A change for main street America?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by quinnsong, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Could we have a viable economy w/out Wall Street? If no, why not? If yes, how?
     
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  3. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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  5. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, there are other countries that didn't have anything like our stock market and are doing OK.
     
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  7. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Which countries?
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Chad, Libya, Jordan, Afghastan, Oman, Ethiopia are a few that do not.
     
  9. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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  10. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Is there really no alternative to a few (ruling class) running and ruining our economic lives other than a socialistic economy? Mixed economies like Sweden, France and Germany do fairly well, but are there no new ideas or theories for better economic systems?
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I could not help but notice that 5 of the 6 you referenced are torn apart with civil war and suffer from severe poverty.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Not really, the mixed economy is as good as it gets.
     
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Libya is now just having its revolution but a month ago you heard nothing at all about it. Same with Jordan, a month ago it was OK. In Afghanistan it was being run by the teliban befor wat broke out and they weren't asking for money from anyone, interestinmg isn't it? Now that America invaded it , it is recieving billions in aid yet where's that money all going?
     
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, I think you need to check you facts. For starters check the average income for residents of those countries and see what that tells you. Also, none of the countries your referenced are economic power houses. None of them are world powers. And their wealth is soley dependent on what they take out of the ground. None of the countries you referenced have a signficant manufacturing base or service base. They all have high rates of unemployment. And none of them are democracies or have a strong democratic tradition.

    It has been a very long time since any of these countries were ok in any commonly used sense of the term.
     
  15. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    You asked me a simple question , if you remember, what were some countries that didn't have a stock market and are doing OK. While I agree that these are not "power houses" of great businesses they are well established countries that have millions of people living in them and there standard of living is up to them to choose, not you or me. Why is it wrong not to want to establish a large business concern within any country that doesn't want it done? Although they aren't rich to your standards , they do get by without financial aid from America for the most part.
     
  16. X-Man2 We're under no illusions. Registered Senior Member

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    Lets not be confused with the low income of the the Countries CT pointed out is not due to no stock market.Their poor only due to the leaders stealing all the money.Otherwise I'm sure they would be a good example of Countries doing well without a stock market.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Considering only the economics, The system evolved in China may be better. It has produced three decades of annual growth rate about three times greater than the US's system has.

    China learned for the failures of total central planning and has a free market economy for goods and services you might want to purchase; but a centrally planned long range (ten 5-year plans) program of infrastructure development. Furthermore, the implementation of these 5-year plans is overseen by engineers, not lawyers as in the US's short term (until next election) planning.

    Thus China is signing 20 to 30 year contracts for future deliveries of the needed energy, raw materials and food stocks it will need decades from now. China is building "smart grids" and ordering 425 new nuclear power plants and has been putting at least 8 new ones on line each year for years. China is building high speed rail systems for its world speed record setting trains and soon will have more miles of track for them than the rest of the world's total.

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    China has permitted farmers to rent out their land to form large efficient farms, and the rent collecting former pig farmers are moving to one of the 100 new cities China is building in this and the next 5-year plan, each for a population of ~1,000,000. All will have modern facilities, such as subways, etc. Instead of energy intensive "suburban sprawl" China is concentrating it population in new high-rise units to free up farm land, instead of pave it over.

    All this takes an intolerable (from US POV) central power. For example, China built the world's largest (1 mile long) and most modern airport terminal (shown above) and runways for the Olympics, in less time than England spent in public hearing for an expansion of the runways at Heathrow!

    China realizes that broke US and EU can only buy the production of its factories so long as China lends them the money to do so. Consequently, China is converting to a more domestic based market economy - Double digit real increases in salaries, drastic reduction of the out of pocket cost for the sick needing care, and many new hospitals and clinics to provide those services Leaves more money in the pockets of Chinese shoppers. China is rapidly expanding trade with its also prospering Asian neighbors. For example, eight new bi-lateral free trade agreements, more than a dozen currency exchange agreement (Dollar no longer used as an intermediate for trade.) So last year S. Korea had China replace the US as it primary trading partner, etc.

    All these improvements in living standards for the Chinese have risk for the CCP - the people may want more freedoms, and end to the corruption of high official getting rich etc. That is the central promise made in the recently announced 5-year plan. Its main objective is no longer rapid growth, but more equitable distribution of wealth.*** The CCP is not dumb - they know that the only way they can keep power is to reduce the abuse of it. Also, now that good jobs are available in the interior of China, there is a sever labor shortage in China - 10 to 20% of the workers did not return to the coastal factories after the Year of the Rabbit holidays ended. Likewise the rapid growth of China has made sever pollution problems (Just as it did in the US when the US was at that stage of development. For example, when Pittsburg was the "steel capital" of the world, you could not see across a wide street on windless days.)

    Certainly, currently non-economic considerations leave China a long way behind the Western world, but you asked about economic systems. Only time will tell if the pass they US in these areas too, which they may, if US sinks into deep depression and perhaps marshal law to control disorder.

    For a much more upbeat look into the near years than my "run on the dollar by or before Halloween 2014" with depression in US &EU soon following see: http://www.zackswmg.com/pdf/econreport.pdf
    I think it is totally wrong as it ignores the growing deficits and the question as to who will finance them.
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    *** "... Wen, 68, said Feb. 27 that the government would push to narrow a growing wealth gap which Credit Suisse Group AG said in an August report was at levels not seen outside of Africa. Wen pledged to tackle surging property prices that have put home ownership out of the reach of many, control inflation and crack down on official corruption. “We should not only make the cake of social wealth as big as possible, but also distribute the cake in a fair way and let everyone enjoy the fruits of reform and opening up,” Wen said Feb. 27, according to state-owned Xinhua News Agency. Wen’s opening address to the Congress tomorrow, scheduled for 9 a.m. in Beijing, is set to detail the government’s latest Five Year Plan for China, {is} focused on bolstering domestic demand and household spending. ..."
    From: http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVYlh34CLZmg&pos=9

    But same article tells that the richest 70 members of the CCP congress have more than 15 times the wealth of the richest 70 members of the US congress and they don't want increased taxes on wealth. Their argument would warm the hearts of US Republicans:
    If we don't have great wealth, then the factories would not get built and jobs would not be created - don't tax wealth.

    China is clearly a land where some are "more equal" than others as in Animal Farm. - Wen wants to change that, but it "ain't gonna be easy."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2011
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I applaude you for answering the question. But it was not mine. I believe it was quinnsong who asked if there was a better system.

    The countries you referenced are not better economic systems in my book. It those countries did not have oil, they would have even less than they have today - which isn't much.

    The bottom line is business needs money. And the most efficient way to faciliate that need is Wall Street and the banking system combined with government to regulate and keep things on an even keel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011

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