Religion is founded in superstition, doubt and satiation of loose ends that could otherwise plague any particular mind.

In my philosophical endeavors, I surmise that what really matters to me however, is my happiness... rooted in a pure joy of living. Being a kind fella, I wish you happiness as well. Mostly because it seems to make life more bearable for everyone. Of course if your happiness comes at my expense, there may be issues but that's not where I'm going with this.

Now, given that religion is the crock of shit I've pertinently labeled it... is it worth it that people derive satisfaction from it? If you have to believe in a whole pile of shit in order that you get through your day... so what?

If your church manipulates you, kills in the name of its fictitious ideal, or just LIES to you continually... intentionally steeping you in an externally smelly delusion... does it matter?

If you aren't prone to see religion for the pile it really is, don't you pretty much deserve to wallow in that pile, especially since to you it isn't?

Personally, it's the fact that people can't help but skew their view to encompass this manure that just annoys me on a fundamental basis, because I value reason and can maintain happiness without a pile someone else makes up for me. But if you can't, I grudgingly have to bid you well wishes nonetheless. It's only grudging because your pile is in direct contradiction to what I strongly feel (to the point that I feel that I know this, though of course any of us can be wrong) is what I repeatedly label it.

That your religious philosophy is at odds with my own should not mutually exclude our respective happiness. Even if we're both just mental constructs (specifically, rationalizations) heaped upon philosophies of lies.

My thoughts on the subject are that at some point in the course of human
evolution, we gained a very rapid increase in intelligence and found ourselves
in a situation where social dominance could be achieved by filling in all the
'why' questions that were plaguing our brains. It didn't matter if the answers
were true or not.

Over time those who could accept the answers without considering evidence
were rewarded with social acceptance and increased chances of
reproduction. Humans basically bred themselves to be natural believers.

Now we're at a point where we are discovering more and more truth about
the reality we live in. Many understand that we only have (at best) 500
million years before the planet is inhospitable to mammals and information
like this helps people understand that staying on the belief train could keep
us from understanding truth and thusly threaten our long term survival.

As our most fundamental 'purpose' is to survive and reproduce, I am hoping
that we'll weed the belief out of ourselves as time moves on.

Oh BTW, I don't 'believe' and I am pretty darn happy :)

Hi wes.

I am in complete and utter agreement with you. Just a thought:


wes:

That your religious philosophy is at odds with my own should not mutually exclude our respective happiness.

Unfortunately, the relationship is not symmetrical. We (you and I) would happily coexist with benign believers in whatever crock they choose. But they are not generally benign. I happily coexist with the digestive bacteria in my intestines, even though they think my shit is the shit (a philosophy I don't share). When a flu virus invades my cells however, their philosophy mutually excludes our respective happiness.

http://www.amsiriano.com/images/great_white_throne.jpg

"What sort of Man is this, whom even the winds and the seas obey?"

The day of thy reckoning is at hand. You WILL die the death:
Listen to the mourning song of thy relatives, thy spouse, or child:

Alas, my beloved, where art thou now? Only thy shell remains visible.
To what nether region hath thy ghost been ushered? Whither hast
thou fled and abandoned us?

Look what is writ on thy Tombstone:
"Here lay a proud disciple of Science who valiently refused
to worship the God of his ancestors. His beloved Science saved him
not from the final day, but while he lived he knew a few pleasures."

In the blink of an eye ye shall be swept up into thy Judgement.
Prepare thyselves to meet Him of the Holy of Holies,
The One who Exists, ALPHA and OMEGA
The Immense Glory of inutterable Majesty
He of the Ancientmost Uncreated Power,
Ye shall see thy entire life spread out before thee and ye shall
be intimate with newly found remorse:

HOW IS IT LORD GOD that I DID NOT HEED THY MESSENGERS???!!!!

This Judgement is much more to be dreaded by the unrepentant
than anything known in the universe.

Even the Devils believe...and they tremble!

Now the coldness of eternal death puts out
the last embers of the flame of love in my heart,
the joy of my youth and childhood.
Farewell holy God once beloved,
I could have loved thee but chose not,
I was made for you and thy eternal joys
I chose to betray thy Truth for short pleasures.
Please, consign me to the outer darkness for all time to
dwell in constant horror with the Devil and his Apostate Angels,
for thy mercy I rejected in life, and now in death thy justice I require!!

WILL THESE BE THY WORDS?
Do not think that you will escape the chamber of final truth-saying.
Repent of evil doctrines and learn sacred truths.
Render sorrow of thy sin to thy God and forgive one another.
this very day you can begin to change and come over to Him. Bend thy knee
now in joy, not later in tears...FOR Every knee in Heaven and Earth and beneath the Earth shall bend...

