Hi all,

The following is an article I wrote sometime ago and I am very interested in any constructive opinion and thought.

A number of persons suffering Schizophrenia (classical) have read it and attached to the bottom is one response.

Mental Illness
A new approach

Introduction

When considering the nature of mental illness it is important that we define what it is we are considering.

Mental illness is a mental condition that prevents the sufferer from participating in life in the way he or she would wish. It is a condition that places the sufferer in a state of dysfunction.

It is a condition that society wants to protect itself from for it deems the mental state of the sufferer to be precarious, unreal and relatively unpredictable.

Within the following example of mental aberration I will use the condition notoriously referred to as Schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia demonstrates the greatest variety and complexities of the aberrant mental state and I intend to suggest a way that will allow us to treat and cure this condition.



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Schizophrenia is about ability, not ordinary ability but extraordinary ability.

At some time in the patient’s life his brain has acquired an ability or abilities that the patient has little to no control over. The ability(s) are acquired intuitively and usually discounted as inconsequential by the patient himself and as delusion or hallucination by the medical profession when he or she is finally admitted to hospital or some form of professional therapy and care.

The abilities I refer to are of a sensory nature: intuitive sensory abilities of an extraordinary nature. The patient immediately becomes embattled with what he senses as ordinary sensory behaviour and that which he himself would consider extraordinary sensory ability.

Society is telling him that his ability is delusional and yet he knows that it isn’t. His imagination tries to accommodate society and his own experiences, putting himself in a state of self delusion because he is inclined to deny his ability as real because society is saying that this is the case.

So we have at least two abilities happening. The first is his ability to know what is extraordinary (Aberrant) sensing this and the actual intuitive ability that he has acquired which is also sensed.

A classic example would be paranoid schizophrenia where by the patient feels a strong sense of conspiracy, that the CIA or the police are watching him or his parents are threatening to kill him etc.

A normal person is quite capable of sensing conspiracy in fact we are all part of a conspiracy. We are all part of everyone else’s plans. The wife or girlfriend is planning a special dinner. The government is planning to introduce the GST. The guy down the pub is planning to punch him in the nose etc.

So the patient has developed an ability to sense conspiracy to a depth that would be considered extraordinary. His sense of reality is threatened and he becomes deluded trying to deal with his sensory ability and that which society would consider normal.

For instance he senses his girlfriend’s plans for dinner and feels threatened because of his fear of his ability to sense this. He behaves badly trying to cope with all the mixed signals that his brain is trying to interpret. He behaves badly and arrives in the hospital in an extreme state of anxiety.

The premise I am using here is that fear is always real. Not always understood for what it is but very real and valid. The ability to understand and learn from it is the ability that needs to be learned and it is only by achieving understanding and learning that the patient has any chance of recovery.

To deny the ability is to provoke delusion. To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion.

Funnily enough it is society’s state of delusion as to the nature of Schizophrenia that is actually perpetrating and enforcing a delusion upon the sufferer. Society having the delusion that extraordinary ability doesn’t exist. Which is of course not true as some of our most gifted people exhibit extraordinary ability all of which could be considered intuitive.

I am suggesting that the patient’s sensory abilities have somehow achieved a greater depth than would be considered normal and like a person studying martial arts the patient must learn sensory discipline and nurture his ability to the level that he is comfortable with.

I believe that our current approach to Schizophrenia is in fact quite deluded and as you would now understand the patient is also aware of this causing even more grief.

Medication rejection, hospitalisation rejection etc are all symptoms of our “insane” approach to schizophrenia: the patient being caught between two worlds and not knowing what to believe.

Sensory ability is essentially reflexive in that until controlled by other governing reflexes the ability continues to exist at all times in a way that is ungoverned and it is only when the ability is governed by learned reflexes that the ability is controlled and the patient’s anxiety and comfort levels return to “normal”

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Conclusion

What I propose is that the patient be treated as a person who has abilities yet to be governed and not denied.

That the treating staff attempt to identify what abilities are in play and structure a learning and therapy program that helps the patient in the achievement of comfort by allowing him to achieve the skills and disciplines needed.

Many programs can be developed that are able to help the patient with the above in mind.

Open mindedness to what the patient is describing as delusion and treating the description in the light of uncontrolled intuitive ability will achieve significant results.


A Response by M C, California USA

WOW. I like this. Particularly from a sufferer’s point of view..

I can’t tell you how much comfort it gave me to hear from you that I wasn’t just stupid and/or crazy to be thinking the thoughts that I was thinking.
In our overactive minds, we create connections and find significance in insignificant, unconnected events. And this was (sometimes is) my reality. And I found it utterly frustrating to hear from people that I should just not believe what I already believed. It was liberating, and yet scary, to think that I might be right.

You’re right in recognizing the person’s ability to perceive as being real, because it is real, and then your next question to me was “Why?”. This caused me to look deeper into what I was experiencing. It gave me comfort and strengthened my belief in and view of God and helped me to give purpose and meaning to what I was experiencing.

The similarity to this approach is striking to a form of therapy that exists for Borderline Personality Disorder. Are you familiar with that? It’s also called emotional intensity disorder and it affects about 1-2 million Americans. It causes the person to experience each situation to a fully charged emotional level, and they frequently are very frightened people who act in harsh, angry ways. It’s hard to treat but the recommended treatment today is called Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DBT). It consists of accepting the patient the way they are and also accepting the need to change (thus the term Dialectical, accepting two seemingly opposite themes).

Your idea seems revolutionary to the field of schizophrenia and also interestingly similar to this field’s approach. The thing that I like about your approach is the respect that it gives to the individual. You hit the nail on the head when you said society’s reality does not accept the other person’s. By recognizing the person’s reality as real, you’re recognizing the person as significant.

It was an extremely exciting proposition when you said that my perception was founded. I felt like for the first time someone was saying I wasn’t stupid, or self-absorbed, or just crazy. Because according to my perceptions, the delusions I was experiencing were real.

I think you should also recognize society’s reality as being real. You didn’t say it wasn’t, but I think to be fair you should say that both realities are real in a sense. I mean perception is relative anyway.

Regarding the final conclusion:

“Open mindedness to what the patient is describing as delusion and treating the description in the light of uncontrolled intuitive ability will achieve significant results.”

I think you should go on to explain more as to why this recognition will help the patient. I have tried to give you my perception as to why it helped me, but I’m sure you have some ideas of your own that I’d love to hear.

Matt.

QQ, I don't think a person actually suffering* from Schizophrenia has " extraordinary abilities " , they only think that they do .


Women seem to have a more developed ability at interpreting body language than men , would this mean that these women are suffering from psychosis ?




* Actually suffering , not some concocted Bull Shit .

Women seem to have a more developed ability at interpreting body language than men , would this mean that these women are suffering from psychosis ?

hmmm....dare I say obviously not and ask where is it I suggested such a thing?

Hi, my job as a support worker, supporting people with schizophrenia brought me to the conclusion that sadly, they do not possess psychic abilities. When they become unwell, they believe all sorts of things are happening, which really may not be the case at all.
But, also I don't think they need to be treated any differently to someone with no mental health issues. Although we can sympathise with their condition, it is important to maintain a sense of reality for them.
To treat them as though they have super powers only confuses them, and sets them apart from 'ordinary' people.
Giving them reality boundaries is important to them as they feel 'normal'.
To listen to them and try to understand is the most important gift we can give to them. :)

" ...dare I say obviously not and ask where is it I suggested such a thing?"

Perhaps I didn't articulate that well QQ . Some people utilize certain skills more than others . Some people excell in areas that can be completely unknown to others .

Your statement : " Schizophrenia is about ability, not ordinary ability but extraordinary ability."
This is incorrect because it doesn't include - loss of reality . By extending your original definition , people with "extraordinary abilities " , abilities that are not present in most everyone else , could be construed as suffering from a mental illness when in fact they are not .

I am sorry...abnak and kirstykiwi, i have not written the article clearly.

When I refer to ability I am talking about sensory ability and not so much extraordinary sensory ability but the ability to descern cognitively what we all take for granted.

The main ability they have developed is to capture aspects of what they sense more so than that of a "normal" person and that they have great difficulty coping with what they have captured from their sensing.

Hi QQ,

Are you saying that their condition makes them hyper sensitive, which means they have the ability to sense things more intensely than others around them??

If that's the case then I would say that psychiatrists need to consider these things and treat apropriately.

I am personally interested in the spiritual side of their thinking. All of my guys are very 'churchy', and I think this stems from the fact that God and Satan talk to them often (illness).

Anyway, off the subject - sorry :)

Quantum,

So what about all of my clients who have schizophrenia and hear voices that tell them to kill themselves or other people? Should I tell them that yes they are correct, they are hearing mystic voices that are actually there, and yes, go ahead through with it, because what you hear isn't a delusion, but the voice of God him/herself? That may not fly over so well with my supervisors...

Have you personally worked with anyone who has schizophrenia?

Obviously you have not read the article properly in that I am not talking about the content of their so called delusions or the beliefs that the content leads them to believe. What I am talking about is their ability. In this case their ability to hear voices and not so much the content of what the voices say.

It is the ability that is driving them insane.

My appraoch to this issue is to explore how this ability to hear voices can be used constructively.

Learn how to control the ability therefore removing the fear and allow the imagination to rest a little.

