I’m sure this has been asked before but I have never heard it answered and would like to know your thoughts. If your god truly does exist why is there no proof? If we disregard the Bible as a questionable resource (I’m not say it IS wrong. Just that it COULD be).

If your god created us he must know how our brains work. No sentient being would expect conscious intelligent creatures to accept something purely on faith. It’s not natural or logical and we are at least in part logical creatures something we must assume would have been intentionally made a part of us.

The only answers I can think of are A) He doesn’t exist. B) He did exist once but hasn’t for sometime (Or at least hasn’t been in the neighbourhood) C) He Does exist but doesn’t care. D) He does exist but CAN’T prove his existence.

Actually I can think of a whole bunch of other ones but they all basically boil down to him either not existing or not being what Christians claim him to be.

I am open minded about this and if someone can come up with a plausible explanation I would love to hear it!


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Why?

The Correct answer is A.

Good question, May i recommend a book by C.S Lewis (author of The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe) called Mere Christianity. In this book he goes into a number of proofs of God's existence, which include our own nature and sense of justice (where do they come from?) and the nature of perfection and evil. For a wrong to exist there first must be an absolute right. Everything bad originates from something good and is just a distortion of it. If you really are open minded and want answers i suggest you read the book.

OMA--

God may well exist, but any problems communicating with or understanding It rests not as a human fault, but as a natural condition in accord with the will of that creationary force.

Essentially, I think that whatever we call God, be it the God of the Christians or the sum total of all the rocks, snowballs, lightning storms, ad nauseum taking place in our universe, it is impossible for us to grasp the entirety of God. I base this on a simple idea:

* God is infinite. Or, if you will, the Universe is infinite. The human brain, however, is not. The brain is finite, and thus cannot possibly account for an infinite number of factors when describing something. Much as St Augustine (I think it was) spoke of God creating a stone too heavy for Him to lift, it seems the same idea to ask a finite system to maintain an infinite amount of data within its confines.

Heck, my two cents ain't worth a turnip this time out, but at least the garden grows. ;)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

my dad tried to make me read that book, i didnt want to. but what i think, is that god is a figment of out imaginations. the human only uses about 1/6th of there brain, that leaves 5/6th of unknown 'stuff' so we created a god, then when we pray, we sometimes tap into that small part of our brain, hence the 'maricales' of god, are miracles of ourselves. so we have made up a god figment in our minds, when it is really us. i dont want to say that this 'is' the way it is, becasue for all we know, the most mighty thing in the world could be a rock, this could all be a dream, or a ancient cult that died out in the 1600's was the only true religion, anything is possible, i am jsut trieing to make everyone see my point of veiw, and what i beileive, i will stick up for christians if i think the person ridiculing them is a complete dumb ass, because i have reasearched christianitly for so amny years, i know a lot about it, and if they cant defend tehre own beielifs, and if they cant pute anything down, tehn they best not try.

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages. i may be young, but i can see a hell of a lot more than you ever did.

-dexter (yahoo sn: rancid242)

Some good answers!
Tiassa, you sound like a person who really thinks about things. You're right God is infinite and as finite beings we shouldn't be able to communicate with it. But as the creator of us it must be reasonable to state that he would want a relationship with us. That's where we went wrong, but being a God of infinite love, he wasn't willing to give up on us. That's where Jesus comes into the picture. For us to get close to God and vice-versa he needed to understand temptation and what being a human actually is like (empathise, so he came to earth in the form of a man (Jesus) and went through the life of a human, he then died on the cross to pay the penalty for all the sins man had and ever will commit. Infinite love from an infinte God and Creator. Now this may sound a little far fetched i know, but could anything truly be out of the capabilities of an infinte being. It becomes hard to understand when we try to limit God to our own "brain" and what can concieve. To Dexter, maybe you should read the book if your father recommended it, if it's wrong it won't matter will it, it's no threat and you could carry on beleiving as you do.

Happy thinking!

The answer to the topic post is actually pretty simple. The judeo/christian god doesn't believe he should HAVE to prove his existence to every generation that walks the earth.

And the christian god did not create beings that could make up their own minds, make their own decisions. They stole that by eating the forbidden fruit in Eden, at "satans" suggestion.

Some good answers however let me just define my understand of proof. For something to be considered proof it must be “real” “measurable” and “objective” (as opposed to subjective). It must also be applicable to just the thing your trying to prove. To Say that god exists for example because I feel his presence is subjective therefore cannot be considered proof. To say that God exists because the world is here can’t be considered proof either because there are many other plausible reasons for the world existing (at least many other reasons as plausible as it being god’s creation)

Now I like Tiassa’s post. This makes a lot of sense however, I would argue that whilst comprehending an infinite anything is probably beyond the capabilities of the human brain (at least at this time) Seeing proof of it isn’t. For example Pi is an infinite (as far as we can tell) fraction. We can see this and prove it using mathematics. We don’t need to understand or even fully comprehend an infinite god In order for there to be proof of a God. However purely in the Christian sense of God this doesn’t apply anyway as in accordance with the bible he has proved his existence in the past and therefore should be able to again.

Corp. Hudsons last post really sums it up and unfortunately is the clinching argument against the whole thing for me (at least in so far the Christian faith is concerned). If the Christian God where real as per the Christian belief system then he would know that in order to convince me he would have to provide proof. He would also know that it is unreasonable to expect an educated intelligent individual with a mind of his own to believe something purely based on the words of others. Especially given the wealth of other ideas, faiths and beliefs in the world almost all of which sound at least vaguely plausible if taken at face value.
The only other option is that he doesn’t care if I believe in him or not and that pretty much goes against the whole concept of the church.

A final note, if a man (or woman) acted as the Christian god is depicted to then he would be considered unreasonable to the point of insanity. True?

Comments, insults, come backs?


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Why?

Great Logic Alf ...

Indeed, why is the whole process of Christian belief so in the air? Because of the Christian concept of "free will"? That seems to me like finding a solution by inventing a problem. As opposed to solving a problem by using, God given (wink,wink)logic and learning. After all who`s image where we supposedly made in? And yes I am completely flabbergasted by the viscious nature and tyrannical unpredictability of the OT Jehova.

Take care

That sounds like a really good book. The concept descibed is exactly how I came to understand the existence of God. If you dare to question the deep things in life, like where joy and pain come from and why...what is right and what is wrong and why...there are some things, most things that can be seen as moral paradoxes. You just can't find an answer without religion. Or the answer that you find to be true, just happens to jive with the Bible. Now, you may not consider that to be objective proof, but it makes perfect theoretical sense to me based upon what I know to be true about reality and about life. And that was enough to give me a mustard seed of faith, and then you see the objective proof. But it's extremely personal. It seems that it has to be. I mean, someone who knows me well could look objectively at me and say that they could see changes in me, and they may attribute that to my beliefs whether they believe or not. But I am the only one who can say for sure. I say that God talks to me...has shown me things...has answered prayer, and there's always someone who will say that it's all some bizarre coincedence, or that I'm mentally bent. You have to experience this for yourself. It's a personal journey that you can't leave up to someone else to take, and then convince you of it's reality. You can't look at the church...you can't look to others...you can't even look to a book...you have to look at your own life, and the universe around you...you have to look at your own soul...you will find that this world doesn't even make sense without God. Before I even got saved, it got to the point where the concept of atheism was illogical to me...based upon what I KNEW to be true about myself, my life, and my world. Illogical.

As long as people look at the Bible and the church in search of error, instead of searching for truth, they will never find truth. How can you find truth when it is not what you are searching for? I promise you, only because it's backed up by God, that if you truly seek the truth about Christ with humility and sincerity in your heart, that you will find it. You will find Him, just like I did...I guarantee it. Or your money back. But let me just say that humility and sincerity is not easy to come by in this world. This place makes your heart hard. You gotta be willing to give that up...that defense. It's not easy. Don't look for an easy answer is what I'm saying.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Some good answers however let me just define my understand of proof. For something to be considered proof it must be ¡§real¡¨ ¡§measurable¡¨ and ¡§objective¡¨ (as opposed to subjective). It must also be applicable to just the thing your trying to prove. To Say that god exists for example because I feel his presence is subjective therefore cannot be considered proof. To say that God exists because the world is here can¡¦t be considered proof either because there are many other plausible reasons for the world existing (at least many other reasons as plausible as it being god¡¦s creation)

OMA,

Everyone wants proof! What ever happened to a simple faith :( A childlike faith or coming to know God as someone we can totally trust?

Proof comes in the individual, Lori touched on this. To Understand how? We need to understand why Jesus came and what HE does.

Jesus came as a fulfilment of God the Fathers words, He came for one reason and only one reason. To deal with the hearts of men, women and children through His life, death resurrection and ascension. A lot of other stuff happened along the way and is recorder in the Gospels along with other historical literature. But Jesus¡¦ primary purpose was to restore the human race to the Father, to renew the heart, that part of us that groans within out chest with a multitude of feelings and emotions every day.

I had started touching on this truth with Infinity in another post:

Would what I say have made a difference to your heart?
I could spell it out for hours in debate here with you, Boris, Tiassa, Mooncat, Searcher etc etc in an effort to win an intellectual argument. But how does that affect your heart? For it is with the heart that we believe for salvation, not the mind.
If your heart is so overruled by your mind then all words we speak will be futile. The lord of all glory came to have a loving and living relationship in your heart. The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom that rules and reins in the hearts of men, women and children. Why the heart? Why not an intellectual kingdom? Why? Because it is from our hearts that our desires come, these desires then take on form in our minds and are played out in our actions.

Matthew 13:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 15:
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Heart first, soul second and then the mind will follow.

Jesus came to deal with the hearts of men, for it is our heart that is wicked and needs healing. Our minds are a product of the state into which our hearts are born, that being a state of wickedness. So it is wickedness that we desire for, it is fulfilment of our own desires and not fellowship with God or obedience to Him.

Lessons of the heart are the hardest to learn as they confront all that we are. Lessons of the mind are not as difficult. The renewing of the mind is through the word of God.

