Romans 9:6-24
9:6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 7 nor are all the children Abraham's true descendants; rather "through Isaac will your descendants be counted." 8 This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants. 9 For this is what the promise declared: "About a year from now I will return and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our ancestor Isaac— 11 even before they were born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's purpose in election would stand, not by works but by his calling)— 12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger," 13 just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For he says to Moses: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh: "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?" 20 But who indeed are you--a mere human being--to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Can anyone explain this passage of the Bible in a way where:

God is still just?
God is still love?
God is still good?
God is still merciful?
God is still beautiful?
God is still righteous
God is still impartial?

How can man’s freewill still exist if no one can resist His will? If freewill does not exist then how can a man be held responsible for his own sin? How can God be just if He holds a man responsible and sends him to hell in torment forever for merely existing in the form in which he was created, for fulfilling his designed purpose? How is God not deliberately creating people to be evil and to be tortured so He can look righteous and powerful by comparison?

The picture I get here is that of a psychotic puppet maker who deliberately creates a puppet who can feel pain. He paints it the color black, which he hates. Then he physically tortures it to an excruciating degree for all eternity for being painted black, for being the very color he painted it to be. The puppet is then scolded and even belittled for daring to ask why he was painted black instead of white, the puppet maker’s favorite color. Isn’t this puppet maker in essence really torturing and holding His own puppet responsible for what he (the puppet maker) alone has done. Would not the responsibility for this really rest with the puppet maker himself for the puppet cannot be in actuality anything other than what he was created to be?

How, indeed, then can God still find fault with us? How can this be righteousness and justice? This seems like a bad nightmare. My dog is treated better than this in my house. Is this really what is being communicated here? If not, then what?

This is not intended as an attack on anyone! These are sincere questions and I am looking for real and substantial answers. This is a sincere cry for an answer! What am I missing? Please tell me how I am wrong here!

Best wishes to all who read this!

Ken

God is still just? no
God is still love? no
God is still good? no
God is still merciful? no
God is still beautiful? never seen him
God is still righteous no
God is still impartial? no

p.s. your god Jahve doesn't exist

Thank you for your opinion!

try reading "the book of Job" in bible

Avatar: try reading "the book of Job" in bible
*************
M*W: What good would come from reading the lies in Job? When will you people ever learn that there is no truth in the Bible?

This passage is one that is near and dear to my heart. Cliche, perhaps...but true. I struggled for a long time with it until I realized something. The next breath I take is by grace alone. I am part of Adam's race and I am a sinner. Because God is Holy and he created me, he has every right and authority to immediately cast me into hell. However, he lets me live on. He loves me and he allows me to go on breathing so I can give glory to him.

How then can he condem me for my sin?

Allow me to run down some facts:

First of all, God is not a puppet maker. You have the choices everyday that are between good and evil, right and wrong. No excuse can remove you from the responsibility of those choices. Nothing.

Secondly, God knows everything. Otherwise he wouldn't be God. By definition he knows all things past, present, and future. He knows what situations I am going to run into and what choices I am going to make in each situation. Therefore, if he alters the situations he can alter the decisions I will make.

Third and foremost (which is an odd phrase, I know), God loves people. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that "He [the Lord kurios] is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence."

Undestanding each of these facts by themselves is one thing. The difficulty is the synthesis. How can God be/do all of this at once? How can he create a man (or woman) and set them on the earth in a situation where he knows they will not come to repentence and a saving relationship with Jesus? The answer is just a few chapters earlier in Romans chapter one verse twenty. In the New International Version it reads: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Everyone has had an opportunity to turn to God. And yet we didn't. Regardless of whether or not God knew that we would or wouldn't, we've all recieved a more than fair chance. We've all been given a second shot at the relationship with God that Adam lost in the garden. The choice is up to us.

I apologize for and mistakes (gramatical, spelling, or otherwise) in this post. I need to get more than three hours of sleep a night :-). I hope this little bit of what God showed me when I was struggling helps you. I will pray for you Ken. May you find the answers that are in Christ.

Avatar: try reading "the book of Job" in bible
*************
M*W: What good would come from reading the lies in Job? When will you people ever learn that there is no truth in the Bible?
hehe, religious folk, you are so funny :D
I better get out of this forum, before I get braindamaged :m:

The main "rationale" you're going to get is that God being "just" and "loving" and all that is simply anthropomorphism.

Needless to say, anthropomorphism is the fabrication of man, not God.

Because the Pharoah had already committed sins such as unjustly persecuting the Jews, God could have left the Pharoah to his own devices for a while. This occurred before Christ's final victory over sin; hence without God's grace, the Pharoah could easily fall into sin by his own free will.


How can man?s freewill still exist if no one can resist His will? If freewill does not exist then how can a man be held responsible for his own sin?

If his will is for us to have free will, then we would have free will.

Ken,
I would like to help you but I will need to learn more about you so I don't waste your time.

These issues are not black and white.

If you want to communicate privately send me your e-mail at numberscripts@hotmail.com

Regard's,
Harry.

((1Dude)))...Hi, yip, you have bible-itus alright. you have bought into the indoctrination of that book. a book which in its way has brought SO much conflict, and misery to so mant people over the centuries.

First off, you have to understand...it isn't 'God's "Word"...in fact the very MEANING of "Word" is the clue where the whole ethos is coming from. it is a command -not from 'God' but from a MALE authority--known as the patriarchy. which simply means 'the rule of the fathers'

So click straightaway--if possible--that there is no need to believe that book at all. whjat it does to gullible readers is make them feel guilty about themselves. this ploy is shared by all male fascst elites, including our own governments, which are fascstist. it is the ploy of 'divide and rule'. first they have to split you. in the community this would be the poor fighting the poor. and/or the poor fighting another people of a different colour in their community. This means that the energy to see THROUGH the prevailing oppressive domination from the authorities is diverted to conflict between the victims of it. the ones getting fleeced
But therer is a deeper divide and rule, and that comes from biblical doctrine which tells you you are a sinner who needs to be saved, and that if you don't obey 'God's' author-ity, then you will go to hell for everlsting punishment. can you not see 1Dude, how this nasty little fascist shite would come ONLY from silly men's heads?...i am not putting down ALL men here by the way. just the ones who are so cut off from life themselves that the only pleasure they get is inhuman power over others, thus getting what they imagine is power for themselves. but really, like any bully in school etc., what that behaviour is is hurt.; something not right in their lives--a sense of powerlessness which they then seek to reclaim by lordin it over others

also, 1Dude, you must use the Web. there are some really great pages which show you in graphic detail the utter contradictions and evils in the Bible. ...let me know if you want some urls and i'll try and dig some oue for you

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52009.htm

This may not answer all of your questions, but it may help you to gain a clearer understanding of this passage.