I lost a brother to schizophrenia, whom I looked after for 2 years prior to his death (suicide) about 6 years ago and have been researching and interviewing since then.

Qantum,

I'm so sorry you lost a brother to mental illness.
Every case is different, just as every person is different and I don't know the details of your brother, but would have been a difficult time for you and your family.
I tell my guys to tell the voices to shut up and go away, but of course that doesn't work for them. To embrace the voices isn't a good thing either, because often the voices are negative, and overwhelming.
I guess in the end thats why they take medication, and are in 24 hour supported care.
Whatever works for the person is the road to take.

tell my guys to tell the voices to shut up and go away, but of course that doesn't work for them. To embrace the voices isn't a good thing either, because often the voices are negative, and overwhelming.

This is why I am suggesting that included in the therapy of medication that we attempt to train their ability to hear voices so that they can achieve some control of it.

By not denying the reality of the ability we are able to offer another therapy that may allow the patient to eventually get on with their lives.

By denying the reality of their ability only keeps the patient in a state of intence fear and anxiety. And as soon as some one takes their ability seriously (not the content) they are able to relax because they understand why they are suffering. It is their intense fear and anxiety that generates the content.

A good example of this could be the film called the 6th sense with Bruce willis.

The boy in the film eventually overcomes his enourmous fear of insanity by acceptiong that what he was experiencing was an out of control ability. And once he realised this he was able to gain control and this in turn allowed for a degree of sanity to enter his life.

And thanks for your sympathies Kristy...yes it was very difficult.

Hyper-vigilance because of fear is not the same as schizophrenia. Over-reacting or being incorrect about what or whom to be afraid of , can be very normal . If QQ went with his original descrption and even diagnosed individuals , then his sciforums name would be very appropriate .

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" am personally interested in the spiritual side of their thinking. All of my guys are very 'churchy', and I think this stems from the fact that God and Satan talk to them often (illness)."

Religious leaders and many , many others spout that they have heard God speak to them . Does the medical community consider their statements to be only metaphorical .

Good idea QQ. Although I would term their voices as a disability, rather than ability.
Continue with your research - it can only help.

Billions think they are communicating to a supernatural being by prayer . This is real to them , but not to atheists . Why are some beliefs acceptable to the medical community , while others not ? Is the criteria enclosed within the DSM applied so arbitrarily by proponents , that a whimsical notion can be regarded as fact ?

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" The DSM is the fabrication on which psychiatry seeks acceptance from the medical community . Insiders know it to be more of a political document than a scientific one "

Abnak,
Haven't they found some part in the brain that gives people a 'religious' experience?
Re the DSM - it's only a guide for head shrinks to diagnose. I think we can all find something in there that we have.
The scientific community do not know enough about the spiritual aspect of the 'unwell' person to decide which is the ill part and which isn't.
But, it's all very fascinating anyhow. :)

If I remember correctly the DSM is all about functionality over time.

Are a persons beliefs self destructive or seriosly counterproductive to the well being of society.

Having a belief that a rock is god is not grounds for diagnosis however if you pick up that rock and hit yourself on the head repeatedly causing serous self harm then the doctors make a decision on your behalf and provide treatment.

If a person can not provide for themselves in the extreme then institutionalisation is necessary.

If they can't answer a question of have severe loss of function then society is obligated by law to step in and provide support.

QQ, you're probably right.
A Diagnosis isn't the whole person, and it helps the consumer to know what they have, but to help the mental health consumer to devlope coping mechanisms.
I'm no psychatrist (sp) ? - only a support worker who wishes to make clients lives a little happier and brighter.
Although a lot of people recover, there are still people in the mental health system, who will be there until they die.
I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick.

Good luck with your research

" I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."

Please then , state the obvious .

Hindus from Asia , Buhddists from Nepal or Coptic Christians from Egypt etc.. adhere to all matter of ridiculous nonsense . Some Hindus run around the streets with hooks puncturing their backs attached to strings that their friends carry as a testament that their God is great and they are somehow special . Some Islamics hit themselves until their blood spills from their heads . There are Christians that re-enact Christs crucifixion by having themselves nailed to a cross . Evil spirits and devil absurdity dominate the Abrahamic ones . Should scientific determinations be variable , influenced by cultural considerations and subject to individual caprice ?

You , seek to empower yourself and declare that you have the ability differentiate between what is acceptable and what is not , for others . This is typical of many people who enter into the mental health fields and is the delusion of most bureaucrats . In studying this and related subjects , coupled with a little experience and hearing about true horror stories , leads me to believe that much of psychiatry is about control ,and not helping others .

I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick.

Kristy,
If the religious beliefs are strong enough for the person to commit a crime or harm themselves as judged by the society they live in then they would also come under the DSM

Religious interpretation of what they sense in an extraordinary fashion is common. And what I would suggest is that this ability to sense and not the religiousness of what they sense needs to be trained and therapy applied to.

I repeat, that it is not the content of what the ability achieves so much but the ability itself that needs to be explored.

..." If the religious beliefs are strong enough for the person to commit a crime or harm themselves as judged by the society they live in then they would also come under the DSM"

Therefore , the DSM is not a scientific document . Fore it can be arbitrarily and secretly applied to others by persons who claim to represent "society " .

Don't act or think like everyone else ? ... then you must be defective . No crime is needed to have occured , only that somebody, somewhere imagines one might happen . This is pure Soviet style .

" I repeat, that it is not the content of what the ability achieves so much but the ability itself "

Also repeating myself ...a heighten awareness or a heavy reliance on an intuitive thought process is not Schizophrenia .

Abnak,


It's obvious you have little or no experience in working or dealing with people who have mental health issues.

I find your tone quite rude, and you seem to have something against people working in the field.

How would you deal with someone who was becoming ill, symptomatic, and distressed?

Rude? Because I ask questions or make statements that you feel uncomfortable with or are unable to answer scientifically ?

" I think it's rather obvious what the difference (is) between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."

Please then , state the obvious . I gave examples from major religions that we could probably agree are completely stupid . Yet , are acceptable in their society . QQ's introduces his belief that the criteria and subsequent definitions contained within the DSM are valid , but variable according to where they are applied and by whom does the applying . This seems incorrect .

" ...you seem to have something against people working in the field."

No , I believe most are careing professionals . It's the lying , drug pushing , pseudo-scientific , pharmaceutical industry lackeys that evoke contempt .

" How would you deal with someone who was becoming ill, symptomatic, and distressed?"

Could you be more specific ? " Becoming ill " with what ?

It was only recently that autism was considered a condition caused by an "un-nurturing mother" and schizophrenia was a "narcissistic disorder" by major mental health professionals . Nonsense should be challanged .

Abnak, people who have a mental health condition usually function quite well on medication. When they don't take their meds, they can become 'unwell' and end up in hospital because they are distressed, delusional etc.

I wish that consumers didn't have to take medication, but it is a sacrifice between being 'well' and 'unwell'. And yes, these pharmacutical companies are making big bucks from it, but realistically, what would YOU do about it, and what would you tell a mental health consumer when they are about to go into a mental health hospital for a few days.?

Yes, I liked your examples of ridiculous and somewhat violent religious rituals, but at the end of the day, one has to look at each individual case and give the appropriate treatment from there.

My job as a support worker does not include diagnosing, or treating - only a psychiatrist/ doctor does that, so I don't get too hung up on peoples diagnosies. But I do know when my guys are becoming ditressed or the voices are too much etc. So from that level, we would refer them to their doctor.

The medical community does the best they can for their clients - because their aim is to a functional life for consumers of mental health services.

Yes, I agree the DSM is flawed - wasn't homosexuality in there years ago? But as I said in a previous post - it is only a guide for head shrinks to make a diagnosis. And, I will add, misdiagnose all the time.

I am agreeing with you abnak. I never said that a heightened awareness of thought is schizophrenia and I may add that if I believe my own article I would dispute the existance of schizophrenia in the first place.

However we still have hospitals and other facilities full of very sick people. I don't care what the illnesses are called only that we seem to have very little to offer as a way of help.

I am suggesting a way that we can help.

And that once we treat the patient seriously and not keep thinking of the delusions we may get some where.

I am not suggesting that we ignore the delusions etc. or the fact that they are in deep shit. I am suggesting that their imaginations are struggling to cope with their extraordinary sensitivities and it is this sensitivity (sensory) that can be trained and adapted too.

QQ,
I now understand what you're getting at.

The Phobic Trust in NZ advocate the use of 'training' the mind and using 'mindfulness' in coping with phobia's etc.
When I was going through severe OCD, the head of the Phobic Trust told me to learn meditation, and how to work on my intuition etc.
I was also told that this could be dangerous for psychotic disorders, which is probably a reason why mental health services don't advocate alternative methods.

I think possible another reason apart from the inherent danger is that it would take effort and time thus money.

But when a guy or girl is sitting in a psych ward talking to no one and appears in great distress I think if some one tried to explain or find out what sensory ability was involved and attempted to work with the patient a better outcome could be possible.

Ability could be considered in abstract terms with no limitation for instance our ability to use common sense or our ability to believe what we hear or our ability to overly speculate etc etc.

Slowly over time an abstraction called an ability profile could be developed in a way that would sanely try to deal with the insanity of their condition.

You see every thing a person does and I mean everything could be considered as an ability, from going to the toilet to holding a discussion with a subpersona called God.