So you want proof? Well I could spell out to you what He did in my heart as proof of His reality. People don¡¦t just change overnight by themselves, it take a whole lot more than just shear determination to turn a rampaging youth around overnight. The proof is that my heart was evil, destructive, selfish, self centred, callous, etc. The only thing that changed my heart was love, God¡¦s love. Me allowing Him to renew my heart, to give me a new heart and a new life. That is my proof of Him being real, that is my testimony of His reality, but it is not yours or Tiassa¡¦s, or Infinities or Mooncats or Searchers or Boris¡¦s or Dave W¡¦s or many, many more. One person here who recently came to know the truth of this proof is Flash. She was not much different than I, she was angry and hurting, she hated everything that had the word God attached to it. But she proved Him real, she had more guts and strength that any other in this place has shown. Flash saw her anger, she saw the destructive nature of it and the path it lead her down and she confronted it. She faced her deepest doubts head on, she put them to the side and did something, she prayed. Yes she proved God, she proved Him by allowing Him to come and have communion with her, she asked Jesus to be real to her, to show her what the heck all these Christians knew, and she proved God. The evidence is right her on this bulletin board for all to see, and I know she is a changed person.

So the proof is the change of our hearts.

Flash before:
this link (http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000201-1.html)
Flash after:
this link (http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000278-3.html)

Flash
Member
Posts: 888
Registered: May 99
posted July 19, 2000 12:28 AM
Open Minded Alf,
First, I'd like to welcome you to Exo.
Wow, you sound so much like I did not so very long ago. To clear things up..no, I'm not Infinity...LOL Was a little misunderstanding on Tony's part. I have pretty much done a 180 regarding my thoughts on God/Jesus. What I'm trying to say it was only until recently that I was convinced that God and Jesus exist and are not the bad guys. I was exposed to many Christians during my life and I guess pretty much based some of my thoughts on what being a Christian means by the majority of those I knew. That's just it though... it never became real until I met God and Jesus one on one. I had to put away those things that I thought being a Christian was, which during that time I detested, and allow God/Jesus to speak to me. As Lori pointed out it is a personal relationship...not what brother or sister so and so believes it to be. I was raised in church during my youth... and yes, knew all about God/Jesus via the bible and sermons etc... As Lori pointed out though..it's not what you know it's who you know. I can say this only because I have experienced this for myself. I think that what brings a person to the Lord in a personal relationship varies from person to person. Which stands to reason for we are all individuals and that is how God sees us. Prior to my personal relationship with the Lord I hated Jesus. My heart was dark and cold where He and God were concerned. I believed that Jesus was a good man turned bad. Then one day... I met God and His son, Jesus. My life has been changed...my outlook has changed..my heart has changed. I just did not wake up and change my outlook on life one day. People do not change just like that without a reason. I went from hate to love and understanding. This was done only by the Lord. A person once told me that although you cannot physically see God...you can see the changes that He makes in the lives of others. Just as you cannot see the wind..you can feel it and see where it blows..leaves, grass, etc...
This does not mean I am perfect by any means...not in the least. I fall..but, my God lifts me up. I am learning this all too well
The only thing that made me believe was meeting God/Jesus. Even if the Bible was a 100% correct...that is not what saves others. What does is Jesus Christ.
Sincerely,
Flash


Me:
this link (http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000164.html)
this link (http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000180.html)


So God does prove His existence, He does so by the change of our hearts, the very thing that He came in the flesh to deal with.


Now I like Tiassa¡¦s post. This makes a lot of sense however, I would argue that whilst comprehending an infinite anything is probably beyond the capabilities of the human brain (at least at this time) Seeing proof of it isn¡¦t. For example Pi is an infinite (as far as we can tell) fraction. We can see this and prove it using mathematics. We don¡¦t need to understand or even fully comprehend an infinite god In order for there to be proof of a God. However purely in the Christian sense of God this doesn¡¦t apply anyway as in accordance with the bible he has proved his existence in the past and therefore should be able to again.
Corp. Hudsons last post really sums it up and unfortunately is the clinching argument against the whole thing for me (at least in so far the Christian faith is concerned). If the Christian God where real as per the Christian belief system then he would know that in order to convince me he would have to provide proof. He would also know that it is unreasonable to expect an educated intelligent individual with a mind of his own to believe something purely based on the words of others. Especially given the wealth of other ideas, faiths and beliefs in the world almost all of which sound at least vaguely plausible if taken at face value.
The only other option is that he doesn¡¦t care if I believe in him or not and that pretty much goes against the whole concept of the church.
A final note, if a man (or woman) acted as the Christian god is depicted to then he would be considered unreasonable to the point of insanity. True?
Comments, insults, come backs?


So you want convincing? Do it by God¡¦s instructions and grace, then you will have the proof in your own life. The only way you will know 100% for sure is to let Him change your heart.

You won¡¦t have every answer, you will know though that He is real because He has dealt with you as an individual and changed your heart.

Allcare

Tony H2o


[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited July 20, 2000).]

ony--

Of people needing some sense of proof about God ... I side with Douglas Adams that any definitive proof of God necessarily indicates God's nonexistence. The argument, attributed to the ficticious philosopher Oolon Colophid, simply concluded that God's existence depends on faith, and that any proof defeats the need for faith, thus eliminating faith, which is God's sustenance.

Or something like that.

But ...
What ever happened to a simple faith A childlike faith or coming to know God as someone we can totally trust?

As a thin analogy: I'm not a gun person. I don't hunt, I don't carry one to protect me against the big, bad world. I've had people tell me that I really should go hunting, and then my perverse desire to not kill things for sport would go away. See, the problem there is that in order to test their experiment, I'm already actualizing against my own standard. In order to demonstrate that it's not worth it to kill randomly, I must first kill randomly.

Such is the case with most religions. I don't find it an unfair generalization to say that among the contemporary faith ideas of modern Christianity is that non-Christians, by the fact of their non-participation, have no right to be critical of Christianity. Thus, in order to have the right to be critical, it's advised that they let Jesus into their hearts, and become something they're not in order to find out if it's worth it. Of course, once you're in, that is, truly in, to that acceptable degree, there is no logical out. To leave is to invite fire and torture onto yourself, conceptually. In order to demonstrate why one does not want to be religious, they must undertake the faith. That aspect of it is a crock. I think of all the times Lori has advised me to just accept Jesus, and suddenly I'm left, thinking, What would that do? Oh, right, it would incite me to stop observing these things, thus making them as nonexistent as I'm told they really are.

So, apparently, in order to know that my idea is true enough to not be morally offensive, I have to give the idea up.

In that sense, it would be much more credible to the idea if people didn't have to give up their objections before they found out if the counterassertion that the objections aren't real is true.

To wit: So you want convincing? Do it by God¡¦s instructions and grace, then you will have the proof in your own life. The only way you will know 100% for sure is to let Him change your heart.

To forego the question is the only way to answer it ...?

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

You have made some very good points..and I'd like to say that I do understand very well what you mean. "Just have a little faith and Jesus can be your saviour too"... pretty rich, huh?

I'd like to share a bit about what happened to me. You have been around here long enough to have witnessed the way I believed..the way I ranted...the ugliness that sometimes(more often than not) just flowed out of me on this board. Now, do you really think I just woke up and said..ok, God...I believe in you and accept Jesus into my heart? NOT! Honestly, it was the furthest thing from my mind to do so. I'm going to make a very long story short and just put it this way. I realize this might sound a bit crazy to you..but, here goes: I experienced God speaking to me VERY CLEARLY. No, it was not an audible voice...but His voice came through loud and clear on the inside. Now, the things He shared with me are things I would not have just told myself...and His words just came in like a flood... I cannot find the words to express everything that I have experienced and how my life has changed since. Now, I argued with God at first...there was not a prayer of ok, change my life to prove to me you are real type of thing. Rather, at first I agrued..then, I listened...and asked more questions....and listened...etc.... during that time in speaking with God it was as if my ice cold heart began to melt...and where there was so much hatred toward God/Jesus ...a love came in like I have not experienced before. Believe me...this is not something I made up in my head. I can testify that it is very real. So....do I regret it? Not at all...I am thankful that my eyes and heart were opened up.

Remember Tony's story of how he came to know God? Tony did not say a prayer to God in the beginning... God spoke to him and showed him some things... So I guess what I'd like to point out is that people like Tony or myself...how can you explain the changes?

What did he tell you?



[This message has been edited by Infinity (edited July 21, 2000).]

Flash--

The biggest problem I have with religious visions is, simply, that I've experienced a number of supernatural things which I prefer to write to natural--perhaps extreme, but natural nonetheless--causes. In fact, Lori and I are arguing over the religious visions part of my experiences in the Religion is a Joke thread.

The reason I prefer natural causes to supernatural or divine causes of events is that, were I to award credibility to the notion that I had two proper religious experiences, they would not speak well of the state of the world I live in. Furthermore, even though there was a sense of epiphany about it, as I generally realized a specific way of communicating a certain idea, retrospect describes a psychological process at work.

Were I to stand up on a soapbox and tell every Christian that Jesus told me he's embarrassed by the common church service, by stupid political tactics both within the churches and in the churches' interactions with their neighborhoods; that he feels mocked at the confounding logical puzzles attributed to his name; that he cannot believe the way the flock behaves ... were I to stand up and proclaim that, what good am I doing? The vague details I've tried to reconstruct for Lori, but what I'll never be able to convey is the sense of exasperation which possessed the Wise Son. It has just occurred to me that I never noticed if he was still bleeding .... (hmmm.)

Were I to give the full force of the experience its due credit as an absolutely true event, I would be compelled to shout and rage like an old-school Ranter, though in truth there's nothing productive about this method to me.

But ... of the psychology: Would it change the notion to know that, until I was exposed to Salvador Dali, my favorite painting of Christ had been Botticelli's Man of Sorrows? Would it change the notion of my experience's credibility to know that the reason I love that painting--to this very day--is the expression of absolute disbelief and dejection on the Wise Son's face. The dignity about it is the eternal humanity about him: Well, that certainly went over about as well as the bit with the Tree, didn't it?

That his attitude and wisdom reflect my preexisting psychology surprises me none. That's why I typically doubt my own religious visions as absolutely true interventions of a God on High. Now, any of those God-within-the-self ideas offers a sense of credibility; is it any real surprise, then, that I bear heavy sympathies toward these philosophies?

How the hell was this relevant ....

Oh, that's right. ;)

Okay ... of your recent conversion, let me sincerely say that I'm happy you've found something worth devoting that kind of affection to. I do truly hope it leads you to happiness.

But ... if I doubt the kinds of divine machinations as the force of divine interaction, that is, Tony's or Lori's experiences with God, or even your own, it's because I feel I must. On one level, I accept them as real (inasmuch as I accept my own), but I'm quite sure that the reality to which I refer reflects little of the reality of Christian faith. I won't tell you it's all in your mind, but I never do know what to think or say. That the human mind could create such an experience itself, I have no doubt; however, this does not mean that I declare such experiences to be so. Accepting these events and processes as divine means accepting my own, and that implies that I would be choking back the anger I would feel at how bloody disorderly His House looks these days; and that would nullify the whole operation. (There is also the statistical angle: Yeah, after nearly two-thousand years, Jesus picks me, a smartmouthed, slacker high-schooler to let in on the secret .... :D That idea just slays me.)