As for these comments from duendy, that is merely your construal of it. Undoubtedly, texts of any kind can lead the unwitting and short of sight into conflict with himself and others. However, when understood properly and in proper context, as well as coupling what is written with history, philosophy, experience, and science, then conflict is the last thing such religious texts should stir within the individual. I certainly do not use what is written in the Bible as means of conflict, nor am I controlled by it. I am disappointed that so many people would take such cynical views of something that can be of great goodness, when understood correctly.

When I was a child I used to have great fun with small plastic bricks. I would make huge towers. When they got so tall they would topple and I would break the toppled tower up into its individual components again. Then I would go back to the beginning and make a new one. I would do this for hours because it was my pleasure to do so. They were my bricks. Imagine my suprise should one of the little bricks have turned round to me and said " I do not want to be a tower". Haha my bricks, I'll make you into whatever I choose!

((beyond time and spacee)))...'when [Bible] is understood correctly" ? which means exactly what? YOUr interpretation, Calvinist's, protestants' catholiks, methodists, ? whose interpretation

seeing you seem to know, give us a little lesson about how Bible should be understood 'correctly'?

beware though. you just may get challenged a bit!

As for these comments from duendy, that is merely your construal of it. Undoubtedly, texts of any kind can lead the unwitting and short of sight into conflict with himself and others. However, when understood properly and in proper context, as well as coupling what is written with history :confused: , philosophy, experience, and science, then conflict is the last thing such religious texts should stir within the individual. I certainly do not use what is written in the Bible as means of conflict, nor am I controlled by it. I am disappointed that so many people would take such cynical views of something that can be of great goodness, when understood correctly.

beyondtimeandspace, I'm not sure if you consider yourself a fundamentalist, but what you have written above certainly smacks of it.

Translation (my construal of the above ;) ):
"YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE THINGS OF THE LORD IF HIS SPIRIT DOESN'T DWELL WITHIN YOU"

(a) I'm special. I'm saved. I understand spiritual things now because I have become spiritual. You don't understand. You're not saved! You're not spiritual like me.

You can understand spiritual things too once you ask Christ to come into your heart (...and spend a couple of years allowing me and the other brethren to condition your mind daily to think the same way we do).
++++++

It cannot be denied that there are countless posts by christians on this forum that ultimately come down to this (usually adding in the bonus of "I pity that you don't see it", or "I'll pray that you will eventually come to understand", or even the vainglorious proclamation that "One day you will understand").

What I don't understand is that no one seems to want to explain how one should "understand properly"... or indeed why there should be ANY misunderstanding at all--- beyond:

A) Circular reasoning (the bible itself leads to the understanding of the bible)
B) Those who have been visited the Holy Spirit have "proper" understanding

To my mind, any assertion that some have "proper" understanding and some do not is devisive at best.... and the very basis of Gnosticism, which the winning side in the formation of modern "Christianity" hypocritically declared heretical.

Are you saying that if everyone had "proper" understanding, Christianity (or ANY religion, for that matter) would be universal?

I believe that human beings are born atheists and the concepts of religion and God are taught.
If the myriad human religions that we know of never existed, and IF today's humans chose to concoct a religion not based on any previous concept of "God", I suspect that this religion would differ greatly from those described in our current history. Perhaps it would be no more than a common sense moral code that would echo the purported teachings of Jesus and others... I would NOT expect such a religion to include: a terrible vengeful Mosaic God, or concepts of original sin, salvation, atonement, miracles, etc.

What I find funny are those that challenge God's sovreignty all the time!
You that challenge God's authority, do you not swat away an annoying bug when it tickles your neck? Do you think to yourself "Oh no , I am destroying a living being?" or are you satisfied when that bug is squashed and your irritant is no more?
God created all things. He gives you but a short time to acknowledge Him. He gave you a holy image of Him in the person of Jesus Christ. Was it for nothing that Jesus died? Was it for nothing that Jesus wept knowing that the full force of the Great FlySwatter was about to befall Him?
I kid you not, I tremble before God in prayer as He reveals His nature to me. I mean physically tremble! Thank God for Jesus through whom all men may be saved!

((beyond time and spacee)))...'when [Bible] is understood correctly" ? which means exactly what? YOUr interpretation, Calvinist's, protestants' catholiks, methodists, ? whose interpretation

seeing you seem to know, give us a little lesson about how Bible should be understood 'correctly'?

beware though. you just may get challenged a bit!

The very fact that the Bible must only be understood "correctly" means God has condemned the 'stupid' and preordained an elite (assuming He is responsible for how 'smart' a person is).

Which leads back to the original question of how a man can be judged guilty if God didn't give him the mental faculties to "correctly interpret" the Bible.

The very fact that the Bible must only be understood "correctly" means God has condemned the 'stupid' and preordained an elite (assuming He is responsible for how 'smart' a person is).

Which leads back to the original question of how a man can be judged guilty if God didn't give him the mental faculties to "correctly interpret" the Bible.

Actually it doesnt matter whether one perceives that they have correctly understood it or not. If it produces internal debate about the small matter of "To be or not to be" then it has succeeded in its purpose!
Again I say, lean not to your own understanding!

peace

c20

The very fact that the Bible must only be understood "correctly" means God has condemned the 'stupid' and preordained an elite (assuming He is responsible for how 'smart' a person is).

Which leads back to the original question of how a man can be judged guilty if God didn't give him the mental faculties to "correctly interpret" the Bible.

dang! ... you distilled my post down to one sentence. :o

:D

Actually it doesnt matter whether one perceives that they have correctly understood it or not. If it produces internal debate about the small matter of "To be or not to be" then it has succeeded in its purpose!
Again I say, lean not to your own understanding!

peace

c20

I don't know if you are trying to be funny or.. :bugeye:

If the "Word of God" produces doubt and not certainty, how is one to be judged guilty for that which they controlled not?

EDIT: In a nutshell, if that inherent uncertainty serves to distance God and man in lieu, man cannot be guilty.

God calls man "Not Guilty" through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Jesus Christ is no "lord." He's a false god. He did not die for anyone's sins. He's a fake and a phony. Jesus was the antichrist.

