And it ain't the good ol' clean hanging either, where the prisoner drops like a stone 5 feet below, and the huge knot around his neck snaps it, so he dies on the spot.

These people had small nooses with small knots tied around their necks, were lifted slowly by cranes, their feet dangling, and hung there for a few minutes until they suffocated to death. All the while, the crowd of degenerates below shouted "Allah Akbar".

Killing them for their crimes is bad enough (libs, how does this sit with your views on capital punishment?) -- but torturing them like that is just barbaric.

Here's the heart-breaking video (http://kamangir.net/2007/07/21/execution-in-the-islamic-republic-very-graphic/)

This is very similar to the public hanging of blacks in the American South in the 50s and 60s.
There too there were crowds gathered round, hollering insults at the "convicts". There too was a big sense of justice among the executioners and the crowd. There too police was probably involved (though they were rogue officers).

In this case there were cops involved too - but they weren't rogue. The execution was approved by the current Iranian legal system, and proudly acknowledged by the Administration.

That culture of lynching that had thrived in the South in the 50s and 60s has been thoroughly condemned (and rightly so) by everyone in America. That culture thrives today in parts of Iran, and is embraced by their legal system and current president. (There has been a public stoning too recently... the first one since 2000)

The people who did this, the ones who are part of this culture, are the so-called base of the current president of Iran and of the regime of mullahs who are his bosses.

Think to yourselves - if the executioners of the 50s were in charge of a country, would you trust them? Would you trust their use of the word "justice"? Would you believe them when they say "we do not want to build nuclear weapons. We are peaceful?" Will you respect their right to govern a country and hold a whole people hostage?

Please explain to me the nuance of why the Southern executioners can be and are condemned wholesale, while the Iranian executioners are not?

There are some who condemn them "in principle", yet refuse to support any action against them -- the least of which is condemning them loudly, clearly, and proudly. Is that not cowardice?

Who were the executioners? Was it a legal process?

Who were the executioners? Was it a legal process?

as long as they were gay, it is legal.

?? in the advanced islamic world? noooooooooo come on!

anyways in the mind of Islamic nations, torturing is a way to teach others visually that when they will mastermind an evil act they better not commence it since the mind will bring up the images of suffering of those people who did such acts.

Here is an example of how different countries handle the same issue:

Issue:
A boy steals a bagel with cream cheese that his father eats every day and cannot go to job without eating that bagel. The boy is caught consuming that bagel by his brother, mother, and father.

America:
The mother and father comment the boy that he not do so because it is bad, they tell the boy that he will not be let to watch TV for 1 week as a punishment, the boy realizes his fault and does not steal anymore bagels, after three days pass he is allowed to watch TV once more and forgiven.

Iran:
The father takes the boy outside to the streets. Screams "Allah Akbar" and screams to everyone that his child has stolen from him. The villagers line up with stones and start throwing it towards the boy. After a while the body of the boy is dragged back to the house. In two months the boy feels better.

in American case...the other boy has learned that not much is done if you cross the line of law. in Iran's case...the other boy inscribes it on his hand to not steal ever.

"Islamic world" is too broad. Blanket bombing with such accusations the entire "Islamic world" will build an easy strawman for libs to knock down.

Please don't help them.

"Islamic world" is too broad. Blanket bombing with such accusations the entire "Islamic world" will build an easy strawman for libs to knock down.

Please don't help them.

not broad at all. it takes only a few conversations with several muslims from advanced countries to see that such views on the world arent the virtue of only few states and people.

Right... especially the Iranian (and other Muslim) victims of and refugees from such barbarity

?? in the advanced islamic world? noooooooooo come on!Orthodox Jews hate gays just as much as Islamic radicals.

Orthodox Jews hate gays just as much as Islamic radicals.

Nuance: they don't hang them from cranes.

Nuance: they don't hang them from cranes.They would if they could.

Well, if you commit a crime, you are punished. It's as simple as that.

Well, if you commit a crime, you are punished. It's as simple as that.

