The odds where against me I suppose, but God was with me! :)

Whew!!!!
I found out today that I am once again to be blessed with a son. This is my sixth son...and I couldn't be happier!!! Just wanted to share my joy.

You have my commiserations. I feel very sad for you.

Taken,

I share in the joy of the new life you are carrying.

What's with the "Whew!!!"...???

Is that "Whew!!!" as in: what a relief it's a boy and not a girl?

Definately Cupid. My husband was kinda hopeing for a girl of course, but I am relieved it is a boy. Girls are a lot to worry about. You have to worry about all your children, but in this day and age there are so many "predators" and girls seem so vulnerable. I don't know if my nerves could survive it. I can buy frilly dresses and bows when all my grandkids start rolling in, in a few years.

Cris, no need to commiserate. I have had the education, the career, wealth...but I can honestly say it is my children that give me cause to wake up every day. Many times in my life they have been my reason to persist. They are the greatest gift we can have in this life. The Bible says "happy is he who has his quiver full of them", and I couldn't agree more. My dad had two sons and one daughter, and between the three of us he has 9 grandsons.... his legacy and blessing from God. :O)

People like you are contributing to the population problem on this planet.:D

Ahhh...but so was Einstiens mom.
What if one of my sons were to discover the cure for HIV?

You would be right, if I could not support or feed them, but God has given me the means to go with the children.

Truth be told, if you consider all the waste on this planet and all the wealth stored up in material toys and possesions that are of little use, there is more than enough abundance on this planet to support it's population. Unfortunatley the minority that holds the wealth don't want to forgo useless wants to provide humanitys basic needs.

For instance....I have two decent dependable vehicles...but lord forbid I should buy a porsche while a child in my nieghborhood or on my planet was starving due to famine or lack of income...it makes no sense to me. To me there is a difference between living comfortably and keeping up appearences just to say I can.

Yeah, essentials should be free for everyone (such as food, clothes, housing, water). In the perfect world...

Congratulatons! What's his name?

Thank You. Probably Kyle.....but it isn't set in stone yet.

Kyle sounds good.

Taken,

***My husband was kinda hopeing for a girl of course, but I am relieved it is a boy. Girls are a lot to worry about. You have to worry about all your children, but in this day and age there are so many "predators" and girls seem so vulnerable. I don't know if my nerves could survive it.***

Huh? If girls are the potential victims of predators, then who do you think the potential "predators" are?

***I can buy frilly dresses and bows when all my grandkids start rolling in, in a few years.***

That's how you see girls? Is that how you see yourself? As a dress-up doll? I am curious about what you plan on telling your sons about girls so that girls don't seem so vulnerable to them?

Six children will be a handful by the sounds of it.
You can start a football team if you have just a few more.
Dang...you sure you arent part rabbit?

Anyway once again congratulations.

Cheers
RazZ:D

Congrats.

Howabout naming him asdf

Cupid...I go out of my way to ensure that my sons will not be predators. Due to haveing suffered victimization myself as a young woman it is of the utmost importance to me that my sons respect and honor women. If they see in their mother unconditional love, trust, security, and a strong mind and good will...then they will. I think it is important that sons are raised to regard women as a gift, not as a submisive.
I was raised by 5 brothers, my mom had her own agenda and if not for something with in them that made them nuturers I would have been for all purposes abandond and left to my own devices. Teen age boys would have much better ways to occupy their time then to love and protect a small child with all of their heart and resources. I love them and know that they were a gift from God in my lifetime. Haveing had a far less then perfect mother and no father of their own for an example they made it a priority to "save" me and make sure I would be healthy, loved, and strong.

I do not view girls a frilly creatures. The comment about dresses was that yes I see all the clothes and ribbons and natural I think what a wonderfull thing it would be to have a girl. But I think due to my upbringing and own life experiences I am far better suited to bring up good sons. I have doubts in my ability to be able to give a daughter what she will need to be strong and well adjusted for the world that awaits her.

If by Gods grace I can sow just a small seed of the goodness and love that my brothers had in my sons then their daughters will be brought up with all the esteem and love and guidance they will ever need.

Football...probably not, they seem completely taken in with baseball and music. :)

Elbaz...Aaron is actually a good possibility, I like that name. But Elbaz seems a bit much for a young child. :)

*Originally posted by Teg
People like you are contributing to the population problem on this planet.*

What population problem?
There are plenty of people on the earth.
Do you think we're running out of people?

*Originally posted by Taken
Truth be told, if you consider all the waste on this planet and all the wealth stored up in material toys and possesions that are of little use, there is more than enough abundance on this planet to support it's population. Unfortunatley the minority that holds the wealth don't want to forgo useless wants to provide humanitys basic needs.*

You haven't been anywhere near a calculator for a while have you?
You could take all the billionaires on the planet, and take all of their money and split it up evenly, hand it out monthly over ten years, and you'd be lucky to see a cheque bigger than $100.

*I have two decent dependable vehicles...but lord forbid I should buy a porsche while a child in my nieghborhood or on my planet was starving due to famine or lack of income*

It's a sin to own a Porsche?
What Bible is that from?
Besides, I notice that you have TWO vehicles.
One wasn't enough, like it is for most folks?

*Haveing had a far less then perfect mother and no father of their own for an example they made it a priority to "save" me and make sure I would be healthy, loved, and strong.*

You probably need to deal with issues similar to tiassa's.
You do need to forgive your mom's less-than-perfection and your father's absence, as well as your victimizer.
You don't actually want to live with that pain bothering you your whole life, not to mention interfering with you bringing up your own kids.

Thank you for your concern, but I have already dealt with those issues. I love my mother dearly and I begrudge her nothing. I didn't have to walk in her shoes so I will not place judgement on her. As for my father, his absence was not of his own will. You may need to know some facts before you diagnose people.

God took my anger from me long ago when I realized it destroyed no one but me. It does not hinder me raising my children, if anything I am a better parent for it. Strength comes in our weakest moments. What have you ever learned when things were easy?
So am I to assume there are no skeletons in your familys closet, your mother and father never failed or made mistakes while doing the best they thought they could?

Actually one car would be plenty if I lived with in walking distance of the store and the pediatricians. I unfortunatly being of yankee heritage do not have the skills to run a farm so other than a summer vegetable garden I must buy food at the grocers. :O)

We aren't just talking money...but all the waste in the world...wasted resources, wasted food supplys, wasted opportunity, wasted knowledge.

Go away tony.

*Originally posted by Taken
God took my anger from me long ago when I realized it destroyed no one but me.*

What about that third and fourth generation thing?
You may be anger-free but how about your kids?