God calls man "Not Guilty" through Jesus Christ Our Lord.
nicoman: jesua saved no one. you just another stupid lost soul.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Lets look at the story of pharaoh:

God hardened Pharaohs heart that is made him stubbornly reject the request of Moses to free the Jews from Egypt. But as we see from the scriptures below Pharaoh rejected the request before God hardened his heart. The hardening of Pharaohs heart was for a purpose. It was so that he would continue to resist Moses to an illogical extent so that all the great plagues and miracles that happened during the exodus could be made to happen. Thereby making it clear to the world that it was God freeing the people not Moses or Pharaoh or the people themselves.



Exodus 8

28So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me."
29Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the LORD, that the swarms of flies may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD."
30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the LORD. 31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

Can you see that it was Pharaoh that initially hardened his heart. Pharaoh was in total rebellion against the will of God.


Exodus 9

8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

Now we see it is at this point in the story that God hardens pharaohs heart. He did this to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.

You see the clay already exists before the potter decides to use one lump of clay to make a vessel of wrath or a vessel of grace.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

God is still just?
God is still love?
God is still good?
God is still merciful?
God is still beautiful?
God is still righteous
God is still impartial?
In order for you to answer these questions in accordance with the Bible, you must first take a point of view where you have faith in your own stupidity, evil, ugliness, and other vices. First thing you say to yourself is that god knows better than you; the rest comes easy. This tames pride; but it is also a sure way to weakness.
Also, if you really look, those who are shown as unfavored by god in the bible really do have some bad deeds mentioned. You may look at the story of Kain and Abel and ask why Abel was favored; the answer is there.

Adstar, you only proved his point and effectively answered nothing..

1Dude

What are your thoughts of what i put down?

All Praise The Ancient of Days

nicoman: jesua saved no one. you just another stupid lost soul.

I'm glad thats not what my spirit tells me! How dark it must be for you nicoman! Where is the hope in your particular belief that Jesus is nothing? Who is your God nicoman? Yourself? Boy what a dissapointent God must be to you!

I guess, for me, this seems to come down to man’s freewill vs. God’s sovereignty. On the surface these two ideas seem to be diametrically opposed to each other. They seem to collide. But, perhaps there is a way in which both of these can simultaneously exist in each one of us. Is it possible that the two are actually woven together in harmony like different colored threads in a giant tapestry? Perhaps they are each separate and distinct and yet also woven together to create a new whole. What do you think?

Thank you rtt7 and Adstar! I will consider your comments further!

Ken

Again I say, lean not to your own understanding!

Man, I hate that line.

Tell me, how can you lean on anything but your own understanding? If you come up with something yourself, that's your own understanding at work, right? If you read something someone else has written and decide to believe it, that is still a decision made based on your understanding of what someone else wrote. Even if you surrender entirely and decide to put your faith in the Bible or a philosophy someone else espoused, you are still making that decision based on your own understanding of what you should do, which was based on experience.

Ken,

I like way you think and I feel you are heading in a possitive direction.
So much of what is decribled in the Bible requires unconventional thought.
Why Christ chose to die on the Cross says it all. If we realy want to understand The God of the Bible we need to be very open minded.
Christ popularity was not neccissarily based on what he said but by the many mircle's he performed. The works exceeded the word's.
The fact we see planes in the sky exceedes the debates on if man can fly.
To Understand Christ you need to seek more that just plain old philosophy.

Chirst teaches us what it mean's to be God, that is to be able to bend all the rules including Death.

Simple philosophy is not enough when trying to make sence of God.
Philosophy is one small part of Gods Power.

To preach love your neighbour is one thing, to preach love your enemy is another.
To love your enemy is behond gerneral logic, but it does makes sence when you understand that their are no enemies, just opportunities to make the impossible possible through divine aid.

If God could describe his essence to us this would mean we are equal to him in mental power.

Is this what we want God to do? Share with us His Divine essence?

If so then what hope have we got if we can't even forgive God for making a free world full or Good and Bad.


Keep an open mind if you want to understand the Essence of God. Narrow-mindedness helps no one.

Regard's,
Harry.

1Dude

Truly I tell you, there is no free will. But because man ate from the symbolic tree of knowledge he has become aware of "Me", and identifies himself with his body. In reality, we are not held responsible for what we do, but because we think that "I am doing this", our illusion of free will seems to be punishing us. There is only God, nothing else. Later you will see that there is only me, nothing else, then you will realize God.

There is no good or bad. An asteroid which falls upon earth is not good or bad, but we call it bad, when millions of people die. We are not aware of Gods thinking, and he does not think personally, he sees the entire reality at once, and makes no difference between, so called, good or bad.

Just relax and sit back, stop doing things, stop your doubting, stop your motion. Forget about "Me", and the puppet which you think is "You" will do its own work, through you. For there is no "I", there is only God, and if he is "torturing" someone, he is "torturing" himself.

Man, I hate that line.

Tell me, how can you lean on anything but your own understanding? If you come up with something yourself, that's your own understanding at work, right? If you read something someone else has written and decide to believe it, that is still a decision made based on your understanding of what someone else wrote. Even if you surrender entirely and decide to put your faith in the Bible or a philosophy someone else espoused, you are still making that decision based on your own understanding of what you should do, which was based on experience.

I give you an example.
When Peter stepped out of the boat, he did so completely against all that he understood. In fact the moment he did step out, his reasoning and logic ( his own understanding) came into play and he stopped believing in the one who was asking him to join him on the water and so immediately began to sink. He had lost faith because he had lent to his own understanding. Jesus took Peter's hand knowing Peter's nature and knowing his weakness and loving everything about him and in Jesus Peter had faith and was saved.

When I say "Lean not to your own understanding", I am really saying "Faith requires you to put all of your logic behind you because faith is not based on the facts of this world or your particular understanding of them."

I am asked to prove my God exists all the time but if to demonstrate that my God exists, I were to go to the tap and pour you a glass of water because you were thirsty, you would just say "But this is a glass of water! This proves nothing!"
If you cannot see my love for you I cannot show you any further that my God exists. This is not to say that God will not show you however since all things are possible for God.

peace

c20

Also, if you really look, those who are shown as unfavored by god in the bible really do have some bad deeds mentioned. You may look at the story of Kain and Abel and ask why Abel was favored; the answer is there.

