OK, I was driving my daughter to a local skatepark.. we were listening to music, loudly, and she had a question, that deserves some pondering. Maybe it's philosophy, maybe a little science, but still...

She said, "When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

What are you talking about? "We'll the universe is not made of air or water, so why doesn't it collapse?"

HMMM????

So.. What of the vacuum??? Did she prove the universe is infinite, or did she prove that it has rigid borders, that keep it from collapse???

What do you all think? Does it prove anything?

I told her I would think on it. I didn't tell her I would be consulting a bunch of folks with brains, but that is what I am doing.

So, please help me be smarter than she is, just for a couple more years!!

What are you talking about? "We'll the universe is not made of air or water, so why doesn't it collapse?"
Expanding space and dark energy I believe...

May be so, but expanding nothingness?

Space can be compressed no?

Water cannot be compressed, and air can be.

The way I see it, it is infinite, or structurally sound by your dark matter, or what about something of a shell????

Very strange ideas, but I want to continue to explore this. Can a vacume expand or contract???

She said, "When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

What are you talking about? "We'll the universe is not made of air or water, so why doesn't it collapse?"

HMMM????

So.. What of the vacume??? Did she prove the universe is infinite, or did she prove that it has rigid borders, that keep it from collapse???

What do you all think? Does it prove anything?The force that crushes the bottle is not caused by the vacuum, it is the air pressure outside the bottle that crushes it.

Relevant link:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question200.htm

~Raithere

"When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

-- It would be interesting to know more about her reasoning that led her to the question.


"We'll the universe is not made of air or water, so why doesn't it collapse?"

The implicit assumption here is that the universe is empty -- which it is not.

Scott space is not a vaccum, we might not totally understand the makeup of space but it cannot be a vaccum.

Firstly the Universe is held together by Gravity but there is not enough matter in the Universe for this to happen. Therefore you get the Theory of Dark Matter which would account for the Gravity needed to stop the Universe tearing apart.

Secondly another force is also effecting the Universe because it is expanding, this is called Dark Energy. Again we can't see or even prove that Dark Energy exists but we know it must be there because the Universe is expanding.

It was a very clever observation from your daughter but the thing to remember here is just because we can't see something does not mean it is not there. I believe that Dark Matter should account for twice the amount of matter that we can see. So most of the content of the Universe is invisible.

Scott Myers:

If (and you know I don't assert this) there exists nothing around the universe and the universe is expanding into nothing, that nothing could not exert pressure. If there is something around the universe, the universe is still hurtling forward from the inertia of the big bang, which is enough, apparently, to fight against whatever force (if there is any force) pushing it back. Of course, I would assert that space is infinite (even if the universe may be finite) and that one can never "collapse the water bottle of the universe" as energy cannot be destroyed.

Keep in mind that we are trying to find an explanation an 8-year old will have enough knowledge to understand.

ok imagine this black holes and white holes, hold the universe together so it dosent collapse just like if you poke a few holes in the bottle and drink from it then infact it wouldent collapse because of the flow of air circulating between the "holes"

that came off the top off my head by the way

maybe the dumb eastern taoist is onto something and she can understand perfectly?

the resistance of matter holds the universe together.

the mighty hand of Hekki (may she be praised above all others) holds the universe together and guides our every action. we are but pawns in the intricate webs that her divine wisdom weaves.

Hallowed by the Holy Name of Hekki All Mighty.

"When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

Please have her read The Little Prince.

Here it is for free:

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/littleprince/

Who is Hekki?

Please have her read The Little Prince.

Here it is for free:

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/littleprince/
Why are you asking that.....? How's that relevant? :confused:

PS: Thanks for the link

Don't forget: PV=nRT. First of all n (number of moles) is static. Drinking a bottle of water reduces the moles of both water and gases above it. As n goes down, then V (volume) must go down as well. Of course, pressure (P) could also go down, but then the pressure of the surrounding air would overcome the bottle's ability to maintain its shape, hence the volume would descrease eventually anyways. Her example was a vacuum surrounded by air pressure. What is the near vacuum of the universe surrounded by?

OK, I was driving my daughter to a local skatepark.. we were listening to music, loudly, and she had a question, that deserves some pondering. Maybe it's philosophy, maybe a little science, but still...

She said, "When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

What are you talking about? "We'll the universe is not made of air or water, so why doesn't it collapse?"

HMMM????

So.. What of the vacuum??? Did she prove the universe is infinite, or did she prove that it has rigid borders, that keep it from collapse???

What do you all think? Does it prove anything?

I told her I would think on it. I didn't tell her I would be consulting a bunch of folks with brains, but that is what I am doing.

So, please help me be smarter than she is, just for a couple more years!!
What does she read? Do you ever talk with her about those things?

Maybe you have an indigo child in your hands....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children

Yaba Daba :m:

The Little Prince is a good book for young, inquisitve minds that also helps children think outside-the-box. It's seems like she's very intelligent and would enjoy it.

