I was hoping that someone on this forum, who is better versed in the science of genetics, could help me out with a certain quandry. Many people in the US would like to see Marijuana legalized for medical and recreational use. This is not likely to happen until truly free elections are possible. I was simply wondering how difficult it would be to consolidate funding so that a lab(either legitimite or underground) could be retained to conduct research on isolating the THC producing gene so that it could be possible to create, say a THC producing Tomato plant? Or mabye THC producing Hop plants? What level of technology would be required, and would it be financialy feasible to undertake such a task? If anyone can help me with this, I would be grateful.

You may not be aware of new developments in the UK.
Semi-decriminalisation of cannibis has begun. The maximum sentence for trafficking has been lowered from 14 years to five, and sentencing for possession has been reduced to two years from five.
The Home Secretary's directive to the police is roughly as follows:
Persons in possession of cannibis are not to be arrested unless the possession is linked to violent crime.
The UK may therefore be a significant target for fundraising with reference to subsidising a research lab.

I would feel safer personally if you would use a really safe branch of some fungi (i.e. really dependent on some external added nutrients, and notcrossing, welll contained etc), and use that, as i am sure pharmacists would advise you rather than using a plant.


The idea to illegally create a THC tomato is very irresonsible. As for now the knowledge, even of the large companies (despite of what they want you to believe) on the effects of the changing of genes in plants is extremely low. I've done some reading on the Roundup Ready soy and found
- unexplained yield lag
- possible damaged stress-reaction pathways, resulting in adapted lignine content resulting in broken stems
- higher amounts of the fusarium fungus in fields that are used for a longer time
- changed nutrient content, especially the aromatic amino acids.
- several unexpected bits and pieces of DNA

Further the GM plants cannot possibly be contained, for example
- the taco bell hype (or scandal if you like)
- the native maize(corn) in Mexico (gene source of maize!) are being comtaminated
- patent discussions
- multi-resistent canola plants in Canada


If you still want to make this THC crop, you may want to look for a plant with the most similar biochemical pathways. So find what are the precursors of THC and see if you can find another plant with a similar content. Then make the tomato infertile etc.




In the Netherlands, where you can grow a handful of cannabis plants (about 5) without expecting harrasment, the quality of the plant has been much improved. By selection and breeding.

It's a bit crowded in the Netherlands though.

Crowded?? How do you mean?? By Marijuana plants???

Can't be crowded enough there in the Netherlands. There is a Coffee-shop at every streetcorner...very nice.;)

They have a nice pill in the Netherlands also which you can get at the prescription by the doctor.

Because of the real good quality of the Marijuana itself, it is used by certain diseases, like to ease pain coming from the nerve-system and cancer and other diseases. It seems to be working pretty good, for there are a lot of humans who use Marijuana now a days to ease their pain.

The THC is the most important ingredient of this Herb. It is a Natural drug, an Herb, no garbage added.

So they found a way to produce a pill which has the same effect as Marijuana, but it is not exactly the same as the Herb. It seems rather impossible to me to make a pill which has the same effects as the Marijuana itself.

Tomatoes or other food with artificial added THC seems not relevant to me.

You can use the Marijuana itself in your cooking if you want to...just like other spices you add to your food. Just put it in at a later time and it will work perfectly.

Or bake a nice cake with it...Oh what joy you have an hour after eating it. For several hours.

It is legal too, you are allowed to drive your car and have 30 grams of Marijuana in your possession for your own use.

Guess the US government is old fashioned here. But hey...what do you want?
The US government want to have control over their inhabitants and then you are really not allowed to do any thing which they disaprove with.

Make a nice THC bomb...Perhaps they like that better.
Then drop it at the White House please, if everybody is there and perhaps they stop bombing the Earth...:rolleyes:

As I said earlier, even the UK gonernment is starting to come round to it. Legality isn't far off.

The easiest thing to do would to generate a THC producing bacterium (probably E. coli), and infect yourself with it (E. coli is a natural resident of the intestines). Then enjoy your life.

Or is this dangerously close to the ideal of wiring up the brain with a constant supply of pleasure chemicals? Thanks to biotechnology, this beautiful future may not be far off. :)

http://www.hemperor.com/

http://www.globalhemp.com/

http://www.cannabisnews.com/index.shtml

http://www.hempcar.org/index.html

Enjoy!

Porfiry, that is a great idea. You know how to realise it? I want to be your 'guineapig then. Imagine...

Cool...;)

Marijuana has over 2000 psychoactive substances in it though THC delta 9 I believe is the most abundant. There is no substitute. The pill doesn't compare to good herb, though it is fun ... at least that's what im told ; )

Actually hops and marijuana are kind of out there by their lonesome in the plant world ... interesting that they are the basis of two of the most popular drugs consumed globablly. I wonder if beer has a bit of a psychoactive nature that is hard to detect next to all the alcohol. Like that stuff Van Gogh was on but less powerful. Or maybe we need to start burning sugar in beer to activate it ...

The ecoli idea is an interesting one, but desensitization might be an issue. Also if the engineered bacteria were pumping out enough THC to do the trick in the stomach (much lower efficiency delivery roue than smoking) it would probably lose out to the other bacteria and die off. Besides dosage control would be nice. What we really need is a new organ under conscious control that releases a nice coctail at will ... something like the adrenal gland but easier to control. The ecoli idea is much more practically realizeable of course.

relating to memory loss issues, I think it mainly might be the fact that it changes your mental state significantly and like studying for a test under the same circumstances you take it, when you go to remember something if you're not just as high it's harder because the storing/retrieving functions are no longer reverse operators or something. If that's the case another system of delivery than smoking and more accurate dosage control could theroretically remove most of the real problems with marijuana use.

Then the issue becomes why the real world is such that we want to go somewhere else. Then again a lot of religions have people wanting to die and go to heaven. I once saw an amusing button - "I don't have a drug problem, I have a reality problem."

I just had a funny thought on the ecoli thing. What if they actually were selected for on the population level because they made people eat more. Until you're hungry all the time and stuck in one long munchie binge???

But I don't have memory loss...yet.:) I don't even smoke it at the moment and didn't smoke it all day long, before.

It is the way you handle the Marijuana. If you use it from waking up til going to bed, it is certainly not the right way. Then you will have problems during your life if you by accident 'wake up' all of a sudden, by lack of Marijuana.

Now a days it is not necessarry any more to only smoke it, if you don't want to. You can buy an Inhalor and inhale the pure Marijuana without smoking. In the Netherlands, that is possible, for quite a while now. Because of the Marijuana used for mecical treatments. Humans who have problems and don't want to smoke, can do it like that, with an Inhalor. ;)

About the being hungry thing. That is such a nice side affect of it. But it doesn't stay that way. It is not always so that you want to eat more when you are stoned. But often the Marijuana makes you want to eat something nice, yes.
Great for the humans who want to gain weight, but not for the humans who are too fat.

So, no good pleasure Herb for the fat Americans...:p

Also if the engineered bacteria were pumping out enough THC to do the trick in the stomach (much lower efficiency delivery roue than smoking) it would probably lose out to the other bacteria and die off.

Good call. This would definitely be a problem. Of course, you could always rig it up such that the engineered bacteria could have an unnatural antibiotic resistence (just throw in the gene along with the THC production mechanism), and then you could ensure that you're always taking low doses of that antibiotic to select for the THC-bacteria.

As for dosage control, you could also rig it up with a simple regulator such that the THC-gene is transcribed only when in the presence of something else -- say milk-sugars. Then, whenver you have a glass of milk or cheese you activate THC production. And think how innocent it would appear! My mom could give me milk and cookies and I would *really* enjoy them.

:)

Banshee,

I've never used and inhalor, but I hear you can't really taste it or tell how much you're getting. As you said if you're going to smoke, how you do it matters. So being able to tell the amount you're getting matters. Also the flavor of good nug can be so yummy, the whole extra level of conditioning and imprinting makes it capable of levels of enjoyment up there with good food. Like sushi.

BTW, does anyone else get a body high from sushi? I noticed it first there, but I think fish in general give me a bit of a buzz ...

I was mainly joking about the munchies ... it was just a funny picture that popped into my head.

Porfiry,

Technically an antibiotic would do the trick, but taking regular antibiotics has negative side effects expecially in terms of screwing up the natural good bacteria ecosystem of the gut. I'm not sure how bad the effect is with low doses, but there it would help the selection less.

Putting it under an inducible promoter is a great idea, though something more exotic might make it easier to not have to watch what you eat when you want to be sober.

Well, I do enjoy raw salmon more than perhaps any other food. I will have to examine its effects more closely next time.

Well, an alternate to constant low doses of antibiotic would be an occasional high dose of antibiotic while innoculating yourself with the engineered bacteria. The hope being that you can have the engineered bacteria dominate population-wise at least temporarily. Eventually things would return to normal.


And, of course, I forgot to mention that the selected expression of the THC gene would reduce any negative selection of the engineered bacteria, since there is significant metabolic cost only when the inducer is present.

Profiry, I guess that all depends on how much you induce it ...

speaking of fish and memory I somehow forgot to go to sushi happy hour...

I like to end sentences with three dots ... anyone else hooked on that ???

Don't take this the wrong way...
But I find the practice of ending sentences with three dots unusual, wierd and interesting...
And enticing...
I will try it...
And report my findings...
:)

I like to end my posts with three dots. Perhaps a case of memory loss, caused by the Marijuana?:) Forget to let go of the *dot* key on my keyboard.

And please, no artificial garbage with that great, natural pleasure Herb, called Marijuana. Bake a nice cake with it or spread it over your food before you eat it.;)

Antibiotics have a lot of nasty side affects, which the Marijuana doesn't have...(notice the dots?) Momentary memory loss...:p

Putting three dots is a nice way to finish off a thought by inviting the reader to think where you might be going.

MJ use through an activing substance. Interesting how many times you might get an unexpected dose through the use of food additives and the trigger substance used in a recipe. Oh, please don't let it be caffine. The highways are a mess as it is with cell phones and drivers...

No drivers license here. Never cared for it.:) Just a bycicle and two legs to walk on.

So you noticed all the garbage that is added to our food and drinking supplies? Good. Do something about it. For it is outrageous how much artificial garbage is added to the foodsupplies now a days. Even corn and weat are modified.

Jezus, you sound very depressed by all those adds in your food.;)

Smoke a nice joint...it'll do you good.:)

Without garbage added. Lets keep it that way. :cool: (notice the three dots are missing!)

damn i still can't quit ...