But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
(Deuteronomy 7:8, KJV).

If you ended up with a curse on you because of your father, God will honor the oath he swore unto your father.
Do you think it might be worth dealing with such curses?

*What have you ever learned when things were easy?*

The main thing I learned when things were easy is that I prefer not to learn things the hard way all the time.

*So am I to assume there are no skeletons in your familys closet, your mother and father never failed or made mistakes while doing the best they thought they could?*

No, assuming that would be inaccurate.
However, I have dealt with the major portion of the issues arising from "skeletons," by reading the Bible, specifically related to the visitation unto the third and fourth generations.
Curses have a big part in that issue, generational curses, curses from others and a person's own curses have big effect on things.
Most people are completely clueless about such things.

Take tiassa, if he's ever cursed himself with a statement like, "I'll never be one of those rotten Christians," then it is easy to see how he would have difficulty in believing God even if he wanted to.
He would actually have to counter the curse, and bless himself to begin to believe in God.

*Actually one car would be plenty if I lived with in walking distance of the store and the pediatricians. I unfortunatly being of yankee heritage do not have the skills to run a farm so other than a summer vegetable garden I must buy food at the grocers.*

Not that the car thing is a big deal, but how can you have two cars when some people do not have enough food?
BTW, are you saying that being a yankee means lacking in skills?

*We aren't just talking money...but all the waste in the world...wasted resources, wasted food supplys, wasted opportunity, wasted knowledge. *

So, how many people do you know who are hoarding knowledge, and causing the rest of the world to suffer as a result?

Tony God isn't in the bussiness of witchcraft as far as I know. My children are not cursed nor can they be since they are under the protection of God.
You are with out a doubt one of the most retarded people I have ever run across. Keep your idiotic assesments of peoples personal lives like tiassa to yourself. Tiassas life and pain are first off none of your bussiness and second off it really is NOT cool to go trudgeing in peoples vulnerabilitys to cause them added pain.
You are like a 6 year old little boy on the playground teasing others because you feel so incompitent yourself. You are full of hate, evil, and judgement...and many many Catholics and Pagans will touch God before you ever lay eyes on Him. It is painfully obviouse to everyone who reads your posts that you are not of God nor are you under the annointing of the Holy Spirit. You may be about to cross a line that even you can't cross back over in time. :)

What if one of my sons were to discover the cure for HIV?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then they would contribute even more to the population problem on this planet.
:D :D :D :rolleyes:

Good luck to you & yours,just joking above!
:) :)

Taken,

***I have doubts in my ability to be able to give a daughter what she will need to be strong and well adjusted for the world that awaits her.

If by Gods grace I can sow just a small seed of the goodness and love that my brothers had in my sons then their daughters will be brought up with all the esteem and love and guidance they will ever need.***

Forgive me but, why would you, as a woman, believe that you have a better chance of showing sons the goodness and love of certain men in your life than you have of showing your own strength (which you say you have) to daughters?

Could it be a matter that the protectiveness of your brothers, coupled with the later victimization, only served you to further a notion of yourself as a member of a weaker, more vulnerable sex?

One of the reasons I bring this up is because I have many sons and one daughter. Growing up, the sons had a natural tendency to over-protect my daughter. As wonderful as the boys' intentions were, I did not allow it for obvious reasons.

*Originally posted by Taken
God isn't in the bussiness of witchcraft as far as I know.*

Who said he was?

*My children are not cursed nor can they be since they are under the protection of God.*

So, not one single Christian on the face of the planet has ever backslidden or had any problems with depression, illness, poverty, etc?
Let's not forget that when you came here you were preaching the gospel of poverty, except for you, of course.
Your children may well be cursed with poverty for the simple reason that you are preaching poverty and they have faith for what they hear.
They may also be cursed with a few other things if you've been getting pissed off at me and taking it out on them.

*You are with out a doubt one of the most retarded people I have ever run across.*

So?

*Keep your idiotic assesments of peoples personal lives like tiassa to yourself.*

Fat chance, Satan.
You may have Taken completely under your control, but you don't stand a chance with me.

*Tiassas life and pain are first off none of your bussiness and second off it really is NOT cool to go trudgeing in peoples vulnerabilitys to cause them added pain.*

What is all that to you anyway?

*You are like a 6 year old little boy on the playground teasing others because you feel so incompitent yourself.*

Your six-year-olds are like that?
I'm not surprised.

*You are full of hate, evil, and judgement...and many many Catholics and Pagans will touch God before you ever lay eyes on Him.*

No Catholics or Pagans will do anything other than see the lake of fire.
Only Christians will see God.

*It is painfully obviouse to everyone who reads your posts that you are not of God nor are you under the annointing of the Holy Spirit.*

Check again.

*What if one of my sons were to discover the cure for HIV? *

It'll never happen, it's been done.

... and with his stripes we are healed.
(Isaiah 53:5, KJV).

You're wasting your time preaching the gospel of science, Taken.
Jesus didn't die to validate your useless science textbooks.

*Originally posted by blonde_cupid
Could it be a matter that the protectiveness of your brothers, coupled with the later victimization, only served you to further a notion of yourself as a member of a weaker, more vulnerable sex?*

Taken wouldn't want to admit that.
Besides, aren't you doing the same thing with Taken, that you were castigating me for?
What's up with that?

BC I do understand clearly what your point is, and will admit I am at a bit of a loss to explain my view.

Christian or not...our lives and the experiences we have in them do very much effect who we are and how we deal with and view things.
Haveing had 5 fathers as opposed to any mother figure....One can assume my knowledge of unconditional love between male and female and vica-versa is more natural to me. My brothers loved me and did the best they could, but being a girl there were still times when a female presence would have in fact made the details of my growing up much easier. I have no experience there, no role to follow or go back on for enlightenment.
For instance my mothers ability or lack there of did me a lot of good as opposed to harm. I often say she did not teach me to be a good mother but she certainly made me one. I could have been much worse off. Had I been closer to my mom, like my older sisters who were out of the house by the time I came along...I may have been a lot more like them. I love them and they do the best with what they had to go on, but they are selfish, unurturing, would stab their own children in the back for a dollar...and have. They never wanted to care for their children, got rid of them on to someone else at all opportunity...and to this day are cold, miserable, greedy, men chaseing people. Seeing them as they were and growing to understand the unselfish sacrifice my brothers, the oldest imparticular, made for me...taught me a lot about nuture and unconditional love. What even more made that kind of careing a valid part of me was that my oldest brother, as badly as he was treated by my mother, and haveing gave up haveing a life of his own to love me, continually said "It doesn't matter, she is your mother." He not only showed me true love he taught me to love her no matter how imperfect she or anyone was, it didnt matter. To this day he stays near to my mom and is there at every need to care for her. That kind of strength and compassion in a person is rare.

