... Including all the civilians he killed. (http://electronicintifada.net/forreference/keyfigures/sharon.html)

He killed? :rolleyes:

Come on, knock off the crap.

Did you actually read Sharon's history?

Sharon + Arafat = bloody mess

The complete lack of compromise on both sides is the reason people are dying. The US should continue to back off its support of israel and use its influence to get moderate peaceful leaders for both countries.

Has anyone read it yet? Any comments? It's really quite interesting.

Out of curiosity - were you aware of your source? I believe, Adam, that on a fair amount of occasions you have questioned sources of articles which seemed to show only the good side of Israel and pointed out that they were from Israeli or pro-Israeli sources. So did you know your own was, in it's own words, "the top informer of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle from the Palestinian point of view"??? What's the title on the top Adam, I think I forgot?? "Against the Israeli Machine"?

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/07/brooks.htm
http://www.ourjerusalem.com/history/story/history20020528.html
That second one is about as bias as the source you provided.



"(Sadam is) the defender of the Arab nation, of Muslims, and of free men everywhere."
- Yasir Arafat

Edit to add: That quote is from 1991 during the Gulf War

Any your point is? Yes, it's a biased source. Now have you any way of refuting Sharon's military record? Does that little rant of yours change the fact that he slaughtered a good many civilians while in the military?

I hate to be the one to tell you this Tyler, but Israel is a very crapulent country. They slaughter civilians like you eat breakfast, just a normal part of the daily routine.

I recently read something that struck me very hard.

"An evil person is someone who thinks they're always right."

I've seen you post alot of things around these boards, Adam. And to be quite honest they're deeply opinionated. You're always saying something like "this country should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Or wow, Australia is the best damn country in the WORLD!!! You even go as far as to saying which people you would kill/and or injure because of what they do or who they are.

I don't trust that any human being is perfect. Sharon nor You.


Now onto the subject. Israel doesn't "slaughter" human beings. I'd like you to actually prove that they do. Israel's a democratic country with law and a strong sense of social justice. Why is it that arabs can live freely in Israel, without fear of discrimination or of all things being murdered, while an Israeli can't even walk the streets of the west bank without knowing they have a good chance of being killed? Many, but not all palestianians hate Jews in particular. It reminds me of how this palestinian lady my grandmother knew. She was always nice towards my grandma and thought of her as very friendly. One day she found out that my grandmother's Jewish and started giving her dirty looks. Practically spitting in her face as though my grandma is evil for being Jewish. My point - A majority of palestians loathe Jew's in General. It's not Israel they really hate. It's like having an incredibly rich neighbor next door. It's nothing to do with the house. They probably feel Jelous, and as though they should be sharing in the wealth. I've repeatedly said that I dont doubt they could be just as wealthy had they invested in education and health instead of hate, 50 years ago.

The real problem is that arafat doesn't want a compromise. He thinks he deserves 100% of the land, and supports those who want 100% of Israel (under the table of coarse). In reality, they could've had peace by now prospered greatly if it wasn't for they're greed...

I support compromise, don't you?


Israel an island of Hope. Very few Israeli's don't support the country, though self criticism is a past time. And I'd be willing to bet that many arabs also admire the state of Israel, shiite Muslims for example. They like a state of peace. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with compromise?

Anyways, as you can see I'm delightfully tired from a hard days work. I think I'll collapse right here.
:cool:

Now onto the subject. Israel doesn't "slaughter" human beings.

Is that so? What about the UN workers they killed last week in Jenin? Oh, they were terrorists too, just like all the other women, children, old men, and other various civilians? Yes, I see now.

Israel's a democratic country with law and a strong sense of social justice.

So what? Russia is too, but they have slaughtered whole towns in Chechnya and continue to do so.

Why is it that arabs can live freely in Israel, without fear of discrimination or of all things being murdered,

Where the hell did you get this? Oh, I remember, you're an Arab, and you lived in Israel, and you felt quite comfortable. Yes, it's all very clear now.

while an Israeli can't even walk the streets of the west bank without knowing they have a good chance of being killed?

I've read quite a few webpages of Israelis who said they became leftists after carrying pro-Israel banners in Hebrew in West Bank cities and shouted slogans in Arabic, and everybody was very kind to them. Hmm? Hmm? HMM?

Many, but not all palestianians hate Jews in particular.

Hmm... I wonder why they hate me and my mother? Maybe because pro-Israelis keep claiming (when it benifits their cause) that Jews=Israel=Jews, causing the Palestinians themselves to think that? It is a very easy thing to think, since they are so closely related.