I wonder if that has a double meaning???

uh oh, I'm picking up new bad habits!!!

arrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhh

What i dont understand is why they just dont legalize marijuana. The only reason it is illegal is because of the money its racks in from fines and because drugs are a scapegoat for cime and violence. the government uses drug money for its advantages and has been doing it for years. if marijuana was legalized, aside from all the media hype, its could rack in millions. 1. people could grow it, major agriculture advantages. 2 the government could tax the fuck out of it just like cigarettes. 3 i personally think the world would be a happier place if you could smoke a bowl of fine herb whenever and wherever you please. thats all i have to say.

One of the main reasons that cannabis etc. has not been fully legalised is that if it were, (in the UK at least) the government would be admiting that they were wrong when they criminalised it about a hundred years ago.
Still, it defies belief that they are altering the legislation slowly and making it more legal whilst sayng that it is not being decriminalised.
They're thinking of the tax they could levy on it while trying to save face.
Balmy, completely balmy.

Banshee

You are right again.

There's nothing more relaxing.
(you can still use your three dots... it adds a cetrain something!)

Governments want to have control over everything. How can they legalise Marijuana without making themselves looking ridiculous? Because first they say:'It is a drug, so illegal'. Than they say:'Ok, you can have 30 grams of it for your own use, but no oil made of Cannabis, for that has a to high THC degrade(?), thus it is a 'hard drug'.

They don't know what they want or don't know how to handle this properly. In America you are busted if they only find one filter of a joint. Hell, you get busted there if they only smell it.:(

Than you have that stupid 'stepping stone' theory, that if you start smoking Cannabis, you will end up doing Heroin. That is so untrue...

Advice to all the governments, everywhere on Earth...Try a good joint and relax. It is so nice and perhaps the hate and anger will calm down in the minds of certain world leaders.;)

Legalise Marijuana now!!!...:)

the stepping stone or gateway drug concept, if it is true, is true because marijuana is lumped in with worse drugs in the illegal bin. When people try pot which is easier to get and less stigmatized and see it isn't as bad as it's made out to be, they start wondering what else the government may be wrong about.

In HS after I first puffed I tried a lot of other stuff and regretted trying most and generally never did the others again. Though all in all the most miserable drug experiences I've had in my life all involved alcohol. And it's the one they chose to have legal for the masses.

In the US they banned alcohol and herb in the same period of time for the same basic reasons. Since people were so hooked on drinking, it was re-legalized and marijuana wasn't. If the people puffing back then were just a little less lazy ...

so hooked on drinking, it was re-legalized and marijuana wasn't.

An excellent point.

It is widely understood that marijuana has no physically addictive qualities, unlike nicotine and alcohol.
There can develope a slight psychological addiction to the substance, which is easily ovecome.

Legalising marijuana in its raw leaf form would allow it to be smoked without mixing with tobacco.
People can become addicted to nicotine from having to mix weed with cigarettes.

The potential to progress through the cannabis gateway on to harder drugs exists for exactly the reasons scilosopher gave.
By keeping cannabis outside the law, people are forced to visit dealers.
In most instances, this will be their only point of contact with someone capable of providing them with schedule 'A' substances.
If cannabis were available from the newsagents or the chemist this point of contact would never exist for the vast majority of people.

The police could focus more effectively on crimes that actually hurt people.

I'm with banshee

Legalise it. Sooner the better.

Yes...exactly!:)

That is what makes me most angry about the subject Marijuana. That the addictive garbage, called alcohol, is freely available in the stores. It makes humans agressive and in need for more of the alcohol. A lot of damage is done by drinking to much and to often.:( And that is legal, really crazy!

And it is just as Esp says, you have to go to a dealer to get your Marijuana and in a lot of cases these dealers sell some other drugs too. So it is easy than to take some of that.

That is why I like it in the Netherlands more, because of the Coffee-shops, which only sell Marijuana and Hasjiesj. No other drugs available.;) And bet on it that there really is NO other available but Marijuana and Hasjiesj.

To my regret I have to admit that I've used different kinds of hard drugs also. It was literally a hell of a time and it took me some energy to get rid of that poison.:(

But that is a long time ago and I learned my lesson very well. Only use Marijuana, and even that I don't have at the moment.

Could use a nice joint right now, with or without tobacco...:)

With or without tobacco ... please go with without. Tobacco spoils the lovely taste and scent of herb.

I wasn't always opiniated on this point until someone packed me a bong hit with tobacco w/o warning me. The guy was french, but he knew I preferred it w/o. I almost puked.

Just say no to tobacco, I mean come on haven't you seen the commercials on TV, it can give you lung cancer and kills millions ... ;)

The legalization of marijuana should not be on trial here. The use of pot is not a legal issue. It is an health issue.

Unfortunately the "crime" of smoking a spliff has also become a burden to the criminal justice system and a mildly irritating police record for some innocent people.

The case should be thrown out of court immediately so we can, at the very least, stop wasting taxpayer dollars. Clearly we should make way for more serious criminal cases to process (banning gas powered leaf blowers for example).

Its ridiculous. Up north in Canada the largest cash crop export for one of its provinces was ganja. (where the heck are they growing it!?!) :eek:

Lets deal with it for what it is; a health issue.

just some random thoughts which came up while reading this:

THC gland/bacteria
I've observed that heavily blowing people (several per day) getting mental damage, esp. paranoia. [i'm _not_ saying this means blowing is worse than alcohol etc, as i've seen adverse effects here too]. This means a continuous feed of THC by genetech bacteria/gland would not have the desired effect of happiness. Anyway, i support the idea that you can only notice peaks in life when you have the occasional normal periods or even depths.

Cake
Some years ago someone in my house made butter for a spacecake, and dumped the used (now greasy) plantparts in the waste bin. A rather large dog ate it and for about 30 hours it walked unsteady through the house looking very confused. ;)

Stepping stone theory
I agree with what's been said against this theory.

Please please dont take this the wrong way.
Given the opportunity of going tobaccoless I'd do it in a shot.
But points to consider :-

Cannabis is seven, yes, seven times more carcinogenic that tobacco. This probably comed from the double benzoate rings in the THC chemical structure.

Raw leaf doesn't have the additives tht cigarettes have, such as ammonium salts to speed up absorbtion or arsenic or ay of the other shocking things which are actually added to tobacco.

While no-one's ever died directly from cannabis overdose, ther theorized overdose level is sixty thousand times the effective dose.

Nicotine in such concentrations would be a deadly poision on it's own.

Cannabis has many documented benefits in a medical sense, from MS to eating disorders and stress. But the situation with our knowledge of cannabis is that we are still unaware of the majority of it's potential.

___________________

Having experimented with various drugs in the past, sched.A as well as B and C, there is only one which I still take with any regularity, and thats MJ.

In conclusion, there are very few things in my opinion worse that the hangover from a bottle of scotch.

Chrisy, as stated before...Don't use it all day long.:)

I just smoke it in the evening and most of the time two during the evening and one before going to sleep, in bed, with a book and a glass of hot milk. Nothing nicer than that.;)

As far as health concerns, I am in an 'ideal' situation here, because of a failed surgery in which the 'good' surgeon failed to cut my nerves down well enough. So that I am in constant pain at that place. The Marijuana eases this coming and going of pain waves down. I can assure you that it is certainly NOT funny to live with this.

And it is no lame excuse to use Marijuana, for I used it before also. But it DOES help, believe me.

On prescription, you can get that (expensive) pill, but you have to pay for it yourself. The insurance doesn't have it in its pocket yet. And I prefer the Herb, not a pill. I hate medication.:rolleyes: I am stuck to medication to ease that stupid pain down and I really hate it. The medication doesn't help that well and the use of Marijuana with it, makes it bearable.

I know a lot of cases, diseases, in which the Marijuana brings relief and these humans only use it for their pain. I could work with the pain, just becsause the MJ made me feel better in easing that everlasting pain down.

As far as tobacco goes, that is for everybody him/herself to decide. An inhalor is better for your health. But hey, even the air you breath is not so healthy now a days...:)

Banshee,
Sorry to hear you're in so much pain. Out of curiosity would you still smoke if you weren't? (also is that why you call yourself banshee ... lot's of screaming?)

in terms of herb being 7 times as carcinogenic, I'm curious if anyone knows how that number was determined. I'm always dubious of "research" relating to illegal drugs as sometimes the politics obscures the science. Is it 7 times as carcinogenic as the tobacco companies say tobacco is, for instance?

Thank you for the laugh I've had about your reply.;) I don't call myself Banshee, because of the screaming, no...Just a nickname which I like. Nothing more, nothing less.

And yes, I will smoke Marijuana as long as I can. But not day in, day out.:)

As far as the tobacco and the MJ goes and how 'bad' it is...I really don't know. Now a days even the Air you breath is somewhat 'dangerous', so I don't care so much. I have no other 'bad' habits, but smoking Marijuana.

For someone else to answer this question...:)

Glad to hear you aren't sitting around screaming in pain, I prefer picturing you laughing ... :D

Thank you Scilosopher.:) I wish for everyone to be happy with as less uneasiness and a lot of laughter in life.

With or without Marijuana.;)

Talk to you later. Have a nice day...

Banshee,
I am so pleased to hear that you hurt no more.;)

You may think it a flimsy reason but my illness is depression.

St. Johns Wort seems to help a lot. You don't notice the effect of it till you run out. Try to imagine feeling the most bored you have ever been, for a full day.
The herb helps an awful lot.

I've heard reports that MJ is a long term psycho-depressant.
That's not consistant with my personal experience.

I personally never use MJ until everything I need to do for the day is done.

Esp, the hurt never stops completely, but it is more bearable with the Marijuana.:)

I am sorry to hear you are depressed. Perhaps I should post the lyrics from 'On The Turning Away', for the other members. I thought about posting it before, but didn't know where exactly.

Marijuana works on your feelings. If you feel 'bad', it can make you paranoid, but it can help you to feel more comfortable also, if you know you are going to feel better by using it. Guess it is the attitude in which you use Marijuana.:) If you know you can relax after your daily business is done, you look forward to it and than it really helpls you to relax and feel better.

Guess it is a anti depressant than. Humans who use it all day long can get very depressed if the Marijuana is done and they don't have enough to go through the day. That is the wrong way to use this pleasure Herb.

Nice to see you changed your sig in another Pink Floyd sentence...;)

I guess that the best place to share that great song would be in free thoughts.
D'you know, I just might do that.
:)

If we're going to start talking about good Floyd songs off later albums I think 2 Suns in the Sunset off the final cut is a good one. I don't remember if that was actually their last album with Waters still in the band - The name would make it well suited to that and it is pretty close.