IT IS A THING OF AWE TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD

Lawdog,

justice

Ok. Let's talk about that. God created me and gave me free will and a good brain. I used it throughout my life to try to discern a glimmer of the truth of life. I found that natural explanations for the nature of life made much more sense to me than anything else. So when I die, what are the commonly accepted alternatives:

1) Oblivion

2) There is a god.

If 1) is true then no worries mate.

If 2 is true, then according to your (christian) justice I will suffer an eternity of pain, burning, darkness, evisceration by demons, etc... An ETERNITY, because I came to the slightly wrong conclusion? How about this.

When I die God takes me aside with his hand on my shoulder and says "Well, my child, you didn't quite get the message as I intended but you were a good guy, you helped a lot of people, so I won't cast you into the pit for ETERNITY for I am merciful and omniscient and saw it coming anyway."

?

Lawdog,

When I die God takes me aside with his hand on my shoulder and says "Well, my child, you didn't quite get the message as I intended but you were a good guy, you helped a lot of people, so I won't cast you into the pit for ETERNITY for I am merciful and omniscient and saw it coming anyway."

?
Yes, perhaps it is like that for those who know little or nothing of the Truth. However, if you are a man of good will and therefore open to life, God will provide graces for you so that eventually you will believe. Yet these graces can be rejected, especially by those who have hardened their hearts.

The soul of the rejector/wrong doer is in a comatose state in this life, unable by its own power to turn to God. Only by hearing the truth and repenting and believing (acts only God can give) does the soul awaken.

My job is not to cause you or anyone to repent, since miracle that is not within my power. My job is only to provide the material cause (ie the word, doctrines, encouragement, etc) by which God will bring about new life to the soul.

Lawdog:

The soul of the rejector/wrong doer is in a comatose state in this life, unable by its own power to turn to God. Only by hearing the truth and repenting and believing (acts only God can give) does the soul awaken.

So god takes comatose patients who can't hear him anyway and tosses them into the pit for not listening?

Super. Real nice. I don't want to play with such a stupid god then. I'm taking my toys and going to Bobby's house. He's nicer.

So god takes comatose patients who can't hear him anyway and tosses them into the pit for not listening?.Hey look man, i didnt like it much either when I first heard, it seems kinda unfair. But you see, thats just the way things worked out Adam and Eve F-K-D up. God had to do something, but since his word is law, he could not take it back. So he accepted the Blood of the Lamb for recompence. See, a single sin is so horrific and no amount of human effort could make up for it, for it is an offence against the inutterable majesty.

God did not design Hell for humans, but for the demons. Then suddenly Adam and Eve F up and the whole human race has to go there. Thats not fair. something had to be done.

So I've created yet another platform for a moron to shit upon. How typical.

Lawdog, you're a fucking moron. If you have nothign intelligent to say, please fuck off.

Superluminal,

In your options mentioned above regarding death, the commonly accepted choices should include "other", as in "how the fuck should i know?".

Oh, and what you said about the opposition. I don't think it's necessarily true, but it's more of a distribution thing. People like Lawdogs moronic ass are just assholes. Assholes tend to be stupid regardint philosophy, so the concepts related to living without something to try and shove down people's throats via one's superiority complex simply don't fit into the asshole matrix of conceptual wreckage in this fuckwad's head.

There are however, a lot of really kind, good christians who would never behave like this piece of shit - who can as we claim, co-exist peacefully with people who simply don't believe what they believe. I work with a couple of guys like that... who are in fact, a couple of the best examples of humans of which I can recall. Good men.

I suspect based on my comprehension that there is at least a possibility of some form of afterlife for a number of reasons.

I would not say that this suspiscion is based on anything remotely resembling a god concept, because god concepts are inherently flawed.

God had to do something, but since his word is law, he could not take it back.

Do you realize how utterly stupid that sounds?

[Picture god wringing his hands, "Oh, Oh! Now what will I do! I made a stupid law but I can't take it back! No take-backs for gods! How could I forget that? Oh well, I'll just make up this neat rule that says if you don't obey my stupid law, you get tossed into a pit of fire. That way I don't have to deal with my mistakes! Super idea!"]

I suppose wes, that I am thinking of the same fundamentalist dickwads that you are. However, if it came down to it, would your christian friends defend you dispassionately? Or do they, as christians, really believe you are unfortunate and need saving based on nothing more than their mythology? That kind of thing can easily be turned from a peace-time philosophical debate into genocide.

