Every thread here and most in the religion forum are a sad testament to the failings of general education. Through the mandatory public "education" in most developed countries right through most degree programs, we cram information into the heads of the students and pay almost no attention to the methods of how to think about this and all of the future information that they will be exposed to.

There is a correct way to think about phenomena and the weighing of any evidence (or lack thereof) surrounding them. It's called "critical thinking". It's hard to blame people for not using what they were never taught. For most, critical thinking is a learned skill. We in the developed world should be ashamed for allowing 99% of the population to be permanently stuck in the mire of pseudo-science and superstition for the lack of a few well structured courses throughout the educational process.

Interesting. I just posted this in another forum, on another topic, but it seems apt:

Ignorance may be classified in two ways:
1) Ignorance of facts.
2) Ignorance of process.

Ignorance of known facts can be addressed through education and study; unknown facts through investigation and research. Such ignorance is not of itself generally an issue. One could argue that it is the recognition of such ignorance and the consequent efforts to remove it that form the foundation of our society.

Ignorance of process is another matter. This ignorance leads to superstition, prejudice, myopia, and a host of isms. Ignorance of process undermines civilisation.

Yes, yes indeed!

'critical thinking' hey?....which is the chile of anglo-american anlytical-philosophywhich is patriarchal and divisive

why not radical FEEELING?? that's whatis NEEDED.

For last 500yars you crtical-thkin boys have carved in reality, land, sea, you maname it--consciousness--via mindcontrol, into compartmentalized enclosured to be bartered, exploited, and ...tis mindset is TOXIC and we are right in te shit of it now. thousands and ousands of species going extinct, tres and wildlands being exploited and trasshed, the turture of animals for ever-so-precious humans. for tis mindset is riiiight up its own arse.

ignorantly on purpose destroying the very living and delicate fabric of life

Druging millions of children with toxic chemicals to FORCE them to accept tis ecocidal philosophy, whilt also waging is fave pastime, W A R!!, on the sacraments that heal

you know what yo can do with your 'critical thinking'.....don't you?

I wonder, however, if non-critical thinking (e.g. mysticism) isn't somehow a deep part of being human. But I don't remember a time in my adult life that I wasn't a critical thinker (skeptic). Maybe some of us are just naturally that way and the rest are... not? Would education in critical thinking really make a difference? Or would it be more like trying to train people into a different eye color?

I agree and think that critical thinking should be taught at schools.
The problem though may be to find teachers who are able teach it.

As for me, I took a semester of it in the uni,
it was a free choice class among others.

'critical thinking' hey?....which is the chile of anglo-american anlytical-philosophywhich is patriarchal and divisive

why not radical FEEELING?? that's whatis NEEDED.

For last 500yars you crtical-thkin boys have carved in reality, land, sea, you maname it--consciousness--via mindcontrol, into compartmentalized enclosured to be bartered, exploited, and ...tis mindset is TOXIC and we are right in te shit of it now. thousands and ousands of species going extinct, tres and wildlands being exploited and trasshed, the turture of animals for ever-so-precious humans. for tis mindset is riiiight up its own arse.

ignorantly on purpose destroying the very living and delicate fabric of life

Druging millions of children with toxic chemicals to FORCE them to accept tis ecocidal philosophy, whilt also waging is fave pastime, W A R!!, on the sacraments that heal

you know what yo can do with your 'critical thinking'.....don't you?

Listen big D. Yes, we are causing species to go extinct at a high rate. Critical thinkers recognize this and propose solutions (such as ecologically friendly sustainable societies) but the emotional FEELING greedy business bastards who rely on their emotions instead of critical thinking are blind to this.

As for your millions of children being "poisoned", sure there are toxins in the environment, and again it is the emotional, uncontrolled growth of big industry who is to blame. A bit of critical thinking might help here. Also, many of the children you mention would not even be alive if it weren't for technology.

Us "critical thinkin boys" are the ones who are going to save you from your own emotions. You offer zero practical solutions. "Let's all FEEL better about the environment and it'll BE better. Nope. A critically thought out plan for sustainable society is what's needed. Not nature worshiping mush-brains preaching love for trees.