I wanted to go to the wall tour when I was in 5th grade, w/ my older bro who was in 7th grade and some of his pot smoking friends who were in high school (just for clarity I never smoked until HS and wouldn't have). I wasn't allowed to go - go figure. Sucks though, I've never seen Floyd w/Waters and it just wasn't the same w/o. They were still awesome when I saw them. Their first song the first time I saw them was Astronomy Domine, and I was so psyched that they were actually playing old stuff I forgot to light the spliff I had rolled for the first song ... I guess herb ain't the only thing that makes you forget stuff.

EDIT: does anyone else find the WEEED advertisements funny in the context of this thread 100% legal. I bet $50 it's less healthy.

Yes, The Final Cut was the last Pink Floyd album with Roger Waters.:) Great album. Roger Waters solo i svery good too. Try it out and listen to it if you have the time. It may surprise you in a very nice way.;)

And yes, I like the WEEEED advertisement. Think it is a good idea. And I like the leaf of the Herb so much. Used to have one on my coat. Prefer the real leaves though.:)

By the way, I have been to Pink Floyd with Roger Waters, in the Animals tour in the Netherlands. Wonderful show. Great performers...:)

Lucky bastard. Animals and Dark Side of the Moon are my two favorite albums ...

I actually have Amused to Death and was listening to it last night. I've heard some of the others, but not recently. Definitely good stuff.

scilosopher, did you get my pm? I might have fuc*ed the adressee box up.

Isn't it strange, as soon as you start talking about weed, floyd and waters pop up!
Did I mention that my tickets to see waters in Birmingham arrived a little while ago? :) :)

I want to go to the Roger Waters concert also and I don't have tickets. Want to break down and cry about it. Well, some other place, somewhere, some other time.;) I can't have it all. At least, that is what I am telling myself right now. If it helps is another case. :(

Yeah, wonder why PF and RW show up here in the Marijuana thread. Must have a reason, one way or another. Perhaps the Music sounds even more wonderful with a nice joint with it? Can't imagine that, but hey, at the other hand, I can imagine that rather well.:cool:

Oh, I am really babbling here. I leave it with this. And I am not even stoned, nor do I have any Marijuana to use at the moment. Still I babble pretty well. Imagine how bad I am WITH Marijuana...:)

For those of you interested.

As far as I know the current criminalization of marijuana began in the United States. The primary reason for the creation of marijuana prohibition was profit. Not the profit of the government, police departments, private prison system, etc. that most people assume is the primary motivating factor in the prohibition.

No mj is prohibited for one reason, Paper. In the days of old , High quality paper was manufactured using short fibers from the hemp plant. The problem with this is that it was difficult to separate the long fibers and the short fibers for paper manufacture.

Interesting enough just as soon as an inexpensive mechanical process for separating these fibers was patented, Mr. Mellon (who was head of the U.S. treasury department at the time) appointed a head of Drug enforcement who was extremely against the use of any euphorics for his twisted MORAL reasons. Then with a lot of help lobbying from Dupont and their affiliates, Congress passed mj laws to criminalize cannabis and more importantly Hemp. No more paper could be made without the use of Duponts newly invented paper chemicals. Mellon had no conflict of interest here. He was Duponts banker and helped bankroll the development of the paper chemical line.

MJ is illegal today and will continue to be illegal, at least in the US, so that Hemp cannot be grown in enough quantity to make paper. Thus no competition for the paper chemical companies. Their profit is much more important than the freedom of the people, the constitution of the US, the environment which these paper chemicals and their byproducts have been polluting for years, eyesight for those afflicted with glaucoma, extended life for cancer and aids patients, or the rights of the citizens of the world that this profit motivated prohibition has infringed upon.

Chipsanddust,
not that you're wrong, but why wouldn't they just develop their ability to grow hemp? And where do hemp clothing and jewelry come from if not hemp?

The reason given by chipsanddust is certainly new to me, but sounds plausable.
I learned something today!

Interesting fact....
While the degree of criminality in th uk is slowly being decreased, this is how it used to be:

Cannabis- illegal to possess, grow, traffic, buy or sell.
It's technically not illegal to smoke it, but if it's in your bloodstream, it's possession.

You figure it out!

MJ seeds are sold as hamster food. They're supposed to be denatured, but how do the authorities know?

Maybe that explains imahamster's love of seeds ...

I'm sure it ain't the dank though ...

Scilosopher:

I got my information originally from an online article from The Economist. Unfortunately that particular article seems to have been moved to the 'by subscription only' section of their website.

The primary reason for the mj prohibition to begin with was to eliminate the growing of hemp. No profits were to be made by the chemical companies if hemp was used for paper instead of trees. No paper chemicals are needed for high quality hemp paper. As far as cloth and seed is concerned, there are a few states that allow the limited growing of hemp for these purposes as long as special licenses are procured. As far as I know, though, the vast majority of hemp products come from outside of the U.S.

If you are interested just about the same information is presented here:

http://www.jackherer.com/chapters.html (www.jackherer.com/chapters.html)

Although this is not quite as reputable a source as The Economist.

Typical U$. I bet it would be totally different if they could raise a good high tax out of it.

Makes you wonder why criminality decreases in the U.K.

Perhaps the U$ gorvernment should try it out. Guess that will never happen. They prefer to drown in money there. Everything has its price in the states, nothing is for free. :confused:

Well, I have to say that they do that better in the Netherlands. The Marijuana is from a high quality and no fuzzing about it by the government. No taxes about it either.

Than again, I wonder if the owners of the coffee-shops have to pay taxes for only their shop or the Marijuana also. I'll have to find out about that...;)

Great they are screwed up on both counts. Lovely.

Thanks for the link it was interesting.

scilosopher:

I finally found the Economist article I was telling you about:http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=706591

Banshee: Listening to you talk about the Netherlands has gotten me very interested in visiting there. I was never interested in anywhere in Europe before being more inclined to head out into the bush myself. But I must say you have me very tempted to drop my savings on a plane ticket and check you all out.

Chipsanddust

You will never leave the Netherlands again, once you've been there. It is a lot more free there. Life itself is more free in the Netherlands. Not so much strict laws as the U$ has and the police is much more friendly. If they stop you and find Marijuana, you get that back when they are done with you. And they listen first and nearly ever shoot.:)

And you can go free into the Woods whenever you want, without paying money to have a good long walk in the Woods. No fences which keep you out. Yeah, some times at particul places where some humans live. It nearly occurs that you can't go into the Woods there.

And the Marijuana is so good. You would love it.:) Coffee-shops are everywhere to be found, just look at the Weed Leaf on the window.;)

If you ever get the chance, then go there or the U.K. Don't know the U.K. very well though. Perhaps Esp can tell you more about that country. Germany I don't like that mich. They have a big mouth and there are much more strict rules over there. And don't let them catch you in Germany with Marijuana, for then you are busted and locked away immediately...

Great article thanks again. Though it doesn't get into the hemp part which I found interesting as well.

I've always wondered about whether companies design stuff to wear out after a certain period of time so they can sell more and not lose out on consumers from having products that last too long. It's interesting to note how many things you buy that stop working right after the warranty. Anyway I don't want to get off topic, but oddness like that has always made me wonder.

I think the main problem which was touched on, but not elaborated was the damage in trust that goes on when policy leads to people lying about how damaging drugs are. Furthermore, by not being honest it makes it much more difficult for anyone who does think using certain drugs may have their benefits. Discerning where to draw the line becomes blurred and that makes it harder to know when you are doing too much (especially if the damaging affects are not apparent until much later). In the economist I would think they might touch on the damage it has towards being an intelligent consumer.

Anyways, I'm surprised you've never wanted to go to the netherlands, almost everyone I know who truly enjoys smoking herb has dreamed of trips to Amsterdam (and Jamaica - though it's polices have gotten more strict). My problem is that I like relaxing vacations and knowing my occasional lack of restraint, a trip to amsterdam might require a second vacation and I would probably miss out on some of the other reasons to go (like the red light district [just kidding]).

Prince Harry, second son of Charles and Diana, has been outed as a pot head!

The confirmed reports in today's media stated that he also indulged in under age drinking.
His father, Prince Charles, 1st in line to the throne, has arranged for him to attend a heroine clinic with real Junkies.

Just an interesting snippet!

Great first line ... you should be in advertising or something (other than the fact it is a boring meaningless and mind warping field).

So he's not eligible to be king anymore? My dad never outed me thank god ... I did all of the above. As do many kids his age. The perks and problems of being royalty. Then again he's the second son, so he might not be risking much.

Banshee:

I am really very interested in visiting your country. One thing I would like to do first is to at least become somewhat familiar with the language. I have been looking for resources on the dutch language for a while now and am having no luck. I have had several good tutorials on spanish (as I am interested in the wildlife of central and south america) and have found books and tutorials for german, french, italian, japanese, russian and even chinese. NOTHING on Dutch. I hear that the language has an interesting grammatical structure and would like to learn a bit before I visit.

Do you have any idea where I could get some good learning materials to familiarize myself with before I make my vacation plans.

Should be in advertising...
Well, I work for the company that owns Fox and The Times so that's almost there!

I dont think that it's affected his right on succession though.

Don't know where to find anything you can learn Dutch, it looks a little like German though. If you want to learn Dutch, I'll be at your service. Just let me know.

Esp, I've read that article about prince Harry. Poor boy, to be sent off to a rehab. They better take Prince Charles there too, to get off his addiction for other women.;) Can't be nice to have him for a father.

Scilosopher, you are right about the red light district. Traffic lights all over the place in Amsterdam and other (big) cities in the Netherlands. And a lot of one way streets too.:) It is worth the 'trouble', I assure you. Nice city, Amsterdam, been there many, many times. be sure you visit De Melkweg (Milkyway) when you go there. Always good Live Music there and you can buy your Marijuana, Hasj and Spacecake in there. Just as simple as that. No questions asked...:cool:

Oh, good old Amsterdam, I am about to go there. Be careful though, a lot of pickpockets there also.

By the way, I really believe I am not 'damaged' in any way by using Marijuana and I use it for a long time now. About 26 years that is...

esp, they are certainly big mediums for passing on advertisment, but I would guess you have a more interesting/honest job than advertising. I wasn't sure what outed meant, I'm glad to hear he hasn't lost his right to succesion.

