A Gesture of Reconciliation

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Oct 28, 2009.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Four white students forced black staff members to eat stew into which they had urinated and badgered the staffers to eat until they vomited the dirty food. They then had the audacity to video the event and post it on the internet. It caused an uproar but what is more disturbing than the incident itself is the action of the first black vice chancellor of the university who decided to reinstate the four students to the university instead of expelling them.

    He called it 'a gesture of reconciliation'.

    How far do we take forgiveness?

    First black south africans had to forgive those who had committed crimes against them in Tutu's 'truth and reconciliation', a situation where murderers only had to tell their crimes and say they were sorry and walk away scott free. Perhaps with such a historic move it is not surprising that the chancellor would forgive these students for such an outrageous act. A nasty precedence if you ask me.

    I think black south africans are being asked to forgive at the expense of their dignity. What say you? Is it ethical to forgive under any circumstance? Where does forgiveness end and justice begin?

    Personally I find the following comments of the chancellor very disturbing:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8325000/8325443.stm

    Commentary:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1026/p06s07-woaf.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Of course, why wouldn't it be? But its the person wronged against who should have the option to forgive.

    Why would forgiveness be unjust?
     
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  5. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    the only way i would be forced into eating urine infested stew is if i was hog tied and it poured down my throat.
     
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  7. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    I think they should have been suspended from this school. I dont care what color you are, you dont feed people urine laced anything.

    But they have criminal charges against them, so they havent walked away scot free. Well. Not yet.
     
  8. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    How do you force someone to eat something nasty like that?... I can't relate to that..I'd rather get beat up than sipping on someone else's urine. Did they use professional torture methods?

    How much did the students' parents pay the Uni to be invited back? I wonder..
    It's a pity that losers like that are allowed to study

    I'd let it up to the staff members that were bullied whether they want to forgive those brats, or not. But I'd certainly not let them proceed with their studies at the Uni..they can go search for an other Uni.
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    So help me something

    This is the tough part:

    Professor Jansen's clear belief is that the university as an institution is to blame for creating an environment where racism persists, and it must share some of the responsibility for righting those wrongs.

    (Allen)

    There is merit to the proposition, but everything else is a matter of degrees. To what degree is the institution culpable? How does this change the assessment of the behavior? If race was not a factor whatsoever, what if any sanction would such behavior merit? Is the situation really so dire that the community should need to go through this?

    Because these perpetrators are known. They are aware of who they are and that people will recognize them. And they must continue their studies while being held as the face of local infamy. Likewise, the community must necessarily find ways of tolerating their existence. Vice Chancellor Jansen is deliberately choosing to put the community through this discussion at this time. Expelling the students, sweeping them out of sight, would allow for a quieter resolution.

    And the stakes are very, very high.

    My only real question comes because I am not South African. This seems a dramatic maneuver. Jansen is asking a lot of everyone. Is the general atmosphere really so troubled that this discussion must happen now? Given the potential outcomes, Jansen is taking a pretty big risk.

    So yes, there is merit to the proposition, but that merit is contextual, and defined by circumstance. If circumstance does not in some way reasonably demand such a gamble, it will fail.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Allen, Karen. "South Africa's 'racist video' row". Today. BBC Radio 4, London. October 26, 2009. News.BBC.co.uk. October 28, 2009. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8325000/8325443.stm
     
  10. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    Well, you almost had me going along. Except I googled for more information and found this counter-point which is hard to ignore because its also a very believable perspective:

    http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/common...students-shows-we-are-just-good-old-snobs/#at

    "On the one hand you have students from good Christian families who pay the university tens of thousands of rands for the good education their children are getting. On the other hand you have insignificant cleaners who cost the university some money in wages. It’s a no brainer."

    Which goes on with:

    "Say the four students come back to the reopened Reitz residence and a few students – that may or may not be related to the cleaners – decide to beat them up, for reconciliation purposes of course. What will the university do, pardon them as well “because of a considered view that the decision will advance transformation and reconciliation on a deeply divided campus”. A precedent has been set, that all racial transgressions will be forgiven to “advance transformation and reconciliation”. There is no going back for the university now."

    If the 4 students were expelled from this university, it would present a no-tolerance position. I would guess these offenders were around 5 years old when apartheid ended, so how long before you go after the south african klan with a zero tolerance attitude?
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Stupidity. Should have shot them.