WE only have to look for a sane rational for their distress even if it means applying a little imagination ourselves.

Scenario

A guy is talking to a voice.

What sensory ability is he employing?

The ability to hear a voice ( who's voice is not important)

His ability to feel fear and sense fear

His ability to know that he is thought of as being delusionsal

His ability to think under great stress etc.

If one looks for the abilities involved there is a chance that he/she can be offered therapy where as at the moment we just let them suffer until the medications set in.

Theire ability to feel genuine sympathy is also confused etc.

Their ability to reject what we would normally take for granted.

Actually I have found rejection to be one of the most powerful abilities that we have.

As the responses to my thread starter have shown rejection is a strong ability in every one and more so in a person suffering. Rejecting the help that is offered.


We all have a tendancy to reject stuff with out full consideration and a psychotic person can reject the notion that he is paranoid or delusional because he knows he is realy experiencing what he is experiencing and for persons to call it a delusion or hallucinaation only invalidates his experiences causing not only confusion to the patient but a lot of anger as well.

I think it would be better to firstly validate his experiences in the right context and then work with the patient as to why his experiences are so distressing to him. IN the context of ABILITY we have an avenue to being able to help.

This concept as you say is not new but an extension of something currently being used. Maybe the medical profession should look a little deeper instead of resigning themselves to an INABILITY to offer real therapy.

INABILITY is only an inverse ABILITY

The ability to find a "centre" in a storm of emotional thinking is an ability that would be an excellent starter.

Abnak,

I understand why you are trying to push the boundary outwards a little and yes you are trying to get people to think out side the box a little more. I repect that. ( I am also attempting to do this with my article)

However due to the limitations of this forum or should I say the fact that it is short worded answers it makes it very difficult to see the depth that people are discussing at.

Kristy for instance is talking from a perpective of working with very distressed and sad people all the time. She has great compassion and I think this is not to be disputed or for that matter treated with disdain or disrepect.

I have a background that is also full of experiences with very traumatised persons and talk at a different depth to Kristy and your self.

What has happened so far in this thread is an example of insanity that we have inflicted on our selves. WE have lost a little perpective.

Your desire to confront issues of prejudice or close-mindedness is really very good but you obviously have to accept that people will respond sometimes in defense. I refer to this as denial or rejection. And I may add is a major issue for the mentally "ILL" as well.

To be able to discuss in this medium (Forum) properly we have to try and find what depth the person is discussing at.

I may be a professor of forensic science with 40 years trying to find solutions for youth suicide for instance, or I may be a young kid who is struggling to understand the concept of "Clinically ill"

I may be a person who only spends 5 minutes a week devoted to irritating people by playing silly mind games. You know what I mean.

The perspective of the other person is very important and our ability to see this is a great sign of emotional and intellectual maturity. (and sanity I might add)

The internet forums provide a significant challenge to any one wanting to find sanity in discussions.

The loss of perpective being way to easy.

Kristy, thanks . Your posts are appreciated .
Your job involves many skills that I do not have and dealing with peoples problems that I have never encountered . I am however , aware of fraud and unethical conduct by members of the medical community .
As to your question : " what would you tell a mental health consumer when they are about to go into a mental health hospital for a few days.?"

Knowledge of medications and a honest support structure would be two big ones . Friends and family can be crucial during this time . Bring a PDR . Ask questions .

" And, I will add, ( psychiatrists ) misdiagnose all the time."

Since there are presently no bodily tests that determine or distinguish the nature of a mental "illness" , all a psychiatrist has is his opinion . What recourse does someone have when they are inaccurately and permamently labled / libelled ?

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QQ, I have disagreements with much of your posts . You jump to the conclusion that people talking to themselves are hearing voices and employing some unknown " sensory ability " . This may not be the case at all . Alot of people talk to themselves - often , stressed or not .

If in fact they actually have heard voices that no one else present has heard , a good place to start would be eliminateing electronic devices as a possible . You and others have described that many of these individuals have the opinion that they are being harrassed by law enforcement . Well , if you want I could pull up companies that supply the military and law enforcement communities with just such instruments , like directional transducers etc.... Denying the existence of this technology would mean either ignorance or dissimulation .

Could it be that some are indeed telling the truth , only to be entraped in a politicized medical establishment ?

Here in Australia we have methodology for an appeals process.

The possibility of some one being committed to an institution unfairly for any duration is extremely small. However the patient may think this to to be the case and has access to an appeals process. Unfortunately their condition is so precarious that they are unable to take full advantage in most cases of an appeals process.

An advocate can be sought and gained and this is fairly common here. However an advocate can not make a plea for sanity when the patient is obviously in distress.

Patients are very keen to pursue justice when they feel that their rights are threatened. It is the experience of the medical staff that they are acting as part of their state of mind and normally they plead with the patient to allow time to pass and a better perspective achieved. (When the patient can fill in the paper work and wait for a response they are proving that they are nearly ready for release)

?
If the patient is unable to excersise restraint the staff will do this for them.

I might add the situataion in these hospitals is far from perfect. The whole area of psychiatric care is full of major problems because we have no real way of dealing with insanity. The staff are in constant fear of their safety and organise themselves accordingly.

The pressure on nursing and doctors is incredible and they survive doing what they try to do as best as they can.

A very good female friend for instance has a habit when ill, of walking around with a big knife ( and I mean a BIG knife)( conspiracy theory). Her mom is constantly fearful. The nurses who treat her frequently are also.

The first reaction is to isolate her from others her plea'e for justice are violent. After a while she tends to settle down and apologises to everyone. Two months later she is repeating the cycle.

Abnak, if they are hearing voices that no one else can hear and if it's not sensory what else do you think it may be?

Edit : posted a response to your question , but realized later that it was a misunderstanding on my part . If some one was actually " hearing voices " and external sources ruled out 100% , then I would say , they are occuring internally . I do think some people suffer from mental "illness" , I am not saying that it doesn't exist , only that the industry can be motivated by entirely by profit to the extent that the very people it claims to help actually is detrimental to their health .

ahhh it is truely amazing how two people who actually agree can think that they aren't:)

Can I ask you Abnak to do me a favour and find in my article where I assume the sensory ability is unknown.

I am in fact suggesting that they are employing known sensory abilities that are deeper in strength from the normal. In fact it's the whole object of the article.

It just goes to show you how easy it is to confuse people hey:D

" find in my article where I assume the sensory ability is unknown."



QQ, not in the original article , but as a response to Xenu . " What I am talking about is their ability. In this case their ability to hear voices ... " This would be your postulated unknown ability ( my words ) . I don't have it . You , I assume do not have it . In fact I don't think this ability exists in the context of there actually being something real . I did state other ways that people can have auditory sensations , when others do not , through electronics and that some people may have been subjected to this kind of harrassment .

When some one takes a powerfull hallucinogen , stimulating serotonin processes , the user experiences sensations that can include acousmas . Maybe this is similar to persons truely suffering from schizophrenia . Persons consuming large amounts of stimulants can have sensations that bugs are crawling on their skin or perceive a smell when a source really does not exist . These are not abilities , only temporary delusions - toxic psychosis .

I do agree with some of what you say , yet think you are very incorrect when you try to call it an ability .

thank you for your repsonse Abnak I appreciate it

Quantum,

First let me say what I like about your approach. I like that you are trying to create a new, more positive, outlook into mental illness. Focusing on the positive aspects, and the feeling that what you have can be very useful. Sometimes there are good benefits from the illness. For instance, when clients of ours with bipolar disorder have a bout of mania, we teach them how to use that creatively and to their benefit.

However some abilities people don't want. All most all of my clients who do have hallucinations don't like them and have no desire to harness it. Most of them want to just hold down jobs and have rewarding relationships. We teach them how to do what we call Reality Checks and are thankful to people who help them align their perception to what's really there.

But let me say that I've talked to a few people do enjoy their hallucinations, and that's ok. They can be a source of entertainment, but usaually they are distracting and overwhelming.

I want to ask though, what use can you get out of an ability to see/hear things that aren't there and feel that they are real? I would imagine that most people with mental illness don't want to develop their "abilities", and rather, develop the "ability" of feeling well.

I see your point Xenu and I think it is valid.

The greatest ability that in the end we would be trying to achieve is the ability of feeling genuinely happy with the world and one self.

The ability to feel good etc.

I have found that nearly all the abilities exhibited by the patient are fundamental in nature in that when the ability has achieved it's exagerated state it ruins the balance in the infrastructure that helps maintain wellness.

For instance the ability to see visually a hallucination.

Most people are able to visualise and imagine things quite well. Some people see them visualy (with the minds eye) and some people see them non visualy (with the minds eye) the only differece being the intensity of the brightness of what they are seeing. IN a patients case as shown in the film "A beautiful mind" the visualisation or imagination can be extremely visual so much so that it can be seen with the naked eye.

And as you can understand this can be very deluding and confusing, seeing your mind working in such a profound way.

The same appraoch can be applied to auditory "Hallucinations"

IN that really all we have to ask, maybe is, why is the patients thinking so loud? So loud that it manifests as real sound and is entirely distracting and overwhelming in it it's nature.
The humand mind also innately knows when it's integrity is breached. The fear and distress is usually a symptom of loss of integrity.

And of cause if you fear something it tends to never leave you alone. So a patient is at war with his own ability. And well the war becomes self justifying and there is rarely a chance of recovery in full.