Banshee, I've only been smoking for 8 (I'm only 26 so it would have been tough to match you) - at times too intensely. I've smoked almost every day during those eight years. I've definitely noticed a reduction in sharpness, memory, and speed of thought. Though when I ease up the effects tend to reverse. I'm not sure if any of the affects are permanent. I'm not sure if any permanent decrease in ability should be blamed on smoking. That's why studies are nice it can help clarify what isn't obvious to a single person. If I thought it was really damaging I would certainly have stopped by now. It is possible though that studies aimed at intelligent use could give helpful guidelines in maximizing the enjoyment in relation to the negative side efffects.

You're making me jealous with the amsterdam comments. I wish I could meet you there and enjoy some good herb. What has always attracted me is the variety available.

You are right Scilosopher.:) It is good to do some studying about the subject. I am 41 by now, that is why I use the Herb for such a long time. I was 15 when I started using Marijuana. Used to use it every day. At the moment I don't use it though. (For now!;))

I was terrible way back in my teens and early twenties. Used a lot of garbage in those days. Not only Marijuana. Stopped with the garbage and the Marijuana stayed. Perhaps it has taken some of my brains, could be. I am not such a thinking person anyway and I am still capable of doing what I always did and my knowlegde has increased over the years. With the use of Marijuana, so I don't know if it really affects the memory or not. The things I learned at school, I still know and I studied at the University when I was off the garbage. maybe I am just lucky not to have damaged myself completely, for the garbage, you better stay away from. Got a lot of trouble by getting rid of it.

Wish I could meet you in Amsterdam. Always a lot of fun there. And there are a lot of different kinds in Marijuana and Hasj you can buy there, yes.:)

News Flash!

The UK govt. has leaked (announced) that they are preparing to run further tests on MJ. From this, and the current political climate, experts expect cannibis to be available as a prescription pain killer within the next two years.

Of course, many see this as another step closer to complete legalization.

Wow, that's worth smoking a good joint my friend.:) Perhaps, maybe, in a couple of years the U.K. will give Marijuana free.

Well, the U.K. is a little slow with certain 'things'.:D

Have to admit that they are making progress in this case. there are not many countries which have MJ on prescription. I only know of the Netherlands doing this. In the Netherlands they are sometimes a little to eager with freedom, in different way's then the Marijuana subject.

To free the Marijuana and Hasjiesj was a wonderful decision. It is cheep too.;)

Good to hear another country is coming to its senses in the 'Legalize Marijuana Now' subject.

It's about time though. A lot of humans will have less pain with this Herb...:cool:

A link about all this stuff:

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/

*But recent changes in the drugs policy may have unintentionally jeopardised the separation between dope and harder drugs. In 1996, coffee shops were banned from selling to anyone under 18, which has "thrown a big vulnerable group onto the street", says Arjan Roskam, head of a union for coffee-shop owners.

While the amendment was intended to delay the age at which teenagers start experimenting with drugs, it has probably only diverted users to less regulated sources. According to the Trimbos Institute, a mental health and addiction centre in Utrecht, about 10 per cent of under-age smokers now buy from criminal suppliers.*

This is what I experienced with some friends of my son, who is almost 15 by now.

Because of them getting 'bad' Marijuana and for a much to high prize, as well for themselves as for their low money budget, I bought it sometimes for them. I can hear the comments already, think about it before you jump all over me. The boy's wanted to smoke it at any price. Didn't matter in what way they could lay their hands on it. Their parents punished them heavily for only smoking a cigarette. As most people know very well, the young boy's and girls will do it then just more persistive. Best way to handle this, is let them smoke.

So I bought 'good' Marijuana for them and they even smoked it at my home. It decreased in a while. Oh, they want to smoke it still, it is just not that attractive any more, because they can do it whenever they want. And it is really no fun to be high on Marijuana during the day, when you have all kind of things to do.

What happened was that the forbidden 'fruit', was not forbidden any more. Now they smoke every once in a while, Marijuana coming from the Coffee-Shop, not from the streets, where the dealers sell Heroin and Cocain also and bring serious damage to these 'kids'.

I think this was a good way to handle this, I've been in the tredmill of drugs, as well the nasty drugs as the good, old Marijuana. Well, I've learned my lesson the hard way. Don't want this to happen to one of the young boy's who visits my house and shall do everything I can to keep them off the nasty goods.

I will do some more reading on the website you gave and come back here with some more comments, just because I like to do so. I stay with my statement that Marijuana is a good medicine, no matter what...:)

Hey, I won't mind laughing at me, but I never have smoked, used alchocol or drugs in my life and probably never will (I feel no need for them). My thoughts are tht if not too much used marjuana does no harm (not more thn tabacco), but real drugs like coke are really bad and the problem with mj is tht it makes many to try smthing stronger. Just last week two oversmoked russian guys forced them in in one of the summerhouses by the sea shore where a party was going on. a girl was celabrating her 18th byrthday party. she and her friend who prottested on the intrusion were killed by one of the narcs by a shotgun. all others were dressed out, their clothes and mobiles taken and they went away as nthing had happened. they were caught the next day. so in hands of stupid and smart people tht don't think drugs may turn out to be a real disaster as for them and others. Maybe in US the situation is better, but here (if we need to go to suburbs or outskirts of the city) we usually gather 2 or usually more friends and then go in groups, because of the narcs tht don't fear anything and have lost all their logic.

So I guess tht in Latvia the time for legalising marijuana is not right and won't be for another 10 years or so. but I think tht using mj is better than alchocol or smoking tabacco full of chemicals. at least mj is a natural product.
Cheers!
C:\My Documents\My Pictures\legalize.jpg

What a sad story Avatar.:( Guess you are very right here. If there is so much violence and hatred going on, then you better think twice. How sad, that situation in your homeland. Guess those narcs used something much stronger then Marijuana. Only MJ makes you feel more relaxed, not more agressive. Alcohol makes agressive too, quite a bit even. Should have been too much of everything, as happens a lot, also in other countries. Misabuse of drugs and alcohol.

It has a lot to do with your mentality also if you start with the 'hard' drugs or not. When I started to use Marijuana and Hasjiesj, I was in a bad shape, so to say. The Cocaine, LSD and Heroin came in pretty quick. Wish I'd never learned about the 'hard' drugs, for it really is damn hard to get rid of it. Got rid of it a long time ago and I am glad I did so.

I hope the situation will be better in your country in the future. So sad and such a shame to hear how humans treat eachother.:(

And you are right about MJ, it is a pleasure Herb, pure Natural, which helps out in certain diseases too. Alcohol has never pleased me, I don't like it at all. Tobacco came with the first joint...:)

I think tht using mj is better than alchocol or smoking tabacco full of chemicals
avatar

Too true mate :)

You should check out my gateway theory earlier in this thread.
It says that, essentialy, people progress to stronger drugs because mj is illegal.

Because of them getting 'bad' Marijuana and for a much to high prize, as well for themselves as for their low money budget, I bought it sometimes for them. I can hear the comments already, think about it before you jump all over me.

Heb je got mijn votum wanneer u wel eens uitmaken voor stormloop voor naar de " ministerie van Jongeren Programma ". Op verschijnen u zitten zeerst gerechtigd voor voorsprong onze jongeren te zulks millennium en zeker naar de toekomstig van onze wereld. En zeker naar de toekomstig van verdovingsmiddel winkelier.

So I bought 'good' Marijuana for them and they even smoked it at my home. I think this was a good way to handle this, I've been in the tredmill of drugs, as well the nasty drugs as the good, old Marijuana. Well, I've learned my lesson the hard way. Don't want this to happen to one of the young boy's who visits my house and shall do everything I can to keep them off the nasty goods.

Vieren opwaarts naar de zoet werkzaamheden. Wanneer u vieren zij verdoofd steeds , ziedaar zal zitten niet nood voor zij voor vinden van iets verder... zoals te leven bijvoorbeeld.
:)

*Heb je got mijn votum wanneer u wel eens uitmaken voor stormloop voor naar de " ministerie van Jongeren Programma ". Op verschijnen u zitten zeerst gerechtigd voor voorsprong onze jongeren te zulks millennium en zeker naar de toekomstig van onze wereld. En zeker naar de toekomstig van verdovingsmiddel winkelier.*

And now in plain Dutch please. I can make no sense of what you are writing here. Can you explain in plain Dutch what you mean here?

*Vieren opwaarts naar de zoet werkzaamheden. Wanneer u vieren zij verdoofd steeds , ziedaar zal zitten niet nood voor zij voor vinden van iets verder... zoals te leven bijvoorbeeld.*

The same goes for this part. I am real sorry [Q], I don't understand a word of it. Or are you trying to talk South-African here? Than again, I can read that language and what you write down here is a complete mistery to me. Thank you for listening. :)

Esp, you are right. Alcohol and tobacco are no good. I am sorry to say that I can't give up on a shaggie or cigarette so once in a while. A nasty habit, remaining from my 'bad' past...;)

Please please...can we speak in common so everyone can understand?

The Brixton Experiment

Brixton, London. The police's powers of arrest for possession were withdrawn. On the spot cautions were the maximum punishment.

At the conclusion of the experiment, this small regional police force reported that by operationg under the experimental regulations, they had the equivalent of TWO extra officers.
Paperwork!

*shrugs* I read this thread with disbelieve..OMG...I thought everybody used pot for pain, depression, upset tummies, prayer, meditation, and of course fun smiles..... Tomatoes with ThC would entice me to have "more" BLT's

and I thought people used it to make the current crap on tv actually watchable ... maybe that just falls under pain relief.

LOL TV is a brainless and thoughtless form of entertainment encouraged by Hollywood to inspire us all to be non thinkers...

Imagine what Hollywood could accomplish if they, the 'great film and TV makers, should smoke some Pleasure Herb before making their BS... :p

In reality when making Lord of the Rings actors smoke weed(statists, small actors) Those who were @ the Bilbo's birthday and especially in tht Pub. They acknowledged it. Director was furious:D
I think they acted quite good;)

I just enjoy trying to figure out ideas motivate popular tv and why. It might be a hopeless venture. Thank god for the writers who do use the mind boggling herb, like those of the simpsons ...

<b> banshee said:</b><i> "The THC is the most important ingredient of this Herb. It is a Natural drug, an Herb, no garbage added ... And please, no artificial garbage with that great, natural pleasure Herb, called Marijuana ... Antibiotics have a lot of nasty side effects, which Marijuana does not." </i>
<b>Avatar</b> (from Latvia): <i>"but I think tht using mj is better than alchocol or smoking tabacco full of chemicals. at least mj is a natural product. </i>"

Banshee is for smoking marijuana, Avatar seems to be against it, at least for personal use. Both are on opposite sides of the subject, but both make the mistake of saying <i>"it is a Natural drug"</i> .. or <i>"Marihuana have no nasty side effects"</i>, believing it is <b>a harmless herb</b>. The marihuana debate has been going on for many years, and will never end, as long as there is somebody who likes the pleasure of getting "high". If he chooses to do it, go ahead, but don't propagandize it because <b>many innocent people</b> would belive it and will suffer the consequences. In a next post I will go into the subject of the "natural drugs" myth.