    Still, as Sam points out, maybe forgiveness trumps that.
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    For victims to forgive is one thing, for an institution to forgive an act by not demanding a price for the crime is an injustice. They basically received a slap on the wrist and the workers moved to a different part of the university ground. I think they should have been expelled. I think this is a forced show of forgiveness.
     
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Where have you heard that there will be criminal charges? As far as I know it is only a human rights organization that is attempting to have charges brought up against them.

    The students were suspended and then the chancellor decided to forgive and reinstate them.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well race aside the students should have been expelled. To take the blame off of the students and place it on the university is a disingenuous argument on his part. I mean he could have taken it one step further and said it was the state of south africa that was at fault or the history that is at fault. There is no proof whatsoever that in a predominantly white school that these students will find their return uncomfortable in the least, if this were the case I am sure they would have transferred elsewhere, the fact that the four wish to finish their studies at the same institution shows they feel no intimidation in the environment. Its not that I believe that they will behave in the same way or that others would behave in the same way, its mostly the message it sends to black students and staff members, the message is that their dignity is expendable in the name of 'reconciliation'. The message is that the act was not so bad and didn't need a sterner response. Its like the Iron Lady of Bosnia, Biljana Plavsic, who was convicted, given an 11 year sentence and then freed after serving only two thirds of her sentence. The United Nations War Crimes Tribunal said Plavsic had participated in "a crime of the utmost gravity" and "no sentence can fully reflect the horror of what occurred or the terrible impact on thousands of victims." Well that statement has now been watered down by her release. How is justice served by a reduction of the sentence? If indeed it was 'a crime of the utmost gravity'.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
  15. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Its in your csmonitor link, its in the link I posted and its here:
    http://www.afrol.com/articles/34546

    "The four white students who face charges of crimen injuria, appeared in court on Monday, and their case was postponed to February next year."

    The charges the Uni dropped had to do with school rules/by-laws.
    The charges the human rights org are talking about are rights violations (usually civil proceedings).
     
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I missed that. What I understood is that a humanitarian group has been moving for criminal charges. And they should face criminal charges but their assess should also be booted out of university.
     
  17. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    It could be that the human rights group feels more severe charges should be added to the existing charges.

    I agree that these 4 should not have been allowed to return.

    I also wonder about the whole climate at the university, it appears that the workers did not report the incident (or it was ignored) and until the video appeared on youtube, there was no action.

    So, what was the environment at the university, to cause the workers to keep silent about this cruelty?
     
  18. WillNever Valued Senior Member

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    2,595
    Guys... forgiveness is for the sake of the person doing the forgiving, not the person being forgived. It's what lets you move on in life. Bearing an eternal grudge is no way to live.

    The people who did that stuff will have to forgive themselves. Haven't you guys ever read the Crucible? There is no higher or more authoritative judge of your own conscience than yourself. I support the chancellor's decision to re admit them.
     
  19. WillNever Valued Senior Member

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    Lucy, no one deserves to have their life ruined for the 80 more years they will be alive over something like this, as being expelled from a university can surely do. Excessive punishments have never helped anybody.
     
  20. kira Valued Senior Member

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    I think, not only the students should be expelled, they should also be jailed, or at least be held in mental hospital. People who force other people to eat/drink their urine are either criminal or mentally ill. I do not want to meet this kind of people casually in university, they are threat to society.
     
  21. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    The people who did this, did it (allegedly) to protest integration at the school, and their method was to inflict violence against persons who had no responsibility for the integration at the schools.

    Its like attacking the janitor at the white house because you dont like what the president is doing.

    Senseless cruelty.

    "The case follows racist video, which was initially aimed at protesting against the university's integration policy, which surfaced earlier this year showing four students from the Reitz hostel degrading five cleaners."

    Link posted previously.
     
  22. kira Valued Senior Member

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    Also, I think the chancellor should be removed from his position. He doesn't seem to even have some common sense. I feel very sorry for the janitors.
     
  23. WillNever Valued Senior Member

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    Allegedly? Alleged by whom? "Allegations" are not adequate reasons to ruin people's lives for the 80 more years they will be live by expelling them from school.

    Even if it were true, which it very well may be, that is a case of the punishment not fitting the crime. This is one event that these black people were not permanently injured over. I'm quite sure they will get over it. People do worse things in frat houses. You guys are letting mock outrage and hatred overtake your decision making.
     

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