Most of the abilities are ones that we have learned as children and the patient has to re-learn them again before he can achieve a certain peace.

So I think that to consider what ability is involved and apply some sort of training (even if subtley) there is a possible future peace for the patient.

When I see a street guy ( in his sixties say) walking around fossicing in bins and picking up cigarette butts for example I try to imagine what abilities he has developed over the years and how we can help him unlearn some and learn new ones etc.

There are many cases that would be incredibly stubborn to this approach, I can think of many. However there are also many cases I can thnk of that would be rather condusive to this approach and maybe this is the place to start.

" To deny the ability is to provoke delusion. To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion."

But their ability is to have delusions . So you seek to cultivate their delusions in order to help the person not have delusions .

Huh ?

My capability ( ability ) to comprehend some material can be limited . And I can at times be completely incorrect . This topic however is a real head scratcher .

:)

Abnak, it's not surprising that you and others are struggling to understand me, anything that provokes change creates conflict and discomfort.

In response to your question about delusion.

I think it wise to look at what a delusion is.

(brainstorming excersise)

Delusion - fraud - misconception - lie - misunderstood truth - subjective reality - an experience not shared with others - etc.

Delusion - denial - mistaken rejection - blindness -etc

Abstraction - If you could experience what the patient experiences would it be considered as a delusion?

A friend goes in to another room and watches a movie that you can't see. He experiences something that you can't consciously share with him.

He comes out and talks about the movie that he saw and you think he must be deluded because you didn't see what he saw.

A guy is standing there talking to a washing machine, we see no communication. We don't share his reality so we call his behaviour as deluded.

The thing is we know we can't share his experience and he cant' share it with us. So is it delusion or is it his subjective reality that we can't understand.

Are we too quick to consider his delusion purely the work of his imagination as if his imagination is self creating and not determined by his environment and hit nature.

What does the imagination feed off?

Abnak and others please excuse the above rambling as an example of my little delusion or should I say the way my mind (I) tend to try and work things out.

We all have the ability to be deluded this is a big part of our mental need, the escape of fiction, the escape from reality even if it can be destructive etc . The patient is only experiencing it in a way that is way over the top, extreme but certainly if we look at him as trying to cope with his exageration then we can possibly get some where.

If we just write of his delusion as an imaginary construction with no sensory causality then we can't help at all.

" We all have the ability to be deluded this is a big part of our mental need.... "

Everyone may have the capacity for delusion ( erroneous belief ridgedly held - contrary to overwhelming evidence ) , I even think most people are delusional . Imaginations run wild , fed by their societies constraints as what is and not acceptable and often presented by authoritative fiqures as being correct . The mental need for these people maybe because they require to belong to group where logically addressing facts and their basic insignificance is circumvented with rhetoric . Their escape from reality seems to be an ability that they were taught .

The extreme cases of delusion are what we should be addressing Scott , and not intermixed with "normal" human frailities and confusions , as included in your list . " misconception(s) - misunderstood truth - subjective reality - experience(s) not shared (by) others - etc. "

Erroneous imaginary construction may indeed be borne from environmental factors and incorrectly processing stimulus . But every one is different , and not all fit into the present contrived paradigm where their incorrectness is given a medical term .

yes I agree,

We so often fall for the stereotyping trap. Lets find a constant and give it a name or title. When we do we most often forget why we did it in the first place.

Usually we give a title to the group of factors as a convenience and then we forget that we did it only for our convenience and need to organise things and in itself is only a construct.

We forget this and then think that our little label is a fact.... when it isn't. So a state of delusion is created by forgetting the nature of the "Label"

As I am sure you would agree:

The greatest insanity of all is when a people and persons consider themselves to be sane.

Sanity is not an absolute term, and nor is insanity. One can only say that one is only saner than someone else and not just sane.

The same could be said for delusion,

An incorrect assumption held by myself or any one is a state of delusion but necessary to the cause of learning. Over time if I keep at it, my delusions will weaken, as I learn more, or I may accept a falacy as truth and become even more deluded.

If one looks at the world community as a whole and stands back, one can see that humanity is generally quite deluded in so many things, but compared to say 100 years ago it is clear to me that delusion is becoming less and less all the time.

The removal of delusion is always a painful process because the person tends to love his/her little delusion and to let it go is sometimes impossible to consider.

For example science may very well be deluded about the nature of light, in that they consider it to travel at the speed of "c'

This belief is now an assumption of truth and may very well be the greatest obstacle science has in it's scientific pursuits.

The same goes for attitudes towards mental illness causality.

Originally posted by kirstykiwi
QQ, you're probably right..
I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick.


You've made several statements along the way that were interesting, and controversial in my mind. Assuming of course, that my mind counts - I could be sick, you know. In which case my opinions shouldn't count, as they could be based on a delusional view of the world.

I am not in total agreement with the original poster, please understand. But what disturbs me about the Western approach to mental health are our fairly narrow definitions of what is "mental health" and "mental aberration". I think that is where he was heading with his commentary.

At the extremes, that judgement seems pretty easy. If you have a patient who has zero contact with reality, who is extremely violent and completely incapable of caring for himself, it's pretty clear that he or she is "sick". Certainly he or she is a problem for all of us, without question.

What gets a little murkier is our attitude toward and treatment of a person whose delusions are simply extreme responses to actual situations; who in fact may have savant-like brilliant and valuable insights one moment and whacko ideas about his neighbor's lawn furniture the next. What do we do with those people? That is not clear.

I do find a certain amount of scientist-priest Western arrogance in your statement "I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick." I'm not sure it is obvious at all. From a Western point of view, many of the religious practices of Hindus and Buddhists would be considered "delusional", and the practices of meditation and fasting in the minds of many Westerners are nothing more that "cult-like".

It's this huge gray area in the middle that I find disturbing about how we define and deal with "mental illness" in the West.

It is true that a grey area exists but such an existance of a grey are should not shift the focus from the areas that are more obvious.

I suppose I see the state of sanity and insanity as a sliding infinite scale with no real clear distinctions along the way.
The culture and society the person lives in is an obvious determiner as to how sane a person is.

The thing is if a guy goes "wacko" over his neighbours garden furniture and the neighbour is understanding then there aint a problem. However if the neighbour isn't so understanding the guys behaviour may have to change and if he can't the law will be used to restrain him or treat him.

Either way his society determines his future treatment. If he is able to refrain from his wacko behaviour with out treatment then he is considered sane and only having suffered a temporary slip of mind so to speak. (which of cause we all do at times) It is only when the behaviour is entrenched and unacceptable does his assesment become necessary.

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
It is true that a grey area exists but such an existance of a grey are should not shift the focus from the areas that are more obvious.

etc



What's that got to do with this statement?

"I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."

You have done a lot of rambling around but really didn't address this issue. I think it is an important one; because here in the West there is an intolerance of ANY world view not based on rationalism. In this way, Western psychology is very limited; and it is often used as a weapon of elitism, a way of enforcing class distinction.

Watcher, I agree with you as I said the definition of sanity is a very wide one. I don't agree with the statement at all:
"I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."

And....

I thought that I had addressed this, maybe less directly as you would wish, but address it I feel I have.

The DSM that the psychiatry services here ( Australia ) use seems to adequately cover this issue. Our Mental health act also allows for the rule that dissallows detention or protection orders based on beliefs alone. Only is a person protected ( as a rule ) because of his potential and actions that infringe on the rights of others.
( and percieved threat of extreme self harm )

The question of "potential" is where it gets really vague. Being something that a Doctor has to make a value judgement on. The appeals processes allow for mistaken diagnosis by being judged by the doctors' peers.

The Doctors I must say do not enjoy this vexatious position that they are in hence the development of the DSM. ( rules of restraint and treatment)

The destinction between subjective insanity and objective insanity could be mentioned.

In that objective insanity is when it impacts directly on the rights of others, and subjective insanity being the patients effect on himself. ( such as religious beliefs and other subjective distortions)

" ..impacts directly on the rights of others. "
If you adhere to DSM fabrications and your methodology included nurturing their delusions , then it could be argued that you are the one who should be restrained .

I know of a young women who was taught that she had an evil spirit in her body as part of some religious nonsense that she was exposed to . This religious over-refinement caused her intense distress and she was admitted to a hospital . While there , the head psychiatrist proceeded to reinforce this devil nonsense in her mind by telling her , her family and others that - yes this girl is possesed . The young womens condition deteriorated rapidly .

Now here you are advocating a similar procedure . Pure, non -consentual and provocational . These people are not play subjects for your entertainment . If you tried to make one of my family , your guinea pig .....I would be knocking on your door !

Abnak, where do I suggest nurturing their delusions?

I only advocate the training of ability.

In the example you quote I would be asking"What ability is the girl employing unknowingly"?

What sensory distortions are involved?

Your exact quote was " To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion."

What sensory distortions are involved?
There were no sensory distortions in this case , just normal fear and misplaced trust in an authority figure who fed her further lies and powerful medications . She reached out for help and was further manipulated .

Many in your profession are not men of science , they are rapists and egomaniacs who hide behind a concocted list of unapproved behaviours . Their claim is medical , when in reality they are simply an extention of Government control .

With all due respect ( I do mean this)

Abnak, for some people including my self your response is bordering on conspiracy theory.

I ask you the question?

