Suppose Hitler didn't commit genocide against the Jews. I can't imagine Hitler not hating the Jews at least a little, but suppose he limited his anti-Jewish policies more along the lines of America's historical treatment of blacks. No death camps, but things like seperate water fountains. Jews not bared from anything, just descriminated against so that, all other things being equal, they'd go with the "Aryan" candidate; but a truly gifted Jew could still advance in German society. Would this have affected the outcome of the war? I've heard stories of resources being diverted to exterminating the Jews that should/could have been used to help the war effort. Not to mention the many capable people whose services Germany was denied because those people happened to be Jewish. Meanwhile, blacks were fighting in the US army despite quite open discrimination against them in American society. Could such a policy in Germany have altered the course of the war? Suppose Enrico Fermi had not been forced to flee Italy and had helped the axis develope the first nuclear bomb? Would the extra soldiers available from the Jewish community and from those who were relegated to duty as prison guards have made a difference? Imagine if those 6 million Jews had all entered the German army rather than being shipped off to death camps! In other words, was Hitler done in by his own hatred?
I doubt it would have changed the war very much. Jewish scientists would still have left if they faced descrimination. If there were no discrimination, perhaps Germany would have gotten the bomb first.
Look at how many didn't flee despite the ongoing genocide. They'd show up at the train station as requested and be shipped off to the death camps. Imagine if every Jew had the opportunity to join the German army and, perhaps, earn full German citizenship for him and his family.
I don't know how many of Germany's losses were due to lack of troops. It was certainly a strategic mistake to waste Jewish labor.
No, it wouldn't have changed anything. The allies knew about the camps long before they actually got around to getting the Jews out. Just like in Palestine today, they did not really give a crap about anyone's suffering above their political aims.
Even if you're right (and I don't concede that because most of the effects would have been inside of Germany. More troops, fewer defections of scientists, fewer resources wasted, etc), it sure would have changed one thing: no holocaust=no Israel. What effect do you think that would have on the middle east? I'm pretty sure that by the end they were using boys and old men as soldiers. More adult males would have been a big help. Not to mention the fact that no death camps would also free up all the associated personel (guards and what have you).
I'd like to make a few uneducated guesses opposing the premise that the Holocaust prevented the use of otherwise good Jewish labor. - Out of the estimated six million Jewish victims, roughly half were Polish. - Of the remaining three million, half were residents of the Soviet Union. - With 1.5 million remaining, roughly half were non-Germans, or were expatriated prior to the Holocaust. - Out of the remaining 750,000, only perhaps 30% would be men between the ages of 15-65, with an even smaller percentile suitable for hard labor or military service. Other assumptions and conclusion: Polish and other non-German Jews would be less than effective soldiers or laborers. The upkeep of a large non-German manpower base would be more expensive than the value of their combined productivity. This is based on the idea of forced slave labor/conscription, discounting the notion that non-Germans from occupied territories would have defected or voluntarily served under the Nazis.
It has been said (by better historians than I), the "original" plan WAS in fact to just plain kick the Jews out of Europe. Displace them to the middle east(or possibly Italian east Africa. Then there was the whole problem of Italians getting beat to shit in North Africa, then the Germans failed to close the suez and seize Palestine. Then production depended more on slave labour. Then they started to lose Europe. Then they got even more mad at the Jews and came up with the "Final Solution".
I think you are right about that, I seem to recall Madagascar was the ideal destination for this method. If compared with American slave trade in the 18th and 19th centuries, I believe an attempt at mass relocation would have been more costly in terms of human life than the concentration camps themselves.
The Balfour declaration was signed in 1917. The British agreed to give the land to the Jews in exchange for a chemical formula to beat the Germans. The immigration to Palestine by the Jews had already begun in the late nineteenth century. At that time, the zionists wanted a complete dispossession of Palestinians and the creation of Eretz Israel, according to the King Crane Commission report of 1919. Britain and US wanted to consolidate the oil in the ME and a local ally who would be anti-communism. So, I do not believe that no holocaust = no Israel.
"In other words, was Hitler done in by his own hatred?" Many explanations. The fact as seen by hindsight is that Hitler lost his campaign to conquer the world before he began it. How? He ended up fighting the people of nations that fought for their lives to exist. He fought to conquer, they fought to live. The latter will always fight ten times as hard as the former.
You've used Hitler's hatred of the Jews as the possible downfall of his conquests. But the reality of it, and what ultimately caused his downfall, was his hatred of the Soviets. Had Hitler's armies remained focused on the western front, he'd have conquered all of Europe in a short time. But remember, that's all from a purely military point of view. Hitler was essentially ignorant of good military strategy and tactis, and that alone caused a lot of problems for his powerful military machine. It's also likely, given that Hitlers was mostly crazy, even had they conquered all of Europe, he couldn't have ruled it for long. He was just too fuckin' crazy! Baron Max