If I had a girl, I would love her as much as any of my children, and do everything I could to do right by her. But God has chosen not to give me that test, and tor me that is what it would be...a test. One that I openly admit, Im not sure I am ready for. If I were to fail, it is not me who will suffer, but her.


Tony...go play with your demons and leave us humans alone. You regard yourself far to highly...you are a poster on a message board...you hardly have a place in my real world life.

Tony1, you bang the catholics on their beliefs but you have their exact same ideology,

ie when you said 'those useless science textbooks, jesus didnt die for them' Now ofcoarse he didnt die for them, but I know a lot of people who would.

Those science books built your computer through which you are talking to us know. If you really hate those books you may as well save your self any distress, by picking up your computer and throwing it up against the wall. That may make you feel better.

And Taken is right, as I've said before your masking your own insecurities with religion because thats your only refuge. Respond how ever you like. Most people have you on their ignore list and could care less, and although I dont agree with them, I blame you.

Get a life man, instead of bashing everyone else's cause it only comes back to bite you in the ass.

*Originally posted by Taken
I am at a bit of a loss to explain my view.*

Listening to satan will go a long way to explain it.

*...my mother...*

All that and you have no curses in your life?
I'd be thinking differently, and furthermore, doing something to break the curses.

*You regard yourself far to highly...you are a poster on a message board...you hardly have a place in my real world life. *

I regard myself as a poster on a message board.
How is that "too highly?"

Besides, why would you be thinking that I have a place in your real world life, anyway?
I'm in the perfect situation.
I can speak into your life, and you are guaranteed that it is nothing personal, since I don't know you.

*Originally posted by Elbaz
Tony1, you bang the catholics on their beliefs but you have their exact same ideology,*

Which is...?

*If you really hate those books you may as well save your self any distress, by picking up your computer and throwing it up against the wall.*

That's just it, I don't hate them.
They have lots of numbers in them.

*Most people have you on their ignore list and could care less, and although I dont agree with them, I blame you.*

You blame me for not agreeing with them, or for not caring less, what?

Well my dear Tony it WAS you who made the assertion that my disgust with you would effect how I treat my children. Brain cells lacking? How much "weed" did you smoke before your god made you rich? :)

As for my mother being human...isn't yours? How many men did she lust after and have in sin before you were concieved? Matter of fact how many women have you defiled out of wedlock in your life? Or are you a virgin...that might explain your anal retentiveness and oral fixation. LOL

Congratulations Taken! I wish you all the best with your six sons. What an effort to give birth to so many. I admire you, Super- Mum ! :D

tony1,

***...aren't you doing the same thing with Taken, that you were castigating me for?
What's up with that?***

What are you talking about?

BC he has somehow in his deranged mind made some connection to you asking me a very open and simple question of my reasoning with his slandering and rebuking everything anyone says. Go figure...I do not get how his mind works either.

*Originally posted by Taken
Well my dear Tony it WAS you who made the assertion that my disgust with you would effect how I treat my children. Brain cells lacking?*

For all I know, maybe that is one of the curses.
You should really try to get yourself under control, Taken.

It's obvious that things are starting to touch painful areas in your life.
Trying to hide that by ranting at me won't help.

Father, I ask that you fill Taken with the peace that passes all understanding, and open the eyes of her understanding to see what is causing her all this pain.
Give her the wisdom to know what to do.
In Jesus' name, Amen.

*As for my mother being human...isn't yours?*

Sure.
The point is that you still have some issues with your mother, and you're playing "good little Christian."
It still hurts, and you haven't taken that pain to God to get rid of it.
You need to actually forgive your mother, not just say you did.

*Originally posted by Bebelina
:D*

Where have you been?
I missed you, and the "gospel" of yourself.

*Originally posted by blonde_cupid
What are you talking about?*

You were chewing me out for getting into tiassa's personal life, and now you're doing exactly the same with Taken.
What's up with that?

Aww, thanks for missing me. I have been away visiting my outer space family. :p

And by what knowledge or assumption do you know if I have resentment toward my mother? I was unable to get past a lot of it. But as I testified God took it from me upon my sincear and non-ceasing request to do so. do you doubt God was able? :O) You think YOUR intervention is nesecary for it to actually happen? Either way thank you for the prayer...can't get too many of those. :O)

But as for pain...making light of what tiassa or anyone for that matter has had to endure or speaking harshly to them is WRONG. Your brand of sympathy leaves a lot to be desired...like a revolver. If you have had an easier row to hoe, I assure you it was nothing more than by grace, perhaps God didn't see you as strong enough to "handle" it and over come it and He did think tiassa was. :O).....the old Nanny Nanny Boo Boo thing is getting really old really fast!

God says we shall not be tempted beyond what we can bear....and He shall always provide a window of escape. God was willing to let the devil submit Job to such a difficult test "because" the Bible says God had "utmost" confidence that His servant Job among all men could with stand the devils worst. Perhaps God has more faith in tiassa's ability to overcome the world than He does yours or mine. You haven't walked in tiassas shoes, for that you should thank God...because no matter how difficult it gets...it could always be worse.

*Originally posted by Taken
And by what knowledge or assumption do you know if I have resentment toward my mother?*

Only that the level of violence in your posts is increasing.

*I was unable to get past a lot of it. But as I testified God took it from me upon my sincear and non-ceasing request to do so. do you doubt God was able? You think YOUR intervention is nesecary for it to actually happen? Either way thank you for the prayer...can't get too many of those. *

God is able.
He can also see that you can't get past it.
He can also see that for him to do it wouldn't be as useful for you as for me to do it, so he tells me.

See, you have been very strong in your own strength up til now.
That's why you can't get past a lot of it.
So now, you are pissed off with me.
You can practice forgiving me.
If you can do that for a complete stranger, you might be able to do it for your mom.

You have every right to be angry with me, as you have so carefully built your case.
However, you limit your own blessing by being angry with me.
See, when you are accusing me, one of the brethren, you are the accuser of the brethren.
You know what happens to the accuser of the brethren.

You don't want that.
So, forgive me.
And after you've practiced that, you will find it much easier to forgive your mom.
Not only that, I'll break the curse for you if you forgive.