It reminds me of how this palestinian lady my grandmother knew. She was always nice towards my grandma and thought of her as very friendly. One day she found out that my grandmother's Jewish and started giving her dirty looks. Practically spitting in her face as though my grandma is evil for being Jewish. My point - A majority of palestians loathe Jew's in General. It's not Israel they really hate. It's like having an incredibly rich neighbor next door. It's nothing to do with the house. They probably feel Jelous, and as though they should be sharing in the wealth.

Oh yes, that must be it, and the over 1000 Palestinian civilians that have died from Israeli fire in the past 2 years (if you wanna say 400 are terrorists, then you still have over 1000) just make them feel even more jealous of the wealthy neighbour... NO YOU FREAKIN IDIOT! DUH!

I've repeatedly said that I dont doubt they could be just as wealthy had they invested in education and health instead of hate, 50 years ago.

Did they invest in hate? Or were they stripped of all chances to invest in anything when 1. Israel was created and 2. Arab nations attacked Israel, and Israel took even more land? Hmm?

The real problem is that arafat doesn't want a compromise. He thinks he deserves 100% of the land, and supports those who want 100% of Israel (under the table of coarse).

Well yes, before the Jews came back during WWII, almost 100% of that land was inhabited by Arabs. Take a trip to a refugee camp. Ask little kids what country they live in, they will say "Palestine". Ask them what town/village they are from, they may very well tell you the name of a village that hasn't existed 30 years.

In reality, they could've had peace by now prospered greatly if it wasn't for they're greed...

Is that so? Greed? I think it's the Jews who are greedy.

Let me put it this way:

Most Americans flee the US because of Canadian invaders. The vast Canadian empire soon collapses, and what was once the US becomes part of Mexico. 1500 years later, Mikreunja takes posession of the US after WW1233. During WW1234, Americans are being persecuted in Ichenglaojeu, and a massive genocide takes place. Many Americans flee to what used to be the US, and are happy to be free of the Ichenglai genocidal movement, but millions more become victims. After the war, Americans flock like crazy to what was the US over a millenium and a half ago. When the Mikreunjans begin to decolonise North America, they plan on giving Gaalifoona, Miwees, Iiskoos, Saos, and Voorida (all parts of what used to be the US) to the Mexicans, who are a majority in all of these regions. But Iiskoos has many American immigrants, and they want independance. Fearing conflict, many of the ethnic Mexicans flee. Then a war takes place between the Americans and the Mikreunjans, in which the Mikreunjans end up ceeding Iiskoos to the New World Order to decide what to do with it. The NWO decides to divide Iiskoos into a Mexican state and an American state. There are still many Mexicans living in both states, and they become enraged. The other newly-independant Mexican nations attack the new nation of America, and America responds by taking the Mexican state of Iiskoos. A few decades of repression later, a group of radical Mexicans becomes militant, organising such geurilla activities as suicide bombings of American restaurants, etc.

Now, here, I see that the people who should've gotten the nation was the Mexicans, and the Americans should've been treated as is any immigrant group in modern-day Canada.

The part about Israel being a Jewish nation more than a millenium ago may be true, but it is totally irrelevant to this situation. It has been more than one generation, more than two, more than ten, more than thirty generations since most Jews originally fled Israel, and now they all wish to return AND get an independant nation?

Ooh, ooh! I forgot to mention SETTLERS. They are the modern-day embodiment of Israeli greed from the time of British rule. Yes.

I support compromise, don't you?

I do too, but I think Israel should also have to give back the land it stole in 1949, which has since been annexed.

Israel an island of Hope. Very few Israeli's don't support the country, though self criticism is a past time.

An island of hope? Many Arab nations that aren't democratic are very near to democracy, with dissenters getting more and more support. And many Arab nations already have democracy.

And I'd be willing to bet that many arabs also admire the state of Israel, shiite Muslims for example.

Shiites don't like Israel any more than Sunnis do. They are divided on many issues, but this is a situation of repression of Muslims. Many Palestinians are Shiites. Israel doesn't care if the Arabs they kill are Sunni or Shiite.

They like a state of peace. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with compromise?

Nothing. But Palestinian refugees in other nations should get the right of return. Just like Jews from around the world are given priority for immigration to Israel.

Oh, and as for not including whatever plot of land, be sure to remember how the head of the leading Irish seperatist movement
accepted and agreement in which the three northernmost counties were to continue to be under British rule? See the fighting that's going on there now?

Anyways, as you can see I'm delightfully tired from a hard days work. I think I'll collapse right here.
:cool:

Me too. *zzz*

It actually gives Sharon's military history on some Israeli gov't site.

"An evil person is someone who thinks they're always right."