Now, given that religion is the crock of shit I've pertinently labeled it... is it worth it that people derive satisfaction from it? If you have to believe in a whole pile of shit in order that you get through your day... so what?

If your church manipulates you, kills in the name of its fictitious ideal, or just LIES to you continually... intentionally steeping you in an externally smelly delusion... does it matter?

If you aren't prone to see religion for the pile it really is, don't you pretty much deserve to wallow in that pile, especially since to you it isn't?

What about cars? They're dangerous, smelly, kill heaps of people, both directly and indirectly, created a terrible addiction for oil, and make us dependent upon backwards and bloodthirsty Arabs.
Are cars worth it?
It doesn't matter if religion and cars are worth it or not, really, because it's not out call. Too many people derive happiness from them to make a few dissenters' opinions matter.

So I've created yet another platform for a moron to shit upon. How typical.

Lawdog, you're a fucking moron. If you have nothign intelligent to say, please fuck off.
.
BOY O BOY...What scary words! oh NO, I better listen...

Do you realize how utterly stupid that sounds?

[Picture god wringing his hands, "Oh, Oh! Now what will I do! I made a stupid law but I can't take it back! No take-backs for gods! How could I forget that? Oh well, I'll just make up this neat rule that says if you don't obey my stupid law, you get tossed into a pit of fire. That way I don't have to deal with my mistakes! Super idea!"]

Actually thats drawn right out of St. Athanasius' tracts on Theology, albeit in my own common non theologic english...

By the way, isnt just pissing off wesmorris entertainment enough?

Actually thats drawn right out of St. Athanasius' tracts on Theology, albeit in my own common non theologic english...

Well, that makes St. Athanasius a dumbass, now dosen't it?

What about cars? They're dangerous, smelly, kill heaps of people, both directly and indirectly, created a terrible addiction for oil, and make us dependent upon backwards and bloodthirsty Arabs.
Are cars worth it?
It doesn't matter if religion and cars are worth it or not, really, because it's not out call. Too many people derive happiness from them to make a few dissenters' opinions matter.

True enough. I'm just shooting it through my own rationalization filters.

How can you call so great a theologian a dumbass? That doesnt sound right. Perhaps you should read his works first.

BOY O BOY...What scary words! oh NO, I better listen...

I said PLEASE fuckhead.

It's not as if there was a threat, merely observation... (quite accurate I might add, you spamming waste of board space).

Lawdog:

By the way, isnt just pissing off wesmorris entertainment enough?

Nah. I like wes.

i did hope for your sudden and miraculous conversion...

How can you call so great a theologian a dumbass? That doesnt sound right. Perhaps you should read his works first.

And perhaps you should fuck off right? Hehe. I don't see either happening.

How can you call so great a theologian a dumbass? That doesnt sound right. Perhaps you should read his works first

Well, given my leanings, I think ALL theologians are dumbasses. Makes sense, right?

Nah. I like wes.
Then why dont you tell him the Truth about his immortal soul?

Well, given my leanings, I think ALL theologians are dumbasses. Makes sense, right?
Have you never studied the sublime science?

Then why dont you tell him the Truth about his immortal soul?

Zzzzzzinggggg! Got me.

Wes, I'm sorry to inform you that you're going to hell. See ya there...

Zzzzzzinggggg! Got me.

Wes, I'm sorry to inform you that you're going to hell. See ya there...
Your callousness betrays an insincerity for thy friend

Have you never studied the sublime science?

Its time for good christians to pray and rest. There is no rest for the wicked...

f it came down to it, would your christian friends defend you dispassionately?

Depends. They wouldnt' defend my philosophy no... but I do believe they'd defend my right to have it... as I would defend theirs, even though I SO disagree with it.

Or do they, as christians, really believe you are unfortunate and need saving based on nothing more than their mythology?

I can't answer that for sure of course, but it's my impression from either of them.. that their religion is their business and they don't hold me to it. Neither has ever treated me with that "christian compassion" (which is SO fucking fake) bullshit, nor do I suspect that either ever would.. withstanding perhaps a really odd change of context that I cannot really imagine at the moment.

That kind of thing can easily be turned from a peace-time philosophical debate into genocide.

Such is true, and of course all I said above is simply my impression, but I respect those dudes immensely. They're both very intelligent, very good guys who'd give you the shirt off their back if you were hardcore sun-burnt. I just dig those dudes is all. As I said, I think they are as good as any people I've ever met or cared for. We may not have a lot in common socially, but regardless.. good fucking guys. I feel fortunate to work with people whom I feel so positive about. Our whole management team is pretty much that way.