<b>Tetra hydro cannabinol</b> (THC) is a poison for your inmune system, you like it or not, the same as other "natural drugs" as cocaine, heroin, opium, etc. Natural drugs are as nasty and dangerous as synthetic ones, and sometimes worse. Of course, always depending on the dose. I don't know if one joint a day is harmfull or harmless --there is the issue of drug buildup in your organism, speed and capability of the chemical to be "washed" from the organism, etc. My contribution to this interchange of opinions will be just a few things of what scientists have discovered about marijuana (MJ).

A research team at the Argonne National Laboratory, headed by Dr. Eliezer Huberman (Huberman, E., <i>"Marijuana increases disease risk by inhibiting white blood cells"</i>, Committees of Correspondence: Drug Awareness Information Newsletter, April 1989) discovered that THC, and a number of related chemicals called <b>cannabinoids</b>, arrest the development of at least one group of white blood cells. These white blood cells, known as <b>monocytes</b>,.are a key part of the body's immune defense system. When these cells fail to mature properly they cannot perform their necesary disease-fightning functions. The technical name for this condition is known as <i>maturation arrest</i>, which literally means a failure to grow up and function normally.

The experiments used immature monocytes derived from human leukemia cells to study the effect of various cannabinoids on cell maturation. They used used leukemia cells because they represent a fairly uniform population of immature cells of a single type. In contrast, cells from normal human bone marrow represent an entire spectrum from primitive, undifferentiated forms, to fully mature functional cells, making them useless for studying cell maturation.

The three compunds evaluated were THC (the psychoactive ingedient in MJ), <b>cannabinol</b> (CBN), and <b>cannabidiol</b> (CBD), two other components of MJ that resembles THC. After innoculation with one of the three cannabinoids the cells were cultured for one to six days and then examined. Three were the physical characteristic that marked the cells as "developmentally arrested": First, their size and shape were that of <i><b>promonocytes</b></i> an immature, non-functional cell. Second, the cannabinoid-treated cells did not attach to glass as mature cells would do. Third, the treated cells continued to divide, unlike mature monocytes.

On the other hand, the treated cells did show biochemical and immunological evidence of maturation from more primitive forms. Thus, although THC appeared to initially stimulate development of leukemic cells, this development was subsenquently arrested before the cells became fully mature and functional. This, again, is the phenomenon known as <i>maturation arrest</i>

Furthermore, these changes occurred at concentrations of THC that have been found in the blood plasma <b>of human who have smoked marijuana joints</b>. There are two major consequences of maturation arrest of white blood cells. The first, and most obvius, is that such arrested cells are <b>nonfunctional and therefore ineffective</b> in helping the body to fight a disease. In the case of monocytes, depressed function can cause a numbre of or problems. In the bloodstream, mature monocytes ingest foreign organisms and present them to the T and B lymphocytes for further processing and antibody production. In addition, monocytes secrets a number of chemicals called <i><b>lympokines, which activate other immune cells. </b></i> (Wouldn't this be one of the reasons that keeps the drug addicts at the top of the list of "risk groups" in AIDS?).

The second consequence of "maturation arrest" relates to the fact that the arrested cells still possess the capacity to divide. When the body responds to an infection, for example, a number of substances are produced that stimulates the proliferation of different white blood cells from their primitive precursor cells in the bone marrow. If there is a lack of functional white blood cells because of maturation arrest, the body, sensing the lack of mature cells will continue to stimulate the bone marrow to produce more cells. As a result, there will be a buildup of large number of immature white blood cells in the circulation. If the maturation arrest is severe enough, <b>this defines the condition of leukemia;</b> that is, an excess of immature white blood cells in the circulating system.

These findings (made about 1988), along with studies that indicate that THC causes disturbances in both T and B lymphocytes, as well as reduced resistance to cancer growth and infections by viruses and bacteria, certainly call for precaution when it comes to legalize or advice people to smoke MJ "because it is harmless". <b>It is not. </b> See my next post:

This link will lead you to:
<b><A HREF="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~apfdfy/Suicide.html"> "Suicide / Schizophrenia - Consequences of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use 1996"</A></b>, by Professor Pierre Baume, Director, Australian Institute for Suicide Research Prevention, Belmont Private Hospital. Here are some excerpts from the long, well referenced article:

<font color="blue">"Two statements by Christie and Chesher has compelled us to update our paper "Suicide/ schizophrenia: consequences of acute and chronic cannabis use" (Baker, 1988) presented to a number of committees in 1988, 1989 and 1990 with eighty-six references being cited and in the words of Dr J. McGrath, Director of Postgraduate Studies, Queensland Department of Health, "I agree with the main thrust of the paper, that cannabis can worsen schizophrenia." (Letter from Dr J. McGrath..., 1989).

"This is an illness with a very high suicide rate (10%) and because of this every effort should be taken to keep people compliant with treatment. Abstinence from illicit drugs such as marijuana is crucial in maintaining people with the illness in remission." ...

"Also, a statement by M. Bolton, Director of the Queensland Department of Health, "I certainly agree that the cannabis group of drugs have potentially serious and wide-ranging side effects and that there is no room for complacency by the community in this area.". (Letter from M. Bolton..., 1989)"

"Marijuana has been described by schizophrenic patients as both anxiolytic and activating, alcohol as relaxing. These powerful drugs, combining in the young, undeveloped body, could very well have disastrous consequences in later life."

"CANNABINOIDS BEING FAT SOLUBLE, THUS ALLOWING THC MOLECULES TO BE ABSORBED BY LIPIDS IN THE CELL MEMBRANE OF THE BRAIN WHICH CAN CAUSE MEMORY LOSS."

"The effects of cannabis on memory has been well documented (Deahl, 1991, p. 249) and the conclusion reached is that persistently heavy marijuana use induces significant and surprisingly long-lasting deficits of short-term memory (Schwartz, 1990; Nahas, 1991, pp. 16-17)."

"One may presume that individuals with learning disabilities who struggle to concentrate and to learn and remember important information in high school and college might be even more susceptible to marijuana-induced short-term memory deficits." (Schwartz, 1990)

<font size="5" color="red"><b> We must remember that it is impossible to learn without memory.</b></font>

"Higher doses of 9-THC can induce frank hallucinations, delusions, and paranoid feelings. Thinking becomes confused and disorganized; depersonalisation and altered time sense are accentuated. Anxiety reaching panic proportion may replace euphoria, often as a result of feeling that the drug-induced state will never end... Use of marihuana can also cause an acute exacerbation of symptomatology in stabilized schizophrenics, and is an independent risk factor for the development of schizophrenia." (Extract from Goodman & Gilman, 1991, pp. 2-3)"

"Also, <i>"Smoking marijuana may impair the body's immune system by preventing complete development of certain white blood cells. This may cause the immune system to function less effectively, making marijuana users more susceptible to disease."</i> (Huberman, 1989, p. 1). Eliezer Huberman is director of Argonne National Laboratory's division of biological and medical research."

"THC is almost 100 per cent protein bound. It is highly lipid soluble and plasma levels decline rapidly after inhalation followed by a slow elimination phase." (Levy, 1990, p. 644) We know 9-THC crosses the placenta and also "In heavy users breast milk analysis of 9-THC [reveals] an eightfold accumulation compared with maternal plasma. The nursing infant can absorb 9-THC from mother's milk." (p. 645).

"Using the Brazelton Neonatal Behavioral Assessment Scale, smoking cannabinoids during pregnancy correlated with a decrease in the likelihood of the offspring to respond to light directed at their eyes (46% did not respond ... in contrast to 16% of babies born to matched non-users)... Marked tremor, mainly around day 9 of life, and startle reflex are other characteristic features described in newborns of heavy cannabinoid users." (p. 646)

"If we only compare <b><u>marijuana with tobacco smoking</u></b>, the <i>"...total burden of tar to the lungs and absorption of carbon monoxide ... <b>are four times greater when smoking marijuana.</b>" (Wu, 1988, pp. 30-31)."

"The property of cannabis to induce long-lasting mental disturbances in Western man now epidemiologically documented, would confirm older anecdotal reports from mediaeval Islam (1396), India (1878-1972), Egypt (1843-1925), Brazil (1955), Bahamas (1970) and Jamaica (1976). Cannabis-induced psychosis would provide evidence that the repetitive disturbance of brain neuro-transmission carries the most serious risk of impairing lastingly the basic biochemical neural mechanisms which control coherent behaviour."</i> (pp. [11-12])</font>

So it is not only bad for your immune system, but it plays havoc in the brain. <b>Harmless?</b> Just because it does not contain synthetic additives?. If you want to keep smoking MJ, it is a risk you have chosen for yourself. <b>But don't tell other people that MJ is "harmless".</b>

Wow those were some big posts Edufer. Everything has it's troubles in excess. What are the stats on alcohol? How about ridalin? prozac?

Scilosopher, yeah, The Simpsons...:) :) The makers of that must have been stoned! :) Wonderful to look at that television 'family'.

The lectures by Edufer were to long, I can't comprehend such long articles, my memory is blocked because of the THC. :bugeye: My apologies... Momentarily lapse of reason I presume...;)

Banshee,
Did you see the Simpsons this week? Homer gets prescribed medicinal marijuana and coincidentally it has one of the most random plots of all time.

Lectures rarely are effective. It is better to positively propose a system of thought or perspective which is contrary to smoking ...

Originally posted by scilosopher
Banshee, Did you see the Simpsons this week? Homer gets prescribed medicinal marijuana and coincidentally it has one of the most random plots of all time ... Lectures rarely are effective. It is better to positively propose a system of thought or perspective which is contrary to smoking ...

Banshe and Scilosopher: It is sad to learn you took my contribution intended to give you the other side of the story as a lecture. I used to attend lectures during the early part of my life, and I am glad I did. I learned a lot, believe it or not, as I was the guy that always kept asking the lecturer "why", "how", "when", "who" and "where". Those five questions are the basis of science and knowledge. Later in my life, I was the one who was invited to give lectures, and I was glad when somebody asked those questions, because I saw there was an inquiring mind.