I wonder, however, if non-critical thinking (e.g. mysticism) isn't somehow a deep part of being human. But I don't remember a time in my adult life that I wasn't a critical thinker (skeptic). Maybe some of us are just naturally that way and the rest are... not? Would education in critical thinking really make a difference? Or would it be more like trying to train people into a different eye color?
i tend to think this: so-called sceptics who believe in the materialistic interpretation of reality PREsume that its alternative is....mysticism...?

well, in reality, science has GROWn OUT OF mystical ideas-----Pythagoras...??

what the mystical schools did was psychologically divide 'spirit' from Nature...! and spirit was more associated with the male. whilst Nature and body and emotions and subjectivity with the female

They saw the female/Nature as aa seductive enticing trap which tries to keep the 'heroic' male spisirt from returning to the 'spirit'

he Indigenous inisght is generally verty different. it DOESN't separate spirit from matter. For for this understanding Nature is alive, and we are ultimatly interrelated with Nature

What materialistic science did/does is...dispenses wit te concept of spirit entirely, in both ITS SUPERFICIAL AND DEEPER MEANING...!!!

tEN WE ARE LEFT STRANDED IN ITS OPPRESSIVE CONCRETSCAPE. ISOLATED BIOCHECMICAL machines wating to be 'fixed' wit its ('anti') 'meds' if we 'go wrong'--

The Wasteland!

I agree and think that critical thinking should be taught at schools.
The problem though may be to find teachers who are able teach it.

As for me, I took a semester of it in the uni,
it was a free choice class among others.

Yes. I also had a class on applied cognition. Wish there had been more throughout my eduication.

Every thread here and most in the religion forum are a sad testament to the failings of general education. Through the mandatory public "education" in most developed countries right through most degree programs, we cram information into the heads of the students and pay almost no attention to the methods of how to think about this and all of the future information that they will be exposed to.

There is a correct way to think about phenomena and the weighing of any evidence (or lack thereof) surrounding them. It's called "critical thinking". It's hard to blame people for not using what they were never taught. For most, critical thinking is a learned skill. We in the developed world should be ashamed for allowing 99% of the population to be permanently stuck in the mire of pseudo-science and superstition for the lack of a few well structured courses throughout the educational process.

I'm afraid there is more too it than that. You are definately correct in that the average joe is wielding very poor thought processes and the products of 'belief' are a testament to that. The average joe is also wielding very poor relationship and ethical decision making skills.

I am thinking that maybe some of the earliest education children receive should be to learn how to think, how to relate with themselves and others, and how to make ethical decisions. Once they hit adulthood, destroying and rebuilding someone's conceptual and emotional geometry becomes 100 fold harder.

i tend to think this: so-called sceptics who believe in the materialistic interpretation of reality PREsume that its alternative is....mysticism...?

well, in reality, science has GROWn OUT OF mystical ideas-----Pythagoras...??

what the mystical schools did was psychologically divide 'spirit' from Nature...! and spirit was more associated with the male. whilst Nature and body and emotions and subjectivity with the female

They saw the female/Nature as aa seductive enticing trap which tries to keep the 'heroic' male spisirt from returning to the 'spirit'

he Indigenous inisght is generally verty different. it DOESN't separate spirit from matter. For for this understanding Nature is alive, and we are ultimatly interrelated with Nature

What materialistic science did/does is...dispenses wit te concept of spirit entirely, in both ITS SUPERFICIAL AND DEEPER MEANING...!!!

tEN WE ARE LEFT STRANDED IN ITS OPPRESSIVE CONCRETSCAPE. ISOLATED BIOCHECMICAL machines wating to be 'fixed' wit its ('anti') 'meds' if we 'go wrong'--

The Wasteland!

You have a bleak outlook indeed. First, there is no "spirit" or non materialistic nature to nature. Yes, we are biomechanical machines. But we are very special ones. We have the ability to massively alter our environment. Would a critically thinking biological machine alter it's environment to it's detriment, both physically or emotionally? NO!. It's the lack of critical thinking that allows humans to over use and destroy common, non-renewable resources.

You have critical thinking confused with pure materialistic greed.

I'm afraid there is more too it than that. You are definately correct in that the average joe is wielding very poor thought processes and the products of 'belief' are a testament to that. The average joe is also wielding very poor relationship and ethical decision making skills.

I am thinking that maybe some of the earliest education children receive should be to learn how to think, how to relate with themselves and others, and how to make ethical decisions. Once they hit adulthood, destroying and rebuilding someone's conceptual and emotional geometry becomes 100 fold harder.