Have you never studied the sublime science?

Do you know what 'sublimate' (same root - sublime) means in science? To go from one state directly to another, bypassing the common interim state. The most common one is "dry ice" (solid co₂) evaporating from a solid directly to a gas at room temperature and pressure.

This epitomizes your "sublime" sciences for me - evaporating to nothing from a supposed "solid" base.

evaporating yes, into Eternity....Good night.

Well wes that's cool. My therapist (for 6 years now) is a christian and a damn fine, intelligent person. Which leads into the subject of dichotomous thinking...

PS: Where can I get me some managers that are that cool? Mine are, well, managers if you know what I mean...

Its time for good christians to pray and rest. There is no rest for the wicked...

As if this asshat would have a clue what constitutes a "good christian". :rolleyes:

You still haven't fucked off. Maybe someday I'll learn to be more threatening. I doubt it.

Tolerating dipshits like yourself is a skill that even a "good christian" has to struggle to ascertain.

Well wes that's cool. My therapist (for 6 years now) is a christian and a damn fine, intelligent person. Which leads into the subject of dichotomous thinking...

I'm the best therapist I know. Not bragging, just that I don't know any therapists and I have a real knack for understanding that kind of thing. I once talked a girl out of a full-fledged clinical panic attack. I wish I could convey to you what a feat of will and patience that really is.

PS: Where can I get me some managers that are that cool? Mine are, well, managers if you know what I mean...

Well, small companies are the place to start. If we were hiring, I'd ask for your resume.

One of the problems with "cool managers" though can be that their company isn't necessarily as profitable as well "regular managers". Our company has been mostly broke since before I started 5.5 years ago.

My thoughts on the subject are that at some point in the course of human
evolution, we gained a very rapid increase in intelligence and found ourselves
in a situation where social dominance could be achieved by filling in all the
'why' questions that were plaguing our brains. It didn't matter if the answers
were true or not.

Over time those who could accept the answers without considering evidence
were rewarded with social acceptance and increased chances of
reproduction. Humans basically bred themselves to be natural believers.

Now we're at a point where we are discovering more and more truth about
the reality we live in. Many understand that we only have (at best) 500
million years before the planet is inhospitable to mammals and information
like this helps people understand that staying on the belief train could keep
us from understanding truth and thusly threaten our long term survival.

As our most fundamental 'purpose' is to survive and reproduce, I am hoping
that we'll weed the belief out of ourselves as time moves on.

I think we've discussed this together before and I agree exactly with what you say here.

Ha! I've always said that I'd be the nicest, coolest manager. At least for the 6 months or so that the company lasted... :D

I think we've discussed this together before and I agree exactly with what you say here.

It's possible, I have the memory of a watermelon. Wait... who are you again?

Why is it necessarily lies? Your logic says that, if Sun is merely a star, it is not god. The sun may keep being a star, but life on earth still depends on it; therefore, why not worship it as a god? Whoever really wants to worship, will find things to worship; whoever does not want to worship, will never find anything to worship. Yes, religion is primitive and yes, it does prevent us from discovering further facts and spoils much fun. Yet, worship of the sun did communicate to our predecessors that life on earth depends very much on the sun and therefore was not a complete lie.
I do agree with you. What annoys me is this eagerness to complain about how all authority lies to us and how we're surrounded by lies, etc.

it's lies because it's promoted as fact.

Ha! I've always said that I'd be the nicest, coolest manager. At least for the 6 months or so that the company lasted... :D

what's messed up is I'm like 5 different managers. yikes!

Religion is fact for whoever wants to see it as such. Look, we've already seen that nothing can persuade a believer that there is no god and nothing can persuade a non-believer that there is a god. Today, we're all free to choose, promotion or no promotion. All of the information is within reach.

Oh yeah, since I'll be freelancing for the rest of my life, I'll be my own manager. THAT is Awesome.

But there is a correct answer to the question, one which people can't accept. Nobody knows.

whitewolf:

Oh yeah, since I'll be freelancing for the rest of my life, I'll be my own manager. THAT is Awesome.

Shit! I've been trying to work up the guts to do that for a long time. I'm a pathetic coward. :(

Lawdog,

Can God do anything?
Does God know everything?

Thanks
MII

How can you call so great a theologian a dumbass? That doesnt sound right. Perhaps you should read his works first.
How do you know he was a great theologian? How do YOU know he even existed, and is not just the figment of someone's imagination? How do YOU know that the books you are reading are accurate, and not just fiction? You can't really; all you can really go on is what numerous powerful people (corrupt or not, who knows?) agree to as accepted and acceptable. How do YOU know that 1000 years from now, your words on this forum won't have been compiled as the "Newest Testament" of the Bible? Just questions I have.