Well Einstein, sometimes the punishment does not fit the crime. Why do you think we have laws against 'cruel and unusual' punishment here in the states? :rolleyes:
Use your stellar interweb skills and go research it one day instead of trying to make IACesque posts on here.

Maybe one day you will wise up and realize that amputating hands for stealing and getting stoned in public for not having a veil on your head is fuckin ridiculous.

Barbaric.

Well Einstein, sometimes the punishment does not fit the crime. Why do you think we have laws against 'cruel and unusual' punishment here in the states? :rolleyes:
Use your stellar interweb skills and go research it one day instead of trying to make IACesque posts on here.


The US has the highest prison population in the world; it used to award death sentences to juvenile offenders until March 2005.

All countries have evolving legal systems.


Maybe one day you will wise up and realize that amputating hands for stealing and getting stoned in public for not having a veil on your head is fuckin ridiculous.

Of course they will; after all they no longer have stocks for prisoners and no one is drawn and quartered after being hung in the West anymore.

In some countries (like Nigeria and Saudi Arabia) you get your hand chopped off for stealing, so why's Iran getting so much attention lately?

As a supporter of Syria and opposed to Israel I must say Norsefire makes all of us look like barbarians, doesn't help the image much. The Assad government does not operate like Iran's, or Saudi Arabia's. Anyone displaying the flag of Syria should know that. Norsefire defames the flag and hurts the cause by grandstanding with ANTI Assad fundamentalists.

In some countries (like Nigeria and Saudi Arabia) you get your hand chopped off for stealing, so why's Iran getting so much attention lately?

Its time to liberate the Iranians. I wonder how many of them the US and Europe are willing to accept as immigrants. The last known figure for the Iraqis was 2 million in the US

Orthodox Jews hate gays just as much as Islamic radicals.

there are crazy jews as well yes.

Well Einstein, sometimes the punishment does not fit the crime. Why do you think we have laws against 'cruel and unusual' punishment here in the states? :rolleyes:
Use your stellar interweb skills and go research it one day instead of trying to make IACesque posts on here.

Maybe one day you will wise up and realize that amputating hands for stealing and getting stoned in public for not having a veil on your head is fuckin ridiculous.

Oh I agree 100%. I wasn't saying that that was a fit punishment, I do know about the constitutions amendment on crime and punishment

I was simply stating, if you commit a crime, you are punished. Perhaps for the Iranians, that is a ridiculous crime. It sure as hell would never happen in Syria, but then again Israel is longtime known to be a violater of Human Rights

As a supporter of Syria and opposed to Israel I must say Norsefire makes all of us look like barbarians, doesn't help the image much. The Assad government does not operate like Iran's, or Saudi Arabia's. Anyone displaying the flag of Syria should know that. Norsefire defames the flag and hurts the cause by grandstanding with ANTI Assad fundamentalists.

My blood is Syrian. Who are you to tell me this?

The US has the highest prison population in the world; it used to award death sentences to juvenile offenders until March 2005.
What does that have to do with cruel and unusual punishment and punishment not fitting the crime?
Way to go yet again entirely avoiding the topic altogether. You just had to get some word in regardles, didn't you, Princess?


All countries have evolving legal systems.
This is relevant to what? Some systems are more evolved than others.

Yet 'some' systems still do stone, hang, and amputate hands.
Are you going to acknowledge that, or are you going to play stupid like you always do when someone calls you out on something?



Of course they will; after all they no longer have stocks for prisoners and no one is drawn and quartered after being hung in the West anymore.
W...T...F does this statement have to do with cruel and unusual punishment?

Think to yourselves - if the executioners of the 50s were in charge of a country, would you trust them? Would you trust their use of the word "justice"? Would you believe them when they say "we do not want to build nuclear weapons. We are peaceful?" Will you respect their right to govern a country and hold a whole people hostage?

Please explain to me the nuance of why the Southern executioners can be and are condemned wholesale, while the Iranian executioners are not?