Exactly! I would love to see a complete overhaul of the modern education system. I was appaled every year at the repetitive nature of the "cramming" of information down my kids throats without the slightest concern for how they thought about it or what the ethics of decisions regarding it were. I had to provide that myself. Most don't have it to provide unfortunately.

Exactly! I would love to see a complete overhaul of the modern education system. I was appaled every year at the repetitive nature of the "cramming" of information down my kids throats without the slightest concern for how they thought about it or what the ethics of decisions regarding it were. I had to provide that myself. Most don't have it to provide unfortunately.

I hear ya. Our education system is long overdue for some positive overhaul and I've had some considerations (a little encouraged by some friends) of a career change to a politician so I could direct influence these things. We'll see how that goes as I am not sure I am ready to jump into that arena with my background... but then again...

I wonder, however, if non-critical thinking (e.g. mysticism) isn't somehow a deep part of being human. But I don't remember a time in my adult life that I wasn't a critical thinker (skeptic). Maybe some of us are just naturally that way and the rest are... not? Would education in critical thinking really make a difference? Or would it be more like trying to train people into a different eye color?

There is no conflict between mysticism and science,
the problem nowadays is that the science of 2000 ad is in conflict with the science of 2000bc (bible).

For example, hinduism has no problems at all with modern science, because all their gods, etc., are symbols of some dynamics of the universe (as are all gods in all mythologies, by the way) and they are aware of it (the gods in the East are more "elemental"), you can perfectly put Kali dancing in a black hole and the symbol doesn't change the meaning.

Mythology (and rituals as a part of mythology) and mysticism is a psychological tool to put one's mind (subjective reality) in harmony with the objective reality. It has nothing to do with actually telling what the objective reality is. And it works best when the information on the objective reality is up to date.

In the bible days the people had knowledge of their objective reality as they had, i.e., very poor due to the lack of appropriate technology. And even today we still don't know many things.

But jews, christians and muslims have made the mistake in interpretation and take their mythology for a fact and there lies the problem,
i.e., they read and interpret it wrong, thus they think that what is a symbol, for example, representing a state of mind (kingdom of god) is an actual, factual place.

It's one of the things you become aware of when researching world mythologies. :)

The problem with mysticism nowadays is that:

1. It for the most part is outdated, we are just developing too fast on the scientific level, and the mind doesn't keep up. We are like cave men with chainsaws.

2. The second part of the problem is that many people in the west and middle east interpret it wrong, there was some point at time when these people (at the days of early judaic times) became confused and forgot the meaning and purpose of their own mythology.
Ask any high hindu, buddhist (or other eastern) priest and I can assure you that he will laugh at anyone suggesting their gods are actual beings.

3. Our civilizations (there are about 6 distinct civilizations today) generally have gone into an economical and political stage where the mental enjoyment of life is limited to power and sex, so people don't have the time to sit down and think about these things, they just want to buy quick answers and don't think about their own place in the universe any more. And voilà, they buy a little book and it sorts that out (sort of).

The big three (judaism, christianity, islam) are stuck in their metaphor, they can not get past it and they don't even get the message it transcends any more, and even more - the judaic message (and as a source and basis for the other two) is flawed, dangerous and stupid, but that is another discussion.

Avatar,

If only everyone thought as you do. I agree with your assessment. Call it what you will - mysticism, spiritualism, etc. - is fine as a reflection of the way our inner being feels. I freely admit to feeling a deep sense of the numinous, mysterium tremendum, whatever, when I stare into a starry sky and contemplate the nature of the universe. I would never deny anyone that and I think it is a wonderful emotional experience.

I agree with your observations that most current religions have completely confused their symbolic representations for this inner state of being with an objective reality.

A shame, really, because I think the universe if far more deep and suprising than mass religion presents it. Way cooler.

A shame, really, because I think the universe if far more deep and suprising than mass religion presents it. Way cooler.

Hell yeah! I'll drink to that :cool:

You have a bleak outlook indeed.

me))not MY outlook! the Wasteland is YOUR materialistic outlook

First, there is no "spirit" or non materialistic nature to nature.

me)))))so your bible tell you so?