You were making statements and comments, so I intruded in your chat and innocently wanted to give my side of the story, this time from the scientific point of view. Yours were an exchange of recolections and emotional experiences, so I'll do my last contribution this time from an emotional point of view.

My personal experience with MJ might be purely anecdotal, but it served me. I went to the USA at the age 23, back in 1960, to study Commercial Art and Advertising at the Art Students League in New York, and later at the Pratts Institute (there were no CAD and computer art then, you had to draw or paint with your own hands, so help you God, your genes and talent). <b>ALL</b> my friends smoked MJ or Hashish, none was on cocaine or heroin --yet. Among my friends were Jack Kerouac, Norman Mailer, and Robert Frank, the photographer, although I was much younger than them. I was at the party when Mailer stabbed his wife, no one know for what reason, but I can guess why he did it.

They always offered to share their joints with me, but I gently refused. I did smoke cigarretes (about 10 a day, but quit smoking them in 1969) and many years after I developed a taste for Cuban cigars -one good Partagas a day, no inhaling, just savouring it in the mouth- and drank about 1 can of beer every two to three days. No whiskey, gin or vodka or any kind of hard liquor. I was the black sheep in the bunch.

As I always had a scientific mind, at last I decided to give it a try, but first I had ready paper, pen, and a tape recorder, and away we went smoking pot. We got high --a sensation that disgusted me very much-- and talked about "very profound matters", I played the guitar and improvised some jazz at the piano. All was taped in my Geloso tape recorder, and we made drawings that were kept to posterity. Everybody were delighted by my music, our drawings and our talk. Deep, profound philosophy, and we thought our sensitivity had been elevated to sublime grounds. Then everybody went home to sleep.

Next morning, I rewinded the tape and listened to the talk and the music. Then looked at the drawings. I couldn't believe my ears and eyes! How could I have said such simplistic, stupid things, how could I have played such clumsy jazz, and did incredibly idiotic drawings! Everybody believed we were being geniuses at the moment. Under the light of reason we had been a bunch of morons.

Maybe MJ acted differently on me because it was my first (and only time), but it acted on the others in the same way it did on me. It took us about three or four levels down in our creativity and reasoning. It converted us into paleolithic human beings. So I decided that (besides the awful sensation of being high) if MJ was going to make me talk like an idiot, I'd better stay away from it. Much, much later I discovered that MJ had quite nasty side effects on the brain and the genes, so I guess I was just plain lucky I didn't smoke again.

My son and daughter don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, and make me go out to the front porch when I take out my Cuban cigar for smoking when we watch the Simpsons. We enjoy the Simpsons because it is a faithful picture of how sick the American society has become. You might not be aware of the fact, because you are immersed in the medium without recognizing it, like the fish that only become aware there is something called "water" when it is taken out of it. Did you know that artists are the only ones that first recognize the changes occurring in society? (According to Marshall McLuhan, of course, and I agree with him).

So please excuse me for my intruding. Next time I see somebody discussing with emotional arguments as a basis for keep doing something that harm their health, I'll stay out of the matter. :cool: :cool:

Scilosopher,, no, I am so sorry I've missed that. http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pascal/images/smilies/banghead.gif Must have been a great episode! Maybe I'll see it anyway, when it's in the rerun. I really hope so...http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pascal/images/smilies/s012.gif

What happened with Homer? Now I'm curious...http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pascal/images/smilies/bleu.gif

banshee: congratulations for your great animated .gifs. Those smilies are beautiful! Where did you get those from?

Edufer,
You knew some interesting people (though Jack Kerouac is the only whos work I'm really familiar with). I like lectures in the sense of talks on academic subjects which one chooses to go to. The type of lecture I was objecting to was the type where someone preaches at you how you should think in a nonconversational fashion. I actually appreciate primary information and reviews on marijuana research, but much of what I have seen does is clearly politically biased so I tend to not believe the conclusions that are summed up for general consumption.

I never said I thought smoking pot was all good. I have enjoyed it on many levels. It has made me say and do many stupid things, but it has also made me reach many profound realizations that are still profound once sober. It has also helped me get in better touch with many aspects of myself and my emotions. By the same token it clearly has degraded my memory in practice, though during the windows I've quite that effect has always gone away. I also don't remember my dreams when I smoke and I miss them.

I think avoiding substance abuse including alcohol, cigarettes, and even caffeine (especially some coffee drinkers I know) is highly respectable. I wish the role of alcohol consumption was not central to socialization the way it is. By the same token in a society that is so ingrained with ideals of freedom based on rebellion I think that the legal issue often clouds the process of deciding whether consuming any drug is beneficial. Underage drinkers are much worse about binge drinking than those who can attain it legally ...

Edufer, I apologize for the nasty reply I gave on your post. Most of that, I already know. :)

I've mentioned in earlier posts, that it's case, to use the Marijuana not all day long, like some people I know, do. When used in the proper way, it brings less damage and violence then Alcohol, for instance. I am not going to repeat myself.

Marijuana has proven to be a good pain killer by certain diseases. It really takes a lot of pain away. Of course, the main reason people use it, is for pleasure. The medical world has discovered Marijuana to be as a good solution for people who suffer from chronical pain, caused by nerve pain, cancers and arthritis, for instance. Guess it is better to use marijuana then the chemical drugs, which contain a lot more "garbage", so to say. Now I didn't mention everything here, for then I'm repeating myself, again, and I don't want to repeat myself every time. Ok?

The Smilies are from another Forum, where I post so every once in a while. They are good, aren't they? I really like these Smilies very much... :) :)

Just to point out the semi-obvious ... it's 4/20!

Well, i hope we can revive this thread, its very interesting. Does anyone know whether hashish is worst for you than MJ. like, say for memory loss.

i've found that, certainly, i;m slower and less motivated when i've smoked, but when off, the clouds pass.

i worry that it effects memory, but dont know whether it affects short-term memory loss only in the short-term, or also long term, i.e. is yr short term memory shot for life.

Mostly Harmless: go to this link and read all about the effects of Marijuana and hash on the brain cells, memory and long term effects of cannabis:

<A HREF="http://mitosyfraudes.8k.com/INGLES/MarihuanaUse.html"> <b>"Consequences of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use"</b></A>

There are other links, but I think this is serious enough to give you a general idea. I hope it will be useful.

Ehh, your link/paper seems to vear more towards the idea that cannabis is bad for the schizo, hey, I AGREE. Probably not a good idea.

but in this day and age of decreasing entertainment, where t.v. is the only one which replaces outdoor activities, i think your brain gets tired and prefers what you refer to as "side effects"

please remember, most people use cannabis, for those very side effects you say are harmful, the hallucinations, the tendency to talk rubbish. what i want to know is how much it will hurt me in the future.

i dont want to encourage anyone to smoke, because since its not easily available, people are not happy with the just one hit, and go to stronger drugs to get that. i've been there.

i just think, right or wrong, its an escape, like drinking, like watching t.v (which i could argue is more harmful). like smoking cigarettes whihc are CERTAINLY MORE ADDICTIVE.

I agree its a mental crutch. and thats not good. but is it a physical one too? not nec.

Hasjiesj make you more slow in acting yes. At least, that's what I've found using it. I prefer Marijuana above the use of Hasjiesj, because on MJ you can do whatever you want without feeling so "slow", so to say.

Probably it will cause some memory loss over the years, if you use it a lot. Hallucinations you get by eating it, as in "Space-Cake". That gives you a real trip. I don't agree with the saying, that a person is gonna use the Harder Drugs, just because they smoke Hasjiesj or MJ. That's a choice you make yourself. It's not a natural follow up from smoking Cannabis.

Of course it is "bad", not as bad as alcohol and smoking cigarettes are. Keep in mind that most people are addicted in a way to Caffeine, alcohol and cigarettes and that's seen as a normal behaviour, while the use of Cannabis is illegal and therefor has a "bad" name. It would be better, really, to legalize Cannabis. It's hard to get yes, in most countries, this makes it much more attractive to people, especially the younger people who want to know what it's like.

IMHO, the memory loss is not as bad as some people seem to think. Think of the memory loss which occurs to people using alcohol. It's much worse. I have been smoking Cannbis for years and years and my memory is perfect.

So, cut the BS and relax. MJ is a nice pleasure herb, useful in the medical world too nowadays.

No withdrawal symptoms too, when you quit smoking Cannabis. Maybe the users who smoke it literally all day long, think they are having withdrawal symptoms, that's more in their mind, not really physical.

Used it for 22 years, every day (not all day long). I quit with it a while ago and am still alive, not having withdrawal symptoms at all and life without MJ is good.

I like to smoke Cannabis, though and if the opportunity comes along, I will certainly smoke a good joint....

I have been smoking Cannabis for years and years and my memory is perfect.

Yes, but that does not say much in regards to your capacity for logic and reason. What happened to that ?

No withdrawal symptoms too, when you quit smoking Cannabis. Maybe the users who smoke it literally all day long, think they are having withdrawal symptoms, that's more in their mind, not really physical.

Oh really ? So the fact that you're introducing a new chemical into your body day after day, month after month, year after year, will not have any physical withdrawal symptoms once the body stops receiving the chemical ? I suppose you also believe there is no long term damage to your lungs either. :rolleyes:

IMHO, the memory loss is not as bad as some people seem to think.

You're deluding yourself. Memory loss is extremely bad. It is the destruction of brain cells. And no, I will not resort to the obvious comedic remarks you've set yourself up for with this statement. I'll leave those to our readers imaginations.

Used it for 22 years, every day (not all day long). I quit with it a while ago and am still alive, not having withdrawal symptoms at all and life without MJ is good.

Withdrawal is the least of your worries if you've been smoking for 22 years. IMO, you are trying to justify the consumption of a drug that has taken hold of your life. You can't stop because you're addicted and can only resort to justification. That constant cough and wheezing should give you some indication a physical problem exists. The thought of smoking another joint within 30 minutes of finishing one should give you some indication of addiction.

(Q), man! You really said it all to poor Banshee... You shouldn't be so hard with him, after all, he's just being honest by telling he was addicted to MJ for 22 years. It is hard for anyone to recognize that something he did during so much time was not completely right. (Or perhaps Banshee thinks it was OK to smoke MJ daily for 22 years?. Smoking 3 joints a day for 22 years means 24,090 joints, at 3 grams per joint that is 72,270 grams, or 72 kilos and a quarter of marihuana!

You really think 72 kilos of trash didn't harm your body, your brain, your liver, your kidneys, stomach, lungs, bladder, prostate, etc.? If you think that marihuna is not trash just because it is a "natural" product, you should remeber that tobacco and alcohol are also "natural" products.

