A conundrum of a question about free will

First off the premise is that there is a god. If you don't believe in the possibility of there being a god then this question is not for you.

Ok my question is not "if there is a god why do bad things happen"

My question is "if there is a god why do evil people exist"
Now before i get the "free choice" business thrown in my face yet again please hear me out.


I'm expressing this in a semialgebraic form because there are so many variables and even if i did make out a specific story for it then people would get hung up on the details instead of my point.
I hope it doesn't sound too confusing.

What you experience = life = who you are and what choices you make with your free choice
Variables:
A=soul in question
D=evil person type/outcome-no heaven
E=good person type/outcome- heaven
Life 1 - X
Life 2 - Y
so A+X =D
but A+y might =E

In other words. Same original soul- Different life. Different person. Different choices made.

Basically speaking if god is omnipotent and omniscient.
Why doesn't he just create the environment for each of us that we would need so that we can choose on our own the good path?

I mean people manipulate each others environment all the time. Much of what we do and say affects the decisions of others. Priests believe this. They believe they can save people else they wouldn't do it.

So if humans can make that much of a difference a omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to do to the nth degree more.

This conundrum leads me to believe if a god does exist he couldn't be omniscient omnipotent all compassionate etc all at the same time

 

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And it gets worse too...

If god is omnicent than he knows the future with 100% accuracy.

If god can know the future there are no undetermined factors.

If god is omnicent there is no free will. We are just following a preset path.

If god is omnipotent he is the only one who determines what path fate will take.

If god is omnicent/omnipotent everything that happens in the universe is directly his fault.

 

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My question is "if there is a god why do evil people exist"

Your question should be, “why do people exist.”
But as it is not, let me ask you this, what do you think evil is and have you ever done anything evil??

Basically speaking if god is omnipotent and omniscient.
Why doesn't he just create the environment for each of us that we would need so that we can choose on our own the good path?

He does, but we violate the laws of his creation.

So if humans can make that much of a difference a omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to do to the nth degree more.

If God does everything for us, then we become complacent, and do not strive for pure love of God, hence liberation from the stringent laws of material nature.
Imagine doing an exam where the teachers gave you all the answers, what would be the point of that?

This conundrum leads me to believe if a god does exist he couldn't be omniscient omnipotent all compassionate etc all at the same time

This is because you are seeing it from your own perspective, as I always say, try and at least develop some knowledge of God.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

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By definition if God is omnipotent/omniscient he is (a) all-powerful and (b) knows absolutely everything, has total knowledge.

If God created the Universe he, by definition, knew the entire future of everything. If he didn't, he is not omniscient. This means that, had he wished, he could have created a Universe where Hitler, Stalin and every other monster through history would have never existed. If he was not capable of this, he is not omnipotent.

Thus we can conclude there are two options. Either god is not omnipotent or omniscient. Or he is and he fully knew the Hitler's of history would occur and everything else and made the conscience choise to make a universe where all that would happen.

And, of course, having a god that is omniscient erases the idea of free will. If something knows with 100% exactness what you are going to do, there is no true free will as there is only one way for things to go. And, as sure as I am of this I am sure that Jan will reply with mumbo-jumbo about having a personal relationship with god and that logic doesn't matter when dealing with god.

 

Much of the time people just don't get what im saying.
This is one of those times.
quote

If he did then we wouldn't do so. You contradicted yourself due to your lack of understanding of what i was saying.(that or not thinking it through)

What I am saying is that if god were omniscient,omnipotent and all loving. Then he would provide the environment that we need to choice said path our self. It would still be our choice but because of the needed hardships and lessons god would provide us because of him being those three things each of us would choose a path of goodness of our own free will..

So if he did then no one would do evil.

I said If he were omniscient,omnipotent and all loving.
He would manipulate our environment in order that well all learn the hard lessons we need to (the hard way of course else it isn't a hard lesson) In order for each of us of our own free will and violation choice that path of goodness.

Using your examples it would be like a teacher doing outreach to his/her students finding out if and why they might not be studding like they should. Teaching them the love of learning and making sure they come to class each day. Not like giving the answers.

except unlike a human teacher a omniscient,omnipotent and all loving would not fail because he could see all possible outcomes before even starting.

Isn't there any moderates?

Someone with a open mind? Someone willing to consider the possibilities with me and truly hear what I'm saying?

 

he did then we wouldn't do so. You contradicted yourself due to your lack of understanding of what i was saying.(that or not thinking it though)

I’m sorry, I probably didn’t understand your point clearly.

god were omniscient,omnipotent and all loving. Then he would provide the environment that we need to choice said path our self.

Why do you think this present environment is not suitable?

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

"Why do you think this present environment is not suitable?"

If Christianity is true - I'd say a good 1/5th of the world will never hear of Christ.
If Judaism is true - I'd say a good 1/5th of the world will never hear of Judaism.
If Hinduism is true - I'd say a good 1/3rd of the world will never hear of Hinduism.
If Islam is true - I'd say a good 1/5th of the world will never hear of Islam.