Yeah, Cain offered fruit instead of a dead cow. You make a great point.. :bugeye:

Yeah, Cain offered fruit instead of a dead cow. You make a great point.. :bugeye:

Lol - it wasnt what was offered it was the spirit it was offered in.

It's your birthday SnakeLord and you have two brothers. One brother you are particulary close to because you share the same outlook on life, the other brother you love ( because he is your brother) but you dont think he has done himself any favours by some of the choices he has made despite the fact that he is rich and outwardly seems to be doing very well. The brother you are close to always seems content with his lot and he makes sensible choices despite being poor. The other brother brings shame to your parents because he does terrible things that only you and they know about. But it's your birthday and both brothers visit you. The brother you seem more close to gives you a small gift, it didnt cost much but you know he is poor and it is just what you always wanted. That brother has taken time with little resources to find the 'perfect gift' for you.
The other brother who is rich just stuffs some cash in an envelope and gives it you saying "There you go mate - more than you deserve - but hey your my brother".
Your father then turns round and rebukes the rich brother saying "Come on, you could have at least gone into a shop and chosen a gift! Anyone with money can just stuff money in an envelope!" Your mother agrees and gives the rich brother 'one of her looks'.
The rich brother becomes angry and says "But look at what my poor brother has given him, its a crappy *insert favorite small gift here* - my gift is worth ten thousand of those!"
Your father says "That may be so but it's the thought that counts"
Your mother agrees.
The rich brother storms out pushing past the poor brother on the way out.
Which brother pleased your parents? Whose gift actually cost more? What should the rich brother have done when your parents said what they said concerning his gift? Which gift pleased you most and why?

I guess, for me, this seems to come down to man’s freewill vs. God’s sovereignty. On the surface these two ideas seem to be diametrically opposed to each other. They seem to collide. But, perhaps there is a way in which both of these can simultaneously exist in each one of us. Is it possible that the two are actually woven together in harmony like different colored threads in a giant tapestry? Perhaps they are each separate and distinct and yet also woven together to create a new whole. What do you think?

Thank you rtt7 and Adstar! I will consider your comments further!

Ken

Hi Dude 1 :)

i put down some thoughts a while back for my friends i thought i might post it here for you. maybe it will add something to your search.

Lets look at the book of revelations. John was on the island of Patmos when God revealed the future to him, he saw the final judgment in process, now did he see a representation of what was to happen or was he actually transported through time to the final judgment and actually saw the final judgment in progress? You may be thinking what does it matter? Well if he was actually there at the final judgment and saw the great multitude standing before God then he would be looking at real people some of whom would not have been born until 100’s or maybe 1000’s of years after his lifetime. So he was looking at people who had not been born yet, (in his time) that had been born lived their lives believed or not believed, died and raised, which were being judged. He saw the angles dividing the multitudes and casting some into the lake of fire. So even before they were born it was known what choices they were going to make and therefore their ultimate destination.

It may seem to you that I am supporting the predestination view; well in a way I am and in another way I am not. Let me explain. If God knows the future to the detail that I have suggested above, than he knows what choices people will make during their lives even before they are born. So we still have free will it’s just that God already knows what choices we are going to make.

So to use an analogy The history of existence is like a real life documentary and God has got the tape and can F-Forward it and knows the outcome beforehand. The people who are in the documentary are free to say and do what they want and they say and do what they want. From that tape he has already written down in his book (the book of life) who he has selected for his next production and who gets the chop.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

Hi Dude 1 :)

From that tape he has already written down in his book (the book of life) who he has selected for his next production and who gets the chop.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

Survival of the fittest in other words ;)

Heres the tricky part though and it is in God's great wisdom that he makes his selection.

It is the least who are the greatest and it is the greatest who are the least.

Round and around and around we go! Who is the humblest? Does anyone know?

Praise be to God through Jesus Christ Our Lord!

Amen

Adstar:

Thank You! That does help! Freewill and Predestination then can exist together in reality because of God's foreknowledge. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). That perspective does help me to fit the pieces together. It also provides a framework from which to view many other things that are difficult to understand.

Thanks,
Ken

c20H25n3o: Although your analogy is highly flawed, I'll respond to it anyway.

One brother you are particulary close to because you share the same outlook on life, the other brother you love ( because he is your brother) but you dont think he has done himself any favours by some of the choices he has made despite the fact that he is rich and outwardly seems to be doing very well.

This part is irrelevant. It goes even more against god if he has made such a distinction by this point. Further to which, the rich brother would have been Abel who dealt with livestock as opposed to apples and potatoes.

The brother you are close to always seems content with his lot and he makes sensible choices despite being poor. The other brother brings shame to your parents because he does terrible things that only you and they know about.

This part is irrelevant because there is no justification for any of it. It does not say Cain did terrible things, it merely says he tilled the soil whereas Abel was a shepherd.

Your father then turns round and rebukes the rich brother saying "Come on, you could have at least gone into a shop and chosen a gift! Anyone with money can just stuff money in an envelope!" Your mother agrees and gives the rich brother 'one of her looks'.

I would consider them awful parents, and although I might prefer one specific gift - the same gratitude and love would be showed to both of my brothers. Maybe it's different wherever you come from, but in my country we have manners.

Besides, this is also flawed, in that both brothers actually brought what they produced. Abel who worked with animals bought a dead animal, while Cain who worked with fruit, bought fruit.

If one of my brothers who worked for a car company brought me a car, and the other brother who worked for a toy shop bought me a tamagotchi, I could not "discipline" one of them for bringing me something I didn't like- or if I did, it would be plain as day that I'm a complete asshole.

The rich brother storms out pushing past the poor brother on the way out.
Which brother pleased your parents?

god has parents? Obviously you'd mean who pleased me, and I could only say "both", in that they'd both brought me their produce, neither had forgotten to do so, and even if I preferred one present over the other, it would not in any way mean anger shown at one of them. If I did that, I'd be an asshole.

Whose gift actually cost more?

Neither.

What should the rich brother have done when your parents said what they said concerning his gift?

"Shit, you're bad parents". Or failing that, he could just say what they said: "It's the thought that counts".

Which gift pleased you most and why?

We all have particular tastes, and as such one would be our favourite present. This doesn't mean we show anger to the other brother because his present is inferior, unless of course we're mannerless assholes.