Alcohol is not natural? You should see then that documentary on those South African animals (elephants, ostriches, mandrils, etc) getting drunk at the end of the spring, when they eat all that rotten fruit in the floor that had fermented. Was very funny seeing the monkeys holding their heads suffering from a terrible hangover, and the elephants and ostriches stumbling along and falling to the ground.

But the point is: haschish is much stronger than marihuana. Hash is the pure, concentrated resin, whose potency has increased 50 times in the last strains of marihuana. Hash is collected as an exudation in the marihuana leaves at the field.

Cannabis, as stated in the study I linked you to, has a strong effect on <b>short term memory</b>, not long term memory. That is why students have problems in learning when they smoke: they cannot retain (remember) what they've read or listened. And learning is based in memory: <b>no short term memory, no learning.</b>

You keep smoking cannabis, and you'll remember your child days, but will forget to meet an associate at an appointment made yesterday. Not too dangerous. But you can get fired from your job. And that means trouble. You won´t get more money for dope.
Terrible!

Marehuana is natural. Therefore, it is safe.

Curare is natural. Therefore, it is safe.

That said, I did not find Edufer's study credible, given the author. Nor have I seen very good evidence that marjuana (I'll spell it right some day ;)) is any more harmfull than tobacco, long term.

However, marejuana - oh bloody hell, pot, contains 'tar'. The consequences of tar in cigarettes have been documented.

So, no, it's not harmless. It all depends on how much harm the individual is willing to risk. I'm sure my practice of drinking straight vodka is bad for my liver.....

Yet to live without any harmfull substances is to live a rather - boring - life. Everything involves risk.

All things in moderation.

P.S: Almost any substance can be addictive for certain individuals. Even Sciforums. ;)

P.P.S:
"Withdrawal is the least of your worries if you've been smoking for 22 years. IMO, you are trying to justify the consumption of a drug that has taken hold of your life. You can't stop because you're addicted and can only resort to justification."

Q, Banshee has stated that she has stopped:

" I quit with it a while ago and am still alive, not having withdrawal symptoms at all and life without MJ is good."

Thus not addicted. Frankly, I find the whole 'addict' rhetoric rather annoying, but that's a different topic.

Withdrawal is the least of your worries if you've been smoking for 22 years. IMO, you are trying to justify the consumption of a drug that has taken hold of your life. You can't stop because you're addicted and can only resort to justification. That constant cough and wheezing should give you some indication a physical problem exists. The thought of smoking another joint within 30 minutes of finishing one should give you some indication of addiction.

I never smoked a joint within 30 minutes. And oh man, MJ was the least of my worries. I am not trying to justify anything, for the simple reason, I don't have to justify smoking MJ.

What "constant cough and wheezing" are you referring to?

I agree with Xev, even Sciforums and the rest of internet can become quite an addiction. Everything in life, you do too much, is not healthy (Q). :)

Never bothered to read this whole thread, did you?

Smoking 3 joints a day for 22 years means 24,090 joints, at 3 grams per joint that is 72,270 grams, or 72 kilos and a quarter of marihuana!

Hahaha, :) It figures. Did you use a calculator Edufer? Jesus, what a BS. 3 grams a joint? That's a lot! Ever heard of Shag Edufer, or loose tobacco with rolling papers? Those rolling papers are pretty small, then you use a little filter, made of carton, in it too, so in no way will there fit 3 grams in such a thingy. It's called a Reefer, not a joint. Doesn't make any difference though, the name. The size makes a big difference.

My goodness and I just used all my fingers and toes and came to the conclusion that it's been 26 years, I've used MJ. Oh my, re-calculate Edufer!

(For your information and a better calculation, I used 5 grams every 5 - 6 days. Have fun...:p )

Banshee, yes I used a calculator. I am not an <i>idiot savant</i> that can multiply five digits by four digits and come with a correct answer. I still can add long columns without the aid of a pocket calculator, as most people do this days. They have forgotten to add or substract. People nowadays are intellectually lazy, and this is reflected in the state of the world (among many other things). Doing mental calculations keeps your brain in good shape. The function makes the organ. As Descartes said: "I think, thus I exist". I think when you stop using your brain you cease to exist (as a human being) and become an animal or an object.

By the way, have you ever used a scale to weigh the pot you rolled? As a matter of fact I have not, but will do it as soon as I can get hold of some pot. (Not easy to get in the environment I usually prowl). Before quitting cigarrete smoking, (back in the early 70s) I used to roll tobacco in my trips into the jungle (as cigarrette packs didn't stand the humidity, rains, soaking conditions we always encountered), so I had an excellent technique. When we were kids, in Argentina was used a little and simple machine to roll your own. It was called "Banderita" (little flag) because it resembled that, and made rolling tobacco a piece of cake. But what always marveled and amazed me was the way our "gauchos" (the Argentine version of cowboys), roll their cigarretes with just one hand, and light them afterwards while they are riding in a horse driving cattle to the markets.
"Q, Banshee has stated that she has stopped:
My God! Are you a <b>SHE</b>, Banshee? Have I been arguing with a woman all these months?. I must have known that somebody showing to much emotion and feelings in discussions couldn't be nothing else than a woman. You beat us poor cavemen males in that field... Hulk, hulk! :D
by xev: <i>"That said, I did not find Edufer's study credible, given the author."</i>
Sorry, Xev, that was not a study, but just recommendations given by somebody who read and analized a lot of scientific studies made by reputable scientists. My own conclusions differ a little (but not too much) from the author's conclusions. I don't think pot will make you schizophrenic or make you commit suicide --<b>if you are not a schizophrenic already.</b> However, the conclusions by the scientists mentioned in the page, is that cannabis will worsen the condition of schizophrenics and might induce them to suicide. And that is an entirely different story.

By the way, I don´t know the author of the page, so I cannot give my opinion about him, but what he says about the concern parents should have related to their children's habits with drugs, are quite sound in my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong, but given the high incidence of suicides among pot smokers (10%) makes me think that the author is very close to the truth.

Edufer,
My guess is all the statistics are simply correlative. That is to say it could just as easily be that most people who become suicidal experiment with or use drugs. That would certainly make sense too. You don't value your life so what is there to lose. Maybe you can dull the pain.

Pot is certainly not completely healthy, but neither is McDonalds and many dessert foods. Eating food you don't need to which is unhealthy simply for the flavour can be argued in many ways to be just as bad as taking drugs. In fact foods have many chemicals that affect your psychological state.

I think evidence makes drinking just as bad or worse than smoking pot. How many people do you know that have headaches in the morning if they don't drink coffee? Or ritalin use in kids. Or other anti-depressants? Or store buyable speed for dropping weight?

Society accepts wide-scale consumption drugs and engages in unhealthy behaviors that are much more damaging on a wide scale than marijuana and all the preaching is pretty silly. Anyone who does things without thinking about the consequences gets what's coming, but in many ways I have no doubt that marijuana has improved my life. I may have passed a time when it was good, I may be able to use it more healthfully, and there may have been preferable alternatives, but one can never know.

Q,
Memory loss is in no way known to always be mediated by the death of brain cells. There are equally valid scientific explanations that require no damage. It is known that one remembers things better in environments and states of mind similar to those that were coincident with the memory formation.

Most people don't take tests high. I have. When I did enough of the studying high it was better to take the test high. By the same token, when I was high I often would wander off on tangents related to the material I was studying. I would often stop studying. Discipline regardless of your weaknesses is the important part.

Sometimes my blazed musings were beneficial during the test, and sometimes not. I feel that it helped me interconnect the various ideas I was learning about better than many others and have a better big picture view. Maybe I'm warped by excessive drug use and rationalization. But I can honestly say I don't think so and my environment has always responded in ways that I feel my view of myself and the world is pretty dead on. In school there are many criteria that would predict my scholastic success better than marijuana consumption.

EDIT: Though I have to admit the joint occurence of disinterest and marijuana consumption would be devastating to my success in a class.

Scilosopher: <i>"Eating food you don't need to which is unhealthy simply for the flavour can be argued in many ways to be just as bad as taking drugs. In fact foods have many chemicals that affect your psychological state."</i>

Of course, there are many chemicals in the environment that will affect your psychological state. However, I must point out that the fundamentals things are <b>"dose"</b> and <b>"toxin potency"</b>. I really don't believe that a hamburger from McDonalds or a vanilla cone is as harmfull to my health as smoking a marihuana joint or a cigarette, or drinking gin or absynth. Drinking wine or beer in moderate amounts have proved to have healthy effects on humans. Getting stoned with booze will deliver you to cirrhosis or polyneuritis. Eating hamburgers in moderate amounts (one or two a day) will help in keeping your alive, depending on the quality of the ingredients. Rotten meat is unhealthy, fresh meat is good in moderate amounts, though, because it has essential aminoacids not found in other foods.

But by all means, smoking marihuana or tobacco are not healthy at all, although it may serve to cheer you up or sooth your neerves. There is a price for everything you do. Nothing is free in this marvelous world. You must pay a price (as stated by the 1st Law of Thermodynamics) nothing is lost, nothing is created; everything is transformed. Chemicals in pot and tobacco are more deleterous to your health than chemicals in hamburgers or food, at levels commonly found in our daily lives. Those chemicals in pot are more potent than those in meat or vanilla ice cream, and will transform themselves in nasty things in your lungs or in your brain. No arguing on that.

If pot makes you happy, keep smoking.. perhaps you will be lucky as my father was (he smoked until he died at 73 from prostate cancer, a disease not related to prostate cancer). But as "Dirty" Harry used to say: "Do you feel lucky today?". I would add: "Will you still be lucky tomorrow?".

Edufer,
You're not being consistent. Just as there is likely to be a level of consumption of alcohol where there are essentially no harmful effects the same goes for smoking herb. Moderation is important.

I've never heard of beer being beneficial, only wine and it was because of the grapes and the same effect can be gotten from grape juice. Alcohol is MUCH more addictive than marijuana when consumed regularly and in my experience is a much more unhealthy drug. You can argue society's biases, but they are not rationally grounded.

While I lack the figures, I would be willing to bet that the number of people killed by cancer from smoking pot is less than the number of people killed by drunk drivers every year. In those cases it's not even the people who do the drinking that suffer. Yet herb is illegal and alcohol isn't.

My main point was simply that our society seems to accept behaviors which cover all the bad sides of recreational drug use. This is not to say that it is good or necessary to use them, but it should be a choice.