Sounds great, and it might impress teenagers, but unfortunately it is so weak and illogical that it can never be seen as a truism. If Ghandi was right, in his views on how people should behave, was he evil? Was Buddha? Hitler spent a great deal of time being dead wrong; does that make him good? If I think I am right, and I am right, and none of my actions cause harm, am I evil? Inm short, it's total bullshit. I suppose this is why you like it.


I've seen you post alot of things around these boards, Adam.

There is no such word as "alot", just so you know.


And to be quite honest they're deeply opinionated.

Yes. One of the major problems with the world is people having weak opinions, weak and feeble philosophies. "George Bush wasn't really voted in, but you know, I can't do anything about it, so I'll just go back to watching Jerry Springer..." I'm sure such feeblmindedness is more appealing to you than strong opinions.

What problem to you have with strong opinions?


You're always saying something like "this country should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Or wow, Australia is the best damn country in the WORLD!!! You even go as far as to saying which people you would kill/and or injure because of what they do or who they are.

Well, it's realy quite simple. Australia is better than most other countries in the world. Some cultures (cultures, not countries) do deserve to be wiped out, for the good of the poor suckers oppressed by those cultures. For example, the culture in India which allows a woman to be gang-raped for holding a guy's hand. That culture should be destroyed, and I would feel no remorse if mine was the signature authorising that destruction.


I don't trust that any human being is perfect. Sharon nor You.

I don't believe any twit who claims to be perfect. And I don't claim to be perfect. If you have something to say which is actually based on reality, let me know.


Now onto the subject. Israel doesn't "slaughter" human beings. I'd like you to actually prove that they do.

You're an idiot.
http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,137218-1-9,00.html
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/990902/1999090222.html
http://wwww.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/6686f45896f15dbc852567ae00530132/7738125ef7c2ca9bc1256c4b00470a79?OpenDocument
http://abc.net.au/news/2002/11/item20021127185951_1.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/07/23/mideast/
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/4227466.htm
http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/massacres/palestine/index14.htm
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/breaking_news/4227466.htm
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/04/News/News.44530.html
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/95/148/05_3.html
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/020926/afp/020926130246top.html

From the UN:
1 (http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=1&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=1904&docdb=pr2000&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)
2 (http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=2&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=1524&docdb=pr1996&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)
3 (http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=4&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=1736&docdb=pr2000&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)
4 (http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=7&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=804&docdb=pr1996&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)

There's heaps more if you could be bothered looking.

See, it's not that I enjoy being right about how crappy the world is, and how crappy people are. I wish I was wrong more often. But unfortunately I am right, and you all suck. Note my avatar.


Israel's a democratic country with law and a strong sense of social justice.

See the above links.


Why is it that arabs can live freely in Israel, without fear of discrimination or of all things being murdered,

I used to know an Israeli kid, about 17 years old, on my IRC channel. He went on patrols with the local IDF now and then. The soldiers came around and gathered up the young Israeli chaps, gave them guns, and took them patrolling. He bragged one day that they had found an body-searched two Arabs. I asked why. He said "Because they were Arabs".


The real problem is that arafat doesn't want a compromise.

Again, you're an idiot. Arafat walks a fine line, he lives in a constant state of compromise. One the one hand he must please the more vehement Palestinians. On the other, he knows that he must be a good guy or he will never have any international support.


He thinks he deserves 100% of the land, and supports those who want 100% of Israel (under the table of coarse).

Prove it.


I support compromise, don't you?

Occasionally, when it is the best solution. But often it is not. In which case I support right over wrong.

I've noticed a disturbing trend among many Israelis. They completely ignore reality. When an Israeli team of bulldozers and tanks destroyes a Palestinian village of civilians, these people say "They were terrorists", and 'my government would never do anythign wrong!" without actually even considering reality. And then, if anyone pionts out a bit of reality, they cry "You're anti-Semitic!" Bloody pathetic.

Face it, Israel is a shit state which survives by killing civilians and lying to its own people, and the people gladly swallow the lies rather than risk becoming disillusioned with their state.

Yasir Arafat has never been less than clear about his goals—at least not in Arabic. On the very day that he signed the Oslo accords in 1993—in which he promised to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel—he addressed the Palestinian people on Jordanian television and declared that he had taken the first step "in the 1974 plan." This was a thinly-veiled reference to the "phased plan," according to which any territorial gain was acceptable as a means toward the ultimate goal of Israel’s destruction.
The recently deceased Faisal al-Husseini, a leading Palestinian spokesman, made the same point in 2001 when he declared that the West Bank and Gaza represented only "22 percent of Palestine" and that the Oslo process was a "Trojan horse." He explained, "When we are asking all the Palestinian forces and factions to look at the Oslo Agreement and at other agreements as ‘temporary’ procedures, or phased goals, this means that we are ambushing the Israelis and cheating them." The goal, he continued, was "the liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea," i.e., the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea—all of Israel.
To this day, the Fatah wing of the PLO (the "moderate" wing that was founded and is controlled by Arafat himself) has as its official emblem the entire state of Israel covered by two rifles and a hand grenade—another fact that belies the claim that Arafat desires nothing more than the West Bank and Gaza

This thread is about history not politics. Certainly not about world events. It should be deleted.