I give you an example.
When Peter stepped out of the boat, he did so completely against all that he understood. In fact the moment he did step out, his reasoning and logic ( his own understanding) came into play and he stopped believing in the one who was asking him to join him on the water and so immediately began to sink. He had lost faith because he had lent to his own understanding. Jesus took Peter's hand knowing Peter's nature and knowing his weakness and loving everything about him and in Jesus Peter had faith and was saved.

When I say "Lean not to your own understanding", I am really saying "Faith requires you to put all of your logic behind you because faith is not based on the facts of this world or your particular understanding of them."

You're not getting what I'm saying.

Even when Peter decided to let go of what his intuition told him, that was still a product of his own understanding of what he should do. In effect, his understanding told him to let reason and logic go -- that was still his own decision, based on experience and what was going on around him. To completely let go of one's understanding is to be dead.

Can you make any decision without your own mind? No. Even if that mind is telling to you "let go," as it were, it is still your mind telling you this, not someone else's. You must first decide to believe someone else; no one can make this decision for you, not even God. (Free will, right?)

What you are describing is someone whose own understanding of a situation led him to question reality as he knew it -- not to let go of his own understanding. Apart from a brain transplant or death, I see no way that someone can have any thought that was not first produced or received via one's own mind and understanding.

Avatar: try reading "the book of Job" in bible
*************
M*W: What good would come from reading the lies in Job? When will you people ever learn that there is no truth in the Bible?
Really?

So should I murder, commit adultery, steal?

Is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", False?

Surely it's OK to "Love thy neighbor as thyself"?

You can't really mean no truth do you?

c20H25n3o: Although your analogy is highly flawed, I'll respond to it anyway.



This part is irrelevant. It goes even more against god if he has made such a distinction by this point. Further to which, the rich brother would have been Abel who dealt with livestock as opposed to apples and potatoes.



This part is irrelevant because there is no justification for any of it. It does not say Cain did terrible things, it merely says he tilled the soil whereas Abel was a shepherd.



I would consider them awful parents, and although I might prefer one specific gift - the same gratitude and love would be showed to both of my brothers. Maybe it's different wherever you come from, but in my country we have manners.

Besides, this is also flawed, in that both brothers actually brought what they produced. Abel who worked with animals bought a dead animal, while Cain who worked with fruit, bought fruit.

If one of my brothers who worked for a car company brought me a car, and the other brother who worked for a toy shop bought me a tamagotchi, I could not "discipline" one of them for bringing me something I didn't like- or if I did, it would be plain as day that I'm a complete asshole.



god has parents? Obviously you'd mean who pleased me, and I could only say "both", in that they'd both brought me their produce, neither had forgotten to do so, and even if I preferred one present over the other, it would not in any way mean anger shown at one of them. If I did that, I'd be an asshole.



Neither.



"Shit, you're bad parents". Or failing that, he could just say what they said: "It's the thought that counts".



We all have particular tastes, and as such one would be our favourite present. This doesn't mean we show anger to the other brother because his present is inferior, unless of course we're mannerless assholes.

Now you reveal yourself! I am talking in nothing but terms of the 'spirit of giving' to make a point about the attitude of the 'giver' whereas you just want to prove that Christianity is a load of bunkem and that God doesn't have parents - what rubbish! You do not even pay attention to the text!
Are you truly saying that the thought and trouble taken by the brother you were 'closer' too didnt mean any more to you than the wayward selfish brother who just stuck what he had in his pocket in an envelope?
How wicked of you that you did not appreciate the extra effort shown by that brother that you were closer too!
Stop trying to 'prove' me wrong and pay attention! You might learn something!

This is a sincere cry for an answer!Ken, the answer is simple, there is no God.

It’s just a story used to keep people in line. Much like the Santa Clause story is used to keep children in line. There’s no difference really. Only in the case of children they’re smart enough to know that they better get something real (aka a present at x-mass) and for some reason adults seem satisfied to get their present after they’re dead :)

kind of funny huh?

So in short, if you can deal with it, you’ll find that once you accept there is no afterlife (much as that sucks) you’ll be rewarded with a different sort of “mental” freedom and never have to worry about “Why is this God creature so crazy?” questions again. But, if living out of the matrix is to much, then just know the Bible is quite a bit faulty and maybe Buddhism will be more enlightening for you?

Cheers
MII

Ken, the answer is simple, there is no God.

It’s just a story used to keep people in line. Much like the Santa Clause story is used to keep children in line. There’s no difference really. Only in the case of children they’re smart enough to know that they better get something real (aka a present at x-mass) and for some reason adults seem satisfied to get their present after they’re dead :)

kind of funny huh?

So in short, if you can deal with it, you’ll find that once you accept there is no afterlife (much as that sucks) you’ll be rewarded with a different sort of “mental” freedom and never have to worry about “Why is this God creature so crazy?” questions again. But, if living out of the matrix is to much, then just know the Bible is quite a bit faulty and maybe Buddhism will be more enlightening for you?

Cheers
MII

What rubbish!

Sarcastic Voice :

Yes Ken, come on m8, accept you are gonna die and be eaten by worms. This acceptance of basic facts is much more satisfying once you are free of all purpose. Enjoy your short life and never question anything. Try Buddhism - with Buddhism you wont have to worry about a thing! Just die peacefully and hope people remember you when your gone. Theres a good boy Ken! Roll over now, thats it Ken, just a short while left and then it will all be over and you will be no more.

Non Sarcastic Voice:

The road to hell is wide and everyone travels it. Be a little different Ken - step out on the water m8 ;)

peace

c20

Adstar:

Thank You! That does help! Freewill and Predestination then can exist together in reality because of God's foreknowledge. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). That perspective does help me to fit the pieces together. It also provides a framework from which to view many other things that are difficult to understand.

Thanks,
Ken

Yes Ken that word foreknew is so crucial to understanding predestination :) Its is a great joy to me that i have been given the opportunity to help you on the Way. :D

All Praise the Ancient Of Days

Yes Ken, come on m8, accept you are gonna die and be eaten by worms. This acceptance of basic facts is much more satisfying once you are free of all purpose.Whether you like it or not, one day you will be dead and hopefully before such a time you can reach some state of acceptance – and also hopefully it’s a long ways off. If belief in Gods is the only peace you can reach in knowing that you will no longer be, well I see nothing wrong with that – Although that may not be the reason for how they arose, I’m certain that is after all why afterlife myths endure.