What abilities are you using to arrive at your opinion or position?

What perspectives are involved?

What memories have you that create a sense of confrontation?

or

What abilities are missing?

etc etc etc

" What abilities are you using to arrive at your opinion or position?"

In the incident I related , it entailed talking to several people involved , then trying to determine what had occured . When I first heard this , I was extremely sceptical as to its accuracy . But repeated references and confirmations by others , leads me to believe that this indeed had taken place . The woman , an acquaintance of approximately ten years, told me that soon after her daughter was admitted , the head doctor approached her asking if she was a Christian , then proceeded to detail his ridiculous contrivance described . This woman is a Pentecostal and readily accepted the doctors story , much to the dismay of several of the staff . It is my belief that evil spirits and a devilish horned guy in a red suit are imaginary constructs , there is no evidence what so ever of their existence . I arrived at a conclusion ( a position or opinion reached after consideration ) that the doctor was deliberately misleading these people .

" The culture and society the person lives in is an obvious determiner as to how sane a person is."

Being "mentally healthy" is determined by whether or not an individual conforms to a groups usances ? Some societies practice clitoral and penis mutilation ...would non-conformists to this be considered by you to be suffering from a mental disorder ?

That line of thinking resembles a 15th century mentality ,where an inquisitional style elite cloak themselves in medical folderol - motivated by profit and desires of further developing a fallacious ascendancy . It is not one based entirely on sound medical reasoning, but one where invention , ingenuity and mendacity are utilized in hopes of decieving .

Benjamin Rush ( APA mascot ) labled political adversaries as suffering from a mental disorder . Psychiatry, does deal with real medical issues , but was and often is still used as a vehicle to control others that resist dictatorial subjugation into an imaginary homogeneous framework .

Abnak, I agree with you again. You have again pointed out that the question of sanity is fluid and subject to perspective.

The doctor you are talking about regards the girl mentioned is in fact less sane than the girl I would think. In a position of high authority behaving so badly.

But as with most things we need to keep things in perspective I guess, in this case it is worth noting the incident is only oneof many. But also one of millions of admissions and treatments occuring every day.

An example of extreme malpractice for sure, but I would put forward the view that it is only and extreme minority view point that is discussed.

So from this perspective your approach is in my opinion and with all due respect some what biased to this minority.

Thisin no way invalidates your point of view I might add.

Abnak,

Actually that was me that said "difference between someone who is religious and obviously sick etc", so don't attack Quantam Quack please.

I guess in a way we can't dismiss consumers thoughts and feelings whilst "unwell" because that is taking their rights and beliefs away from a very personal experience that we cannot understand from their perspective.

However, most of the mentally ill people I know are devout Christians, and I only know of 2 atheists. I think this is because it gives them comfort from the so called 'devil' and they feel safe if they've been 'born again'.
A friend of mine believes God and Satan talk to him, and he is a very devout Christian, which makes me wonder if it is his 'illness' or if it is indeed God or whoever.

Indeed that psychiatrist of your friend's needs rapping over the knuckles for saying what he did, as does the various pastors etc who rope in people to convert.

I am currently studying to become a consumer advocate and I have had many discussions with my tutor about and she says to me
"What right do you have to tell a person it's not real? Its real to them, and humans have capabilities to deal with things in their own way"
So I suppose one has to take each case and work with that.
but for all that I am a frim believer in giving people reality checks, because I am not about to agree that a person is possessed and have them commit hari kari on me. I guess it depends on a lot of issues.

Kirsty, welcome back.

I just wanted to focus a little on the issue of what is real.
As you have said it is not for us to say that a patients experiences are not real but I would add that it is also important that whilst validating the partients experiences we need to also validate ours to him/her.

Our reality and theirs is in a state or conflict . Ours is considered more real than theirs and this is the error. It is not really a question of whose reality is more real but that they are different.

Our reality is more shared with others than theirs. This does not invalidate their reality but states the difference.

The following is a post in another thread about the illusion called reality ( mental monoism)


""While interviewing a psychiatric patient in an institution cafeteria I was looking at another patient. As I watched I saw his fork leave it's plate and fly across the room at high velocity free of any visible effort by the patient concerned.
The patient looked up at the nursing staff and said " did you see that, did you see that,? It's happened again!!!"
The nursing staff assumed he had picked up the fork and thrown it across the room and chastised him for telling them that it did it on it's own. They thought he was joking, insane or both.
So arguments about solidness ( of reality) to me are in some ways amusing because as I witnessed it can at times be quite fluid.
The patient appears to have a certain ability that he can't control and is absolutely terrified of and rather mystified of as well."""

As you can see his reality is very precarious just by this event(s) alone. His fear and sense of delusion or self doubt is strong creating enormous problems for him. But because he is normally unable to share his experience we consider him to be unsane (UNSANE) However I did witnesse it and was the first peron he knew of that had shared this with him. No one else saw it so am I also insane...? sharing his insanity or are we just sharing in a rather rare event.

" ...we need to keep things in perspective I guess, in this case it is worth noting the incident is only one of many. But also one of millions of admissions and treatments occuring every day."

You are correct that this involved only one small girl and that millions of others did not experience similar horrors . What is applied to millions , is an industry generated concoction listing unacceptable behavours .
Many are normal for all living , breathing , fallible human beings at some time in their lives . But if you have , or some one says you have more than they think is appropriate - you will be encouraged to take medications that the same industry produces for a profit . And quess what , all of this collection of dubitable alphabet soup disorders are unverifable . Pure chicanery .

If such machinations were used in a legal system , it would be called a kangaroo court .

I accept your point of view. However I do not share your cynicism.

Possibly we are talking about different levels of illness.

The persons that I am referring to, usually only come to the attention of the doctors after severe disturbances. And hospitalisation is unavoidable as there being no other alternative.

I accept that it is possible that the industry of mental health is self justifying but from my own experience with it I find that it's treatment of patients is quite legal.

Please describe how you would nurture patients delusional abilities . Would this be done covertly ?

Can you rephrase the question please?

Nurturing their delusional abilities is the whole basis for your thread . How would you do this ? Would it be done secretly ?

I am sorry Abnak but I fail to see where I state that I would nurture their "delusional abilities" and have never suggested that it would be done in secret.

For a patient that can not accept what is presented to him I would ask what abilities are being employed that create the lack of accepting what is said as being said in good faith. I woud ask what abilities he would be utilising that creates a state of suspicion.

Our ability to be suspicious is a very strong ability and I would attempt to train that ability to be suspicious so that it is more grounded in reality and within the control of the patient.

"So the patient has developed an ability... "(delusional)
"To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion." - Quack

Healthy scepticism is not to be confused with baseless suspicion . Especially when experience has reinforced the postion that care should be taken when trusting others .

If I have given the impression or said anywhere that I wish t nurture the patients delusions then I am sorry for that is not what I wanted to state.
I aim to nurture the abilities not the delusions.

Nurture - breed - nourish

So you desire to breed their delusional abilities

-------------------

As soon as I have the full name of the doctor that manipulated that young woman and the hospital where he is employed , I will post it .

emphatically no

Only their abilities that may lead to delusion

The premise is that it is their uncontrolled abilities that lead to a state of delusion.

By learning how to control those abilities the patient will become free of delusion.

Can I make it any clearer than that?

" As soon as I have the full name of the doctor that manipulated that young woman and the hospital where he is employed , I will post it ."


I have the name of this rapist and Quack , QQ . I have his card and the hospital he works at . I also have the name of a person that is knowledgeable about this medical perversion but has continued to remain silent .



http://www.upenn.edu/president/rodin/

Dr. Judith Rodin reportedly has been and may still be involved with covertly manipulating individuals in their own homes . Information obtained , details her involvement with members of the University of Pennsylvania Psychology Dept. and colluding with law enforcement . This endeavor by her and others can accurately be described as a Criminal enterprise .

This is serious stuff QQ . If it happened to you or your child you would want answers . Is the truth ...and a childs precious life ...to be cast aside because of the political aspirations of Rodin and others like her ?

I have not read the entire post, but I would like to comment.

I, at one time, was considered Bi-polar (manic/depressive). I understand what is being said. Part of the problem is the stigma that goes along with mental illness. But also part of the problem is therapist read about what the patient is going through but really don't have a clue, experientially. I was a bit different. When I was not getting the "help" I thought I needed from the professionals, I was able to consciously think my way through it. I realize you may say someone that is delusional would not be able to do this, but my opinion differs. What I discovered through my own self-analysis, was a spiritual side of life. Through concentrating on an interest (ie. spirituality), I was able to bring myself to a more "normal" level. Once I was in a more "normal" state I was able to take better control of my life. For instance, my condition is very seasonal affective, so I moved south (not far enough but better).


But I have digressed....YES, people who have mental illnesses should be treated with the same respect and understanding as a "NORMAL". Because in reality they think they are normal and everyone else is "CRAZY".

Every one experiences emotional fluctuations , Awake . Some people deal with stress on a daily basis that would knock most on the floor . What is normal for one person , may not be for another .

The mental health industry is designed to self perpetuate , to the detriment of the very people it professes to help . Couple this with drug pushing and scientific fabrication , the result is often a life long , manufactured industry dependant .

---------------------------

I agree and am profoundly grateful that I broke out of it. They had me drugged and going to "counselling" from once a week to several times a week. I would go in and say what I had to say and that would be that. They was no support, no instruction, no help.