*But as for pain...making light of what tiassa or anyone for that matter has had to endure or speaking harshly to them is WRONG.*

It is, which is why I haven't been making light of tiassa's situation.

*Your brand of sympathy leaves a lot to be desired...like a revolver.*

I know the feeling, but it doen't matter.
The accuser of the brethren is standing over your shoulder saying, "See, look what he did now, look what he said now, are you going to take that?"
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

*If you have had an easier row to hoe, I assure you it was nothing more than by grace, perhaps God didn't see you as strong enough to "handle" it and over come it and He did think tiassa was.*

That's more like.
I was weaker, and for sure tiassa is much stronger.
I'd have been a coffin case if I'd been trying to live life like tiassa for much longer than I did.

*the old Nanny Nanny Boo Boo thing is getting really old really fast!*

?

Bebelina:

Your outer space family?

I don't mean to insult you by accident here, but does that mean you were in a place with locks?
Or does that mean you were traveling around away from your computer?

BTW, I thought that with a break you would be completely refreshed and ready to preach yourself again.

Thank You Bebelina.

No locks, much travelling away from the computer though, but it was weary so I´m tired, I will preach...just you wait and see...;)

Behold, I´m the Female Messiah...and so on...ah, you already know the routine...:D

Your welcome, Taken. :)

That's better, back to "normal."

Andromedan normal, that is.

BTW, is that still it, "I'm the Female Messiah?"
With all this time passed, I thought you might have added something like, "I can do things."

Sure, I can add that. I can do things, can´t you? :p

Who are these brethren of which you speak?

You have every right to be angry with me, as you have so carefully built your case.

<b>Taken</b> didn't build her case of anger against you, tony1. You were the one that painstakingly maneuvered her into the situation.


However, you limit your own blessing by being angry with me.

Because of the words you used against her, you sit yourself back and proceed to tell her that if she doesn't forgive you, she is the one at fault. When, in fact, it is you who are at fault, but not in your mind. You set her up, she fell for it, therefore she is at fault and must gain forgiveness from you.


See, when you are accusing me, one of the brethren, you are the accuser of the brethren.
You know what happens to the accuser of the brethren.

The patriarchal standpoint of tony1 shines through in these statements. Naturally, he says, the law and order of God is patriarchal in structure. So what? In the same instance that tony1 feels justified in setting up Taken, tony1 also feels justified in setting himself up as one of the brethren, becoming an elite. Whether or not one does know what happens to the brethren is unclear by his following statements:

You don't want that.
So, forgive me.
And after you've practiced that, you will find it much easier to forgive your mom.
Not only that, I'll break the curse for you if you forgive.

But tony1 knows that he can capitalize on Taken's belief system and get her to admit to him that she forgives him. This raises the power in his mind and subjugates Taken at the same time. Then tony1 sets himself up as the proxy-saviour for Taken by saying he'd be able to break the curse for her. Not literally, of course. But he would be the means by which she would be able to return to the good graces of God.

Relax, Taken, the only thornbushes you've gotten entangled in have been the ones tony1 has purposely strewn along your path.

Thanks!

prag

Oh paaaaleeease everyone have another drink on Tony!

You do not need my forgiveness you need Gods...you are like vomit in His mouth. You are vile and detestible and more than ever an idiot. I do not have a problem with those who do not know better...they are accountable for what they know...but to parade around doing what you do IN the name of Jesus is detestible and I have a GOD GIVEN right to hold you in the utmost contempt.

oops did Jesus knock over some tables in GODS HOUSE...shame shame...no need of such violence :O)
Will I be cold and heartless to the flock NO but will I fight to the death to drive the wolf away from them..YES I WILL. Get behind me.

You are not my bretheren...you may be a fellow human being in the physical sense but you are a dark spirit Tony...full of lies, deciet and self serving doctrine. You spew hate and contempt from your mouth because you are full of hate. You have no hope no love no God in your empty shell, just the spirit of a wicked deciever. Dead man walking.

James 3:4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.
James 3:5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
James 3:7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.
James 3:8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
James 3:10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
James 3:11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water?
James 3:12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
James 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
James 3:14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.
James 3:15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.
James 3:16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.
James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.
James 3:18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

*Originally posted by Bebelina
Sure, I can add that. I can do things, can´t you?*

That's more like it.
However, it's still a little weak.
Your "messiahship" needs a little something to sound realistic.

*Originally posted by pragmathen
You were the one that painstakingly maneuvered her into the situation.*

Not "I confess."
Not "I confess, he did it."
But "I confess, you made her do it."

You're quite the comedian, prag.

*When, in fact, it is you who are at fault*

Give it a rest.
That's what happens when you come in 10 minutes before the end of a movie, too.

*Relax, Taken*

Taken, you're in worse shape than you ever imagined.
You've had an atheist tell you that you're fine.
You've had a pagan tell you that you're fine.
Now, you've got someone who turned his back on God deliberately telling you to relax.

You are in deep doo-doo, Taken.

*Originally posted by Taken
you are a dark spirit Tony...full of lies, deciet and self serving doctrine.*

And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
(John 10:20, KJV).

You started out deceived, then you went to mocking, now you're cursing, soon you'll be reaping.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
(Galatians 6:7, KJV).

*James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men*

Did you read what you quoted or are you trying to pile hot coals on my head?

*James 3:15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.*

Did you read that before you quoted it?
You preach the earthly doctrine of saving the whales, the natural doctrine of seeing doctors and the demonic doctrine of cursing God's blessing.

Look out.

<b>Taken</b>,

I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for your belief system. Of all the Christians that have posted (that I'm aware of), you appear to truly respect what others wish to believe, without resorting to hellfire and damnation posts. Before I became a pagan and a heathen and an atheist (according to tony1), I was very religious and I strived to be tolerant of others as I've seen in some of your posts.

I admire your strength in your beliefs. Though that may sound trite coming from me, it's the truth.

Instead of taking the well-trod path of describing what will happen to people unless they turn to God, you have struck out and just described the good things that happen to them regardless. tony1, ever the follower of his own ego, plows forward on the beaten path of hellfire and damnation--thinking that unbelievers will be turned towards the goodness of God more by fear than by love.

Now I could be a pagan, heathen, or an atheist, but it doesn't mean that disagreeing with the likes of tony1 means I'm inherently evil. Or that you are. Or that I'm unable to offer some good in this world.

The deep doo-doo that tony1 refers to is what's encased between his ears.

*Originally posted by pragmathen
I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for your belief system.*

Can you even tell what it is?