Anyway, atheists are free-of-all-purpose? Why do you say that? Are you suggesting that of the 1 billion people on the planet that don’t believe in Gods - they are ALL purposeless? Many Chinese and Japanese friends of mine are atheists – are they purposeless?

c20H25N3o, I would say this is a huge misconception – wouldn’t you? Personally, I think one becomes more appreciative and life is purposeful once you realize there’s only this one go at it and there are no Gods or afterlife’s.

That’s just my opinion, I’d wager many converted atheists feel the same.

c20H25N3o, could you answer a few questions for me?
1) In what way is your life more “purposeful” by having a belief in God?
2) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Shinto Gods?
3) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Buddha?
4) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in the Allah?

5) In your opinion is there no way to have a purposeful and meaningful life without the beliefs in your particular God?

6) Can an atheist have a purposeful life in your opinion?

Try Buddhism - with Buddhism you wont have to worry about a thing! Just die peacefully and hope people remember you when your gone. Theres a good boy Ken! Roll over now, thats it Ken, just a short while left and then it will all be over and you will be no more. c20H25N3o, Are you suggesting that Buddhism is not a worth system of belief?

What about Shinto?
What about Hinduism?
What about Islam?

The road to hell is wide and everyone travels it. Be a little different Ken - step out on the water m8 ;) I think this is the very question that Ken was getting at? Is your answer to “step out on the water mate?” Are you saying that Ken should not question that passage and should instead put his brain on hold and just accept the incongruities of the Bible?

IS that the manner inwhich you gain "purpose" in life c20H25N3o??

Lysergic acid diethylamide??

Whether you like it or not, one day you will be dead and hopefully before such a time you can reach some state of acceptance – and also hopefully it’s a long ways off. If belief in Gods is the only peace you can reach in knowing that you will no longer be, well I see nothing wrong with that – Although that may not be the reason for how they arose, I’m certain that is after all why afterlife myths endure.


You call it myth, I call it truth. Belief and Unbelief. Light and Dark. Whatever!


Anyway, atheists are free-of-all-purpose? Why do you say that? Are you suggesting that of the 1 billion people on the planet that don’t believe in Gods - they are ALL purposeless? Many Chinese and Japanese friends of mine are atheists – are they purposeless?

c20H25N3o, I would say this is a huge misconception – wouldn’t you? Personally, I think one becomes more appreciative and life is purposeful once you realize there’s only this one go at it and there are no Gods or afterlife’s.

That’s just my opinion, I’d wager many converted atheists feel the same.


According to you I live 80 years and become worm food. I dont disagree with that. What I do disagree with is that my life and all that I have endured and suffered as a man is to be tossed away in the earth never to be 'harvested' by that which created me. The worms can have my body, but my soul belongs to God.
I do not live to myself but for the pleasure of that which created me. This is my purpose. My purpose is to serve my creator because He has purpose for me. I do not have purpose in and of myself.

c20H25N3o, could you answer a few questions for me?
1) In what way is your life more “purposeful” by having a belief in God?

- I live to serve others and not myself because I am living to please God.

2) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Shinto Gods?

- There are many 'gods' but there is only 'The One God' through whom all things came into existence. I'll speak to the Author directly therefore. I know nothing about Shinto Gods.

3) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Buddha?

- I am sure Buddha spoke much wisdom, but like I said I will speak to the Author of Buddha - I find that gives my life more meaning.

4) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in the Allah?

- I have the gift of tongues. Allah is a name that edifies me as well as the many other of God's names that are revelaed to me by way of the Spirit.

5) In your opinion is there no way to have a purposeful and meaningful life without the beliefs in your particular God?

To suggest that He is 'my particular God' would be to suggest that He belongs to me exclusively. Rather the pot belongs to the potter not the other way round. My life was puposeless and meaningless without Jesus just to answer your question.

6) Can an atheist have a purposeful life in your opinion?

If God gives them purpose then yes of course!

c20H25N3o, Are you suggesting that Buddhism is not a worth system of belief?


What about Shinto?
What about Hinduism?
What about Islam?

None of the above deal so completely with my questions as the cross of Jesus. The cross of Jesus convicts me to believe in a loving God. I am already well fed - I have no need to seek crumbs from others tables.

I think this is the very question that Ken was getting at? Is your answer to “step out on the water mate?” Are you saying that Ken should not question that passage and should instead put his brain on hold and just accept the incongruities of the Bible?

No - I would say to Ken "Challenge everything with an open mind just as I have already done"


IS that the manner inwhich you gain "purpose" in life c20H25N3o??

Lysergic acid diethylamide??


nope. I have quite clearly stated that I have purpose in life through God's will for my life.
As for do I find purpose in a molecule? Well the molecule has its own purpose and that too was set by God. There are some serious forces at play in the sustaination of that molecules structure therefore wouldnt you agree that it too must have purpose? But purpose in and of itself?

I have the gift of tongues. Allah is a name that edifies me as well as the many other of God's names that are revelaed to me by way of the Spirit. I understand better now. I suppose had I spoken in tongues I would be a believer as well.

But let me ask you two things concerning this.
1) Does your speech sound garbled when you talk in tongues (glossolalia). What I am asking is can everyone understand the words you are saying? Can you?

2) Does the church you regularly attend (if any) accept your gift as really from God? Can I ask what church if any?

Lastly, as you probably know I am an atheist and perhaps skeptical by nature. My purpose in life has been self created; as I think is everyone’s. I’m an academic by choice and try to serve my fellow man via medical research. Which I spend a great deal of my time on for not so much money.

But anyway,

I’m not going to say there is no God – as that of course can no more be proven then saying there is no Buddha or no Shinto Gods; any one or which or all may be real.

I have a close friend that also has “the gift of tongues” (glossolalia) and is quite convinced God is speaking through him. He lives in the States so I don’t see him so much now.

But, I’d just say this: Glossolalia is a real phenomenon and can occur when one is having something akin to a seizure (rapid firing of the neurons) near the speech center of the brain. If you’ve ever seen someone having a seizer you’ll notice that their muscles are twitching and they have little or no control over their movements. Sometimes this happens when a person is in a state of talking in tongues. The two are connected. And many times the churches that support such phenomena are also quite energized – this exciting time in the church can also contribute to initiating glossolalia. The leaders of the Greek cult of Apollo knew a certain number of people were naturally susceptible to having temporal lobe seizures and exploited this to the benefit of their religion.

The United Pentecostal Church have also learned to also exploit this phenomenon – much to their benefit as theirs is one of the most rapidly growing religious communities on the planet.