Do you believe that it is the conscious intent of some, most or all the mental health professions to deliver services that perpetuate the illness rather than try to elliviate it, for self gain?

What I feel is that many in the mental health professions are very caring people who want to truely help. The problem I see is that they are in a "system" that perpetuates the illnesses for gain. For that matter, it is like the for most of the health professions.

I tend to agree with you and this is why I am attempting to suggest an alternative approach to the issue.
What I see is a group of caring people who have no real idea of how to treat mental illness in a way that offers solutions for the client.

I feel that it is possible to cure mental health problems and not just "tranquelise" it.

Agreed! Another case in point...My son has had some problems in the past. "They", including his mother (who at the time was going to school to be a therapist), said that he had a myriad of different disorders. ADHD, ODD, and OCD, I think were the alphabet soup. I told them he needed discipline and structure. I was ignored. He went to several cousellors, psychiatrists, and psychologist. They put him on medication and repeated visits. He had some side-effects (severe nightmares bordering on delusions (half-awake, half-asleep)). It has been a few years now. I have had custody of him for most of this last year. He is no longer and meds. He doesn't need counselling. He is a well adjusted 10 year old which I am complimented on because of his good manners and behavior.

I am not saying everyone who is on medication needs to stop or even quit going to counselling. But I do think our society, especially are children are severly over medicated. I think that has alot to do with the current lifestyle of American society. We need to take more time and better care of our children.

Years ago they discovered the theraputic benefits of Lithium for the control of mood swings. The scientist have since gone down the medication path as a solution and ceased to look for a better way in the mean time.

The question that needs to be asked is are we medicating for our benefit or that of the patient. Some times we fail to see that is just our convenience that we treat the patient the way we do.


Why has the medical profession ceased to look for alternatives to medication.

Abnak will argue and quite rightly that money and convenience is a prime concern.

My approach is one of learning and discipline and I would allow medication only to help stabilise a traumatised mind and no more. I certainly wouldn't be treating on the basis of my convenience and benefit.

I am glad that for you a solution to your childs plight has occured and yes it seems to prove your point quite adequately.

It is possible that a child's lack of a sense of security in his home and love may drive his poor behaviour and of course there is no medication in the world that can give him or any one security or discipline or love.
Maybe your ex-wife has something to learn from all this?

In her last semester of college she dropped out. For her this was bad, but for those who would have been in her care, I think it is a good thing.

And yes, my son is thriving due to love, security and loving discipline.

"By learning how to control those abilities the patient will become free of delusion."

Again , how actually would you nurture their delusional abilities ?

Another concern would be that you incorporate normal human frailties with your definition for some one that is delusional . " misconception(s) , misunderstood truth , subjective reality , an experience not shared with others , denial , mistaken rejection etc." This list to me ,seems absurd , for you try to include things that all of us have experienced .

Such is the methodology of todays mental health industry . This is not just an imaginary construct , it is a deliberate attempt to distort and falsify - for profit .

In a word - Racketeering

my pc blew up yesterday so I'll have to write to this forum later when it's fixed.( using a friends pc at present)

I have just read this entire thread. I think I understand where Quantum is coming from. I too, have a schizophrenic family member who has been hospitalized and jailed several times. I too have done quite a bit of reading about it.

I don't think there is a conspiracy or that the mental health industry is self-perpetuating. I think that the system is full of individuals who bring their own experiences and biases with them (a girl being possessed, i.e.), and work with what tools and training they are given. Drug companies don't help matters. But it isn't purposeful - it is just a system with pathological problems that need fixed. People who think they are helping are, in fact, causing irreparable damage. They don't mean to - it is what happens when we don't understand what we're doing.

Kirsty says she tells people to stop their voices or delusions. I was taught this was not a good thing to do - never confront a defense mechanism head-on, or you are asking for trouble. I was taught that a delusion or hallucination is a result of negative feelings. i.e., if a person feels unworthy, they have delusions of grandeur, such as being God; if a person feels they have no control over their life, they have paranoias that they are being controlled. The way to fix the problem is to not focus on the delusions or hallucinations, but the feelings. Help the person feel worthy, and they forget about being God. Help the person feel in control of their life, and they forget about massive conspiracies setting them up for murder.
I can say I have tried this with my family member, and it is very effective. For 10 years, our family focused on the delusions, and all along, helping was so simple if we had only known how.

I want to say, that other than that, I appreciate Kirsty's experience with schizophrenia, greatly, and her understanding of people in the depths of mental crisis.

To address Quantum's suggestion about acknowledging someone's ability - I like that idea. The reason I like it is because who is to say what it is that is causing a person to hallucinate? Or who is to say that they are hallucinating, just because we don't perceive what they do? Perhaps there IS someone sending electronic signals to their brain! After Viet Nam, I believe the military is capable of anything. Who am I to say? All I can say is what I was taught when addressing someone else's "delusion" or "hallucination," - "I am not able to hear the voices you hear." To take it a step further with Quantum's idea, "I believe you are able to hear the voices say [whatever it is they are saying]."

To address Abnak's question, this is NOT saying, "I believe that what the voices are saying is true," and it is NOT saying, "I believe the voices are really there." You are simply acknowledging that the person hears them, and nothing else.

In all the reading I've done, I have not concluded that even mental health professionals know what is going on for sure. They are still investigating why some medications work the way they do. In the process, they are finding a lot out about how the brain works. Who is to say that someday they won't find that schizophrenics have abilities, and possibly even gifts the rest of us don't, that turn out to be beneficial to society if they are used properly instead of creating havoc? We simply don't know.

Thanks for the input Voylady . You state : " I think I understand where Quantum is coming from. " then state : " I don't think ... the mental health industry is self-perpetuating.:
Yet it was QQ that wrote , " I accept that it is possible that the industry of mental health is self justifying "

Would you also agree with QQ's list for delusional attributes ? ...such as - " misconception(s) , misunderstood truth , subjective reality , an experience not shared (by) others , denial , mistaken rejection etc."

Almost every church service I have attended , some guy was saying , God had talked to them or God answered their prayers , etc...Do you think this is all said as some metaphorical statement ? From my experience , these type of things do not occur, nor have any supernatural events ever occured . These behaviors and statements are encouraged by authority figures . In other words , people are taught to personalize and expound on " programing " they have received . Being rewarded with a sense of belonging to a group might compel alot of people , except the stubborn individualists , to be led along like sheep .
Are these sheep mentally ill or are they just adapting to and continuing an encouraged acquiescent attitude ?

Wish QQ would tell us all how he would - Breed delusional abilities , in order to stop delusions .

In response to Abnak, understanding where Quantum is coming from is in relation to affirming the ability of schizophrenics to perceive things we don't. It is not in relation to agreeing with his views on the mental health system. Abnak is overgeneralizing my comments, and perhaps misunderstood them. I will be more specific.

Consequently, 3 people, not just Quantum, posted negative opinions toward the mental health system that border on conspiracy theory - including Abnak. My opinion is that it is something else than what those people state that causes negative things to occur in the mental health system. The negative outcomes are not so intelligently designed, at least not on a large scale. People are often not smart enough to be capable of the things we accuse them of.

Psychologists and psychiatrists label the experience of a schizophrenic to create a treatment - because schizophrenia is a problem when it comes to functioning in society in a positive way. Their labeling is flawed, and from what I've read, is mostly based on trial and error of what has worked for the century since Freud started the whole analyzation process. Do you have a better alternative? Shall we send the people in crisis to your house? As much as I hate the way the system works, I'll try to work with it.

Furthermore, I am not "listing" delusional attributes to affirm. Just because I don't experience what another does, doesn't mean it does not exist. There are plenty of schizophrenics who are not Christian; whose delusions have little to do with the church. And who am I to say what is Truth for them? It is clear that they need to exist at least on some level equal with the rest of society to function in it, irregardless of their perceptions. Affirming that they experience something I don't - no matter what it is - and I don't have to know what it is - might help them to feel a little less "crazy," and a little more like trying to function on a similar plane.

I know plenty of atheists, and I will say to Abnak what I have said to them: I will respect your atheism if you respect my Christianity. Don't assume something does not exist just because YOU don't believe in it. It exists for the person who does.

Thanks for your reply Lady , for the most part it is reasonable , however I disagree with alot of it . Your assumption that I am an Atheist is incorrect .

The doctor who encouraged this young girl to believe that her body had evil spirits knew excactly what he was doing ...producing fear to facilitate control , his control . I call it rape . Just use your imagination what's going to happen to him , when I pay him a "visit" .

Abnak, I did not assume you were an atheist. I said to you what I say to atheists I have had discussions with - that doesn't mean I think you are one.

You have misinterpreted several things that I have written, and jumped to some conclusions which are false. Therefore, I am not sure I believe the conclusions about this doctor and law enforcement that you speak of. Calling something "rape" that is something else, indicates you are also extremely angry.

I have no idea what is going to happen to the doctor, and don't know you well enough to even use my imagination about it. Acting out of anger and assumptions isn't wise though - PARTICULARLY with people who abuse their power. You might end up getting into a lot of trouble yourself. It might be better to do a little more research, and get some others to help evaluate the situation and approach, and give yourself time to calm. You might have a very valid reason to be angry. I don't question that. If you want to have an effect that won't hurt this girl further, though, you might want to wait until you aren't angry, and think about a strategy of change that would work - and get input and support from others before approaching the situation.