I can only wish you the best of blessings in your new venture; and I can always hope that your bright mind will not be plagued by the superstitions and difficulties that so often manifest themselves in the execution of faith and set people like me to whining about it. In fact, I might also hope that you would be able to shake the dust out of a few of those belfries, so to speak.

But now that you're in ... how easy would it be to walk out? ;)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:


------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

It would be terribly difficult to walk out now. You think it's bizarre that He would choose you to share this with? Why? It makes sense to you, what He said right? It makes sense to me too. Everything He says does. So Jesus told you how disappointed He was in organized religion? And you have been out here for forever shouting about how you can't believe in Jesus because of the sins of the church?! Come here and let me slap your ass silly!!!! What the hell is wrong with you dude? You know as well as I do that He was talking to you. How do you rationalize ignoring that? How do you get off dissing HIM of all beings? You're a pussy Tiassa. He loves you. What are you afraid of? Do you not believe it was Him? What is your deal exactly? God comes and vents His frustrations with you, which you share with Him, and you just say who cares? Have some balls dude. God doesn't go around sharing that kind of info for nothing you know. You're special, like everybody else. ;)

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Tiassa,

First, I want to thank you for sharing all that you did. I have not witnessed you doing so to this extent- in regards to this topic- and to be quite truthful...I'm thrilled! :D :D :D :D

I think that I understand now why you have guarded yourself so or at least why you feel like you do. That is quite a burden to carry when you accept what God has shared with you to be true. With it, at the time, I'm sure you must have felt a pain and sadness that may have seemed overwhelming. I mean..afterall, it was God's cry from His heart that He chose to share with you...and thus, you began to see this situation not with your own eyes, but His. Wow, Tiassa, wow!

Were I to stand up on a soapbox and tell every Christian that Jesus told me he's embarrassed by the common church service, by stupid political tactics both within the churches and in the churches' interactions with their neighborhoods; that he feels mocked at the confounding logical puzzles attributed to his name; that he cannot believe the way the flock behaves ... were I to stand up and proclaim that, what good am I doing?

What good would you be doing? You'd help wake up the church, Tiassa. Sure, some wouldn't take the message all that well..and then some may begin to see just exactly what you did and begin to change their lives. You know the line from the song Pass it on, "it only takes a spark to get a fire going".

What Jesus told you reminds me of the visions that John experienced in Revelations. Remember the letters written to the different churches? Some were pretty hard to take for those churches, ya know? But my friend, that is how we grow. Knowledge is power.

But now that you're in ... how easy would it be to walk out?

How easy? I think that at some point in time a lot have walked away...but..how long can that last? I think it is important that we ask ourselves just why we are walking away. Yes, it sometimes seems like a bitter pill to take when the Lord shares something like what He shared with you. Remember the story of Jonah and the Whale? Remember Jonah wanted to do anything but to deliver the message to Nineveh? Point blank...he ran. This huge whale swallowed Jonah...to me, the whale just represents a place/state of mind that we end up in when we run from God...a place that separates us from Him.
The only thing that holds us back is our choice to stay in that state. As you know, Jonah chose not to remain in the belly of the whale..and was brought back by picking up the phone of prayer with God. God heard Jonah and delivered him. I do not think at that point that Jonah went ahead and delivered this message to Nineveh out of fear...but, rather because he knew it was for the good of this city and most importantly because God had told him to do so.

Yeah, after nearly two-thousand years, Jesus picks me, a smartmouthed, slacker high-schooler to let in on the secret .... That idea just slays me.)

Tiassa, come on...why not you??? God sees into our very hearts...He knows us better than we know ourselves. Do not doubt that beyond that smartmouth kid God saw and still does see exactly what is in your heart...and yes, you ARE very special! :D

Take care, friend!!!!!

Flash



[This message has been edited by Flash (edited July 27, 2000).]

Man, was I lippy last night! It was the beer. Anyway, Tiassa, what could you do? You asked what you could do with this info. With this message from God. Uh, excuse me, but you could be an ACTUAL Christian. You and me and Flash and Tony are Christians, and for as many mistakes as we may make, I like to think that in this particular area, being organized religion, I think we may actually do a little good to offset some of the negativity associated with it. You know, my brother, the atheist, tells me all the time that I should join a church. It's so important to him that I join a church. He doesn't get it. He thinks THAT'S what religion IS. Going to church. Doing things. "Worshipping". Life is worshipping, and I don't WANT to associate myself with the same people that turned me away from God for so long in the first place! Why would I? THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS. THEY'RE NOT THE CHURCH. NOT THE CHURCH THAT IT TALKS OF IN THE BIBLE. NOT THE CHURCH THAT WILL BE RAPTURED. Believe me, after the rapture, there won't be that many empty pews. I watch my church on TV. I choose who interprets my scripture, and I interpret their interpretation, and sometimes it jives and sometimes it doesn't. I see no need whatsoever to sit around singing queer songs or practice rituals of any kind. Nothing matters except what's in your heart. If you're really doing these things FOR GOD, and that's your way of saying "Hey God, I love you, and I appreciate you", then fine. But I have my ways too. And if you're not really doing these things FOR GOD, and you're just doing it cause it's expected, or to belong to a group, or because someone told you to, then it's pointless. You may as well be picking your nose.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

OK ... now I'm just flat-confused.

It bothers people none that both visions perfectly reflect my psychology at the time? That a dejected, extremely tired Christ was exactly my most sympathetic notion of him? That a Devil with whom I could be comfortably cryptic and toward whom I could show demonstrative sympathy (and, in some senses, eventually, empathy) reflects nothing of the place of origin of this experience?

For any god-force to "accommodate" my human prejudices in a tailored vision, apparition, revelation, or some such, I would expect either a person--such as a familiar version of Christ or an immediately accessible notion of the Devil--or something particular to my abstractions, say, a talking cat or floating Cheshire grin. But to see, in the case of the Devil, Anton bloody LaVey ... oh, my ... I can't tell you how important the American Church of Satan was to me at the time. That I disagreed with the LaVey-Devil is predictable, as I never felt comfortable with his relegation of Satan to an opponent of Christianity, was and is a particularly important idea to me when I weigh the possibilities of what happened.

I find myself tempted to quote Alice in Chains: Name your God and bleed the freak. Generally, I assume it to be about drugs, but it works strangely here: set religious form invites the negative things about religion. Proscribing God's possibilities with names and codes of conduct, with Catechisms, Sees, Bulls, Creeds ... it's all demonstrative. I remember listening to various petitions of goodwill offered up during morning prayers in Catholic school. By his body and blood ... I could just imagine him, during those prayers, bleeding eternally to redeem the myriad, ludicrous beggings--people seeking his invervention for such things as only people themselves could accomplish. Every time someone prays that "the Lord will change your heart", or anyone's heart ... come on, he's writhing in agony at the prospect of coercing someone to Love him in this most unholy, unhealthy way.

It's almost like a dependency--in the tower of Heaven there lays a redeemer, issuing forth his very blood that he might prevent people from figuring out that he shouldn't be doing this for them. But all because they ask. Consider Jesus' position for a moment: he cannot say no. Bleed him all we need as a human race, but for Jesus to say no would be to break his own heart and that would be the end, for no soul, by whatever commission, can live with a broken heart. The faithful keep asking, and he keeps giving, and it matters not to the petitioners whether or not he can afford it because his very Gift is that this sacrifice he will always make. But nobody wants to figure out that there are other ways to receive him. The knowledge we could gain from him is immense; his transcendence may be unique, but it is necessary, else it would not be. But we seek not his wisdom as much as we do his redemption, his continued wounding and eternal labor.

These little common sins may lead my lust
To more deceitful vices, to the deeds
At whose sweet name the side of Jesus bleeds
In sympathy new-nurtured by the trust
Of man's forgiveness that his passion breeds--
These petty crimes !
God grant they grow intense in newer, worthier times !


I reiterate this portion of an old Aleister Crowley poem (1898), which I had posted in another thread (the whole citation I made is at http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000241.html ... ).

I reiterate this because I think it speaks well here.

Maybe the Devil has won. Maybe that's why I want so badly to deny such religious visions. Maybe the Devil has won because we prefer the calm of Jesus' redemption and forgiveness while ignoring the ways to learn from him so we don't have to keep begging ridiculous favors. God may certainly well exist, but the cosmology looks nothing like any Christian notion I've ever heard; it cannot, lest Jesus be the Eternal Masochist. That he had a unique relationship with whatever God is, I can accept. That only he, and not Muhammed or Buddha or anyone else in the world is that "special", I can't quite stomach. To reduce God to the mysteries of one specific religion or another seems ludicrous.

There's a reason I own a Bible--research. But I've found that other tales speak equally powerful truths. Other forms of the truth are far more relevant to me.

The words are leaving me ... strange. :confused:

But, now that I've vomited out the sentiments behind my religious psychology ... do you see why I feel my religious visions were merely psychological constructions? Maybe I'd feel differently if I hadn't been asleep when they commenced. I might add, with less venom that it might seem, that had I not been surrounded by such a ridiculous, Christian version of reality at the time, I might have known what I was telling myself--as such--much, much earlier. Don't get me wrong--I missed the point of those dreams/visions (circle one) for a number of years.

I ask you this: Were I Buddhist, would I have dreamed Buddha, or Christ? Were I Muslim, which Devil would I have met? Why is it that I never directly interacted with what I call the Goddess until after I left the church and settled into healthy, random paganism? (I say "healthy" because my first occultisms merely reinforced the hideous duality of Christian "good vs. evil", a most unhealthy way of thinking, as I would eventually resolve.)

The few times I sympathize with other people's notions of God, I generally feel dishonest, because nothing anyone can tell me about God can ever encompass what It is. This is well and fine, but it's not necessarily worth the appearance of fighting with someone over God, and it seems that many people believe that what they believe is all there is to God. Thus, I find myself looking at someone's image of God, which certainly constitutes an inferior sense of God than my own, because it is limited by the capacity of the person's belief.

