run should be the prime reason of change & modification at most basic level.

The absorption of light can obviously produce flow-on effects on things. But it ultimately leaves no traces on the atoms themselves, since the energy is eventually spread to other things.

Still, light slow down,refraction or photons exchange occurs in water. How?

The delay involved in absorbing and reemitting photons in water causes the effective speed of light in water to slow, which leads to all the refractive effects we see.

Does "absorb" here mean, media keeps any visible light's photons but water don't?

Yes. If light is absorbed, its energy is converted to other kinds of energy. If it is not absorbed, the energy remains in the form of light.

Suppose, we dissolve salt NaCl in water & mix/shake it thoroughly, will then photons of both NaCl & water molecules be emited & exchanged by molecules of NaCl & water or not?

The ones which correspond to energies in both water and NaCl can be exchanged.

Molecular absorption
A typical molecule, M, has many different energy levels. When a molecule absorbs a photon, its energy is increased by an amount equal to the energy of the photon. The molecule then enters an excited state,

What does it mean "Molecular Absorption of photons"? Can photons be absorbed directly in molecules effecting its inter or intra molecular forces without effecting its atoms?

Yes. Molecules have their own energy levels, determined by the electrical interactions of the atoms making up the molecules. When a photon is absorbed by a molecule, it can break chemical bonds, or cause the molecule to rotate or vibrate faster than before.

[quote]Yes. If light is absorbed, its energy is converted to other kinds of energy. If it is not absorbed, the energy remains in the form of light.

Thanks. How we consider as energy is absorbed? Can there be any possibility that electron goes to its lower energy levels than origional energy level by losing some photons (means goes to lower level without exitation)?

The ones which correspond to energies in both water and NaCl can be exchanged./quote]

Just take case of NaCl & water specifically. Will photons of each other will be exchanged on dilution, mixing & shaking? Furthur, if many photons(combined) are required to shift electrons from one energy level to another energy level or just one photon which correspond to enrgies is sufficient?

[quote]Yes. Molecules have their own energy levels, determined by the electrical interactions of the atoms making up the molecules. When a photon is absorbed by a molecule, it can break chemical bonds, or cause the molecule to rotate or vibrate faster than before.

Will it happen without disturbing atoms or electrons of atoms to which any molecule is composed?

How we consider as energy is absorbed? Can there be any possibility that electron goes to its lower energy levels than origional energy level by losing some photons (means goes to lower level without exitation)?

If lower energy levels are available, then electrons will ordinarily spontaneously fall to those lower energy levels after a short time, emitting photons.

Will it happen without disturbing atoms or electrons of atoms to which any molecule is composed?

No. Molecules consist of atoms. If you affect a molecule, you are necesarily affecting the atoms which make up the molecule. It just depends on which level you want to look at things - the molecular level or the atomic level.

If lower energy levels are available, then electrons will ordinarily spontaneously fall to those lower energy levels after a short time, emitting photons.

If lower enegy levels are availabe, is it possible to keep electrons or they can remain at lower enegy levels than origional normal level for long after they fall to those lower energy levels after a short time, emitting photons. On other side, can we keep or maintain higher energy level than normal level(means exitation) for long under normal environment.

No. Molecules consist of atoms. If you affect a molecule, you are necesarily affecting the atoms which make up the molecule. It just depends on which level you want to look at things - the molecular level or the atomic level.

What about inter or intra molecular forces, can't these also not been effected by photons-molecular interactions without effecting structure of atoms in molecules.

http://www.grandunification.com/jpgs/Energy_Level_Absorb.jpg

James,

Under above effect, is it possible that electrons of water & NaCl can be exchanged on mixing & shaking?

Perhaps, Kumar. I don't know.

James,

Sorry to keep you involved. Thanks for replies. I just got this link:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1675269&dopt=Abstract

It will only absorb photons if (a) there are photons in the vicinity to be absorbed, and (b) the photons have just the right energy which corresponds to a quantum transition in the substance in question.

The amount of time taken before absorption occurs depends on the ratio of photons to atoms.

Can you tell me the following:-

1. Can/are differant photons(all or most) be differant from each other in their property in all or in some groups?

2.What can be the minimum or maximum vicinity of photons for absorption by atoms?

3. Are all types of waves other than photons can also travel through atoms/molecules as photons travels?

4. Do the photons/waves absorbed/emitted can be specific to molecules also? I mean can molecules possess,emit or absorb photons/waves of specific properties specific to those not specific to their constituted atoms or can photons/waves be emitted or ansorbed with mixed properties representing any molecule?

Hello James, Pls reply some questions.

Furthur, In respect of your reply:"It will only absorb photons if (a) there are photons in the vicinity to be absorbed, and (b) the photons have just the right energy which corresponds to a quantum transition in the substance in question."

If right/specific energy is required for quantum transition how we all hear sound waves, feel other waves & feel radiation/heat from photons, similarily? Are we ll not differant in substance? How then correspondance of right energy takes place or correct?

Sorry, but I need to know this aspect badly, for pursual of discussions at:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42019

Just for general information: Kumar is running this on a number of forums. He is trying to find scientific vindication for homeopathy. His present thesis is that when shaking a solution, photons from the solute leave an imprint on the medium.

Several people have tried, so far in vain, to explain why this does not happen. Unfortunately, Kumar thinks that scientific terms can be cherry-picked at random and assembled in whichever way you please, as long as it supports your belief.