*the good things that happen to them regardless.*

Good, regardless?
You are living in dreamland.
BTW, when you first decided to trash God, you were a ball of energy, now you seem to have fizzled into a kind of a humdrum blah thing.
What happened?

PS, Taken, you've got another heathen telling you that you're doing just fine.
The warning bells should be going off full tilt by now.

***You were chewing me out for getting into tiassa's personal life, and now you're doing exactly the same with Taken.
What's up with that?***

tony1,

First, I did not chew you out for getting into tiassa's personal life. Tiassa and Taken both put some personal life situations on the table and a number of us entered into discussion about them, including me.

Second, what I did do was suggest that you try to be more Christ-like by taking a more balanced, compassionate approach with people. Why? Because your current approach comes across as negative and exclusionary and it is counter-productive to your stated evangelical goal.

Tony these people are not acknowledging me. They do not even know me. They are acknowledging what they see in me...a Godly Spirit, the love of Jesus: the light of the world and hope of man.
I am no different than any of them...I struggle the same struggles and trudge through the same difficult world. I have a hope given freely by grace. Haveing seen through the life and death of Jesus what the perfect calling and potential of man is.

As I have reminded you before...it was ONLY the Self-righteouse Sunday go to meeting crowd that found Jesus offensive.

A new life! that's great, even though its six times for you.

Let it be the last, think of the risk that you undertake every time you bear children, God may be great, however if you continue in this path, you be killing yourself!.;)

It's not that I share in your believes, however since your convictions are of this sort, I share in your beliefs for such a special occassion as the birth of a child!.:)

BTW. I also like the name Kyle :D

*Originally posted by blonde_cupid
a number of us entered into discussion about them, including me. *

and me.

*Second, what I did do was suggest that you try to be more Christ-like by taking a more balanced, compassionate approach with people. Why? Because your current approach comes across as negative and exclusionary and it is counter-productive to your stated evangelical goal. *

Maybe the "generation of vipers" approach is what God has given me to work with.
I'm not sure how many people you get to deal with who are on their last leg, but I get a few.

*Originally posted by Taken
Tony these people are not acknowledging me.
...
They are acknowledging what they see in me...a Godly Spirit, the love of Jesus: the light of the world and hope of man. *

No, they're not.
All they see is someone who thinks like them, confused and out of sorts.
Notice that "these" people said nothing about you being Christlike, they said they agreed with your beliefs, which happen to be haywire.

*I am no different than any of them*

That's pretty much my point.
No one can tell you apart from an atheist, pagan or heathen.

*As I have reminded you before...it was ONLY the Self-righteouse Sunday go to meeting crowd that found Jesus offensive.*

Nah.
It was the dedicated wicked who found Jesus offensive, among them the other thief on the cross, who didn't seem to be sitting in a pew.

Your so dellusional, you dont even let anyone here try to offer some good news as a baby boy about to be born?. Who knows Tony, this baby could be your infamous jesus reborn? LOL, unlikely however who the hell are you to say it wouldn't be?.

Your no-one Tony1 you come here with your dellusions, cut downs, smears of sarcasm, and a real negative attitude. Heck If I was still a christian, I would as surely, as your pinple in your ass would be, seriously thinking about becoming an athiest, or a :eek: CATHOLIC!

Anyhow keep up the good work, we need people like you so they can realize how silly their religions really are!!.:D

These folks have made it more than clear that they do not share my "beliefs". If your reading ability was up to standard you would know that. Their remarks in my favor have been towards my attitude and approach.







Matt 9:10 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.
3 Matt 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
4 Matt 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Matt 21:32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.
7 Mark 2:15 And it *happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many of them, and they were following Him.
8 Mark 2:16 When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, "Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?"



Chew on that.

How long do you think it'll be till tony burns in hell?

I'm guessing post #6666:D
.........

*Originally posted by Godless
Your so dellusional, you dont even let anyone here try to offer some good news as a baby boy about to be born?*

Who's stopping you?

*Heck If I was still a christian, I would as surely, as your pinple in your ass would be, seriously thinking about becoming an athiest, or a CATHOLIC! *

DUHHHH!
I hate to break the news to you, Julio, but that IS what you did.

*Anyhow keep up the good work, we need people like you so they can realize how silly their religions really are!!*

And we need people like you to be our straight men AND to show people what happens if you backslide to the point of atheism.
Face it, you're the poster boy for hopelessness, nothing personal.

*Originally posted by Taken
Their remarks in my favor have been towards my attitude and approach.*

Except when they actually say "belief."
You'd have noticed that if you weren't so busy twisting around to pat yourself on the back.

*Chew on that.*

Is that, like, your denomination's way of saying "So there?"

*Originally posted by Elbaz
How long do you think it'll be till tony burns in hell?*

You probably meant 666.
Nobody burns in hell, so your question is meaningless.

"""*Chew on that.*

Is that, like, your denomination's way of saying "So there?" """

Is that your denominations way of saying you have no good argument against the FACTS?




As for those agreeing with my beliefs, they are Christians. And then it isn't agreement with heathens, as you like to call them,...it is agreement between brothers, of which the agreement of two or three is considered sufficient proof.

You could consider posting a fact once in a while just to see what I might say.

So far, I haven't seen any from you.

As for two or three agreeing, it is for things they ask from God, not just any old thing.
Besides, you and the two or three atheists, or pagans are agreeing on error, so that isn't helping you at all.

Why!! tony1, that's so true, I became an athiest because of people like you!!.:D

The bitter taste of religion tastes like no sugar in my coffee.

Quote Tony:"And we need people like you to be our straight men AND to show people what happens if you backslide to the point of atheism.
Face it, you're the poster boy for hopelessness, nothing personal.

Face it Tony! I don't have people here considering of putting me on their ignore list! I don't jump all over someone with smurks of sarcasm, and thump the bible almost every single post, I don't for that matter post quotes of authoritive figures, such as the most evil co-author of your precious bible!.

Ah! the mighty tony1, able to leap from post-post in a single minute, without really reading what anyone might have to say! able to fight demons, with a single word!, able to quote the bible in a single second!. Man I do really do feel sorry for you Tony1!, who knows god better than you? Yet you or anyone for that matter fail to explain what god really is?.

Taken took the time to kind of explain what god is in her own words, I liked her version, only cause I looked beyond her words, and placed a single word, for every time she used "god", that single word was "life". However life is not a supernatural phenomena, it is just existence and life to experience this existence.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
However life is not a supernatural phenomena, it is just existence and life to experience this existence.

