The pledge of allegiance is nothing more than a bludgeoning tool of patriotic indoctrination used unfairly on American children . Why cant this pledge be said by every adult American over the age of 18 before they start work every morning , that way the persons reciting the pledge have a better understanding of what their pledge means ? because by having immature children swear the pledge of allegiance every morning to the American flag is a technique of brainwashing blank minds into becoming unanswering patriotic citizens . This brainwashing has payed off for the rulers of America who currently are prosecuting an illegal war without much resistance from it-s loyal patriotic citizens who believe it is their duty to get behind and support their nation America - see how it works .

The current pledge goes as following

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

How about a new pledge like this

I pledge allegiance to the PEOPLE of the United States that I as an American will defend and protect the POOR from wealthy predators , to house the HOMELESS , to never discriminate against minorities , to prevent wealthy lobby groups like the Israel lobby from extorting our tax dollar so we can give to our own . One nation under the democratic determination of the American people .

South American countries get way more than Israel and NEVER EVER PAID IT BACK!!! Over 1 trillion dollars has been lent to SA but not ONE FUCKING COUNTRY HAS EVER PAID IT BACK!! WHY NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM APPLES FOR STARTERS!!

REally? Are you sure about that? After all, the hundreds of years of resource extraction, capital extraction, and encouragement to trade dont mean anything?

Trade, then why do they need to borrow a trillion dollars if they have something to trade then they wouldn't need FREE LOANS WHICH THEY NEVER PAY BACK!

But firstly, they are paying them back, secondly the world economy is founded upon using debt as money creation so its impossible for things to be paid back, thirdly it wasnt generally the people who borrowed the money, it was the usual corrupt gvts, (and corrupt banks and gvt who lent it to them), fourthly, you need capital to develop, but due to the aforesaid corruption and suchlike, it wasnt used properly, fifthly, the people in charge dont actually want the money to be paid off anyway, it gives too much leverage to them.

Hey Brian,

I agree, the pledge is a brainwashing technique. It is not the only one in public school. Jumping to the sound of the bell, obey authority , popularity is important, Time clocks are more important than learning, subjucate yourself to another for acceptance, are all learned and enforced in US schools. Critical thinking is missing on purpose. The system seems to be geared to producing masses of cattle and it appears to be working.

But firstly, they are paying them back, secondly the world economy is founded upon using debt as money creation so its impossible for things to be paid back, thirdly it wasnt generally the people who borrowed the money, it was the usual corrupt gvts, (and corrupt banks and gvt who lent it to them), fourthly, you need capital to develop, but due to the aforesaid corruption and suchlike, it wasnt used properly, fifthly, the people in charge dont actually want the money to be paid off anyway, it gives too much leverage to them.


Where's the proof that they are paying down their debts? You really don't know at all, what about the 400 BILLION that America wiped clean for Brasil never ever having to repay that back, or did you forget about that? How selective memory you have when it comes to OTHER COUNTRIES but when Israel is spoken about all I hear is how much they take. Everyone seems to know so much about Israel but never brings up SOUTH AMERICAS DEBTS. I wonder why? Is it because SOUTH AMERICA is primarily CATHOLIC and not JEWISH?

Interestingly I just had a virus that someone tried to put into my PC. It happened right after that last post.

The pledge of Allegiance is stupid. I just learned it in school because I'd get a prize. I never said it again. I'll not pledge allegience to an inadement object. Teachers are stupid. They never realize you're just mouthing anything, in my case it was "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun"

At yearend 2001, the value of foreign investment in the United States exceeded the value of U.S. investment abroad by $1,948.1 billion with direct investment valued at current cost (Table 1). At yearend 2000, foreign investments in the United States exceeded U.S. investments abroad by $1,350.8 billion (revised).
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-ec0657.html


Central Government Debt
* Total government debt $billion September 2004 7379.1 7351.0
* * Short-term maturity (1 year and less) $billion September 2004 1185.4 1171.8
* * Long-term maturity (greater than 1 year) $billion September 2004 6183.4 6168.7
* Debt guaranteed by central government $million September 2004 184 180
http://www.fedstats.gov/imf/

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/icons/bpdlogo2.gif
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdhisto4.htm

