I'm getting tired of hearing the same attacks on the USA over an over again.

First, lets me make this perfectly clear: I am hardly a "USA lover" or whatever you want to call it. I think it's unhuman that they have capital punishment. I believe the corporations and special interest groups has too much say in US politics. I feel there are important social issues in the US that need to be solved.

But on the buttom line, despite its ailments, the USA is a *democracy* with one of the highest standards of living in the world. Democracy means, that people have *rights*, and the possibility to *change* the USA. And with patience, the problems in the USA will be corrected. i believe that.

Now, lets look at Iraq, which, until recently, was run by an insane dictator, which, including the Iran-Iraq war, probably has the blood of more than 1.000.000 people on his hands. Iraq was not a safe country - have the wrong opinion? Torture and likely death. Belong to the wrong political group or ethnical group? Torture and likely death. Critizise the regime? Torture and likely death.

You dont have a right to your life, and you dont have the right to say what you want - if you value your life, that is.

And here comes the punch line - there are still a vocal group of people, who would have us leave this insane dictatorship alone. Leave millions of people at the hands of a man who doenst give a shit about their lives and suffering.

No, this little groups of self-righteous humans, would rather scream about OIL INTERESTS and AMERICAN IMPERIALISM. They turn the blind eye to the fact, that 26 million people may now have a genuince chance to rise to a level of human rights previously only seen in western countries.

I believe, that with patience, that will happen for the people of Iraq.

But not with the help of the pompous anti-americans.

I suggest you stop talking on whats best for Iraqi you're not Iraqi you dont even know any Iraqi .

You're happy about USA democracy , why dont you give us democracy as well then ? Let us vote , we'll vote no friends with Israel and no oil for USA . Happy with our democracy ? No you're not , thats why we wont EVER be democratic .

Im getting tired and sick of peoples like you trying to justify the inhumane colonization of my peoples , this is the 3rd thread and you have absolutely nothing to answer for .

only thing you can bring in is how bad the AMERIKAN Sadam Husain was , how much better it is right now . Well guess what , it ISNT . RATHER SADAM HUSAIN THAN AMERIKA .

:mad:

I htink whats happening here is that you are talking Ideally. In an ideal situation, communism or absolute freee market capitalism would work. Or I coudl fly. Or come to think of it pigs could fly. But then we're in the "real" world, where idealism clomps along with feet of clay, draming of getting rid of all these human foibles that weigh it down.

The point DJ, is that the motives of the US are a long, long way from humanitarian in nature in this - and their motives require that they remain in Iraq indefinitely. And that means that the average Iraqi has little more hope of a peaceful life now than they did under Hussein. Under Hussein, they only had one enemy to worry about - now they have vigalantes, US army, and Ba'ath party holdouts, not to mention Iraqi guerillas to worry about.
Plus, their natural resource, their prime source of wealth, is being pumped out from beneath their feet and since they're not allowed to hold elections "any time soon" (quote from a US military officer in Iraq), they are in effect being stolen from to the tune of billions of dollars.

And do you really think that an administration who has no problems with introducing the Patriot acts to it's own people and runs Guantanamo Bay would have any compunction to running Iraq under martial law for a decade or three? Or, as they have done in the recent and historical past, installing a saddam-analogue dictator to run Iraq, turning a blind eye to his atrocities in the name of US self-interest?

As i said, I dont think the US is an ideal nation, by far. They have their problems. I was hoping that I had made that clear to begin with, but apparently you didnt get it, Sparks.

As to a hypothetical "saddam-analogue" in Iraq, first of all, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, I'll think that such a puppet would be much more open to humanitarian critique than the Saddam regime was.

Third, even if the invasion of Iraq is completely devoid of humanitarianism, you cannot deny that the removal of Saddam is a betterment of the Iraqi people - a humanitarian bonus. And that is what i think it should be judged by.

Lastly, you continue to ignore that the conditions for the Iraqi people will certainly get better in time.

As i said, I dont think the US is an ideal nation, by far. They have their problems. I was hoping that I had made that clear to begin with, but apparently you didnt get it, Sparks.
No, you made it quite clear. The thing is, you don't seem to understand that at the moment, their redeeming features are in serious recession.