There are some who condemn them "in principle", yet refuse to support any action against them -- the least of which is condemning them loudly, clearly, and proudly. Is that not cowardice?

Excellent post, otheadp. It's a shame not a single person has responded to this part of your OP, though, as I feel that is the more important issue here.

My blood is Syrian.
Ooh, a friend of mine had that once. Don't worry, though, it got better.

Originally Posted by otheadp
Nuance: they don't hang them from cranes.
They would if they could.

Assuming your false statement is correct, why do you think they can't? Why do you think there are gay parades being held in Jerusalem and Arab gays have to congregate in Israeli towns where they may do so in safety?

Maybe it's because that the same people who blow up hair salons and internet cafes will butcher them (in the full meaning of the word) if they came out of the closet on the streets of Gaza or Ramallah...

My blood is Syrian. Who are you to tell me this?
Someone with more knowledge of the region and it's problems than you. Your fundamentalism and general ignorance shame the flag you stand on for attention.

?:confused: ?

Someone with more knowledge of the region and it's problems than you. Your fundamentalism and general ignorance shame the flag you stand on for attention.


Well Genji, why don't you take a trip over to the middle east and try to pick up a few Islamic Boy Friends, I'm sure they would enjoy your company.

...but then again Israel is longtime known to be a violater of Human Rights

Wow... I was wondering how long it would take you to bring Israel into this. Generally you dump the non sequiturs into the arguement in under two posts... this one took you a lot longer.

Remember the topic of the thread: "3 publicly hanged in Iran"? Try actually sticking to/debating that point without blaming everything, including the bad weather, on Israel or the USA.

~String

Well Genji, why don't you take a trip over to the middle east and try to pick up a few Islamic Boy Friends, I'm sure they would enjoy your company.

Buffalo-- you're making it personal. Don't make me edit out your comments. Debate the point.

~String

Well Genji, why don't you take a trip over to the middle east and try to pick up a few Islamic Boy Friends, I'm sure they would enjoy your company.
Mmmmm. I'd positively LOVE too!!!!! A Muslim Meat Marathon!!!!!!! I hafta stop.:o

Mmmmm. I'd positively LOVE too!!!!! A Muslim Meat Marathon!!!!!!! I hafta stop.:o

http://boldt.us/4556-2/ROFL_MAO
:roflmao:

CLAMF!!

Iran for genji.

http://www.homanla.org/New/40.jpg

...meanwhile Ahmidinejad

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/gay_ahmadinejad.jpg

Iran for genji.

You're being presumptuous by thinking Genji cares about these sort of things.

He'll start his graphic mansex descriptions now. :D

You're being presumptuous by thinking Genji cares about these sort of things.Using my sexuality to bait/attack me in subjects with no relation to homosexuality pisses me off. :shrug: Go figure. Using these two murdered kids as a soapbox is despicable.

Using my sexuality to bait/attack me in subjects with no relation to homosexuality pisses me off. :shrug: Go figure. Using these two murdered kids as a soapbox is despicable.

They probably get turned on by your descriptions of same sex shenanigans.

According to a study I read about :

A theory that homophobia is a result of latent homosexuality was put forth in the late 20th century. A 1996 study conducted at the University of Georgia by Henry Adams, Lester Wright Jr., and Bethany Lohr indicates that a number of "homophobic" males exhibit latent homosexuality. The research was done on 64 heterosexual men, 35 of whom exhibited "homophobic" traits and 29 who did not. Three tests were conducted using penile plethysmography. While there was no difference in response when the men were exposed to heterosexual and lesbian pornography, there was a major difference in response when the men were exposed to male homosexual pornography.

The researchers reported that 24% of the non-"homophobic" men showed some degree of tumescence in response to the male homosexual video, compared to 54% of the subjects who scored high on the "homophobia scale". In addition, 66% of the nonhomophobic group showed no significant increases in tumescence after this video, but only 20% of the "homophobic" men failed to display any arousal. Additionally, when the participants rated their degree of sexual arousal later, the "homophobic" men significantly underestimated their degree of arousal by the male homosexual video.