Yes, we are biomechanical machines. But we are very special ones. We have the ability to massively alter our environment. Would a critically thinking biological machine alter it's environment to it's detriment, both physically or emotionally? NO!.

m)))))it's HAPPENING...for fuks sake!!!!!!

It's the lack of critical thinking that allows humans to over use and destroy common, non-renewable resources.

me)))))rather it is so-called 'critical tinking' thats lost its feeling capacity, which tehn, bliving itself to be a mcahine and have no deep connection with organism and Nature, justifies to its mechanical idea of itself, it can carve up Nature, because it feels it to be dead-commodity.

You have critical thinking confused with pure materialistic greed.
the two go hand in hand. as i said here, or in another thread. 'critical thinking' is the chile of anglo-american analytical philosophy, which is patiarchal, and tus divisive.

You really have one messed up brain, duendy. I suggest you apply for a course in critical thinking at your local university, because it seems that you really have absolutely no idea what critical thinking is.

You really have one messed up brain, duendy. I suggest you apply for a course in critical thinking at your local university, because it seems that you really have absolutely no idea what critical thinking is.
ohhh yeeees i haaave! YO are a livin example of it. an arrogant dangerous clown

A trickster actually. Thanks for the compliment! :)

So you are saying that you know what critical thinking is, yet haven't studied it.
For your own sake I suggest you do or don't be upset when other people call you ignorant.

A trickster actually. Thanks for the compliment! :)

So you are saying that you know what critical thinking is, yet haven't studied it.
For your own sake I suggest you do or don't be upset when other people call you ignorant.
Avatar...i say this with hand on heart and dont need others t tell me. YOU are a prize idiot! all the more so because you imagine you are superior and educated.

:D :D you are just great! your psyche is the most curious and amusing one in sciforums
you are a prize of a case study! :)

:D :D you are just great! your psyche is the most curious and amusing one in sciforums
you are a prize of a case study! :)
what you think? should i put meself on show and charge admission?

what you think? should i put meself on show and charge admission?

I think you could make alot of money volunterring for paid sociological studies.

OMG! duendy, you are fucking hilarious! This is great!

SuperL, and others, great thread.

Emotional maturity unfortunately does not come out of a text book. Leadership is unable to be learned over the internet. Critical thinking, I tend to feel is a logical outcome of emotional maturity and self leadership skills.

Possibly one of the reasons why critical thinking is so deplorably absent is simply that critical thinking with out the wisdom needed to govern it is no better than a computer nerd living with out electricity.

When my children were growing up in the affluent East of our city I often discussed this very subject with them. That the ability to think without the overwhelming hubris of strong passion and emotion. To assess something with as little bias as possible yet maintain the ability to manage the synergy of emotion and thought with wisdom and self care. In other words not deny their emotional health because of an over emphasis on the aquisition of knowledge. That health is more than just a mere thought routine yet can be severely compromised by said thought routines.

To maintain their humanity yet temper it with sound rational etc etc....

I think most primary/ highschool teachers have considerd all these things and do the best they can given their directives and resources.

It is the balance between the emotional body and the intellectual body that has elluded mankind since he first found fire and pondered the big questions about existance and his place in it.

An old film staring Robin Williams , I think it was called The Baron Von Muchenhousen [ spls?] or something like that,that deals with this connundrum of emotion and intellect and how the emotions seem to be in conflict with higher intellectual thought. [ One situation or segment of the film ~ any way]

I agree however that we must start somewhere and maybe a more holistic approach would be more beneficial.

I also agree that humanities emotional maturity is still lagging a tad behind it's intellectual growth, but then again that is the nature of it as well, a sort of leep frogging as our intellects inspire situations we never had to deal with previously.

When I was at Highschool many years ago we had a class that was part of year 10 which was called "clear thinking". It only ran for a few weeks and I do recall being very interested in it and dis-appointed that it was such a short course. I assume that Clear Thinking is and was very similar to "critical thinking".

Just to finish this post up, I also tend to think that parenting needs to be considered more and thought about more, with appropriate supports etc so that the parents can assume their responsbilities in more productive ways.
Unfortunately many parents consider their children as liabilities instead of assets and this is where we have a great problem. IMO [ the teachers can not do everthing]

Any way I am just yakking with this post. and no it is not part of a critically assessed thesis so don't expect me to be overly concerned about defending it.......