Originally posted by Joeman
This thread is about history not politics. Certainly not about world events. It should be deleted.

You idiot. It's about both. Go lick your dick from behind. Oh, wait, you don't have one...

I don't think any progress will be made in the Israeli-Palestinian situation until both sides start to compromise. Basically, each side is convinced it is in the right and refuses to even acknowledge that the other view is valid. To make matters worse, many people have personal grievances related to the troubles, which leads to a repetitive cycle of violence and retribution.

This will continue until people agree to say "Enough!" Given the present political landscape in Israel, a diplomatic solution seems very unlikely in the near future. I seriously doubt any progress will be made whilst Sharon is in power - and he looks like increasing his hold in the upcoming elections. On the Palestinian side, Arafat carries much history with him, which is not necessarily a good thing. However, there seems to me to be no obvious successor waiting in the wings. (Perhaps somebody can enlighten me on why that is.)

I hope that the next generation will be able to take a longer view and make the decision for peace. Unfortunately, for many reasons, I do not see grounds for optimism at this stage.

I'd like to hear from anybody with a close interest in these events as to how you think peace will be achieved. I'd like to hear that you <b>want</b> peace; it seems to be something everybody says but nobody is prepared to make any sacrifices for.

GB-GIL, that was a mercyless analysis and so true....

The war between jews and arabs has gotten so down and dirty that even the moderate and/or intellectually gifted people amongst them are forced to choose a side and take up the sword or spread misinformation through the media or the internet....

We here in Europe tolerated for a long time what happened in Israel because we felt terribly guilty for what happened during world war two. On many occaisions Jewish lobbies have rubbed it in our faces in times they needed our support badly or to distract attention from some nasty deeds of their own militant people.

Because we tolerated people like Sharon, we have fed arab frustratration and now they bring their dirty fight to America and europe and to my favorite holiday destinations....

And the arabs are not one bit better, cause officialy they have the same arch-father as the Jews, namely: Abraham.

As you now familly quarrels are the worst,,,,,

Here is my piece of misinformation :

As you know south Africa and Israel closely cooperated in developing nuclear warheads and missiles. Ultimately the Jericho missile was developed, a true ICBM, that could hit any spot in the world. Rumour has it , that if Europe does not help Israel in a critical conflict thay will not only cover the arab world in a nuclear cloud but also shoot some of these missile to europe, partly blackmail and the other part as a FINUL FUK U for the germans for what the did in the 40's.....

Misinfo? Well, just chek Sharons record and see if he is less ruthless than Saddam Hussin or the local mad mullah...

Vortexx,

I'm curious. The part about blackmailing Europe - where did you get this info...I mean mis-info? It's the first time I've heard of it.

If you hate Jews and Arabs, then I hate you and I shit in your sorry little face, Vortexx.

My disgust is towards the religious nutters, I don't care the colour of their skin and if they wear turbans or not, protestant millitants in Ireland make me puke too, Hindu millitants that bash muslims and set mosks on fire make me puke also....

I guess one of the few religions that is truely peacefull and tolerant is Boedhism.....

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/israel/howfar.html

Not the kind of evidence that will hold up in court, but it does make you think, doesn't it?

did u ever think WHAT they belive in is secondry to there POLITICAL claims????

if u notice it is always about a COUNTRY

PALISINE and ISRAIL

not islam and jew

the REPUBLICAN ARMY and the (um i dont rember what the prodisant verision is)

one wants to be part of england and one doesnt

not religioes at all

B\W do u hate those who forght in the american war of inderpendance?

The Kurdish people have a saying: "A Kurd has no friends" and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Jews feel the same way to, considering being prosecuted by the Romans, The Inquisition, russian progroms, that german weirdo and being surrounded by a hostile arab world.

The founding of the state Israel was intended as and has given many of them as they call it "an island of hope", roots, identity, a safe harbour where they supposedly could lead a peacefull live.

Unfortunately, it is not really a safe harbour, you see, in order to create the "island of hope" in 1948 , they had to kick out the natives, wich are still pissed off...