What is your end in this matter? Is it revenge? Is it helping this girl? Is it fixing a situation that is unhealthy?

"I did not assume you were an atheist."

You wrote a sentence directed at me , even capitalized the word "YOU" , yet it was intended for some one else ?

OK .

Frankly , I don't care if people believe in pink and purple , flying bunny rabbits . A scientist in a position of authority , however , who incorporates nonsense , especially to the detriment of a patient , should be confronted .

I reread my post, and it does sound like I'm saying you're an atheist. I often think metaphorically. And I use the metaphorical comparisons in writing. This creates problems when others try to interpret what I'm saying, if they don't look at what I'm "trying" to say. In other words, they focus on part of the metaphor, and miss the point.

My intent was to use the idea that atheists don't believe in God, metaphorically, to compare some things you have said. For example:

"Almost every church service I have attended , some guy was saying , God had talked to them or God answered their prayers , etc...Do you think this is all said as some metaphorical statement ? From my experience , these type of things do not occur, nor have any supernatural events ever occured ."

You do not BELIEVE they occurred. (the atheist comparison) Does that make it "not so?" You and I differ on this point, Abnak. I feel that if a person believes in something, it is true for them.

You can't go around telling people, "I don't believe in that, so you're full of ****!" A lot of people do, but all it does is piss others off.

"These behaviors and statements are encouraged by authority figures . In other words , people are taught to personalize and expound on " programing " they have received . Being rewarded with a sense of belonging to a group might compel alot of people , except the stubborn individualists , to be led along like sheep ."

I think there are other factors involved in hallucinations and delusional thinking than "programming" "by authority figures." There are a lot more factors.

Creating a villian - a scapegoat - out of authority figures, getting angry, and going after that person, leaves out all of the other factors, and will most likely do worlds more harm than has already been done.

The worst "programming" is the kind our media perpetuates - good guys and bad guys. Cowboys and Indians. Cops and Bad Boys. God and Satan. Dichotomous thinking - black and white.

There is another way of thinking, but most of us have forgotten it. It is an all-inclusive way. The good of all involved. Resist the black and white stuff, or you are just as guilty as the villian - and think. Brainstorm. The right answer is the one that makes everyone happy.

Abnak has asked "How I would use delusion to combat delusion" or something to that effect. ( I haven't learnt copy and paste on this notebook pc yet)

Voylady has used the example of persons delusded in thinking they are God, the typical God complex that seems so common among sufferers.
How would I approach this problem?

Firstly I may add that this has not been tried in clinical or other settings so in the main it is purely hypothetical.

I would approach the issue by firstly confirming that this is what the person believes. I woudl ask questions to identify what sort of God he thinks he is.
Say he replies that he is the God the one and only God. I woudl ask him what leads him to believe this without any attempt to discredit him.

He may say that he can read minds and influence people for example. I would ask him whether he thought God was only limited to mindreading and influencing people.
I would ask him to describe instances of the above.

I would then suggest to him that everyone has some capacity to influence people and mind read after all my wife does it all the time ( on both counts ha)
He would probably say at this point that his ability exceeds what he would consider normal. I would suggest that what is considered normal is a very grey area. I would go on to suggest that possibly he was aware more so than most of abilitiers we al;l take for granted and that may be he has certain ability that may be considered above average.
I would go on to ask him if he can consider his ability to be consistant and if so can he show me.
In most cases he will be unable to show any proof of ability to which I woudl rely that this also is quite common and that ability of this type is incredibly hard to master.

After the patient has managed to comprehend all this I would suggest that we learn how to control these abilities in a way that becomes productive.

Many sales people are really good at influencing people. Many people show great mind reading or anticipation abilities as well but I would ask does this make them "The God"

I would suggest that he has an above average sensitivity to his environment and with his conscent I would start to work with him so that he achieves a greater degree of comfort with his abilities.
At no time woudl I suggest that he was deluded except that he may be misuderstanding his mental state and provide him with a reference to wich he can work with.

Once the patient is grounded a little other abilities can be worked on such as life skills etc. The patient being much more receptive and less confrontational.

Voices? I hear you ask. ( did I say hear? )
I would ask him to describe avery thing they said and every thing he said I would ask him to take comprehensive notes even use a dictaphone I woudl take all of it seriously and pose questions that he should ask I would work with him in his communications, I woudl apply logic and reason to the whole issue and never deny their existence. I woudl assume that he was in fact talking to something whether it be a subconscious persona or his own or even one of some one elses I would get him to study and learne everthing he could and most of all I would inspire him to doubt the motivation of those voices and question everything that doesn't make sense.
I would work with him on all those questions etc.

I wouldl not send him out into society until an established regeim of question and answer was established and that he was able to avoid acting on the content of those voices. But most of all I would take it all very seriously never calling them delusion but only misunderstanding.

I would think that after about 2-3 months of intensive support the patient will be better equiped to deal with his issues.

During this time I would be helping to train his senses better etc etc and so on

..."when others try to interpret what I'm saying... they don't look at what I'm "trying" to say."

Lady , I have only your words to interpret and can not read your mind as to your actual intent . If you did not articulate a thought sufficiently ( I have done that many times ), thanks for taking the time to clarify .

"You can't go around telling people, "I don't believe in that, so you're full of ****!"

When did I ever say that ? Opinions should be arrived at though a reasoning process involving experience and evaluating facts . You responses to me include many inaccuracies . It's like you are trying to read between the lines , then arriving at a conclusion that is really only faulty conjecture .
That said , over all , Lady , you do have some excellent points that I will consider .

------------------------------------------

QQ, have you ever considered writing fiction novels ? Talk about an imaginary construct . It is interesting that the very thing levied against so called delusional people , is also utilized by the mental health "experts" ...ie: just making stuff up , then trying to convince others that it's real .

Good comment about that Quack though : The doctor (...) is in fact less sane than the girl I would think. In a position of high authority behaving so badly.

Abnak, I obviously have failed in the first premise by assuming that we all can accept that metal health issues exist in the first place.

Abnak Can I ask you a fundamental question?

Do you believe that insanity exists or is a figment of our imagination that it does?

Do you believe that mental illness is a reality in this world of ours or do you think that it is all made up?u

Until I was about 17-18, I seemed to mess up in any social situation. My view of the right thing to say or do was out in left field, and I often made an ass of myself. I was good at almost everything else: Studies (especially math & physics), sports, using tools, et cetera. If I had not been a good athlete, I probably would have been a complete outcast with no friends and zilch social life.

My life changed when I stopped paying attention to what I thought was the right comment or action in social situations, and started imitating the behavior of those who did not make asses of themselves. At some point I decided to imitate successful social behavior even though it seemed weird to me.

Lo & behold, it worked. I stopped embarassing myself.

My advice to people with mental disorders is to mimic the behavior of those considered sane.

If saying that you are Napoleon gets you in trouble, lie and say you are John Smith or whatever people call you.

If you get in trouble every time you do what god tells you to do, ignore him.

If need be, go to a theatical school and apply what they teach you to the task of acting like a normal person, even though you know that normal people are unfeeling idiots with no idea of the real truth. Knowing the real truth can be painful if it is not accepted as the real truth by a large majority.

Decide to be wrong and be allowed to live free or be right and live in a straight jacket in a padded room, or in jail.

Dinosaur, you speak of great wisdom and I agree very much with what you have suggested.
One ability we often forget about is our ability to lie. and act or mimic our environment. This ability is one that could be nurtured within a schizophrenic for instance, sort of like "Hey man so you are god, big deal, look around you, do you think it matters whether you are or not, what matters is being able to feed yourself, communicate with people normally etc etc....."

Learn to keep a secret with comfort in mind.

Thanks Dinosaur for your imput, some may find great value in what you have suggested.

I know I keep piping in with the bi-polar situation, so please forgive, but that is what I know. In a depressed swing of the cycle you don't have the choice to "act" like someone else. You can barely survive waking, living, sleeping. The more severe part of the manic side, no one or his brother could ever convince you that anything is wrong with you, so "acting" wouldn't work there either. In a situation like Dinosaur described, it seems more of a social inability (I'm not judging here). Isn't this in fact how society really emerges: one person or group of people do certain things and the rest of us (sheep to the slaughter) follow? That is what children do when they start school. It seems to me that it just took Dinosaur awhile to pick up on what most learn younger.

fair comment, and of course it goes without saying that there is no "one fits all" approach.
Bi polar in my understanding is a collection of abilities that if looked at as such may shed some light. One ability in particular comes to mind and that is "sensory amplification"

" Do you believe that insanity exists or is a figment of our imagination that it does?"

Yes , detachment from reality exists . It can be a permanent disorder for some people , it can also be manufactured . Hypnosis is real . Individuals can be induced to behave in all manner of strange and illogical ways . Many mental health professionals use manipulative techniques to fudge diagnosis in favor of producing their desired result . People in distress are particularly susceptible to being led to respond in a certain way .

" Abnak, I obviously have failed in the first premise by assuming that we all can accept that metal health issues exist in the first place."

This would be a misunderstanding on your part ...and by using your own criteria for what constitutes delusion ...you are suffering from a mental disorder .

I am prepared to accept that I MAY be suffering from a mental disorder are you?