The sad thing is those in the know can and do use this to their advantage.

If some unknowing member in the church gets excited and has a temporal lobe seizure they will begin talking in gibberish. They have no idea why. One of the church leaders then stands up and begins to “interpret” the gibberish. Because the unwitting member has no other explanation they then believe God must have chosen them. Their life will forever take a different course. Their friends and family will also be moved – knowing this person is telling the truth (as the glossolalia itself is REALLY happening - - it is true). This then strengthens the congregation and thus the church grows. That is how some churches operates. Taking advantage of a persons ignorance to the phenomenon of Temporal Lobe Seizures and turning it into a Gift of Tongues from God.

I think churches that prey on the ignorant are really sick. And this is one of the trickiest for sure. Once caught in that deep it’s almost impossible to get out.

As for do I find purpose in a molecule? Well the molecule has its own purpose and that too was set by God. There are some serious forces at play in the sustaination of that molecules structure therefore wouldnt you agree that it too must have purpose? But purpose in and of itself?As C20H25N3O is the formula for Lysergic acid diethylamide I can assume you've taken Acid before???

I understand better now. I suppose had I spoken in tongues I would be a believer as well.

But let me ask you two things concerning this.
1) Does your speech sound garbled when you talk in tongues (glossolalia). What I am asking is can everyone understand the words you are saying? Can you?



No it does not sound garbled. It sounds as though it comes from a place that is Holy and pure. I sing in tongues and I hear angels. It edifies my soul because my soul hears The Word. I am a witness to the gift. I am not the gift. As for do others understand me - my wife knows The Word and hears the spirit of what I say. I often interpret the words in plain English as they are given to me. My children need no interpretation. They know The Word and obey Him and love Him. The Word is Life to them.


2) Does the church you regularly attend (if any) accept your gift as really from God? Can I ask what church if any?


I do not go to church but I have attended a Christian worship Group where many speak in tongues and many interpret. I was not considered to be 'special' because of my gift but rather 'blessed' as we all were/are.


Lastly, as you probably know I am an atheist and perhaps skeptical by nature. My purpose in life has been self created; as I think is everyone’s. I’m an academic by choice and try to serve my fellow man via medical research. Which I spend a great deal of my time on for not so much money.

But anyway,

I’m not going to say there is no God – as that of course can no more be proven then saying there is no Buddha or no Shinto Gods; any one or which or all may be real.

I have a close friend that also has “the gift of tongues” (glossolalia) and is quite convinced God is speaking through him. He lives in the States so I don’t see him so much now.

But, I’d just say this: Glossolalia is a real phenomenon and can occur when one is having something akin to a seizure (rapid firing of the neurons) near the speech center of the brain. If you’ve ever seen someone having a seizer you’ll notice that their muscles are twitching and they have little or no control over their movements. Sometimes this happens when a person is in a state of talking in tongues. The two are connected. And many times the churches that support such phenomena are also quite energized – this exciting time in the church can also contribute to initiating glossolalia. The leaders of the Greek cult of Apollo knew a certain number of people were naturally susceptible to having temporal lobe seizures and exploited this to the benefit of their religion.


I am a computer programmer by trade. I think if there was something wrong with my brain I would not be able to control my tongue/s and this would be very evident to my employer who would not appreciate it. This has nothing to do with a condition I am unable to control.


The United Pentecostal Church have also learned to also exploit this phenomenon – much to their benefit as theirs is one of the most rapidly growing religious communities on the planet.

The sad thing is those in the know can and do use this to their advantage.


I know nothing of this church and am therefore unable to comment. Sorry.


If some unknowing member in the church gets excited and has a temporal lobe seizure they will begin talking in gibberish. They have no idea why. One of the church leaders then stands up and begins to “interpret” the gibberish. Because the unwitting member has no other explanation they then believe God must have chosen them. Their life will forever take a different course. Their friends and family will also be moved – knowing this person is telling the truth (as the glossolalia itself is REALLY happening - - it is true). This then strengthens the congregation and thus the church grows. That is how some churches operates. Taking advantage of a persons ignorance to the phenomenon of Temporal Lobe Seizures and turning it into a Gift of Tongues from God.


As I have explained above, this has nothing to do with something that is not within the prophet's control. The prophet chooses to speak with tongues or not. He has choice. I may or may not speak in tongues at my will. Nothing is forced upon me.


I think churches that prey on the ignorant are really sick. And this is one of the trickiest for sure. Once caught in that deep it’s almost impossible to get out.


Churches that 'prey' on the ignorant for financial gain or otherwise are hypocrites just like those Pharisees of Jesus day. Jesus too called them a 'brood of vipers'.


As C20H25N3O is the formula for Lysergic acid diethylamide I can assume you've taken Acid before???

You assume correctly.

Ok, I've been away from here for a couple of days, and have a lot to respond to. First off, I'd like to address Duendy. How is one to understand the Bible correctly? By understanding what it is and what it was written for.

What is the Bible? It is a collection of different writings, letters, etc. Bible comes from the Greek Biblos, or Bibloi, meaning books. It is, in essence, a compendium of different works written by a number of different authors over a period of more than 1000 years. The author of each book, or letter has his own reasons for writing what he did, but each writing was collected for the merit that each contained. The OT, compiled by the Jews, and is their Scriptures, was a lesson concerning the relationship between God and humans. More particularly, it concerned human behavior, and, overall, deigned to show that when bad actions were performed, bad things happened, and when good things were performed, good things happened. The old Jewish mindset was that when good things happened to you, you were blessed, and this was because you were a good person. Likewise, if bad things happened to you it is because you were cursed, and this being because you had done something wrong. Basically, it boils down to what the Jews called the "Covenant." As long as the Jews kept the covenant (didn't perform bad actions), then things went well for them. However, if the Jews didn't keep the covenant (performed bad actions), things went badly for them. Even the prophetic books reflected this mentality, as they prophesied one who would never break the coventant in the eyes of God, and therefore the Jews would be freed from their bondages.

The NT, written within 100 years of Christ's birth, concerned Christ and His teachings (some would contend that Christ's teachings were different from Paul's.... I'll leave that debate for another time). Part of the NT is to show how Christ fulfilled the prophesies.... and was a messiah of a different kind than what the Jews expected (they expected a militant, or political messiah). However, unlike the OT, the NT focused much more on the spiritual than the physical. The Blessed were no long seen as those who receive riches, wealth, etc... Rather, the blessings that the good would receive pertained to the spiritual. Also, the curses that the wicked received also pertained to the spiritual. Jesus was indicated as being the one who would never break the covenant with God (and forged a new covenant of perfection through Him).