If life is not supernatural, why can they not bring a dead body back to life, especially one that is in tact.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
However life is not a supernatural phenomena, it is just existence and life to experience this existence.

If life is not supernatural, why can they not bring a dead body back to life, especially one that is in tact.

Love

Jan Ardena.

It must be! :rolleyes:

Jan you dont make any sence in the above question? The reason why doctors can't bring back a life, is cause the life has perished!.

That however is not a reason to believe in the supernatural. Death has nothing to do with supernatural. Esp, tarrot cards, numerology, astrology, psychics, clairvoiance, heaven, hell, god, devil. This are what is meant about supernatural, above nature.

I also saw a post you asked how could we prove existence! What stupidity has been fallen you? In order to prove existence one would have to prove it from non-existence!. Are you non-existent?. the only way to be non-existent is to die!.

Have you held your breath yet?
Jumped off a building?

How then do you prove existence?

Please don't kill yourself questing for these answers!. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
Jan you don’t make any sense in the above question? The reason why doctors can't bring back a life, is cause the life has perished!.

Then the questions must be asked. What is life?
What is consciousness?
Why do we need to be conscious?
What happens to the consciousness after the dissolution of the body?
Why do we place so much value on life, if it is only a natural existence?

Death has nothing to do with supernatural.

I agree with you on that point, we know how to terminate life, very easily, but we don’t know how to bring a dead person to life.
So there must be something about life/consciousness, we don’t understand.

Esp, tarrot cards, numerology, astrology, psychics, clairvoiance, heaven, hell, god, devil. This are what is meant about supernatural, above nature.

I understand God to be truly supernatural, but the others are combinations of nature albeit gross or subtle.

I also saw a post you asked how could we prove existence! What stupidity has been fallen you? In order to prove existence one would have to prove it from non-existence!. Are you non-existent?. the only way to be non-existent is to die!.

I cannot remember asking proof for existence. I remember asking for proof that air exists, and more recently to prove that ‘you’ have a brain.
My point was, I know that they exist but through basic intelligence and manifestation, not through science.

How then do you prove existence?

I know I exist, just as I know God exists.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Quote Jan: "Then the questions must be asked. What is life?
What is consciousness?
Why do we need to be conscious?
What happens to the consciousness after the dissolution of the body?
Why do we place so much value on life, if it is only a natural existence?

Life is what we call existence of living things suchas animals, plants, etc. Dugh!;)

We don't need to be conscious, many species survive without consciousness, however humans developed, consciousness out of neccessity in order to compete with other humans. See the reference I once gave on a book called "The Origins of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes, however you dissmissed this and asked why I believe this author. Have you read the book yet?.

Consciousness parishes Jan. Sorry the facts are that we die, no continuation of life, after death exists. It is a 3000 year old wish, that we continue in another dimention, or other form of existence.

The reason we place so much value on life, is cause deep down, your consciousness knows, that we only have one life to live!.

The prove of brains, look at yourself in the mirror, see the person in front of you?. Does she have a brain? Are you conscious? do you possess intelect, or lack off?.

Which ever answer you come out with, it took a "brain" to think of these questions. Without one, you wouldn't exist!. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
Life is what we call existence of living things such as animals, plants, etc. Dugh!;)

Those are symptoms of what we call life. We know that something is alive because it has consciousness, but what is the origin of consciousness.

We don't need to be conscious, many species survive without consciousness….

Name one.

….humans developed, consciousness out of neccessity in order to compete with other humans.

If something has no consciousness, it is dead.
Are you saying that humans were dead and gradually developed consciousness out of necessity?

Consciousness perishes Jan. Sorry the facts are that we die, no continuation of life, after death exists.

Fact?
Then you should be able to offer proof.

It is a 3000 year old wish, that we continue in another dimention, or other form of existence.

3000 years old?
Are you a comedian?

The reason we place so much value on life, is cause deep down, your consciousness knows, that we only have one life to live!

So your consciousness must be separate from your body, if ‘it knows.’
That means it has its own nature, separate from the body. That must also mean deep down you are not your body. All you need to do now is understand what the nature of your consciousness is, that is what you don’t know consciously, but sub-consciously, deep down, you know. You say deep down your consciousness knows you have one life to live because it knows that this body is perishable and will die.
But consciousness doesn’t die, it can become polluted, degraded or forgetful of its true nature, but it doesn’t die.

The prove of brains, look at yourself in the mirror, see the person in front of you?. Does she have a brain? Are you conscious? do you possess intelect, or lack off?

Hey! I understand exactly what you are saying and I agree with you 100%, but that doesn’t offer physical proof of a brain, you have to use your intelligence whereby you deduce that you must have a brain.
It is in the same way I know that God exists.

Whichever answer you come out with, it took a "brain" to think of these questions. Without one, you wouldn't exist!

My point, entirely.
I rest my case.

Love

Jan Ardena.

The bible does not explain were consciousness comes from.

**We don't need to be conscious, many species survive without consciousness….

Name one.**

Insects, are not conscious, fish, other lower forms of life, such as
Fungie, etc..

**3000 years old?
Are you a comedian?**

I see you've never read Gilgamesh's Epic!. Or even know about it! typical. :rolleyes:

**So your consciousness must be separate from your body, if ‘it knows.’
That means it has its own nature, separate from the body. That must also mean deep down you are not your body. All you need to do now is understand what the nature of your consciousness is, that is what you don’t know consciously, but sub-consciously, deep down, you know. You say deep down your consciousness knows you have one life to live because it knows that this body is perishable and will die.
But consciousness doesn’t die, it can become polluted, degraded or forgetful of its true nature, but it doesn’t die.**

Nope your rationalizing!, your consciousness is part of your thinking process, animals don't think therefore they are not conscious. Since conscieness is part of your body, when your body dies so does your consciousness!!.

**If something has no consciousness, it is dead.
Are you saying that humans were dead and gradually developed consciousness out of necessity?**

Well we have to fully understand what consciousness is, correct?

many philosophers have pondered the question of being, consciousness, and the like. What consciousness is Jan is thought process, that humans were able to develop, due to the large matter up on their head we call the "brain" What we were before was zombie like beings which our leaders of the trybe gave orders and we followed them, we kept hearing voices in our heads, those voices where the left hemisphere of the brain communicating with the other half of the brain!, Hence "Bicameral" These voices since men didn't know were they came from were called "gods" those who heard the voices were the witch doctors & such!, or in the times of the Greeks these people whom heard the voices were called "oracles". Many reminances of that period of time still lingers in our brains, and therefore religion has been there all along, the voices in our heads are gone. So when this happened in history about 2500 years ago that is the voices started to become jiberish, and simply we started to develop a consciousness as we know it today!.