Regarding strictly the health effects, marijuana is only clearly unhealthy because of the smoke. If you only ate brownies it isn't clear it would be unhealthy. Most of the transformation occurs during burning, generating carbon based carcinogens (also present in smoked meat, which can cause stomach cancer). Name one thing transformed in the brain that clearly has bad effects. Thermodynamics are ridiculous to simply through it out there labeled as inarguable. It isn't even clearly intelligible what you mean by it.

I'm sorry to hear about your father (my father had it as well and was lucky enough to live). How exactly though is prostate cancer not like prostate cancer?

"Just as there is likely to be a level of consumption of alcohol where there are essentially no harmful effects the same goes for smoking herb. Moderation is important."
That's true. But which is the <b>moderation level</b> for cannabis? According to most studies, regular daily smoking, as done by average users of marihuana, seems to be above the moderation level. There are noticeable effects on your behavior, provoked by chemical reactions in the brain, chemicals supplied by THC and other cannabinoids.
I've never heard of beer being beneficial, only wine and it was because of the grapes and the same effect can be gotten from grape juice.
Not so. The flavonoides found in wine after fermentation are not found in grapes. And the flavonoids are (among other things under scrutiny) the ones blamed for beneficial effects.
Alcohol is MUCH more addictive than marijuana
It is also true. Alcohol (as found in hard liquor --ethylic alcohol) has a physiological addiction, while cannabis has a "psychological" addiction. Either way, both are addictive in their own terms and should be avoided. The alcoholic toxin has been rated for different hard liquors, and Vodka has been chosen as the base for toxicity comparisons: Vodka toxicity is rated "1", then comes whiskey with "8" (eight times as toxic than vodka), Gin has a rating of "40", and the last in the list is Absynth, rated "200". Thus, drinking a shot of whiskey is like drinking 8 shots of vodka, and so on.
While I lack the figures, I would be willing to bet that the number of people killed by cancer from smoking pot is less than the number of people killed by drunk drivers every year. In those cases it's not even the people who do the drinking that suffer. Yet herb is illegal and alcohol isn't.
That's true again. But you are forgetting that marihuana induces behaviors that can also lead to violent crime, mugging, rape, murder, etc, not mentioning driving "high" in the highway or around the neighborhood. I would like to see if somebody has any statistics about this. I am sure there is one, but I don't have it. But drugs of any kind will remain illegal because the legalizing of them would provoke serious financial imbalance to the world's economy. Plus, the State Department will never allow drug legalizing because drug trading is the biggest revenue they have for financing undercover CIA's operations. Otherwise, they had to ask Congress for the money they need to finance subversive and guerrilla movements, in order to destibilize a given country and sell them weapons. The money poor countries spend in armies, guns, tanks, planes, battleships, and ammo, is money diverted from productive uses as basic infrastructure, roads, harbors, communications, credit for industries and farmers, etc. It is also money diverted from social uses as education, health, wellfare... This is another story, though, but it is an interesting one.
My main point was simply that our society seems to accept behaviors which cover all the bad sides of recreational drug use.
The widely used term "recreational drugs" is an euphemism used by drug activists for diverting the attention from the dangers of drugs, trying to show them as inoffensive, harmless or just as a "recreational" thing like video games or golf playing. The same goes for alcohol, though, which I found highly reprehensible. Drugs have been a companion of men, since mankind became gregarious. And alcohol and other drugs have been doing great harm to society, although alcohol, when ingested in moderate amounts, has no other harmfull effects on behavior than making people happy or festive. I never drink whiskey or bourbon, not for moral reasons; just because it tastes awfull to me, as does champagne, tequila, pisco, gin, fernet, anisette, absynth, etc. However, I do enjoy a Bloody Mary once in a while, (love tomato juice with hot pepper), and Brazilian "caipirinha", made with "cachaza", firewater distilled from sugar cane. BTW, you will not believe this, but I have never, never in my whole life got drunk --not even dizzy, drinking beer, wine or other alcoholic beverages.
<b>quote:</b><i>"Regarding strictly the health effects, marijuana is only clearly unhealthy because of the smoke."</i> True again. It has <b>four times more tar than tobacco</b>, among other chemicals as THC that affects the brain.
Name one thing transformed in the brain that clearly has bad effects.
THC = tetra hydro cannabinol. There are more cannabinoids, of course, but you asked for one.

Thermodynamics are ridiculous to simply through it out there labeled as inarguable. It isn't even clearly intelligible what you mean by it.
My answer above should make it clear. Thermodynamics rule your life, as it rules the whole Universe, and if you can't grasp the idea involved, then it is hopless. How could you argue against thermodynamics...? And why would you want to do it?
I'm sorry to hear about your father (my father had it as well and was lucky enough to live). How exactly though is prostate cancer not like prostate cancer?
I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you made a <i>lapsus calami</i> in your post. (Or should I say a <i>lapsus keyboardae"</i>)

I also had a prostate cancer seven years ago, but it was diagnosed in its very early stage, so a good radiation treatment (fast neutrons accelerator) cured it. As my father had died from that, I started to make regular checkups every year when I was 45. At age 56 the cancer showed its ugly head, but we chopped it immediately. My yearly follow-up checkups show my levels of "prostate antigen" are in the 0.6 to 1.0, --the normal for my present age (64) is above 10.0, while the "warning" levels (for my age) are around 16.0.

Prostate cancer is the leading mortal cancer in men, far, far more than lung cancer. So, I advise my fellow gender buddies to have their regular prostate checkup, once every six months (if age under 50, because at that age prostate cancer is a "hare": they grow so fast that become a dangeorus thing. Around 55 or more, the cancer becomes a "tortoise", and gives you more time to analize which will be the course of action. At age 80, just forget it. You'll die from old age before the prostate cancer can get you.

But you are forgetting that marihuana induces behaviors that can also lead to violent crime, mugging, rape, murder, etc

Yeah, sure! :) Man, do your home-work a little better. On MJ people don't get that violent. Jees, are you a hard head. It's alcohol which makes people much more agressive and violent. From MJ a person relaxes. Exceptions confirm the rule, so don't give me another long, boring post please. :bugeye:

I don't drive while being high, I have no drivers license. Never cared for such a thing and never will care for it. It seems saver than driving under the influence of alcohol. In the Netherlands, that is. Don't know about the quality of MJ in the states.

Oh, why am I typing this anyway. You probably come up with another long, long, boring post. I quit with it. Have fun...

(Oh wait, now I forget. I drive a bicycle :p )

Edufer

But you are forgetting that marihuana induces behaviors that can also lead to violent crime, mugging, rape, murder, etc, not mentioning driving "high" in the highway or around the neighborhood.

Mothers milk leads to cannabinol. :D

Oh, why am I typing this anyway. You probably come up with another long, long, boring post. I quit with it. Have fun...
Sure, facts and science are boring to non scientific minds. Emotional and anecdotal posts are much more fun to read. Unfortunately, we have been discussing a scientific matter from two different points of view: from the factual, scientific perspective, and from the emotional, almost religious perspective. This kind of post exchange leads nowhere, so I agree with you, let us stop losing valuable time.

Hope not have bored you with this <b>loooong</b> post. :p :p

(By the way: our criminal records here show that about 80% of crimes are commited under the influence of drugs, although cocaine is the main drug used there, marihuana users come second. Morphine junkies commit their crimes when not under the influence of the drug (they couldn't do it during a "flash", anyway). They steal and kill when trying to obtain money to buy more drug, the most common reason used also by marihuana smokers.

I guess that if they didn't have the urge to smoke MJ, they wouldn't be killing people for the money to buy it --but then, perhaps they would kill people to get money for DVD players or vacations in the Caribean, I guess.

But records show that most suicides committed by youngsters were done under the influence of two drugs: <b>marihuana and "gum"</b>. (Gum are the fumes inhaled from contact adhesives (whose solvent is toluene), a widespread drug addiction down here among extremely poor children (contact adhesives are cheap, and $5 worth of "gum" can be used for weeks).

In the case of "gum", the deaths were not really "suicides", but deathly accidents as the kids, high on toluene, believe they can fly and jump from the windows of abandoned old buildings. It is a sad thing, but although the sale of contact adhesives is forbidden to minors, and many contact adhesives have stopped using toluene, they still get "gum" as easily as marihuana.

Should "gum" be also considered a "recreational" drug? Jumping from windows seems to be fun and recreational. What a way to go!

It figures. :( What a sad post Edufer.

Guess they add a lot of garbage to the MJ then in your country, for I never ever 've had the urge to kill somebody to buy MJ. Jees, overreacting is a job too, isn't it? :rolleyes: MJ is pretty cheap in the Netherlands, nobody steals money for the use of MJ.

Cocaine yes, there people are killing and stealing for, or while under the influence of it. And Morphine related drugs like Heroin. Not for/on MJ. That the suicides are done under influence of MJ, doesn't say a thing to me. Do you have records and statistisc also about the suicides, killings and stealing because of the use of Alcohol? And suicides and killings, commited under the influence of medicine? Anti-depressives and so on?

Sure, you can find a suicide in every cathegory if you want. It's just what you're looking for.

Then again, I am talking the Netherlands here, where the main problems are Alcohol, Cocaine and Heroin.

Should "gum" be also considered a "recreational" drug? Jumping from windows seems to be fun and recreational. What a way to go!

You tell me Edufer! I don't know "gum". We are talking Marijuana in this thread, not "gum". So getting sarcastic is not relevant. What is recreational and what is not, is a case of how you use the Marijuana. If you use too much, it's never good and never recreational.

BTW, it's used as medical treatment too, nowadays in several countries. What about some facts on that point. I can't help the situation in your country Edufer, I'm sorry...

People in the Netherlands are affluent, so they have money (even for buying cars!). Down here, people barely have money for buying food, and the cheapest they can find. The last statistic (and you can believe this) is that 58% of people in Argentina have fallen under the line of poverty. About 16 children are dying from hunger every day; they didn't tell about the adults.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, (or I was not clear enough), but I didn't say people would commit crimes or be violent <b>under the influence</b> of marihuana.

I agree absolutely with you that alcohol can induce violent behavior, or transform a gentle person in an aggresive monster. It happenes every minute. I have never defended alcohol or tobacco, because I found these things are noxious to health, and if taken beyond moderation, they are a threat to other (not so tobacco) and to society as a whole.

In the factory my family had since 1870 (until we had to sell it because the crisis, seven years ago) my brother was the head of the medical department and he run a rehabilitation program for alcoholic workers in the company. (30% of the were alcoholics!, from a payroll of 1200). Alcohol is one of the worst poisons for people, and it is useless to say it can take a person to abyss of moral