And that, incidentally, is why I side with atheism so often. My word God simply indicates all there is. I assert no consciousness, but the fact remains that within the Universe, there are certain things that will produce certain effects, and some of these we call good and some of these not as good. Those things which are good--beneficial to the whole context of human life--are the "truths" of "God". Consider a "divine" event: does it exist? If so, it has a measurable effect on the physical, mundane environment in which it occurs; in that sense, we just haven't learned how to measure those effects. Once we do, and explain a few processes at work, the "supernatural" will become, simply, natural.

The more we understand about the Universe, the more we understand our part in it. That, simply put, is the Way of God, no matter how you cut it.

Wow, is it schizophrenic enough, yet? I feel at the moment like I'm arguing two variably harmonious theses at the same time, so if I don't make sense, you're not the only one who thinks so.

My starting point: The psychology of my own visions dictates that they aren't legitimate divine interactions, lest we begin to adopt a notion similar to the tale of the Shekinah. That's the point, that they're not real. This means nothing relative to whatever God is. Period.

But I'm down to rambling, so I'll post again and pick up a couple of specific points from Lori & Flash that I'd love to get back to specifically.

thanx for putting up w/it,
Tiassa :cool:


------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Flash,

Youmakamegrinlotsa :D :D :D :D :D

You wise monkey you.

Tiassa,

Mail me to talk if you want to about things you have seen, and things that you truly believe. We've danced a bit but it maybe time to waltz ;)

Allcare

Tony H2o

PS Thanks all for the kind sentiments, don't get to excited though ;) (as if) I'm only passing by quickly.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Mail me, if you want to talk.

I do believe you have something more to say than

prove it

Allcare

Tony

aaaaa...,

shut up or say something meaningful !

Don't take it's bait! I just posted a complaint to Dave, knowing full well where any response to it's posts would get me.

Bandwidth is a terrible thing to waste.

I wanted to pick up on a couple of things I didn't include in last night's mad rant ....

Flash

Quote & reflection ....

What Jesus told you reminds me of the visions that John experienced in Revelations. Remember the letters written to the different churches? Some were pretty hard to take for those churches, ya know? But my friend, that is how we grow. Knowledge is power.

Certes such things are how we grow, but I question whether that specific growth has ever taken place. I refer to Steven Brust's work of fiction, Jhereg, in which Our Hero, Vlad, discusses with his assistant the image of the man atop their organized-crime scheme. Vlad notes that the #1 never made it to the top, per se, but made it somewhere, and called that "the top".

In the year before my parents' marriage failed, I presented that question to my mother ... whether they had achieved happiness, or achieved something and called it happiness. Given the actual events that occurred--the failure of the marriage--it's worth noting that I've never received an honest answer from her on this one.

Thus I ask, of the lessons learned since the revelation: Have people gotten the point? Or have they adopted some idea and called it the point? (Here we reenter the idea of whether God creates humans, or humans create God.)

I hear many faithful quote the Revelation; I'm actually accustomed to being threatened with it, but that's actually beside the points at hand. I wonder, though, if those points upon which our Kind Author chose to advise his brethren ever really sank in. For all the people who choose to learn such lessons, I still wonder about Christianity itself, for it perpetuates most of its negative aspects.

And in that sense, I want to throw a stupid idea or two at you:

* Remember when you had to behave on school field trips because "You represent the Screaming Eagles" (or other school mascot)?
* Ever notice how the War Against Drugs is fought over its most negative manifestations? We hear about the "dangers" of drugs and work, so that they test people before employment, yet 1998 survey numbers indicate that people who use drugs are no more or less likely to cause or be involved in an industrial accident? And then these quiet users have to fend off the notion of how many drug users (on the job) are in industrial accidents: hey, you didn't know they were on drugs (at work) until the accident, right? Yet as each week, month, and year goes by, we never see the arguments evolve past their rhetorical stupidities.

I don't understand why Christianity's credibility is supposed to be independent of its individual members' actions. After all, as we blame drugs or rock music for childrens' misbehavior, can we not assign the burden of Christianity's crimes to the Christian paradigm?

At this particular rhetorical point, it seems that Christianity has little to do with God. (I reiterate, at this point ...)

But Christians do represent Christianity, and the sum effect of their works indicate that I should be as many miles from Christian activity as the Universe will allow.

Tiassa, come on...why not you??? God sees into our very hearts...He knows us better than we know ourselves. Do not doubt that beyond that smartmouth kid God saw and still does see exactly what is in your heart...

True enough, why not me ... it would continue a long tradition of God bequeathing wisdom to humanity via societal stations neither equipped nor prepared (nor, probably, willing) to transmit the message.

Such ideas, in my corner of the universe, tend toward megalomania. That's a long process, though, and probably irrelevant in the end.

But you're suggesting that God puts conditions in place which breed smartmouthed slackers, or criminals, or whatnot, and then ... what, commissions them to do work which his apparent prevailing wisdom indicates would be better invested in someone with brighter credibility? I mean, I wasn't on drugs yet, but everyone knew it was a matter of time.

Or is there a lesson there--that God would choose a community's Devil? (That's a better question for Lori, I think, but ....)

Lori

I absolutely need to start with this one:

I watch my church on TV. I choose who interprets my scripture, and I interpret their interpretation, and sometimes it jives and sometimes it doesn't.

Are we talking about televangelism, or the derivation of elegant and godly ideas from exemplary fictional, nonfictional, and quasi-fictional "entertainment" productions? Are we talking Dave Roever and the like, or really good stories with much to teach? It's actually quite important, in its own right.

Now, this one's a little tougher, but ...

Come here and let me slap your ass silly!!!! What the hell is wrong with you dude? You know as well as I do that He was talking to you. How do you rationalize ignoring that? How do you get off dissing HIM of all beings? You're a pussy Tiassa.

Dissing him? Dissing him? Come now ... by the standard of how I see it, that disrespect is coming from you. Everything seems to lead back to the very narrow view of what God is that troubles the Jesus I encountered/invented (circle one).

Meow. Should I tell you how much of a cock you're being? :p (Gotta get my cheap shots in, too :D)

Look ... if my vision's true, then even You have it wrong, Lori. Period. And I'm not entrusted to lead this flock from their despair; if it happens, it happens. But it's not my job, per se; that is, if something I do in life causes that much of a Christian uproar that a billion consciences change for the better overnight, then so be it. But if I set out with the specific purpose of changing Christianity, then I'm no better than Athanasius or Marcellus, whose vision of Christianity was more politically motivated than anything else.

Imagine that we're driving along Christian Highway, toward Paradise City. The car (religion) breaks down. Now, it matters not how far I go to get the parts and how hard I work to fix the car if Paradise City isn't on the highway I'm traveling. Even more, what if Paradise City's just a false advertisement to entice people to drive by all the nice shops alongside the road? Sooner or later, we must, necessarily, arrive somewhere, but is that somewhere at God's bosom, or is it somewhere we choose to call God's bosom?

Imagine asking, compelling, cajoling, or outright forcing over a billion people to abandon their old notions of one God in favor of a new version of "the same God". Wait, we don't have to imagine--history shows us exactly what happens.

The first key is that, while Jesus may have access to the universal Holy of Holies, he is not the only way, despite what two-thosuand years' worth of misguided philosophies might assert.

We're still bleeding the Wise Son. It's like a drug. He has other gifts to offer, yet nobody chooses to see them--it's apparently about right and authority and redemption. The most Christian thing one can do is to live well and stop begging forgiveness, justification, and redemption.

Okay ... the clock's ticking, I'm running out of words save for those on the wall screaming at me to pretend I have work to do.

I need a cigarette ... ;)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited July 28, 2000).]

Tiassa,

Thus I ask, of the lessons learned since the revelation: Have people gotten the point? Or have they adopted some idea and called it the point? (Here we reenter the idea of whether God creates humans, or humans create God.)

Excellent questions, Tiassa! I feel that for where the majority stands the answer would have to sadly be, no. The many different christians I know have been spoon-fed big time. Their religious views are based on what they have been taught by their sunday school teachers, pastors, etc... don't get me wrong here..learning from others is fine and well..but, I feel the problem is they are being lazy by not seeking out the truth for themselves. So what happens here is what they believe to be true are simply reflections of the views of others. What's wrong with this picture is they stop there...they do not seek out truth for themselves with God/Jesus. I don't feel so much that people have created God..but more so that they have put God into a box.

At this particular rhetorical point, it seems that Christianity has little to do with God. (I reiterate, at this point ...)

But Christians do represent Christianity, and the sum effect of their works indicate that I should be as many miles from Christian activity as the Universe will allow.

Well, you hit the nail right on the head with that one. I do understand and agree with what you're saying here. I still can't help but feel that the whole problem is that the focus is not on God..but, rather on the adoptive teaching by others. Like I've said..I do not have anything against listening to others teach...my problem is that they stop right there. It's as if there is not a real true blue relationship with God/Jesus ...which is sad. It has been my experience that we "christians" are QUICK to judge...as if we get off on it...and that is so far from what God has called us to do. It's not our place to do so. I think that at times we forget the scripture of, "judge not least you be judged according to YOUR OWN measure".

But you're suggesting that God puts conditions in place which breed smartmouthed slackers, or criminals, or whatnot, and then ... what, commissions them to do work which his apparent prevailing wisdom indicates would be better invested in someone with brighter credibility? I mean, I wasn't on drugs yet, but everyone knew it was a matter of time.

Or is there a lesson there--that God would choose a community's Devil? (That's a better question for Lori, I think, but ....)

Deep thoughts there...(ouch my brain is hurting LOL)
Well, Tiassa... I can only offer my thoughts here, which is not saying much!! LOL

Remember, knowledge is potential power. Meaning we have two choices ...accept it, learn by it, and change accordingly- or ignore it.
Remember the story about Saul/Paul? I mean this dude hated christians and caused all kinds of problems and torture toward them. He certainly was not one who was just a passive non-believer.
Then wham... he took something he learned from Jesus and changed his life. Even the disciples were leery of this dude after his conversion to christianity. Now, can you imagine what he must have initially felt when he started preaching the word of God to others??????? I'm sure all kinds of doubts entered into his mind...not to mention feeling unworthy to do so..perhaps that God could have certainly picked someone else who was viewed by others as ummm credible??? ;) Regardless, he didn't let that stop him...and there was great lessons learned by this guy. Here's the kicker...I believe it was by the power of the Lord that Paul's messages were received by others. We are only vessels...God fills us ..and that is what pours out to others.

Take care!!!

Flash

Lori,

Meow. Should I tell you how much of a cock you're being? (Gotta get my cheap shots in, too )

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, he got ya here girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tiassa,

I hope you do not mind me poking my nose in a bit here....