They might be provocative on purpose.:shrug:

They probably get turned on by your descriptions of same sex shenanigans.

According to a study I read about :



They might be provocative on purpose.:shrug:Quite possible. Very interesting article. I'll heat up my mansexcapades from now on!

Using my sexuality to bait/attack me in subjects with no relation to homosexuality pisses me off. :shrug: Go figure. Using these two murdered kids as a soapbox is despicable.

This is all related, which is something you've apparently chosen to ignore. The collective mind that chooses to hang teenagers for being gay (please note I'm talking about that collective mind's actions, not just its ideology) believes this is the highest form of justice. That same perverse sense of justice drives the rest of their decisions -- be it war with the US or attaining nuclear weapons.

I'd also like to point out that if you look closely at the type of noose on these boys' necks you'll know that their hanging was conducted in the same way I described in the other thread about the 3 people hanged in Iran -- slowly and brutally, to inflict maximum justice.

This is all related, which is something you've apparently chosen to ignore. The collective mind that chooses to hang teenagers for being gay (please note I'm talking about that collective mind's actions, not just its ideology) believes this is the highest form of justice. That same perverse sense of justice drives the rest of their decisions -- be it war with the US or attaining nuclear weapons.

I'd also like to point out that if you look closely at the type of noose on these boys' necks you'll know that their hanging was conducted in the same way I described in the other thread about the 3 people hanged in Iran -- slowly and brutally, to inflict maximum justice.This is about a theocracy and religious fundamentalist terrorism inflicted on it's own population, not anything 'collective.'
Iran's opposition to Israel and the US is something I support. Also Iran's support of Hezbollah, a group I sympathize with as well.
Iran's social backwardness is an issue that must be resolved, of course. But bigger and more important battles are at hand.
You and draqon seem to agree with Iran's treatment of gays, the celebratory tone you both wave about regarding the sickening photo.
I do realize I'm hated in the US by Christian fundies as much as I would be in Iran. The difference is I do choose when to keep myself inside the closet so I can focus on larger issues.

Iran's opposition to Israel and the US is something I support. Also Iran's support of Hezbollah, a group I sympathize with as well.

The twisted mind that calls the above "justice" cannot be right vis-a-vis the "Palestinian" question. [EDIT: and the Lebanese and Syrian and American too]

Iran's social backwardness is an issue that must be resolved, of course. But bigger and more important battles are at hand.
It isn't a side issue. It's the issue. The less religious segment of Iranians don't mind being friends with the US or Israel (as long as a solution fair to both sides is arrived at). It is the Islamic Revolution that has started this horrible process of deteriorations of relations between Iran and all of its neighbours in the Gulf, not just the US and Israel.

So it is the central problem that causes all the rest of them.

You and draqon seem to agree with Iran's treatment of gays, the celebratory tone you both wave about regarding the sickening photo.
That couldn't be farther from the truth.

In the Kansas territories, according to a random blurb years ago in a column by L. M. Boyd, they once hanged a cow for sorcery.

And popular legend still persists that folks in England once hanged a monkey on charges of being a French spy. (The locals apparently revel in the legend.)

The point is that idiotic assertions of justice are often the results of ignorance (hanging a monkey as a French spy) and high superstition (hanging a cow for sorcery).

In the Puritan days on the North American continent, people were slowly crushed under piles of stones in a witch-hunt that started with young girls lying to get out of trouble with their parents, and, when the dust settled, appeared to be more about a property fight than witchery.

If we reach back to the Inquisitions, well, there you go.

This is one of the problems with tampering with communities. If you do something to hold them back, they won't develop socially with the rest of the world.