Basically speaking, the NT was a fulfillment of the OT. The OT thought remained, but under a different light, a spiritual light, rather than the physical. Therefore, while we should recognize the value and wisdom of the OT writers, we should not take such considerations as the destructions of whole cities as actions from God, since that viewpoint came out of the OT mindset that the wicked would be cursed (presumably from God).

How should the Bible be understood? As a book pertaining to good living, to wise living, to good actions, rather than bad actions. It should be understood under the thought of the time in which it was being written. It should be understood in correlation with other holy writings. It should NOT be considered as a science book. It should NOT be considered as a history book. It should NOT be considered as a book of governance, but rather a book of guidance. Understand what is written in light of why it was written, who wrote it, why it was considered worthwhile and that it is a book about the real humanity. It is the bloodiest of all holy books, because it does not hide who and what humans are. It is bloody for the sake of learning, for the sake of showing what lows humans can come to. Christ is meant to be the great hope, the great high that humans can achieve.

Now I will address -=T=- ,

I'm sorry that you interpreted what I said in such a manner, since that is not how it was meant to be received at all. I did not say, at all, that it is through the bible alone that one may enter into the state of heavenm, and so you interpretation that "(a) I'm special. I'm saved. I understand spiritual things now because I have become spiritual. You don't understand. You're not saved! You're not spiritual like me." is completely off-base, since that is entirely not the attitude I hold. Just because one does not understand, does not mean that he/she is not spiritual, or is not saved, or anything like that. This is entirely obvious since there are MANY men and women who have been called saints in history who were not highly intelligent individuals, and who probably didn't understand what was written in the Bible completely and entirely. However, they did understand how to live good and decent lives, not for themselves, but in service of others. They knew enough to take Christ as an example to their own lives. I CERTAINLY do not hold that if one does not understand, or if one is not "inspired" that he/she is not saved. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Athiest, you may, by all means, enter into the state of heaven for eternity. I wrote what I did simply to say that if one understands, or reads it in the wrong light, then it CAN lead to conflict with one's self and with others. YES, it happens. People read "If man lies with man, put to death" (in Deuteronomy I believe), and they think, "it says it so we should do it." Yeah, it happens, but that is because they don't understand it properly. The example passage was written under the Levitical Law, which has its roots in Hamurabi's Law (spelling?). That law said "and Eye for and Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth." Which simply means that the crime should be equal to the punishment, nothing more nothing less. Therefore, what is simply being stated here is that the action in question is serious, serious enough to be ranked with killing. This is probably based in the conception of the "wasting of the seed" (which, I think, they considered a form of killing), since there is no such prescription given for two women "lying" together. If one understands the context properly, they won't say "it says to kill gays, so let's go do it." ESPECIALLY, if they consider it under the light of the NT, in which we have Jesus as our example, who preached kindness, and forgiving (let's not forget the lesson of "he who has not sinned, cast the first stone").

By saying "Undoubtedly, texts of any kind can lead the unwitting and short of sight into conflict with himself and others," I meant exactly that, when one reads the Bible improperly, one is probably going to come to wrong conclusions about how to act in life. I, in no way, meant that in order to be saved one must be able to read the Bible properly.

This also addresses SouthStar's comment. There is no predestination here. Those who might be considered "stupid" most certainly have every ability to enter into the state of heaven, just as those who might be considered "intelligent" most certainly have every ability to enter into the state of hell. It is all a matter of choice. I simply meant to bring the negative comments about the Bible into the light of wrong interpretation. When one misunderstands what is written, obviously they're probably going to believe some pretty scary stuff. Just because those who say they believe in the Bible are a little "off the wall," so to speak, doesn't mean ALL people who believe in the Bible are, nor that the Bible itself is bad, or destructive. It is simply a matter of how it is understood, which is why I stand against personal interpretation, and stand by an authoritative interpretation that is brought about by long hours of study by many theologians who cross reference the texts with other sacred writings, and historical documents as well as the other texts within the work itself. Such interpretation will be much closer to what was actually meant, and designed to convey, than any individual interpretation. Sure, individual interpretation can bring new insight, but that new insight should be put under close scrutiny in order to see if it isn't a fallacious one.

So, C20H25N3O, I'm still waiting for an example of someone who managed to rely on something other than his own understanding.

As for drugs, I much prefer shrooms to acid. From your posts, it appears you are actually believing the shit you see while tripping. I must admit I'm jealous. I've never met Jesus or spoken in tongues, though I did meet David Bowie once.

to make a point about the attitude of the 'giver'

Yes, but there were no differing 'attitudes of the givers'. They both gave to god that which they produced. One was livestock, the other fruit. There is no difference. It's not like Cain gave all the rotten fruit, unless you are going to claim otherwise.

you just want to prove that Christianity is a load of bunkem and that God doesn't have parents - what rubbish!

christianity is "bunkem", and I don't need to prove it. I have faith and know it's "bunkem" :bugeye:

As for the parent's part, you put parents into the analogy - which detracted from the actual point and post. If you're going to use an analogy, it has to run alongside and in conjunction with the actual story at hand, and not add loads of irrelevancies.

You do not even pay attention to the text!

My job is to pay attention to text. I can assure you I did.

Are you truly saying that the thought and trouble taken by the brother you were 'closer' too didnt mean any more to you than the wayward selfish brother who just stuck what he had in his pocket in an envelope?

A) Why say you're "closer" to one. Does god play favourites?

B) Yes I am truly saying that they are both equal, because as I explained - in my country we have manners, we care about our siblings/children, and we don't make such vile distinctions. They wouldn't even have to give me anything, birthday or not, and I'd love them just the same. Ok, I'm not god and so do not understand the need to demand gifts - but where I come from, we don't see it as important.

How wicked of you that you did not appreciate the extra effort shown by that brother that you were closer too!

A) Why "closer"? It's irrelevant and has no bearing on the actual biblical text.

B) I love them the same regardless to if they even bring me anything. I'd hate to see your household.

Stop trying to 'prove' me wrong and pay attention!

Prove you wrong? 2/3's of your analogy was flawed, the rest was stupid.

You might learn something!

From you, it's very unlikely. I'd rather hand myself in for a session at the local scientology center.