The first key is that, while Jesus may have access to the universal Holy of Holies, he is not the only way, despite what two-thosuand years' worth of misguided philosophies might assert.

I'm very interested in reading your beliefs regarding your above statement. Here is my only problem with it.... *sigh* and yeah, I believe that the Bible is not translated a 100%... but, what about the scriptures that basically state Jesus is the only way to get to God..."no man comes to the father but by me." What if that is true??

Flash--

Little tired right now, but I wanted to offer the feeblest of answers.

One of the possibilities of the world that I do consider, and it is one I feel is at least as strong a possibility as Jesus as the One and Only True Son of God is that Jesus was a political reformer.

* Church and governance were very closely knit among the Hebrews.
* When the Wise Son said, "Give to God what is God's, and Caesar what is Caesar's," or thereabout ... it's not the most orthodox statement for the time.
* Jesus' criticisms of various groups (Pharisees, &c.) often centered around issues indicating that the groups worried more about politics and its implications (appearance, such as Jesus' summary of hypocrites).

It well could be that "no man comes to the Father, but by me" was a political boast, that Jesus' ideas of social reform would create a more godly society for the Jewish people.

Let me know ... I'm happy to give it more thought when there's better electricity about my brainpan ... :confused:

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I don't have a lot of time...I'll come back to this fo sho, but just a couple of things...

One, yes sir, you know that I'm painfully aware of what a cock I am. :)

Two, you're a Christian, so congratulations. *Lori passing out from overwhelming amazement*

You know what? You'd make a great spy.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Oxygen,

Originally posted by Oxygen:
Don't take it's bait! I just posted a complaint to Dave, knowing full well where any response to it's posts would get me.

Bandwidth is a terrible thing to waste.

Good for you! It seems TheWord was kicked off for much, much less, so hopefully Dave will get rid of this annoyance as well. At least TheWord had something different to post each time, and some of the people here found it to be of some value to them. This pest has absolutely nothing of value to say to anyone, but that doesn't seem to stop him/her from saying it.

How about it, Dave - can you banish it to the cornfield for us?


------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Tiassa,

Ok, I'm back...

First, you say that Christians represent Christianity, and that's the problem you have with faith in Christ? But Tiassa, don't you see that Christians very, very much DO represent Christianity, and that's all the more reason TO have faith in Christ? If Christians were not sinners, and organized religion was not hindered with egos, and greed, and Satan himself...if Christians were "fixed", or somehow made sinless, or perfect, or if ANYTHING in this world were perfect, or were THAT easy, then IT WOULD DISPROVE THE RELIGION. You act as if the reality of the situation here on earth, whether you're looking at the church or anything else DOESN'T match EXACTLY to what it says in the Word, when it DOES. So there ya go, I'm not sure STILL what your malfunction is regarding this issue?????

AND THEN, ha ha! You're so busted dude. Here YOU are with a message from God. Something to say, something to do, something to teach, something to prove...and what do you do? Nothin'. Doubt yourself. Tell yourself you're not good enough. It wouldn't do any good. Well guess what homey? You're no worse off than anyone of us human beings, so get over it. I won't be a Christian because they're not perfect. And I can't be a Christian because I'm not perfect. Guess what &%$#^? Nobody's perfect...THAT'S THE WHOLE FLIPPIN' POINT OF THE FAITH!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! *sigh* Ok...

Also, when it comes to the evangelists....I pick and choose. Just use thoust noggin to filter thine info like a responsible little human is all. You know, you've got God right there in your ear, in your heart, you've got the word, you've got eyeballs and a brain. Trust Him....He won't steer you wrong if you do. I can tell a phony baloney preacher from a mile away. I can also tell if someone knows what they're talking about, and has lived it, and is living it. There are a lot of good people out there who have dedicated a good part of their lives to interpreting scripture and teaching it, and I appreciate that. But Rod Parsley? I'd like to shoot him every time he fake cries or fake speaks in tongues....he makes me sick. You just have to use some judgement, and listen to God yourself.

Oh, and you're the "devil" huh? Oh, don't you wish. ;) Give me a break dude...God loves you just as much as He does everyone else. And you're just as "good" as everyone else. I know you. You're no frickin' devil.

And did it ever occur to you that you don't have to change the world? You can and you will, BUT you don't have to. That's not what's most important, that's like an effect of it. What's most important is that YOU know Jesus. And that YOU understand how much He loves you, and what that means, because of who He is. If you let Him change your heart, then you WILL change the world, whether you like it or not. I mean honestly, do you think that in order to know Christ you have to overthrow organized religion????? Let's just leave them alone, and belong to our own church. Christ's church. We don't even need a "temple", He can live in our hearts.

As far as there only being one way to God, through Jesus, believe me, it just doesn't work any other way. The word and the faith is as such that the religion looses all credibility whatsoever if you choose another path to salvation. It's impossible according to the faith. You know that there is good and there is evil in the word. There is one source of good and one source of evil. There are very specific beings delineated, one God, and many angels, those being good (of God), or evil (of Satan). There are no third parties in the Christian faith, and I think one would be hard-pressed to try to weasle that in without blowing the entire concept to smithereens don't you think? The Christian faith is very complicated and the concepts are very intertwined and dependent upon one another as truth. You can't isolate one aspect of it, and change it, or falsify it, and expect the rest of it to make sense. It's perfect that way.

You mentioned somewhere that you could have been imagining this little trip. I think it's something that went on in your head definately, but I don't think it was so much of a head trip, as a soul trip, and I think you would probably agree with that. I think you know something weird was going on. But ultimately, you're the only one who can determine that. Also, I myself have never, ever had a vision, or a prophetic dream, or been "visited". God speaks in a telepathic way to my heart. I hear Him in my head. That's it. Now some weird things have happened in my life....like regarding circumstance....things you may call very coincedental, or unlikely, or answered prayer, or even miracles....but no laser light show here. It may have been Satan, but it depends. Let me ask you....did your experience bring you closer to Jesus, or take you further from Him? Did your conversation address the question about the one path to salvation? Were you left with the idea that the sins of christians were a good reason not to believe in Jesus, or a good reason to believe? If your vision was indeed a spirit, would it have passed the spirit test? The test IS a proclaimation that Jesus is the Son of God. Ok, enough for now. Later, taters!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 31, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 31, 2000).]

Does God love the Devil?

Lori--

First, you say that Christians represent Christianity, and that's the problem you have with faith in Christ? But Tiassa, don't you see that Christians very, very much DO represent Christianity, and that's all the more reason TO have faith in Christ?

Take any question of faith and briefly survey what the philosophers, pundits, and others have figured out. Now, how does that "answer", per se, apply itself to the execution of practical faith?

Consider the attempted banning of books for religious standards. This, in and of itself, seems like a small issue. Maybe in Keizer, Oregon, one overanxious member of the Kingdom Hall will protest McKammon's Demon Walk for its inclusion of a character named "Demon"; maybe, then, a Missouri Synod Lutheran will protest the book, "The Color Purple" for its allegedly gratuitous sexuality. While all that's going on, a man claiming to be Christian, claiming to represent "family" (read "Christian" or "Moral Majority") values, announces that part of his presidential strategy is to promise to obliterate the First Amendment over rap music. As individuals, we might assess that these people have become too zealous in their faith.

Yet what is the trend? There are a couple of common points to each of these:

* The standard advocated by the objecting party was based solely on personal interpretations of Christian faith--the personal interpretations of the objecting party.
* The essential message conveyed, the essential principle asked for reflects thus: My First Amendment rights, as an American Christian, are being violated by the presence of this literature which directly offends a narrow, subjective minority in this country, and the only way to make things right all around--that is, the only way to make things fair for everybody, is to tell the person I'm objecting to that s/he can't write/say/express (circle all) these things. In other words, the only way to make sure that everybody's First Amendment rights are protected is to deny them to the author of the offending work.

And it is a trend: L'Engle (A Wrinkle in Time, for anti-authoritarianism, lesbianism, occultism, and Communism); Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird, for blatantly indecent subject matter); Salinger (Catcher in the Rye, for advocating alcoholism, rebellion, and prostitution) ....

Now, at what point can we expect the average individual who has chosen Christ as his/her salvation to get the idea through his/her thick skull that this is not the way to solve the problem?!

That it continues to happen, and that the objectors' Christian neighbors never advise them openly, as part of the expository process, that their conduct is damaging, subjective, or outright wrong, demonstrates clearly that the Christian insititution fosters this kind of poor thinking in its individuals.

Try another one? Christians and AIDS: certes, there are a number of religious organizations in the world that are dealing with the AIDS crisis, but I might remind all of the American religious right's sentiments toward the AIDS crisis in the 1980's: that it was a Gay problem, and that we should let the sinners deal with it themselves; even as late as 1991, my Catholic school would not actively put down the notion that HIV was God's punishment for the nasty faggots. With AIDS blazing through the gay community, the Christians were happy to let it; with AIDS blazing through the IV-drug community, Christians were happy to let it. When AIDS blasted its way out of the gay and drug communities, it was time to blame the gays. At no point was there a change in the larger Christian conscience. It seems that all of these imperfect individuals contribute to a larger imperfection that is eating away the social conscience like cancer.

These conduct ideas reach all the way down to the mundane: it is part of the same intolerance that compelled my Missouri-Synod aunt to expel her own daughter from the house for the crime of seeing the move Last Temptation of Christ. It's the same intolerance that landed me in the Jesuits' office every time something weird happened around the school. It's the very same, permeating intolerance that originally convinced me that the grander philosophy could do nothing but inspire individuals to this kind of intellectual dullardness.

Now ... my father's fond of the idea of a tax rebellion. The idea being that the taxpayers, fed up with spending, disapprove of even the proper governmental expenditures (education, emergency services) in order to convey how unhappy they are about various governmental acts. This comes from the idea that everything's for sale in the world, and somebody's gotta pay for it. Well enough, but at what point does such a philosophy contradict one's articles of faith? How many Christians in this country are accustomed to routinely standing up to their Christian neighbors and effecting a change of community conscience? I would assert that Christianity has come too far in its effort to harmonize itself with the profiteering methods of the Capitalists, though I again point to Max Weber. But it seems like a lot of choices Christians make, as individuals, contribute to greater evils. Keep your kids off drugs? Sounds like a decent plan. But when does your Christian conscience tell you that the effort to do so has resulted in massive evil? What happens when your effort to keep your kids off drugs turns out to have the double-whammy of being hideously racist in its effects? (Look at cocaine sentencing for that: whereas black Americans have used crack cocaine more often than whites, and whereas white Americans have used powdered cocaine more often than blacks, why is it that 5 grams of the black man's drug is equivalent, for sentencing purposes, to 100 grams of the white man's drug while no chemical difference can be established?) What happens when your effort to keep your kids off drugs makes them more prone to take drugs (DARE)?