I was kidding QQ. Misunderstandings and the other items from your list for delusional behavior are normal occurrences for all human beings at some time during their lives .

Manipulation techniques by mental health professionals have a major effect on patient responses . This could be , and I believe is used ( knowingly and unknowingly ) to increase the likelihood of obtaining life long customers . This is influencing and dissimulation for profit - fraud .


--------------------------------------

Am I willing to admit that I may be suffering a mental disorder? No, but I would not claim to be entirely sane and rational at all times.

I view mental illness to be an exaggeration of normal survival behavior.

If you do not expect anyone to ever cheat or harm you, you are too trusting and likely to be taken by scam artists and sucker punched by some would be bully when you turn your back on him. If you think there is a major conspiracy with you as the target, you are paranoid. At one end of a scale of 0 to 100, your life will be miserable because you are too trusting. At the other end of the scale, your life will be miserable because you spend too much time, emotional resources, and perhaps physical resources protecting yourself from an imaginary conspiracy.

Similarly for the manic depressive disorder. At zero on the scale, you have got to be the most bored and boring person imaginable. Never happy over the good things, never upset about the bad. No expectation of doing something useful with your life or abilities. No negative responses to failures. You cannot fail because you do not have the ambition to try anything a bit unusual. Up high on the scale in your manic stage, you think are Einstein, Michael Jordan, and Casanova. Nothing is impossible, and you are going out to do at least five incredible feats before lunch and impress the world with your skills. In the depressive stage, you are an unlovable, incompetent, worthless piece of dog doo, and might not survive your next suicide attempt.

Without a bit of the manic stage in your pesonality, you might not be willing to try to get a job, find a girl friend, et cetera. Without a bit of the depressive stage, you might have no critical judgment abilities to tone you down a bit. Can you go thorugh life with no mood swings at all?

As long as your position on each of the various scales allows you to function reasonablely well and have more happy moments than sad ones, I do not think you have a mental disorder, even though you might be suspicious enough of others to be classed as mildly paranoid, and/or have mood swings which might get you classified as manic depressive.

How many of you saw the movie in which Jack Nicholson played an obsessive compulsive? As disturbed as he seemed to be, he coped with life. He lived well and enjoyed himself. When the waitress quitting her job interfered with his rigorously scheduled life, he had the financial, intellectual, and emotional resources to take action. When circumstances indicates he might be happier taking a altered view of those around him, he modified his behavior slightly and improved his life. I would not call his mentally disturbed, merely very strange.

was kidding QQ. Misunderstandings and the other items from your list for delusional behavior are normal occurrences for all human beings at some time during their lives .

Correct and this is exactly what I am refering to as abilities that are at work that exceed that which allows for "normal" fiunction.

The abilities demonstarated by the mentally ill are just abilities we all take for granted and use "normally" It is when thoise abilitiess exceed the "Norm" and cripple the user that I would consider the peroson to be suffering a disorder.

People go to school for many years of their lives to learn ability and all I am suggesting is that because of the extremes involved the patient just basically go back to school and learn some more.

As Dinasaur has suggested the main criteria for diagnosis is whether the person can function in society even at a survival level. It is not about treating strangness but about treating and helping a patient survive better in society.

For most patients it is not just about getting a job but being able to pick up a telephone and making a call...to any one. It's about being able to watch Tv to fill in time. It's about being able to communicate at rudamnetary level, it's about getting through the day with out being picked up by police and taken to a hospital because he can't resist abusing other people etc etc etc.

Normal abilities out of control and at extreme states.

Learn to control and manage thoses abilities is what I am about with this proposal.

Abnak and others a good example of extreme beliefs and thinking could be a thread as linked here
Alien Jesus (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=27428&page=1&pp=20)

Give it a read and let me know what you think, ( no you don't have to read all of it )

The person comcerned may be at presemt harmless but because of his precarious state could very well become dangerous to himself and others

"The person comcerned may be at presemt harmless but because of his precarious state could very well become dangerous to himself and others"

And how do you know this ? How do you know this person is on the level and not just pulling all our legs ? It's your imagination working overtime QQ .

You conjure up and extend . This is called science ? True, the ridiculousness of this persons statements invoke a derisive response , but why is his absurdity such a concern to you ? I think it is because you wish to control others .

Stephen King writes horror stories , with all manner of blood and guts and veins in teeth subject matter ; would you propose isolating him because his work is offensive to you . Why do you keep placing yourself in the position of spokesperson for "society" . I think it is because you wish to empower yourself .

The reality is QQ, not every one is as intelligent as you are .

---------------------------

A follow up on the University of Pennsylvania shenanigans ...

This young women and others are being watched in their homes , through the use of hidden cameras . Judith Rodin reportedly is aware of this , even to the point of participation . This girl was raped , her "illness" induced , now she is some little plaything for some medical megalomaniac . If this was done to my child , I would......

Racket :

(1) An illegal endeavor (such as extortion or fraud or drug peddling ) carried on for profit .

Quack , plain and simply , you are a medical fabricator ,

Just so there is no misunderstanding on your part ...

If you fuck with me , my family or our property , I'll consider taking your eyes out with a spoon and forcing them down your throat .

Abnak, there is no where for you to hide..... You have no defense against me.....

Because I am your friend and not your enemy.....your fear of me is your fear of your self.

I never said you were my "enemy" . I am just stating facts as to your inventiveness and equivocating style .

I would also consider shaking your hand , yet this also is unlikely .

It would however , be an indication of your illogical mind and grotesque ambitiousness if you were to consider others your subhuman stepping stones .

Self defence is a natural right . Try as you may to twist and distort , you can not escape this truth . Rapists will be confronted .

Self defence is a natural right . Try as you may to twist and distort , you can not escape this truth . Rapists will be confronted .

Abnak,

This thread was posted as an attempt to offer an alternative approach to the issue of mental illness therapies. It is only an alternative and I might add only a suggestion which is why it is here.

It is unfortunate that this thread has degenerated in to an issue of fear, your fears and I might suggest that this is what my suggested approach wants to deal with...that being fear and how our imaginations react to it.

Your reponse quoted above reeks of a fear based reaction that is not founded in any way except by you and your own fear based self justifications.

On one hand you talk of plucking my eye balls out and shoving them down my throat and then tell me you are not my enemy.......What does this tell me do you think...?

You say that sef defence is a right but I ask you what or who are you defending your self from?
Me?
Not likely for I am not attacking you......so what are you so scared of? Or more importantly why are you imagining an enemy when there is none?

Mental disorder is primarilly about fear and how we react to fear and in the most part fear of ourselves and whilst you will claim that this is not demonstrated in your posts to this forum I suggest that if you have the courage you read your postings and have a look at them with the question in mind...."What am I fearing?"

If you wish we can talk of forum but this is up to you........

This young women and others are being watched in their homes , through the use of hidden cameras . University of Pennsylvania's Judith Rodin reportedly is aware of this , even to the point of participation . This girl was raped , her "illness" induced , now she is some little plaything for some medical megalomaniac .

Rapists will be confronted .

FRAUD:

(1) Intentional deception resulting in injury to another person

(2) A person who makes deceitful pretenses

(3) Something intended to deceive; deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage


EXTORTION:

(1) Unjust exaction (as by the misuse of authority)

Not home today ? I'll try again tomorrow .

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/rodin_legacy/images/dr-rodin-lg.jpg

Rape :

(1) The crime of forcing another to submit

(2) Destroy and strip


Manipulation :

(1) Exerting devious influence to take advantage over another person


------------------------

If this were my child ...
If this were my family ...
If this were my home ...

Add it all up :

Fraud
Manipulation
+ Criminal trespass
Felonious Harassment
Extortion
--------------------------------
Racketeering

...and it all leads directly to Dr. Judith Rodin and the University of Pennsylvania

An Update

Recently I have had interviews with a patient that has demonstrated repeated needs to communicate withe persons and parties not percieved by myself or his nursing staff.

In my discussions with this person over a 30 day period and some sensory training he now "leads" the conversations with these "voices" rather than "follows" these voices...in other words he is telling them what to do and not the other way round as was previously the case.

His clinical state has much improved and his attitude to life is more balanced and productive......

I know this is early days but I find all this very promising.......

Well I might as well post on the subject, since I know full well that Doctors that tend to be unaware of such equipments use tend to believe it's all about the mind.

The only actual constant that seems to make sense is that drugs nowadays are money, and either villians make money through selling drugs illegally, or medical research groups prosper through the use of clandestine research and constant barrage of telling a patient that their ailment is only of the mind and treated by drugs.

I have been the victim of such experiments over here in the UK, and perceivably a victim of how the current understanding on the medical profession takes on such explainations. It's not like the experiments are impossible to replicate, in fact the theory is very simple:

Dolphins utilise a method of clicking with their back of jaw to generate a soliton reverberation that outputs a signal that they can pick up when it bounces off an object underwater. It's their method of sonar.

When Sonar is picked up it's reconstituted into a reference from their skull taking the sonar and causing their internal hearing to process the sounds reflection.

The same can even be said for bats, again high pitched signals are sent out and bound across objects, to which those signals return and are picked up by the bats ears (which are usually large) and the reverberation of their eardrums allows them to process the information.

Both of these animals have Sonar in common, however us humans are incapable of generating a sonar stream naturally, this is why those that are doing are most definitely not the individual that suffers from events, and the reason why most people that suffer this complain so much about whats going o