Jan It would really help if you would just read the book!! it's not going to bite you! really I promise, you don't have to change your religion by reading it either!.

Julian Jaines, "The Origins of Consicousness In the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"

***Maybe the "generation of vipers" approach is what God has given me to work with.***

Maybe. However, I believe that God's* given you more than that to work with.

*Originally posted by Godless
I became an athiest because of people like you!!.*

Nah, it's actually your own choice.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(Romans 1:21,22, KJV).

*I don't have people here considering of putting me on their ignore list!*

"Ignore" is the root of "ignorance."
The more ignoring one does, the more ignorant one is.

*I don't jump all over someone with smurks of sarcasm, and thump the bible almost every single post, I don't for that matter post quotes of authoritive figures, such as the most evil co-author of your precious bible!*

You try, but you fail.

*Ah! the mighty tony1, able to leap from post-post in a single minute, without really reading what anyone might have to say! able to fight demons, with a single word!, able to quote the bible in a single second!.*

Hey, not bad!
That's pretty good for an atheist to figure that out.

*Taken took the time to kind of explain what god is in her own words, I liked her version, only cause I looked beyond her words, and placed a single word, for every time she used "god", that single word was "life".*

So does the Bible...

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(John 11:25, KJV).

*However life is not a supernatural phenomena, it is just existence and life to experience this existence. *

You blew it again.

*Originally posted by blonde_cupid
Maybe. However, I believe that God's* given you more than that to work with.*

Aside from the fact that I still don't know who that God with the asterisk stuck to the side of his head is, you are correct.
However, not necessarily here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
The bible does not explain were consciousness comes from.

The bible does explain where consciousness comes from.

And the Lord God formed man out of the dust and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Insects, are not conscious, fish, other lower forms of life, such as
Fungie, etc..

Of course they’re conscious, how else could they eat, grow, defend, reproduce, sleep and die. They’re consciousness may be lower than humans, but they are undoubtedly conscious.
When doctors checks to see if someone who is unconscious, has a pulse, he is checking to see if they are conscious because if they are conscious, then they are alive, irrespective as to whether they are coherant or not.

Nope your rationalizing!, your consciousness is part of your thinking process…

Without consciousness you are dead, so yes, it is a part of our thinking process and every other process of mind and body.

…animals don't think therefore they are not conscious. Since conscieness is part of your body, when your body dies so does your consciousness!!

That is complete nonesense. Of course animals think.
If consciousness is a part of our body, then we should be able to see it or its chemical or biological components.
Have you seen them?

What we were before was zombie like beings which our leaders of the tribe gave orders and we followed them…

In order to follow these orders, would it not have required consciousness?
If we didn’t have consciousness, would we not be dead.
Even a zombie has consciousness, albeit very low.

These voices since men didn't know were they came from were called "gods"

Must have been very intelligent zombies.
They decided on the name ‘gods,’ sounds like modern day politicians.

So when this happened in history about 2500 years ago that is the voices started to become jiberish, and simply we started to develop a consciousness as we know it today!.

That, I’m sorry to say is complete jibberish, it is not even relative.
This is the nonsense of atheism.

Jan It would really help if you would just read the book!! it's not going to bite you! really I promise, you don't have to change your religion by reading it either!.

I am going to see if I can obtain it from the library, if I can I will read it on the condition that you read ‘Bhagavad Gita As It Is’ by Srila Prabhupada:

Love

Jan Ardena.

The bible does explain where consciousness comes from.

And the Lord God formed man out of the dust and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Ah, but one could say life and consciousness are two different things. If you were to say they are the same, we would be no better than any other animal on the planet, intelligence wise.

Of course they’re conscious, how else could they eat, grow, defend, reproduce, sleep and die. They’re consciousness may be lower than humans, but they are undoubtedly conscious.

They are undoubtably alive, but consciousness is another matter. Consciousness deals with the ability for thought, perception and the awareness of one's existance, surroundings and thoughts. Most animals act on nothing but instinct which is not consciousness.

When doctors checks to see if someone who is unconscious, has a pulse, he is checking to see if they are conscious because if they are conscious, then they are alive, irrespective as to whether they are coherant or not.

What happens, then, if someone is unconscious but still has a steady pulse and is breathing steadily? Or what happens in a coma? Clearly they are still alive, just not able to think or be aware of their surroundings, ie. conscious.

Without consciousness you are dead

See above.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xelios
Ah, but one could say life and consciousness are two different things.

Yes! But it would be considered foolish.
Consciousness is the symptom of a soul which is the cause of life.
The body is dead matter, until the soul enters therein, and then becomes dead again after the soul has left.

If you were to say they are the same, we would be no better than any other animal on the planet, intelligence wise.

Life is activity and movement, consciousness is of various levels depending on the various bodies it inhabits. So a dog has a certain level of consciousness which is higher than a sheeps, which is higher than a slugs, which is higher than a tree. Humans are supposed to have the highest developed consciousness on the planet.
That developed consciousness is there for a specific purpose, and that purpose is to find out our true identities in relation to God, it is a special boon from the Supreme Lord. If we use our consciousness just to heighten our sense pleasure, then we are no more intelligent than the animals because our only purpose would be to improve our eating, sleeping, sex life and defending. These principle are there also in the animals.

They are undoubtably alive, but consciousness is another matter.

We can see that they are alive but they have to be conscious, otherwise they wouldn’t know what to do, how to eat, when to sleep, when and how to reproduce. They wouldn’t hide when they fear a preditor, which also has consciousness.
To be alive means to have some form of consciousness.

Consciousness deals with the ability for thought, perception and the awareness of one's existance, surroundings and thoughts. Most animals act on nothing but instinct which is not consciousness.

Yes, but perception differs according to different situations. You are probably more aware mid morning than you would be last thing at night. But whatever the situation you would still be conscious.
If you are tired, your consciousness is more alert than if you were asleep. Animals also have varying levels of consciousness which makes them act accordingly. Animals do not, however, have the conscious ability to question their existence, and as a result they are not responsible for their actions. A tree has consciousness, but it is at a very low level.

What happens, then, if someone is unconscious but still has a steady pulse and is breathing steadily?

That means their awareness is extremely low thus they are unconscious of themselves, but they are still conscious because they are alive.

Or what happens in a coma? Clearly they are still alive, just not able to think or be aware of their surroundings, ie. conscious.