Where I'm going with that is that we have a number of difficulties which are all intertwined: drugs, violence, sex issues, racial tensions, ad nauseum. Yet nobody, Christian or otherwise, will consider these things as interrelated. Drugs--good issue. Prostitution--good issue. But how many people make the connection between drugs and prostitution? Okay, now what seems to be the solution? Stiffer sentences for drugs and prostitution. All the while feeding a prison industry that is privatized as a growth-industry. And yet the ministers and parents will tell their kids: God doesn't like drugs, though God made marijuana and coca. They'll tell the kids: God condemns prostitution, yet Jesus hung out with whores. They'll teach their kids to judge like all good, compassionate, Christian hearts should. Yet they'll never look at the problem and see how one aspect ties into the other.

To wit: I agree that Jesus doesn't like abortion. (Did you know there's an "Angel of Abortion"? Her name is Kasdaye, or Kasdeja.) Oh, and I'll even leave the murders of the doctors out of it. But ... if "Jesus" gets his way on abortion, you've got a hundred-thousand starving, abused, unwanted infants in the country. This, also, is a bad thing, and history shows we'll handle it by throwing people in prison.

So why not create a world in which abortions are less "necessary", as such? You know, one with a little less poverty, hopelessness, and so forth. Jesus hasn't delivered that yet, though part of the point is that I say it's not his job to do so.

All of this goes toward your question:

So there ya go, I'm not sure STILL what your malfunction is regarding this issue????

My malfunction, simply, is that the equation doesn't work. None of the people who choose to bear Christ's message are capable of demonstrating that they really know what the problem is. Those few who do might escape my notice, or yours, for the simple fact that they're being shouted out by a bunch of angry, undereducated faithful who are still worried that it's more sinful to take drugs than it is to let someone die because you think they're a sinner.

My malfunction comes from the myriad tales I've amassed over my short life, such as the "nightmare" post I put elsewhere. Sorry, but I need both my hands to count the number of girls I knew in high school who:

* Came from a "Christian" family
* Were sexually abused by their father, grandfather, or uncle, and
* Were punished for lying when they tried to tell someone.

This is in a Christian school. While I'm always happy that, in the case of the person I was closest to in this melodrama, the administration preferred let me handle the life-and-death matters. But I know I couldn't be everywhere, and Jesus sure had--in these kids minds--abandoned the battlefield. Where the hell were all those consciences that should have been saving these kids' sanity? Why were they condemning the sexuality of it instead of helping repair the crater blown in these kids' psyches?

Free speech, stupid legislation, abused kids ... the answer is uniformly simple: Christianity cannot and does not prepare the modern Christian to deal with reality in a socially-redeemable sense. While we're all grateful that Joe the Christian is there to offer compassion to Bob the HIV-Positive Teenager, we also have to wonder about Bob's dad, Frank, whose best Christian compassion was that he wasn't gonna have no buggerin' Sodomite befouling his home. That as many Christians as there are in the nation would rather turn their backs on that perverse compassion speaks much of the philosophy. But just like the appearance of misbehaving children lends to the notion that the parents' disciplinary philosophy is dysfunctional, so it is with Christian misbehavior: is this really the best the philosophy can inspire?

That, m'lady, is my major malfunction.

Christians have had two-thousand years, and they simply don't care about getting it right.

Here YOU are with a message from God. Something to say, something to do, something to teach, something to prove...and what do you do? Nothin'. Doubt yourself. Tell yourself you're not good enough. It wouldn't do any good.

That doesn't sound too different from Isaiah, or Amos, or any of the prophets really. Gee, am I now on that par? (I think not--I haven't eaten enough funny mushrooms yet.)

You're no worse off than anyone of us human beings, so get over it. I won't be a Christian because they're not perfect. And I can't be a Christian because I'm not perfect.

No, dear, I won't be a Christian because they won't. Get it through your head, please ... I don't object to imperfection in Christians. I object strenuously, however, to Christian apathy, to Christian hypocrisy, and to Christian aggression. These are the mainstays of the American Christian function.

I mean, Christ, by my way of seeing it, doesn't want these people on his side. Why should I throw my hat in with them?

Also, when it comes to the evangelists....I pick and choose. Just use thoust noggin to filter thine info like a responsible little human is all. You know, you've got God right there in your ear, in your heart, you've got the word, you've got eyeballs and a brain. Trust Him....He won't steer you wrong if you do. I can tell a phony baloney preacher from a mile away.

I will leave it at the idea that I hold a vastly different opinion of televangelism.

Oh, and you're the "devil" huh? Oh, don't you wish. Give me a break dude...God loves you just as much as He does everyone else. And you're just as "good" as everyone else. I know you. You're no frickin' devil.

I believe you've missed a point. I point toward my recent post to Flash:

But you're suggesting that God puts conditions in place which breed smartmouthed slackers, or criminals, or whatnot, and then ... what, commissions them to do work which his apparent prevailing wisdom indicates would be better invested in someone with brighter credibility? I mean, I wasn't on drugs yet, but everyone knew it was a matter of time.

We're speaking in the notion of being a community's devil, of the fact that God would put some sacred, necessary knowledge in the trust of someone that the community with which God wants to communicate does not trust.

The point being that, had I stood up and explained what God told me, as such, not only would I be generally ignored, but what attention I garnered would be devoted toward ensuring the death of such ideas. We're talking about a very convoluted community: The Jesuits took a group to Olympia, Washington, to protest against abortion on the state capitol steps--it was a chance to learn about Constitutional rights (free speech), and to do the work of God (protest medical procedures); for that day only, it was a suspendable (and even expulsory) to voice the opinion that abortion might be anything except the blackest and most evil of sins. (Of course, that really conflicted with their pregnancy policy: get knocked up in a back-alley rape, we'll expel you for your sinfulness. That day was the closest I ever came to wreaking physical damage on the people and buildings of the school.)

You see, regardless of what cheery notions of God you offer, quite simply, I was the community's Devil. Period. It matters not in this case what God thinks or what God wants. Why does God have the habit of investing his authority in the least respected corners of human society? The only people who would have looked to me expected me to lead them away from Christianity.

There are no third parties in the Christian faith, and I think one would be hard-pressed to try to weasle that in without blowing the entire concept to smithereens don't you think?

* no third parties: That, perhaps, is the problem. To wit: why can't computers "think"? Partially because they're limited to two options on the bit: Yes and No. What happens when we insert a Maybe into the mix? The computer must build selective criteria to establish the greatest benefit of the Maybe's possibilities. This criteria becomes subjective to the individual system. Hence we see the rise of "preference" in a computer, as such. Just a little brain-twister on the difference between two options and three.

* blowing the entire concept to smithereens: What, you're not prepared for that? Seems to me it's as statistically possible as anything else in the universe. See what happens when there's no "Maybe"?

Were you left with the idea that the sins of christians were a good reason not to believe in Jesus, or a good reason to believe? If your vision was indeed a spirit, would it have passed the spirit test?

What is "believing in Jesus"? To me, Jesus is someone I'd like to get together with, drink a beer and seek counsel. There's a few people on that list: Muhammed, Buddha, Gibran, Emma Goldman, Ranier Maria Rilke, &c. But part of what I think I'm objecting to is the notion of "believing in Jesus". It seems that much of that "belief" is what perpetuates our cocaine-like exploitation of his universal mercy. (Mercy Cartels!)

The sins of the Christians come from investing too much belief in Jesus. They are unable to perform their duties to God, except by Jesus' grace.

And I wanted to note that in no way did the vision pass muster as genuine. Too much of it is predictable, within my own frame of mind at the time. That was why I originally dredged it up, but that point has largely fallen into oblivion.

When was the last time God whispered to you and blew your moral assumptions out of the water?

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,
Whoaaaaaa, Dude!!!!!! That was quite a post!
*shaking head in amazement* I think I'm beginning to understand a bit why you hold such ideas of christianity being so far off from what God INTENDED them to be.

I agree with you about christians being the first to point fingers at others...you know..those who do not "fit" into THEIR mold of what THEY think a christian should be. Believe you me...that totally turned me off in a BIG way. This is how I see it. God does not control how others believe, behave, or think...be it christian or not. He offers spiritual guidance...BUT, it is up to each INDIVIDUAL how we receive and act upon such knowledge. Believe me...I've been through the whole, "rock music is the devil's way to get through to people to destroy their lives"...etc...... come on...I'm a lesbian for crying out loud!!!!!! LOL I've witnessed a lot of what you are talking about. Here is the thing....... those people who judge have no right to judge whatsoever! There is but one judge and that is God. I think it is important here to realize that what God views as sin and what others view as sin are more than likely two different things. We cannot live our lives according to how other christians say we must...but, rather as God leads us indivdiually- period. Are we to base our salvation on what "others" think or what God desires for us? I hope you would agree with the latter. Joe Blow, who maybe in 85% of the christians view agree with, doesn't mean squat! It all boils down to how God directs us individually. The reason I keep stating individually is because I feel that is how God deals with us. We are all different. What I'm trying to say here is I feel as we grow in the Lord..He gives us more knowledge which we then become accountable for. You wouldn't expect a 6 month old baby to have the same knowledge as one who is say 21 years old, right? I feel that is how God deals with us...according to our "spiritual growth" in Him. I will state again...what makes us a christian is our personal relationship with the Lord...PEIROD. Not that we believe the same way as Joe Blow or say the majority of those who believe in Christ do. A Personal relationship with God/Jesus here is the KEY. It is not important that you agree with the majority of the christans.... what is important is with God/Jesus. You have to remember here that to be a christian is to have a personal relatonship with God/Jesus...not that you agree with the majority of the other christians. You had mentioned something to the effect that Jesus is a dude you'd like to converse with over a beer ...share ideas etc.... I think that is great. My question then would be..what's stopping you?

Look, I understand all the anger towards the majority of the christian beliefs... I'll go as far to say that I agree that I feel they are wrong and in a sense it angers me as well. I know I am beginning to sound like a worn out broken record here..but, it is not important what so and so thinks..but what God/Jesus thinks.

I guess I keep pounding this in is because I too felt like you do. I thought the whole thing was a crock....the only thing that changed my mind and heart about it all was starting to communicate with God/Jesus.