You are pledging allegiance to the republic for which it stands. I personally pledge allegiance, but as an ally of the founding ideals of America not the irresponsible government running it. I think you should check out the Cato Institute(interesting that I share the name of the roman senator for which it was named and I also share his ideals)

p.s. I don’t say anything during the "under god" part

Where's the proof that they are paying down their debts? You really don't know at all, what about the 400 BILLION that America wiped clean for Brasil never ever having to repay that back, or did you forget about that? How selective memory you have when it comes to OTHER COUNTRIES but when Israel is spoken about all I hear is how much they take. Everyone seems to know so much about Israel but never brings up SOUTH AMERICAS DEBTS. I wonder why? Is it because SOUTH AMERICA is primarily CATHOLIC and not JEWISH?
No, its because it suits certain people to keep SA in hock for generations. As for paying off their debts, I can get evidence once i start digging. Of course, they borrowed/ were lent so much, that with interest payments, its almost impossible to pay off. Are you really sure the USA has ever lent Brazil 400bilion? Are you sure thats not the banks? Besides, where have I commented on Israel?
Are you worried about Catholics taking over the USA?

i seriously doubt the US would give money to any country without an alterior motive.
what we need to do is destroy america then use the mass of money it hoarded to help those who actually need it

No, its because it suits certain people to keep SA in hock for generations. As for paying off their debts, I can get evidence once i start digging. Of course, they borrowed/ were lent so much, that with interest payments, its almost impossible to pay off. Are you really sure the USA has ever lent Brazil 400bilion? Are you sure thats not the banks? Besides, where have I commented on Israel?
Are you worried about Catholics taking over the USA?

I was commenting on this:

"How about a new pledge like this

I pledge allegiance to the PEOPLE of the United States that I as an American will defend and protect the POOR from wealthy predators , to house the HOMELESS , to never discriminate against minorities ,


to prevent wealthy lobby groups like the Israel lobby from extorting our tax dollar so we can give to our own..


One nation under the democratic determination of the American people "

If you look you will find that the American government , under the DEOMCRATS , lent over a trillion dollars to South American countries over the 40 years they were running Congress. Here's one link you can read about part of that money and that was in 1982 since that time more than 200 billion dollars has been given away to Brazil for what?

War and Debt in South America
Susan Kaufman Purcell
From Foreign Affairs, America and the World 1982

Summary: Latin America was a media event in 1982. ?The fire next door? in Central America continued to make front-page headlines. In the spring war broke out between Argentina and Britain in the South Atlantic, where space-age weapons were used to fight a conflict that seemed a throwback to the nineteenth century. By the end of the year the debt crisis was center stage, with Argentina, Mexico and Brazil struggling to avoid default on a collective foreign debt of $200 billion.

Susan Kaufman Purcell is a Senior Fellow and Director of the Latin American Project at the Council on Foreign Relations. From January 1980 through June 1981, she was a member of the State Department's Policy Planning Staff.


Topics:
The Americas
Peace and Conflict
Economics, Trade, and Finance

Latin America was a media event in 1982. "The fire next door" in Central America continued to make front-page headlines. In the spring war broke out between Argentina and Britain in the South Atlantic, where space-age weapons were used to fight a conflict that seemed a throwback to the nineteenth century. By the end of the year the debt crisis was center stage, with Argentina, Mexico and Brazil struggling to avoid default on a collective foreign debt of $200 billion.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19830201faessay8317/susan-kaufman-purcell/war-and-debt-in-south-america.html

http://www.imf.org/external/country/bra/?type=39


"Are you worried about Catholics taking over the USA?"

Where I live they already have. In Florida we must now have spanish taught in public schools, we must have spanish on every governmental form and we must give spanish speaking people the EEOC rights that black Americans have seeing that they call themselves a "minority" therefore entitling them to many government jobs that say an American that has lived here for 5 generations cannot get.

Most Hispanic people that I have met are Catholics and most of the governments office holders in Dade county are Hispanic. Over 70 percent of the illegal immigrents that arrive here are from Hispanic countries. That includes Mexico as you well know. Over 1 million Hispanics enter the USA every year wheich gives the Catholics a great deal of power base to use.

"with Argentina, Mexico and Brazil struggling to avoid default on a collective foreign debt of $200 billion."

Thats 200 billion between the 3 countries. Its the gigantic ness of your figures I was firstly questioning, in a rather poor manner I admit. I cannot find any reference to the USA lending 200 billion more to Brazil. Its the banks that do much of it, and they arent american, are they? theyre corporate entities free from the trappings of ordinary states. And in case you havnt noticed Brazil is slowly developing, and exporting stuff ot pay off its debts. Too bad it still has the most opsided money distribution in the world.

"therefore entitling them to many government jobs that say an American that has lived here for 5 generations cannot get. "

That seems a little silly. Why give gvt jobs only to minorities? And is it true?

"Over 1 million Hispanics enter the USA every year wheich gives the Catholics a great deal of power base to use."