The fact that they have such long range missiles tells me that they don't consider us true allies (and who can blame them with such a history!!!) And you know what, maybe they are right, for if right-wing hawks like sharon remain in power public opinion in the west will slowly turn against them.

What we really need is a man like Nelson Mandela, somebody who could stand above the parties and the religious differences, otherwise I fear That we need millions of gallons blood to be spilled before they get tired....


War is like a machine, and just like a machine the outcome can be predicted. All that is left for you is to take a side...

Yes asguard, it's always about a country and food and money and females....

And nearly alway religion is used to justify these claims, whether it's :

- ireland (protestants vs catholics)
- Kashmir (hindu vs muslim)
- Fillipines (catholics vs muslim)
- Israel (Jaweh vs Mohammed)
- Iran vs Iraq (sunnists vs shi'its
- Nigeria (muslims vs cristians)

And the list goes on and on.....

Ok I admit that in many cases, like in Africa, there always has traditionally been undelying Tribal wars, but these were relatively small scale wars (rampaging some neighbouring village, rape the wimen , by this inserting some fresh DNA in the population, no moral judgement here, just the facts).

But now it's no longer spears and axes, it's machine guns and nuclear warheads and most dangerous of all, now that they have found some religion to unite them i truely fear the scale of devestation they would cause and the impact on my freedom.

http://www.janes.com/regional_news/africa_middle_east/news/jir/jir990901_1_n.shtml

I dug up some old report, but wouldn't you say it's an awfull lot of nukes to have around? Saddam Hussain would give his left arm for such an arsenal...

The fact they call it Jericho missiles (walls of jericho!) and station them at Zaccharias (means God's revenge) is the telltale sign of religious nutters at the controlbuttons

Basically they can hijack the whole world and we can only hope that some day people with more sense will lead the country....

Vortex, not even Buddhism is immune to , erm, making you puke. Ever heard of Shintoism and what it make Japan do? Just dig round in Religion for "pros and cons of major religions".

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

I think i run out of barfbags :D

is israel doing this purpose? not good I think.




Israeli army destroyed food store: UN
JERUSALEM (December 03 2002) : A United Nations aid agency accused the Israeli army on Monday of demolishing its food warehouse in a Palestinian refugee camp during a raid, and called for an investigation and compensation for the loss.

The UN World Food Programme (WFP) said the army blew up the warehouse in the Gaza Strip's Jabalya refugee camp during Sunday's incursion, destroying more than 500 metric tonnes of food after preventing aid workers from removing it first.

The Israeli army did not immediately comment on the WFP's charge. It said it razed the family homes of three Palestinian resistance fighters in nearby Beit Lahiya during the overnight raid.

"WFP should have been permitted to remove the food. This act has been carried out against basic humanitarian principles," local programme director Jean-Luc Siblot said in a statement.

"WFP is asking the government of Israel to conduct a thorough investigation of the incident and take full responsibility for the losses incurred by the agency," he said.

The statement estimated the WFP's loss at $271,000.

Israel regularly demolishes homes of Palestinians blamed for suicide bombings and other attacks in a more than two-year-old Palestinian uprising for independence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It calls this a deterrent policy.

Last month, Iain Hook, a British official from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, was killed in a clash between Palestinians and Israeli soldiers in a West Bank refugee camp.-Reuters

"A Kurd has no friends" and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Jews feel the same way to, considering being prosecuted by the Romans, The Inquisition, russian progroms, that german weirdo and being surrounded by a hostile arab world.

I wonder if there's a reason why so much hate has been levied against the Jew?

Originally posted by dkb218
I wonder if there's a reason why so much hate has been levied against the Jew?
Every group has suffered at some point, often on a scale proportionately as large as that suffered by Jews in WW2. Ukrainians for example. Cambodians. My own people, when the Romans brought their bollocks religion north. 3,000 years ago, the Jews did as much killing and slaughter as anyone else, until they pissed off the wrong person, and after that nobody let them have an army again.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zero
[B]Vortex, not even Buddhism is immune to , erm, making you puke. Ever heard of Shintoism and what it make Japan do? Just dig round in Religion for "pros and cons of major religions".

Shintoism isn't related to Buddhism.

Originally posted by Adam
Every group has suffered at some point, often on a scale proportionately as large as that suffered by Jews in WW2. Ukrainians for example. Cambodians. My own people, when the Romans brought their bollocks religion north. 3,000 years ago, the Jews did as much killing and slaughter as anyone else, until they pissed off the wrong person, and after that nobody let them have an army again.

Ooh, ooh!

Ainu, Tsalagi, Diné, Inuit, Assyrians, Basques, Roms, and lotsa other pebbles~~!