Hans :bugeye:

Hans, are your comments not from a poster of multiple forums & so applicable to you also? Any problem?

Few people are made to resist knowledge possibilities. Visits at multiple places means satisfactory replies not provided at one place. Otherwise noone has much time to waste. Why?

There seems to be no doubt about EM waves since these are substance specific also. But it may require hudge energy for remote/distant transmission. Mechnical waves require less energy but whether these can be substance specific or not, is to be checked>??

The problem is that you are dishonest about your motives. You are asking a lot of questions and people have the trouble of answering, thinking that you are seeking knowledge. I have been answering more of your questions than most people, and I have found that you are not interested in knowledge. All you want is something you can take out of context and claim as evidence for homeopathy.

And no, mechanical waves (also called sound) are not substance specific (which you already know since you use the term "substance specific", which I just used in answering the same question in another forum.).



Hans

Kumar,

1. Can/are differant photons(all or most) be differant from each other in their property in all or in some groups?

Photons are indistinguishable, provided they have the same frequency (or wavelength, or energy, because all these things are related).

2.What can be the minimum or maximum vicinity of photons for absorption by atoms?

You mean, how close does a photon need to get to an atom to be absorbed? That's a somewhat difficult question to answer, since atoms don't have a definite size, and neither do photons. If you want a rough figure, closer than about 1 nm is probably not a bad number.

3. Are all types of waves other than photons can also travel through atoms/molecules as photons travels?

What kinds of waves are you thinking about?

4. Do the photons/waves absorbed/emitted can be specific to molecules also? I mean can molecules possess,emit or absorb photons/waves of specific properties specific to those not specific to their constituted atoms or can photons/waves be emitted or ansorbed with mixed properties representing any molecule?

Any atom or molecule will absorb any photon which has a frequency which corresponds to an energy gap in the atom or molecule.

If right/specific energy is required for quantum transition how we all hear sound waves, feel other waves & feel radiation/heat from photons, similarily? Are we ll not differant in substance? How then correspondance of right energy takes place or correct?

Normal sound waves are pressure waves in air. They are not quantum objects, except on atomic scales.

We feel heat from certain types of photons because atoms and molecules in our skin absorb the photons and dissipate the energy they gain as heat (through vibration etc.).

Sunlight contains photons which cover a very wide range of energies and frequencies, from infrared to ultraviolet. All these different photons have different effects. Infrared photons produce heat. Visible photons can be seen. UV photons can cause damage to skin cells.

If you're really looking for evidence for how homeopathy might work, as has been said, you'd probably do better to come straight to the point rather than tiptoeing around the issue. Why don't you ask what you really want to know?

[quote]Photons are indistinguishable, provided they have the same frequency (or wavelength, or energy, because all these things are related).
Yes, these are the distinguishable aspect between photons & which corresponds to any atom/molecule. But in case of molecules: Will photons released from any molecule be mixed type of energy representing that molecule not sperate photon for all atoms composed in that molecule? I mean: Eg. if any one photon emitted by say NaCl will represent NaCl or two photons representing Na & Cl. If two then will two be mixed one or will move together or will move independantly in differant direction.



You mean, how close does a photon need to get to an atom to be absorbed? That's a somewhat difficult question to answer, since atoms don't have a definite size, and neither do photons. If you want a rough figure, closer than about 1 nm is probably not a bad number.

Sorry, I meant: How far from photon of same corresponding energy as of any atom/molecule can be attracted towards those atoms/molecules? Photons moves at speed of light & can spread by reflection, refraction etc. So do they always wonders for locating its counterpart atom/molecule of corresponding enegy? What is the capacity of photon/Mechnical wave to move,travel or spread? Is it not infinite?

What kinds of waves are you thinking about?

I meant Mechnical waves here. Can these also behave alike photons in matching/corresponding energy levels, travelling & spread ?

Any atom or molecule will absorb any photon which has a frequency which corresponds to an energy gap in the atom or molecule.

Is this type of aspect possible in case of any mechanical wave?


Normal sound waves are pressure waves in air. They are not quantum objects, except on atomic scales.

We feel heat from certain types of photons because atoms and molecules in our skin absorb the photons and dissipate the energy they gain as heat (through vibration etc.).

Sunlight contains photons which cover a very wide range of energies and frequencies, from infrared to ultraviolet. All these different photons have different effects. Infrared photons produce heat. Visible photons can be seen. UV photons can cause damage to skin cells.

Does it mean that we, as a complex molecular structure ,can absorb & emit photons with several or all types of energies OR all types of photons can be corresponded to our molecules OR we have all types of molecules which cn interact with all type of photons? Is it also similar in case when interacting with mechnical waves?

If you're really looking for evidence for how homeopathy might work, as has been said, you'd probably do better to come straight to the point rather than tiptoeing around the issue. Why don't you ask what you really want to know?
That is one consideration. But other energy meditions are also equally in consideration. I mean the goal is to relate any present concept with so called energy medicines--to try to find science of concept:energy medicine. But the problem is that science people usully react adversely and just give a final conclusion that 'these do not work' even at the start of discussions. Since, so many research are still going on we can't treat non-working as an absolute finding OR there can be some miss in our current linking of their working with any science concept. However, you should never think that I am advocating/biased for homeopathy & even homeopathic community may not want, its science is declared in fear of hijacking by modern system. Thanks.