Hey, its a free country isnt it? All these Mexicans coming in are keeping wages low and forcing lazy americans to work harder, right?

If you think that by making the cost of living cheaper for those that have worked hard trying get decent wages all of their lives your absolutly wrong.

By bringing in cheap labor you undermine the very fabric of what America is about, the ability to live nicely with good wages. When those wages are lowered millions of people lose their lifelong jobs to those illegal immigrents. So if you think that when those illegals become legal they won't work together to overthrow your way and standard of living for what they want your wrong again.

They have worked to "push" out the locals here and by cheap labor to start with , they have gained power and wealth because they weren't paying taxes as those people who were working legitamatly. So they use the system to first gain streangth by cheapening the wages and flooding the area with more people that the area can handle then get the right to vote and remove those who have worked to make it what it was before the illegals were allowed in.

South American countries get way more than Israel and NEVER EVER PAID IT BACK!!! Over 1 trillion dollars has been lent to SA but not ONE FUCKING COUNTRY HAS EVER PAID IT BACK!! WHY NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM APPLES FOR STARTERS!!

Extortion of the hard working America people ias exactly what Israel does !

The Cost of Israel to the American People
First is the financial cost of Israel to U.S. taxpayers. Between 1949 and 1998, the U.S. gave to Israel, with a self-declared population of 5.8 million people, more foreign aid than it gave to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, all of the countries of Latin America, and all of the countries of the Caribbean combined – with a total population of 1,054,000,000 people.http://www.alhewar.com/Curtiss.html. (http://www.alhewar.com/Curtiss.html)

Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US
Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

Could I see where South America never paid back any debt ?

Here's an example of a truer pledge

I pledge allegiance to myself alone, and all that have helped me lately in the United States of America: One nation under the elitists thumbs, indivisible because they tell me, with liberty and justice for anyone who can afford it.

Could I see where South America never paid back any debt ?[/QUOTE]


http://www-camlaw.rutgers.edu/statecon/subpapers/souza.pdf

If you think that by making the cost of living cheaper for those that have worked hard trying get decent wages all of their lives your absolutly wrong.

By bringing in cheap labor you undermine the very fabric of what America is about, the ability to live nicely with good wages. When those wages are lowered millions of people lose their lifelong jobs to those illegal immigrents. So if you think that when those illegals become legal they won't work together to overthrow your way and standard of living for what they want your wrong again.

They have worked to "push" out the locals here and by cheap labor to start with , they have gained power and wealth because they weren't paying taxes as those people who were working legitamatly. So they use the system to first gain streangth by cheapening the wages and flooding the area with more people that the area can handle then get the right to vote and remove those who have worked to make it what it was before the illegals were allowed in.


For some reason, I highly doubt that there is any such organized secret agenda in their minds as they are crossing the border.... we're not being swarmed by sociopolitical strategists here.

And Im not sure where you got the idea that the fabric of america is built upon the idea of "the ability to live nicely with good wages" - that isnt unique to america. second of all, the idea of the minimum living wage has only been strived for since the depression - relatively recently in american history.

this isnt to say that *I* dont believe the idea of a minimum living wage isnt a good idea. I just am not naive enough to think it is or ever really has been a successful priority in this country - ie, that immigration is doing much damage to what we have of it. let alone that the illegal immigrants have some sort of malicious agenda against us...

because if you do want to talk about a tradition in this country, it has been one of immigration. and all the power any immigrant group has ever been able to carve out for themselves is simple absorption into the middle and lower classes.

For some reason, I highly doubt that there is any such organized secret agenda in their minds as they are crossing the border.... we're not being swarmed by sociopolitical strategists here.

And Im not sure where you got the idea that the fabric of america is built upon the idea of "the ability to live nicely with good wages" - that isnt unique to america. second of all, the idea of the minimum living wage has only been strived for since the depression - relatively recently in american history.

this isnt to say that *I* dont believe the idea of a minimum living wage isnt a good idea. I just am not naive enough to think it is or ever really has been a successful priority in this country - ie, that immigration is doing much damage to what we have of it. let alone that the illegal immigrants have some sort of malicious agenda against us...

because if you do want to talk about a tradition in this country, it has been one of immigration. and all the power any immigrant group has ever been able to carve out for themselves is simple absorption into the middle and lower classes.


Please read what I wrote again. I am speaking about ILLEGAL immigrants not legal ones. I have great respect for those who want to legaly join our country BUT there are those who want to overwhelm our very way of life so that they can become the next power base here.

If they keep coming in as they have been long time Americans will suffer for the lower the pay to get things doine will go always to those who will work for nothing just to survive in America rather than being deported back to their country where no jobs exist for them.