See above.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Yes, I suppose you could look at it that way. =)

Quote: Ayn Rand

Sensations: The lower of the conscious species possess only the faculty of "sensations", which is sufficient to direct thier actions and provide for their needs. A sensation is produced by the automatic reaction of a sense organ to a stimulus from the outside world; it lasts for the duration of the immediate moment, as long as the stimulus lasts and no longer. Sensations are an automatic responce, an automatic form of knowledge, which a consciousness can neither seek nor evade. An organism that possess only the faculty of sensation is quided by the pleasure-pain mechanism of its body.

The higher organisms possess a much more potent form of consciousness: They possess the faculty of "retaining" sensations, which is the faculty of perception. A "perception" is a group of sensations automatically retained and intergrated by the brain of a living organism, which gives it the ability to be aware, not of single stimuli, but of "entities", of things. An animal is quided, not merely by immediate sensations, but by "percepts". It's actions are not single, discrete responses to single, separate stimuli, but are directed by an intergrated awarness of the "perceptual" reality confronting it.

Although chronologically, man's consciouosness develops in three stages: the stage of sensations, the perceptual, the conceptual--epistemologically, the base of all of man's knowledge is the "perceptual" stage.
Sensations, as such, are not retained in man's memory, nor is man able to experience a pure isolated sensation. As far as can be ascertained, an infant's sesory experience is an undiffrentiated chaos. Discriminated awarness begins on the level of percepts.
Percepts, not sensations, are the given, the self-evident. The knowledge of sensations as components of percepts is not direct, it is acquired by man much later: it is a scintific, "conseptual discovery".
(It may be supposed that the concept "existent" is impolicit even on the level of sensations--if and to the extent that a consciousness is able to discriminate on that level. A sensation is a sensation of something, as distinguished from the "nothing" of the preceding and succeding moments. A sensation does not tell man "what" exists, but only that it exists.)

Sensations are the primary material of consciousness and, therefore, cannot be communicated by means of the material which is derived from them. The existential causes of sensations can be described and defined in conceptual terms (e.g., the wavelengths of light and the structure of the human eye, which produce the sensations of color), but one cannot communicate what color is like, to a person who is born blind. To define the meaning of "blue" objects to signify, in efect: "I mean this." Such an identification of a concept is known as an "ostensive definition."

Quote Xelios:
"Most animals act on nothing but instinct which is not consciousness."

No! they act on nothing but sensations, "instinct is automatic knowledge" this is an imposibility, for all animals are born "tabula rasa".

Natural Phenomena: Most people call natural phenomena such as various survival and mating behaviors "instinct". But "instinct" is a mystical term that does not exist in humans or in animals. The term "instinct" implies inborn or innate knowledge, which is a false notion. The use of "instinct" to explain behavior is to explain nothing. Moreover, the "insticnt" explanation closes further investigation into that which is not yet understood or known. "Instinct" is a mystical, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific term. For, accepting that catchall term as an explanation precludes further intellectual and scientific efforts to discover the reassons for various behaviors. Accepting "instinct" as an explanation for any human behavior constitutes accepting the mystical concept that knowledge can be inborn or innately acquired without the self-efforts required for acquiring all knowledge. Likewise, all living species function through definable, understandable biological actions and reactions, not through undefinable, mystical "instincts". To explain anything as "instinct" is a default to the mystic's desire for automatic, inborn, effortless knowledge. * Frank R. Wallace (Neo-Tech Publishing)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless
Quote: Ayn Rand
Sensations: The lower of the conscious species possess only the faculty of "sensations", which is sufficient to direct thier actions and provide for their needs. A sensation is produced by the automatic reaction of a sense organ to a stimulus from the outside world; it lasts for the duration of the immediate moment, as long as the stimulus lasts and no longer.

First, notice how he/she says “The lower of the conscious species…” this indicates that the being has consciousness, albeit lower.
Then he/she goes on to say, “…which is sufficient to direct their actions…
“A sensation is produced by the automatic reaction of a sense organ to a stimulus from the outside world;”
This is non different from our own automatic sensations.

Sensations are an automatic responce, an automatic form of knowledge, which a consciousness can neither seek nor evade. An organism that possess only the faculty of sensation is quided by the pleasure-pain mechanism of its body.

To feel pleasure and pain, we must have consciousness. If you kick a dog, does it not cry out in pain, pretty much like human beings? This means that the dog has consciousness pretty close to our own as both species act very similar.
A tree also feels, this has actually been scientifically proven, with instruments of modern science. However, a tree does not protest when struck, because a trees consciousness is very low.

The higher organisms possess a much more potent form of consciousness: They possess the faculty of "retaining" sensations, which is the faculty of perception.

Here, he/she actually grades the different levels of consciousness according to the differing levels of organisms or bodies.

A "perception" is a group of sensations automatically retained and intergrated by the brain of a living organism, which gives it the ability to be aware, not of single stimuli, but of "entities", of things. An animal is quided, not merely by immediate sensations, but by "percepts".

I have been burned by fire, so I can remember the distress caused by fire and will try and avoid it in future. Animals also have this ability according to their understanding of pain or according to their level of consciousness.

It's actions are not single, discrete responses to single, separate stimuli, but are directed by an intergrated awarness of the "perceptual" reality confronting it.

This is also the state of some humans also, because they have an animalistic consciousness due to their ignorance of God.

Sensations are the primary material of consciousness and, therefore, cannot be communicated by means of the material which is derived

Here, I would tend to disagree. It is because we are conscious why we can perceive sensations. Whereas he/she say, “Sensations are the primary material of consciousness.” This seems to indicate that senstation is material and its components make up conciousness. That means if somebody survived and horrific accident and as a result was paralyzed from the neck down, then they are less conscious than somebody who has full bodily capacity.
That would make Stephen Hawkin a zombie.

The existential causes of sensations can be described and defined in conceptual terms (e.g., the wavelengths of light and the structure of the human eye, which produce the sensations of color),

The causes of sensations can be described, but that is secondary to the sensations felt and experienced.

but one cannot communicate what color is like, to a person who is born blind. To define the meaning of "blue" objects to signify, in efect: "I mean this." Such an identification of a concept is known as an "ostensive definition."

What if the blind person has a concept of blue in their minds eye. Remember, colour is not a man made invention.
The blind persons experience of blue would be just as blue as yours, but may not call it blue. Therefore, it is experience that really counts, it is experience which develops our consciousness, explanation is a secondary relief.

The causes of sensations can be described, but that is secondary to the sensations felt and experienced.

Aha!!
Just as I said.

Love

Jan Ardena.