As to a hypothetical "saddam-analogue" in Iraq, first of all, I'll believe it when I see it.
Or you could just look to precedents like those set by Pinochet. Or just even look at Afghanistan. Hell, just look at Iraq - or do you think Saddam was democratically elected in the first place?

Second, I'll think that such a puppet would be much more open to humanitarian critique than the Saddam regime was.
How do you come to that conclusion? Do you see the US signing Iraq up to the ICC or something?
:rolleyes:

Third, even if the invasion of Iraq is completely devoid of humanitarianism, you cannot deny that the removal of Saddam is a betterment of the Iraqi people - a humanitarian bonus. And that is what i think it should be judged by.
I think it's a case of two steps forward, two steps back.
Saddam's gone - hooray. Now look at what's replacing him.

Lastly, you continue to ignore that the conditions for the Iraqi people will certainly get better in time.
Assuming you're right (and I don't think you are - I see Iraq becoming an Islamic state at the end of this and human rights going out the window) - how many will be killed or just die of old age before that happens?

Although I have to admit that many of us are also perhaps being a bit idealistic in how we would like to have the world, but as galt pointed out everythign starts as an ideal.

"Lastly, you continue to ignore that the conditions for the Iraqi people will certainly get better in time."

YOu cannot guarantee that. It slike me saying we'll definitely conquer the solar system, or someone in the 1800's saying we'll definitely conquer disease. Its kind of like the manifest destiny crap. You cant guarantee anything. If you take a longer term view, life for most people has gotten better than say 3,000 years ago, but does that justify all that has gone on in the last 3,000 years?

Originally posted by guthrie
"Lastly, you continue to ignore that the conditions for the Iraqi people will certainly get better in time."

YOu cannot guarantee that.

Yes, i cannot guarantee it, especially as I'm not in charge of Iraqi affairs.

However, i have strong reasons to believe, that with Saddam gone, the Iraq people have overcome their biggest obstacle to freedom and relative prosperity.

However, i have strong reasons to believe, that with Saddam gone, the Iraq people have overcome their biggest obstacle to freedom and relative prosperity.

Amerika is a much greater obstacle than Sadam ever could be . Now we either get a new Sadam (probabably a Shiaa version) or a theocracy . Thanks

The ONLY way to peace in Iraq is to make Iraq herself a nostaglic dream. She has to be broken up clear and simple. The US obviously went in for PNAC and oil, duh! Common, stop with the idealism. Secondly the US is saving lives that's a first. If America was this almighty nation with the principles of democracy and all that then why do we have million of human rights abuses in countries that "don't matter"? 3 MILLION ppl have died in Congo, I don't hear you screaming for intervention. And that is where your 100 per day crap is dis-credited. How about over 1000 a day. So get off the high horse and welcome to reality.

No, this little groups of self-righteous humans, would rather scream about OIL INTERESTS and AMERICAN IMPERIALISM. They turn the blind eye to the fact, that 26 million people may now have a genuince chance to rise to a level of human rights previously only seen in western countries.
Saddam did raise Iraq to the living standards of the iraqi people. He modernised the economy and agriculture raised the life expectancy and drastically reduced illiteracy. Two wars and the sanctions messed things up, though.

Lastly, you continue to ignore that the conditions for the Iraqi people will certainly get better in time.
Why would that be? You've got three dissimilar ethnic groups(two of which are rather pissed) and America has removed the only thing that held them together(ruthless dictator). I could can quite easily see this going the way of Yugoslavia.

And here comes the punch line - there are still a vocal group of people, who would have us leave this insane dictatorship alone. Leave millions of people at the hands of a man who doenst give a shit about their lives and suffering.

Assuming the ends justify the means(ie. if you think bad things are happening you should invade sovereign countries on a unilateral whim) you now have a moral obligation to invade a third of the world's countries. Who first? Zimbabwe or China?

Saddam did raise Iraq to the living standards of the iraqi people. He modernised the economy and agriculture raised the life expectancy and drastically reduced illiteracy. Two wars and the sanctions messed things up, though.

Please do not forget that Iraqi had apartheid , the gaining was not equally shared .

I could can quite easily see this going the way of Yugoslavia.


This would be a total disaster , it can never be allowed to happen . The only solution is 3 states and USA out .