You think that because you held the same views as to what you were shown in your vision must make it something that was already there..therefore it was simply your own thoughts that were coming out...and so you basically chalk your visions up to your own thoughts. I see it a bit differently.
How do you know that God didn't open your heart up and let you see things how He sees them? How do you know then that He didn't confirm that to you by those visions? Your insight came from somewhere, Tiassa. How do you know they didn't originally come from God?

Next, I'd like to point out is that what you detest so much regarding christiantity has nothing to do with God's version of it. Ok, point blank...what I do not understand is why do you hold what the majority of christians you know believe to be true of as what christainity means? It's term did not originate with them..rather with God... so why let them stop you from pursuing a stronger communication line with God/Jesus?


[This message has been edited by Flash (edited August 01, 2000).]

Hi Tiassa and Lori

This whole thread really gets me to thinking once again how skewed modern Christianity/Faith is from Jesus` original teaching and Mystery. And how the negative influence of the early Roman Church with all its greed, dogma and religious intolerance is still, so many years later, widely reflected in our modern, “enlightened” Christian community. With the said “intolerance” to any concept/issue that reflects a dogmatic “sin” … and the accompanying sorrow and pain, this potentially causes. (as per your Aunts daughter) And yes … I think Jesus would turn in his grave (huh?) at the actions and mindset of his so called adherents.

One of the most tragic consequences of the early Roman Church was the literalist perversion, adaptation, and exclusion of the early esoteric gospels. Most Christians today would like to believe that these Apocryphal Gospels that were excluded from the canon during deliberations at the Council of Nicea (AD 325) do not exist. But they do. And they do expose mainstream literal Christian interpretation to be at fault.

An example is the following.
The mysterious beginning of the Gospel of John:

“John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

This has always seemed a little out of place, compared to the bulk of the NT.

Interpret the verse in the light of the following, which is from the apocryphal “Acts of John”.
This is Jesus speaking.

“101 Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance, I will that it be called a mystery. For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto. Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer. Now what those things are I signify unto thee, for I know that thou wilt understand. Perceive thou therefore in me the praising of the Word (Logos), the piercing of the Word, the blood of the Word, the wound of the Word, the hanging up of the Word, the suffering of the Word, the nailing (fixing) of the Word, the death of the Word. And so speak I, separating off the manhood. Perceive thou therefore in the first place of the Word; then shalt thou perceive the Lord, and in the third place the man, and what he hath suffered.”

If you can understand the above, things really are not what they seem or should necessarily be, and is it not a great sadness that the Mystery of Christ, has been so perverted that, Christianity today seems to have missed the point entirely. Is redemption within, through Knowledge? So much of the content of the Apocryphal Gospels (that were burnt, disregarded and persecuted as heresies by the early Roman Church) point towards, man looking inside himself, finding Gnosis and pursuing self-enlightenment, ( Hi Buddha! ) to find a glimmer of the Cosmos within us, that make us all part of the manifestation of God. The Creative Urge of the continuity of the Universe, that pushes mankind forever forward, until he falls, picks himself up, and moves forward again … this being the most natural of all mans qualities. And the Hope lies within us, that at a certain point, we can disregard the manacles of perverted Christian dogma, and see what Jesus was really trying to say,show and achieve.

By looking within, we discover an inner truth about our ego and place in the cosmos, and in this revelation, we realise we are but a mirror image of the person next to us … and finally find the Truth in empathy and compassion for our human kin. Quite simply, honesty, knowledge and love is the light that will guide us on our journey through the valley of the shadow of death. And we cannot within that particular frame of mind, allow ourselves the irresponsibility of redeeming our ethical and moral transgressions, by placing these burdens on the shoulders of a pathetic bloody man, nailed to a tree. That release can only repeat and perpetuate the cycle of societal violence and apathy.

“Salvation is not begged or bought;
Too long this selfish hope sufficed;
Too long man reeked with lawless thought,
And leaned upon a tortured Christ.”

Ella Wheeler Wilcox

Take care

Infinity,

Yes, God loves the devil. He made him too. He doesn't love what he chooses to do, but he loves him.

Tiassa,

Blah, blah, blah. That sounded disrespectful, and I'm sorry, but honestly man. You are equating christianity with organized religion. That is a fallacy ok?! I'm not saying that everyone who belongs to a church is saved, or that no one who belongs to a church is saved. Some are, some aren't. You know, it stands to reason that in ANY organization of human beings there will be the same power struggles, egos, hidden agendas, political back stabbing, finger pointing crap. It happens in the government, in schools, in the business world, and in any other organization you can think of...even charities. It's because the members are sinners see. Human beings are sinners, just like it says in the bible. Because people are lazy, and attribute power to high positions within the church, and make a church politically oriented, what kind of person do you think is attracted to these positions, and for what reasons? It's like our government Tiassa...it's the same thing. Look at the presidential and congretional candidates as of the last 10-20 years. Are they even real people? I don't dare guess. I'm hoping they're not. I'm hoping they're really robots, just for my sanity's sake. So would you say that democracy isn't a fair or good system because a large number of our politicians are corrupt, finger pointing idiots? And your answer would be what? To run for office? To become a politician yourself and overthrow the corrupt? A coup? Do you have any idea how bad people like you or I would get chewed up and spit out in the political arena? Then why would you discount Jesus because of the ludicracy of some religious organization? So how do you think either of us would do within the organized church? As preachers? Do you think that we would be well-received by the majority of "church people"? Yea right! Why do you even think those people are there in the first place??? Because they choose to be! Because they want to be! If people choose to give power and glory to a preacher or a church instead of to Jesus, then that is their choice! But it doesn't mean that it's the right one! And if someone's intent in joining a church is to belong to a group in which they feel superior to their fellow man, so as to judge, or to feel a sense of belonging to a group, a security, then they may as well join an arian brotherhood, or the young republicans, for all of the good that they're doing. Tiassa, those "christians" who snub their noses at others and judge, do that because they WANT to. And if I were to point out to them that it says it's sinful to do that in the Bible, they would argue with me. It's not a difficult point to get, they don't WANT to get it. They WANT to feel superior, that's why they justify it and rationalize it. People do that with all kinds of things, not just religion. If I were to walk into the average church on Sunday morning and start preaching what would happen? You know as well as I do that about 99% of the congregation would get up and leave, and there would be one or two rebels that would hang around and sob hysterically while praying to Jesus to remove the demon that was within me. Now what good would that do Tiassa? What do you want to do? Let's storm TBN and take the place over, what do you say? We could take the lady with the big white hair and all the mascara as hostage, and we could give her something to REALLY cry about? Would ya just stop it already????? You know as well as I do that every single thing that you mentioned in your last post goes directly against what Jesus taught. You know that. Some people choose to ignore that, it's a shame, but shit happens, you can't let it ruin your life! You don't have to buy in Tiassa! You're damned if you do! Let me tell you something...people like that are a lot farther away from God than they like to think or act or talk like they are. You don't get saved by going to church, or by professing christianity, or by holding a position in the church, or by being a preacher. For all you know, every single one of those church people will be left here, mouth gaping in amazement and denial, after the rapture of the real church. THAT'S what it says in the BIBLE Tiassa. THAT'S WHAT JESUS SAID. You can't be a christian for too long without the whole judgement thing becoming real clear to you. I never would have imagined all of the things that could possibly be so incredibly wrong with me before I met Jesus. It humbles you real quick. Shit, humility is what leads most to Him in the first place. It doesn't count if it's fake humility!!!!! Get it?! You can't fool God. I don't care if you're sitting in a pew, or at the altar, or on the pulpit, or if you're Billy Graham, you can't fool God. And if you really ARE close to Jesus, you are less easily fooled yourself. Tiassa, what does it mean to you that I am a christian, and yet I am just as disgusted by the "judgment" and hipocracy of organized religion as you are? What is the difference between us? What do we need to reconcile? Oh yea, it's that Jesus isn't organized religion...faith isn't organized religion...christianity isn't organized religion. Organized religion is organized religion. What makes you think that I or any other christian would do any more good in life, towards others, being a witness for Christ, within an organized religious structure, rather than outside of it? Is that the only medium that counts with you? You can be a witness to Christ every minute of every day, outside of an organization, or inside of one that has nothing to do with religion, and do more good than you ever could if you were broadcast on TBN. Don't limit God. Don't equate Him with that bullshit Tiassa. Just stop!

I also wanted to say that, as screwed up as some of the perceptions of organized religion are, that there are many, many really good people that go to church to hear the Word, and to worship God, with the best of intent, that would give you their last dollar and the shirt off of their back if you needed it. People who live in poverty their whole lives so that they can do things like help out homeless people, or drug addicts, or prostitutes. People that really care. Even people who buy into the wrong idea about some things can really care, and still be good hearted people Tiassa. People make mistakes. I've had the wrong idea about a thing or two...or three...or four...or five...ugh. But you know what? I've learned these things...my mistakes...my misconceptions....from Jesus. Even the things about what's wrong with the church...just like you. So what does that mean to you?

Which leads me to address your question. And may I point out that it must be your turn to be a real cock, as I detect an animous tone...is animous a word? I'm too lazy to look. :) Let's see, which moral assumptions should we choose? That's all Jesus does to me is change my moral assumptions. I don't know if that's quite the right word for it. I don't like to assume, and I don't judge others. I can recognize lust, pain, suffering, greed, pride, envy, and the like when it's in my face and obvious, but I also know that I am not immune to these vile temptations, so no one else is either, big surprise. I'm no elitist. I don't hang in the temple. I've spent my life being friends with primarily non-believers, my brother's an atheist, drug dealers and users, homosexuals, long haired rocker types, and some people who lack teeth. Tee hee. And I've loved them all. Actually, I didn't mean it that way, but that's not far from the truth. I'm a recovering slut myself, remember? I'm not sure where this question came from Tiassa. You know I've been all out in the open as far as my own moral dilemas are concerned. You know the whole reason I ended up getting religion is attributed to me having an abortion. Ok, that was one moral assumption out the window. Which led to a larger analysis of sex in general, and what it's for, and what's it's supposed to be about, and what it's not. That blew the "slut agenda" out of the the water. Ok, then along the same lines, what about my choice in men? What about the whole "submissive" thing? *shielding myself from MC and Searchers daggers* Just recently I figured out that I don't trust men, which is a bad thing. That I settled, that I was weak, that I copped out, that I chose a husband for the wrong reasons. That my marriage problem were attributed to a flawed perception, and a lack of faith. My spiritual weakness and lack of faith really slapped me in the face recently after being dumped by the most angelically righteous man I've ever met. I didn't realize how "bent" I was. I do now. And so I learn some more. Jesus said to me "If you believe that you will never trust a man, then you will never have a man that you can trust." And that's true. How about the whole homosexuality thing? Where do you think my "gender discrimination" perspective came from? Yep, the Big Guy. Now then, does THAT jive with organized religion???? Nope. And there are so many others, but one of the most important is this Tiassa...IF I DIDN'T KNOW JESUS, I WOULD STILL ASSUME THAT CHRISTIANITY IS EQUATED WITH ORGANIZED RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 01, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 01, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 01, 2000).]