In my philosophical endeavors, I surmise that what really matters to me however, is my happiness... rooted in a pure joy of living. Being a kind fella, I wish you happiness as well. Mostly because it seems to make life more bearable for everyone. Of course if your happiness comes at my expense, there may be issues but that's not where I'm going with this.
.

So are you saying that the purpose of life is happiness? which if you are, of course is fine.

So can we then break that down and say that the correct use of life is in the pursuit of happiness?

So are you a happy kinda fella then? I would guess your answer is yes. Are you happy all the time though, have you cracked it? the secret of happiness? the secret of life? Or are there times when you are not happy, when you are stressed, sad, angry, dissappointed?. Again I would guess the answer would be yes.

Where I am heading here is, if you are not 100% happy and you believe the purpose of life is happiness and the pursuit thereof. What is your plan to get happier? Or do you believe that you are as happy as you are going to get?

I am just trying to get into your mindset here.


Also, is the imortant thing your happiness or happiness for everyone in the world? I know you said that that your happiness should not come at the expense of others but that is slightly different.

A point for reflection would be - If you live in a western country your happiness and comfort in life (I assume material things do bring you some happiness) comes as a direct consequence of third world suffering and destruction of the planet, so how does that fit in your plan?

So are you saying that the purpose of life is happiness? which if you are, of course is fine.

For me, yeah I suppose. Not exactly, but close enough.

So can we then break that down and say that the correct use of life is in the pursuit of happiness?

That's not the correct use, it's inherent. You seek what pleases you, even if it's misery..

So are you a happy kinda fella then? I would guess your answer is yes.

You'd be correct.

Are you happy all the time though, have you cracked it? the secret of happiness? the secret of life?

What's secret about it? I'm happy most of the time, and wouldn't think it at all acceptable to be happy all the time. I suppose this gets semantically squishy though, as from one angle I AM happy all the time.. but it's not the explicit "happy" that you might be thinking of. On some level, I simply accept the human condition for what it appears to me to be, and that is satisfying. It could be construed as happiness, and underlies the basis for my general explicit "happyness" to which I think you refer. Well, that and I genuinely appreciate the phenomenon of being alive and experiencing what I do. Bah, anyway.

Or are there times when you are not happy, when you are stressed, sad, angry, dissappointed?. Again I would guess the answer would be yes.

Sure.

Where I am heading here is, if you are not 100% happy and you believe the purpose of life is happiness and the pursuit thereof. What is your plan to get happier? Or do you believe that you are as happy as you are going to get?

If you were to for instance, go bowling... would you expect to get a strike on every throw?... or would you just enjoy that you are trying and appreciate the fun of the activity?

I am just trying to get into your mindset here.

Okay...

I'm not really shooting for "more happy" so much as that I'm just enjoying the happy I have when I have it.

Also, is the imortant thing your happiness or happiness for everyone in the world?

They're about as important as each other, but ultimately all personal functions are purely selfish, even if expressed in terms of others.

I know you said that that your happiness should not come at the expense of others but that is slightly different.

A point for reflection would be - If you live in a western country your happiness and comfort in life (I assume material things do bring you some happiness) comes as a direct consequence of third world suffering and destruction of the planet, so how does that fit in your plan?

First of all, I simply don't buy that argument. It doesn't come as a consequence of their suffering. Their suffering is a consequence of their circumstance, which is much more complicated than "the US fucked the world", an argument which is completely full of shit IMO. Secondly, accepting for the purposes of your point that you're correct: I do not take responsibility for circumstances beyond my control. That some pre-existing mechanism in between you and I has brought you the perception that you are screwed over because I have a computer, is no fault of mine. :p

Have you considered that it isn't a rich person's fault for being born rich, or being accustomed to whatever life-style they were raised in? IMO, the issue is, if their circumstance were changed such that they were no longer "rich", could they still be "happy"?

I guess what I'm trying to say there is that .. right now, your circumstance is what it is... you can't change what it is right now. You change what already is.

Can you accept what is?

To me, circumstance is a given.. surely it changes over time.. that's the game. That's just time for you. So to me, circumstance ultimately boils down to the unavoidable details of life... leaving how you feel about that as what is really important.

It's my contention that if you cannot accept what is, you're floundering and will be emotionally jacked when circumstances continually elude your expectation.

Obviously however, there is potential for a great debate in the act of discerning "what is", which will be partially addressed at least in a thread I'm working on creating called "The ethics of knowing", coming to a forum near you! :)