If one of these religions is true, then God has eliminated a hell of a lot of people from ever finding the true religion. And that's just today in the 21st century. Think of what it was like in, say, the 15th century.

 

It says right in the Old Testament that God is a Jealous God and did not like how human beings worshipped other deities. So, why would an omniscient God create an universe where the possibility of himself/herself falling out of favor could occur? Somehow this makes me believe in an ultimate being that is superior than us in many ways but does not possess omniscience. So maybe this being created the universe but cannot see into the future, it can only make probability analysis of what might happen.

But the question of free will is quite the conundrum, for instance, if God wants us to worship him and no others, why would he design his world in such a way that it people wouldn't learn of God?

Touching on what Tyler said, if Christianity is the true religion and God wants us to follow that- then he has already excluded a hell of a lot of people.

It seems like in the current design of our world (if God designed it) then he set himself up to fail.

 

Hmmmmm, it all makes perfect sense now!!

As we see countless times in the Bible, God LOVES to kill and smite people!! As far as I can see it's his favourite past time (either that or philosophical debates where he fucks with a human to prove his point). So God sets up the Universe in such a manner that humans were destined to screw up and inevitably he would need to launch a major attack against forces of evil!!

 

Good point

That just might be shadow. Well put
I was thinking somewhere along those lines.

Tyler I strongly disagree. If there is a god he can't be sadistic

I mean can't as in not physically possible. In order for a being to reach that magnitude of power god would have to have found wisdom and be kind and loving.

Evil is destruction of ones soul and in the end satan (assuming it exists) Will have destroyed its self with its own evil

 

I was speaking solely of the Christian/Jewish/Islamic God in my latter two posts.

 

problem is all the evidece points to the fact that he is. God is omnipoten/omniscient the practical result of that is god becomes the puppetmaster of the universe. Everything that happens is a direct result of gods manipulation. This includes human suffering of course.

Possible, but most religious doctrine says that god was always the omni-everything creator that he is now and that he dosen't change.

 

They also speak of a loving god.

I find a loving kind perhaps not quit omnipotent or omniscient

Alot more easy to believe then a god that is omnipotent omniscient and somewhat cruel or what not.

Like I said. To have a soul as powerful marvelous knowing etc. as that which is described to god. By its nature of how such works the way i see it he would have to be kind,loving etc.

Perhaps if i described my definition of good evil and the soul you would get a better idea what I'm talking about. Ill put it in its own topic so things don't get mixed up and confused. Might take a few days or more. Perhaps only a hour.
(its hard to describe and takes some energy and time. Got some house cleaning to get done as well)

Anyways if god was as .. i forget the word.. as that then that would make him more a zeus type figure. No way am i believing in some kind of zeus type god.

 

What makes you think god would have to be so great to hold his position?

More importantly, what makes you think that your view on good/bad is the actual, objective truth of god? How do you know god isn't a Nazi and that his morals are actually quite the opposite of yours?

 

Everything said about god including god making the world and the people within.

A reasonable question.

I may be wrong ... I may be right. That is the nature of philosophy. You must treat everything with even a sliver of a possibility of being mistaken. I might not be real. The sun might not actually be coming up each day. Perhaps its all the fitful dream of a cosmic rabid rabbit as it twitches dying. Perhaps its all a elaborate computer simulation just a large test of character.

But to philosophy you can't deal with all these possibilities. Its just not practical or even possible. You must eliminate the unlikely according to the evidence that you find. As humans were going to be attached to our own point of views. Even the most open minded becomes mired in there own perspective. Thats inevitable and not always a bad thing.

Anyways I'm not just spit balling. I have reasonably sound and incredible well thought out reasoning behind what I'm saying.
I have been a philosopher ever since I was very young. (maybe around 8 or so) I needed answers to why certain very bad very unpleasant things that were happening to me. Such was that sent me on the quest to learn the true nature of the condition of what is. So some of this is stuff ive been working out for much of my life.

Gosh.. sorry i said all that

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too much huh? Anyways wait for me to make my good evil and soul post and perhaps see where im coming from.

 

Well that post came out... come see!
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10661

Its full of much wisdom and weirdness. A worthwhile read! Not to mention it brings new meaning to this post. If anyways has any replies please do post them(on this thread or the other)

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Oh, spare me. Is this what passes as a rational statement of fact amongst believers?

 

you try to dismiss my argument with a wave of the hand and a snide comment about religious beliefs. Pathetic. Do you really think that is real discourse and debate of a topic?

FYI this comes not from a religious or a athiest pov but my own.

 

Hmm i think the reason i'm getting so little reply to this topic is there are people who agree. People who disagree and noone in the middle.

Ok then. Would someone please tell me what they think my best or worst argument of this is and how so?

 

I guess the religious persons of this messageboard aren't capable of stepping up to the plate to answer my questions. Or repute my argument. Tis a shame.