Do you love the Devil?

No, I didn't create him, and I'm just not THAT Jesus-like. He's caused me all kinds of misery, though I allowed it, and still do. He is the tempter. I don't like that, as I am lazy, and weak, and he makes me fight. You know, it would be nice to be born into a world like the garden, where there is no temptation to sin. But given that we're not, my sin, and the suffering that it's caused me has led me to my salvation. So in effect, Satan, and his temptations, and the suffering that they have caused me in my weakness, have led me to Jesus. HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, Satan, you're foiled again! Double drat!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

What about the whole "submissive" thing? *shielding myself from MC and Searchers daggers* Just recently I figured out that I don't trust men, which is a bad thing. That I settled, that I was weak, that I copped out, that I chose a husband for the wrong reasons. That my marriage problem were attributed to a flawed perception, and a lack of faith. My spiritual weakness and lack of faith really slapped me in the face recently after being dumped by the most angelically righteous man I've ever met. I didn't realize how "bent" I was. I do now. And so I learn some more. Jesus said to me "If you believe that you will never trust a man, then you will never have a man that you can trust." And that's true.

No daggers here - but hopefully some useful input. :) I truly believe that as long as you put men in a position above you (no pun intended), you will never find a man you can trust. You know the saying, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"? Human beings are not very good at being placed in a position of power over each other, whether you're talking about a husband and wife relationship, politics or whatever. And there's no logical reason why a man should be "in charge" of the family. Both husband and wife are presumably adults and therefore equally responsible for making important decisions. It has been my experience that a man who believes that he has special rights by virtue of what hangs between his legs will eventually take advantage of such misplaced power - why put him in that position?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

MC,

Ugh. You so don't understand what I'm talking about. What special rights are you talking about? I'm talking about special responsibilities. Women have some too ya know? All we're really talking about here is delineation, and whether you like it or not, men are in control of this planet, and always have been, and always will be. For all I know it all comes down to brut strength...I don't know?! What I do know is that men and women are DIFFERENT, and that's a good thing.

To answer your question...why put a man in that position? You mention the potential for the "abuse of power"...it's called trust, and it's what a marriage is supposed to be based upon. The point is that you're not supposed to be with a man who would "abuse power". And also, you're missing the whole point that this is not a power struggle that we're talking about...a power struggle is what we're trying to avoid...get it? Believe me MC, I know that this is a difficult concept to grasp...I know...I know...I'm a lot like you, or was in my thinking for a long long long time. But trust me, nothing that I'm proposing here, or that Jesus is proposing, is a bad or degrading or disrespectful thing to a woman. It's the opposite of that. There is nothing wrong with expecting men to be righteous. Uh, excuse me, but could we get some righteous men over here please!!!! That, in itself, is a responsibility that women have...see!!! We are no less powerful in spirit or in our minds or in our influence than men. Please understand what I'm saying. And don't start with the housework, making money, blah, blah stuff again, it's not about that. It's about trust, and it's about the differences between men and women, which are all good.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

I think you meant to address Searcher?

I give up on the whole submissive thing with ya'. You go for it, whatever floats your boat. I doubt you & I will ever see eye to eye on this one, so be it.

All I know is I am happily married, in the best relationship I have ever seen. Out of everyone I know, I don't know of any couple that gets along as well as we do. It's like a picturebook, and I'm really not exaggerating. I'm sure there are others out there like us, but so far I haven't met 'em. The secret is equality. I don't submit to him any more or any less than he submits to me. We treat eachother with respect and love, because that's how we feel about eachother. I think it's unfair for either member to submit to the other, why downplay your worth and place that kind of burden on your partner? Stand up straight, divide that load equally and tow your own weight, that's the way a happy, functional relationship ougta be in my book.

You can tell me submission's the thing all you want, but since I'm in a relationship that's lasted nearly a third of my life and counting, I'll stick with my own theory. When I'm in my sixties and celebrating our 50 year anniversary, I'll drop you an "I told you so" card, okay? ;)

Alrighty everyone, here's my bent on the submission thing :)

Husbands were told in the Bilble to be to their wives what Jesus is to the church. Jesus died for us and served us, he intercedes for us (stands as a protector) and he served and loves us. When a wife "submits" to her husband she's submitting to someone who should be willing to serve her, look out for her needs and ultimately be willing to die for her. It IS all about mutual love and respect. When we examine what the husband is told we can see that he is really being asked to submit to whatever will truly biuld his wife up. To throw a spanner in the works.... it also interest me that the husband is told to love his wife, but wives are only told to respect their husbands, interesting when we know what it is that gives men and women their sense of self worth. For men it mostly involves significance, for women, mostly a sense of security.

Howzabout that? :)

Francis,

To throw a spanner in the works.... it also interest me that the husband is told to love his wife, but wives are only told to respect their husbands, interesting when we know what it is that gives men and women their sense of self worth. For men it mostly involves significance, for women, mostly a sense of security.

Personally, I require both love and respect from my husband, but if I had to do without one of those things, I guess I would do without love. I honestly can't say which way my hubby would go on that one - both are so important to him. Fortunately for us, we do have it both ways! Come to think of it, I would go so far as to say that it is quite difficult, if not impossible, to love someone you don't respect, so respect should be priority one. At least, that's how I see it.

I'm not sure where you got the "security" thing out of all this - since when does a 50% failure rate give anyone a sense of security? The only way to really feel secure is to know how to stand up on your own two feet and take care of yourself! This also greatly enhances your own feelings of self-respect, which in turn, makes you feel more worthy of being loved.



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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Yah, I'd have to say I'm with Searcher on this one.

I just had to look at how my husband and my relationship developed.

First we were strangers.
Then we met through being friends with the same people.
We became friends with eachother.
Circumstances threw us together more and more, our friendship deepened.
Love grew until we couldn't ignore it anymore, so we became lovers.
We moved to a new town together.
We got married.

So if I look at this, it's obvious to me that love is stacked on top of friendship. If the love were to somehow fade, there would still be that underlying friendship there. (Which I have discussed with my hubby on occasion before, he agrees with me) So I would have to say respect is indeed a very important factor for women, along with love. Being loved is certainally important too, but I would not tolerate a relationship with a man that didn't respect me, no matter how much he loved me, took care of me, paid my bills and massaged my feet. I wouldn't even be comfortable in a friendship that lacked a basic respect - I would go so far as to say the friendship is not genuine without the respect.

And aye, how does being loved give a woman a sense of security? A man can love his wife with all his heart and still be an abusive drunk, that's not very secure. But if he has sincere respect for her, he might be less inclined to raise a fist - he might realize that a strong woman will not just submit to his loving blows, she will strike back with whatever resources she has - the law, social programs, physical resistance if necessary.

As Lori likes to point out, this ain't the garden of Eden. This is real life, and it's pretty messed up. Men like to control women, women like to manipulate men... Not all of us are like this but I feel pretty safe in asserting the majority is. It's accepted in this society as "the way it is".

Have you seen the commercial for an online engagement-designing site? Perfect example of what I'm talking about. The voiceover says something that just infuriates me every time I hear it, it says something like "designing the perfect ring is quick and easy, you have a lifetime to design the perfect husband". That drives me nuts! Anyone else see that commercial? Anyone else enraged by it? Do you see why it ticks me off? It's just a prime example of why marriages don't work anymore. People just don't get it.

Okay, that's enough ranting for one morning. :)

MoonCat,

No, I haven't seen the commercial, but I can see what you mean. If you start off a marriage with the idea of changing your husband into whatever it is you want him to be, then you really don't love and respect the person he is. You only love the package he came in, and that's the wrong reason for marrying anyone!

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Mooncat and Searcher,

I have to say I love what you have said. To be honest on a couple of points, I threw in the love and respect thing to see what answers I would get. I think this idea related to the culture of the day when a man chose his wife and she just had to accept it, of course I think it's different now, and personally I wouldn't want to marry a lady who doesn't love me.

As for the security thing, that comes from study. I am not married so cannot think to know better than you, I enjoy seeing your perceptions though and I hold them as extremely valid.

The idea of security and significance was presented to me in one of my classes on counseling (I go to Bible College). It was a discussion on how we obtain a sense of personal worth and it was concluded that there are two main contributing factors, a sense of significance (being somebody) and a sense of security. For men it seems to be that significance is the stronger factor of the two and for women security.

In my experience with my girlfriend this seems to be so. Just to affirm what one of you said, the best relationships come from strong friendships, she is my best friend, everything else is a product of that friendship. I'm at a stage where I get the warm fuzzies when I'm near her and the rest of the world seems to disapear (I'm a hopeless romantic), but this unlike some relationships is not the foundation it is merely a product of the growing togetherness we share.

But back to the topic....

It interest me that she felt she could only express any love toward me once I had shown my commitment to her, once she felt secure that I wasn't going to ditch her when things get a little tough and that even though I see her weaknesses I still love her no matter what. When I talk about security in this sense, I'm talking about knowing the other person is there and commited.

For me, I find that one of the most important things is knowing that to her I'm somebody (significance), I know that she doesn't see anyone else the way she sees me. I love the little messages she sends me to say she's thinking of me, I love it when in a room full of people she continually glances my way and gives me that smile to say that I'm it for her (significance).

I know that the relationship is still immature and has a long way to go, btu I know that it will go a long way because it's based on a best friendship, a commitment and mutual love and respect. I love having someone I long to serve, biuld up and stand alongside as an equal and a co-worker. But most of all I enjoy the prospect of having someone I can be to, what Jesus was to the church, Someone I can sacrifice for and ultimately be willing to die for, I hope and pray that one day I can be that man for her.

Thankyou so much for sharing, I always find it valuable to hear the experiences and wisdom of those who have traveled further than me.

Sorry if this rant seems a little unrealistic, but I love talking about how much my girlfriend means to me. :)

Francis,

You ARE a hopless romantic, and you go ahead & stay that way, okay? :) Very charming.

"It interest me that she