Don't forget: PV=nRT. First of all n (number of moles) is static. Drinking a bottle of water reduces the moles of both water and gases above it. As n goes down, then V (volume) must go down as well. Of course, pressure (P) could also go down, but then the pressure of the surrounding air would overcome the bottle's ability to maintain its shape, hence the volume would descrease eventually anyways. Her example was a vacuum surrounded by air pressure. What is the near vacuum of the universe surrounded by?
But the universe is not collapsing....
Or is it?
*Bethoven's 5th symphony*

Yaba Daba :m:

The Little Prince is a good book for young, inquisitve minds that also helps children think outside-the-box. It's seems like she's very intelligent and would enjoy it.
Yeah, I know. I was one of them.
Sorry, I thought cosmictraveler was asking IF the kid had read the book... :o

Hmm.. I would have said "sweetie that's a great question. it would seem that a long long long time ago, like 15 billion years or so, there was a big explosion called "the big bang", which created the space we currently inhabit. the momentum of that explosion (like the reason your bike keeps coasting after you pedal for a while) is still causing the universe to expand"

or something like that.

Why are you asking that.....? How's that relevant? :confused:

PS: Thanks for the link


When I read it I was amazed about all the planets that it talks about and how far away eveything was but ....and therein lies the crux of the book.

Water:

Hekki is Beyond the Beyond, Above and All, Transcendental and Imminent, Within and Without.

Also she's great in the sack.

OK, I was driving my daughter to a local skatepark.. we were listening to music, loudly, and she had a question, that deserves some pondering. Maybe it's philosophy, maybe a little science, but still...

She said, "When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

What are you talking about? "We'll the universe is not made of air or water, so why doesn't it collapse?"

HMMM????

So.. What of the vacuum??? Did she prove the universe is infinite, or did she prove that it has rigid borders, that keep it from collapse???

What do you all think? Does it prove anything?

I told her I would think on it. I didn't tell her I would be consulting a bunch of folks with brains, but that is what I am doing.

So, please help me be smarter than she is, just for a couple more years!!

People prior to middle school are deep and philosphical...because they haven't really been exposed to the extremely shallow mindset that is middle and high school.
It won't last forever...

What the hell? Was my post deleted here, also? Ugh.

What the hell???All your posts are going mate............preeeeettttty fast!! :)

the universe is held together by 4 gods.

It all make sense now! It all make sense! :eek:

Yaba Daba! :m:

I think it's just infinite emptiness.
But i could be wrong, I'm only twice your daughters age, and probably half your age.

c7ityi_:

Crom is definitely amongst them, isn't he? For Crom laughs at the four winds!

Prince_James,

I saw that movie not too long ago actually. The 4 winds come from a paradisical oneness (God). The 4 winds are a "miracle". It just depends on the "direction" of the wind, that decides which one of the 4 or it is. God's 4 faces are visible everywhere. You know those faces, they are the same as the 4 elements. They can easily be detected in colors, animals, emotions etc.

I do not know Crom. I do not read much, but I know it's an -earth- God, so maybe he is one of 4 gods.

It just depends on us, how many of them exists. Whether they are 4 (elements), 2 (yin yang) 12 (zodiac) 360, or infinite... or only 1. But without separation, knowledge is possible, so dividing them into 12 would be a rational number at larger scales [30000 years] which would give much information, and there are other reasons for that too.... paint 4 equilateral triangles, each facing different side... join them together and there are 12 sides. an equilateral triangle is divinity... the number 4 is how god expresses itself in the material world... because.. he 3 in 1 must be 1+3 since 2 things can't exist on the same place in the material wrold... man, i have to go to sleep.

You know not of Crom? Let me tell you more, then!

Crom is the chief of Gods and he lives on a great mountain, whence he sends foth dooms and death. It is useless to call upon him, for he is gloomy and savage, and he hates weaklings. In fact, pray to him and he is more likely to send you death than fortune! But he gives man courage at birth and the power to slay his enemies and what more can we ask of a God than that?

te....... gods are representations of stuff in the real world... ...

No, Crom is a being, and he gives man courage at birth and the power to slay his enemies, as noted above.

Ok. This thread has been MAJORLY hijecked.
Goodbye.

Yaba Daba :m:

I can't believe you, I have to ask Crom himself.

I'd be careful not to draw your attention to him. He curses the weaklings who seek him out.

She said, "When I'm drinking my water from this bottle, air cannot get back into the bottle, so it collapses. So, how big is the universe?"

This is a question from an 8 year old imaging the universe as a vessel filled with something that must have left.. leaving a vacant "space" that is not being re-filled. She has made a lot of happy leaps in her reasoning..

Tell her it is not a measurable vessel, that space is not empty, and nowhere is there somewhere where nothing is. We don't know the name of the something that fills the empty space she imagines, but we know we'll think of a name as soon as we apprehend the something that leaves no emptiness ...

So don't worry, you're as safe as Daddy can make you in a Universe filled with expanding whatsit.

:D