It bis a big problem when wages that I knew once, 20.00 an hour for a good tradesman, are now less than 15.00 an hour 30 years later. That was because of so many workers coming in and woring for far less than what had been raised to over the years before they arrived. Is it right for others, because they don't know the ways, to work for less because they want to live here and destroy what other people have worked all their lives trying to achieve?

Please read what I wrote again. I am speaking about ILLEGAL immigrants not legal ones. I have great respect for those who want to legaly join our country BUT there are those who want to overwhelm our very way of life so that they can become the next power base here.

If they keep coming in as they have been long time Americans will suffer for the lower the pay to get things doine will go always to those who will work for nothing just to survive in America rather than being deported back to their country where no jobs exist for them.

It bis a big problem when wages that I knew once, 20.00 an hour for a good tradesman, are now less than 15.00 an hour 30 years later. That was because of so many workers coming in and woring for far less than what had been raised to over the years before they arrived. Is it right for others, because they don't know the ways, to work for less because they want to live here and destroy what other people have worked all their lives trying to achieve?


Alright, I'll be clearer - I dont think even Illegal immigrants are organized enough to have such a unified agenda. They are not a unified force - they are individuals, who choose the same path. They come for self advancement, not political overthrow.

And the problem of undercutting our wages is a real one. But ascerting that the illegal immigrants are coming here just to hurt us is rediculous. They are coming here under duress - from situations in which they feel that coming here and working for even these extrememly substandard wages is such an improvement to be worth the trip and the danger. To ask someone who fears whether their family at home will survive without the money they send them whether or not they feel guilty about the effect they are having on the economy is rediculous. It isnt a matter of right or wrong for them - if they have the balls to come here, its a matter of survival.

The real problem is the fact that there is such a disparaging difference between the US and some of our neighbors. If there wasnt such a big difference between what work is worth each place, it wouldnt be an issue. Im not saying that bringing up the standard of living in all these other countries is a feasable solution - but if you are going to lay blame somewhere, you might as well have the cause right.

...A slightly only little more feasable solution would be to increase the educational level of all citizens in this country, and to create jobs utilizing those skills so that there would not be so much competition. But already other countries are catching up to us on that level and so we are having these outsourcing problems. And in my opinion, globalizaton is a much larger threat to the quality of life we enjoy in this country, and where there actually may be entities intentionally looking to overthrow our sociopolitical structure.

Kikisue ............

You say it is somewhat a problem of them lowering the wages, I'd say it is the problem that they make when they arrive here. I gave you the example of what happened to wages here where I live imagine that happening all over the country. That would affect the standard of living for everyone drastically.

Another thing is schools are overpopulated with students that cannot speak english and more time is required to educate those who arrive without any education what so ever. That takes away from teaching the real things that need to be learned.


The immigrants that don't have any education put many burdens upon American schools just by the shear numbers they come here with. They inundate the overcrowded schools with students who don't even know what the rules are and therefore they make up their own new rules to which American students must adjust to.

There are many problems with illegal immagrants and I'm only touching on the tip of the iceberg. These people come from countries which should be doing the education but aren't for one reason or another yet the American government keeps allocating BILLIONS of dollars to these countries to help them. Where's all that money going? Why is it that we can't put these people back to there respective countries and force them to educate their own citizens?

With a kid just in Kindergarden now, watching them go into public education - we are strongly considering homeschool, for many reasons, but them having to stand and give the pledge every morning is a pretty good symbol of many of those reasons.

We love America, and most of my family has served in the military proudly. However - we all also pretty much agree that love, loyalty, respect, honor, duty . . . they must all be learned & earned - not indocrinated. In fact, I think the constant repetition of the pledge diminishes the real power of it. Perhaps when one becomes an adult, getting the right to vote and such - then you should give the pledge. But having millions of kids recite it in unison each morning seems a bit contrary to the American spirit of individualism and liberty.

And, its not the original pledge - using the Macarthy anti-communist hysteria - In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. As if this was going to scare communists out of the country?! :)

The courts constantly get around freedom of religion issues with this by saying that the pledge is not required in the morning. However, we all know that when we were kids - for most of us - social pressure is the most powerful force of all, who is going to make themselves the butt of ridicule by abstaining from the pledge in front of their friends and enemies?

And so, the enforced droning of the words in unison continues from sea to shining sea each morning.

UPDATE :
EBAY, FRANCE & GERMANY BAN
THE USA's PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE?
http://rexcurry.net/pledgeban.html

Wait till you read it and see why !