Hangings and stonings in places like Iran may seem as savage as the Inquisitions or the French Terror, but this sort of thing is hardly unexpected when major world powers (the U.S., for example) spend so much effort on preventing social development in other countries. So while we recoil in disgust and mutter to ourselves, "How horrible are these people?" we must consider the broader factor. I look around at my nation, the United States, and remind myself that our luxury is dependent on maintaining a large poverty class worldwide, the perpetuation of mass human suffering, and, in the end, backward and superstitious assertions of life, reality, and justice.

I don't see savage Muslims or evil Iranians in that video. I see fellow human beings in desperate need of genuine help.

Good point tiassa. The 25 years the Iranians spend under the Savak which culminted in the revolution of the mullahs, the only surviving group under the Shah; followed by the continuous non-stop sanctions against Iran since 1979 are ample instances of such repression.

Just saw the video. Why were they hanged?

Just saw the video. Why were they hanged?

because they committed a sin of this world.

midevil references
Apologists for that kind of barbarity often invoke things that were done by "white," "Christian people" centuries or even millenia ago. That's the thing - we're not in the midevil times. We're in 2007.

this sort of thing is hardly unexpected when major world powers (the U.S., for example) spend so much effort on preventing social development in other countries.
That's B.S. of course. During the colonial and post-colonial periods the western world had tried to do the opposite of that -- to provide progress to parts of the world where there was none. To teach them modern economics, modern medicine, arts, culture, etc. how is that "preventing social development"?

The problem is that these things were rejected by these peoples. They said "who needs your 'advanced' culture? what's wrong with our own?" And that argument is completely legitimate.

we must consider the broader factor
The apologist should stop trying to find "some hidden reason" where there is none. Jimmy, as much as he fucked up during his term, is not responsible for these savage acts. Why is it so hard to accept? The leftist internationalists refuse to admit that some people are backwards, and it's no one's fault.

our luxury is dependent on maintaining a large poverty class worldwide, the perpetuation of mass human suffering, and, in the end, backward and superstitious assertions of life, reality, and justice.
That sounds like Karl Marx. It is also completely false.

You and I and our shopping habbits are not responsible for these people's deaths.

In some countries (like Nigeria and Saudi Arabia) you get your hand chopped off for stealing, so why's Iran getting so much attention lately?

Is that true? Maybe years ago it was, but is it still? I just don't see many one handed Saudis.

[QUOTE=otheadp;1486629]
That's B.S. of course. During the colonial and post-colonial periods the western world had tried to do the opposite of that -- to provide progress to parts of the world where there was none. To teach them modern economics, modern medicine, arts, culture, etc. how is that "preventing social development"?

The problem is that these things were rejected by these peoples. They said "who needs your 'advanced' culture? what's wrong with our own?" And that argument is completely legitimate.

QUOTE]

I'm not apologising for the barbarity. Iran has had a very bloody history, which became apparent when the world witnessed the Revolution (widely known because of the overthrow of a pro US shah), But I'm asking for examples where the colonial powers have provided "advanced" education for everyone, the rich, the poor, the middle class.. Have they in any case ?

Whereas, Denying Social development.. there are plenty of cases, from south America, where propping up dictator govts, for commercial interests have produced barbaric practices to this date

from south America, where propping up dictator govts, for commercial interests have produced barbaric practices
for example?
and let's make a distinction between people trying to overthrow their government (which is a political fight, which can be brutal in any country), and the cultural rules that are present during a state of peace, such as the rules of stoning adulterous women (with stones not too big, for they will kill too fast, and not too small, for they aren't painful enough -- as the Imam Khomenei himself wrote)

because they committed a sin of this world.

Well, what particular "sin"? If they were murderers, then good for them. I'd like to know what they in fact did to deserve this punishment.

Does it matter?
Wouldn't make particular difference if these 3 actually murdered someone (though I doubt they did) because in Iran, rape victims and adulterers typically get executed like that (or by stoning.)

Does it matter?
Wouldn't make particular difference if these 3 actually murdered someone (though I doubt they did) because in Iran, rape victims and adulterers typically get executed like that (or by stoning.)

You doubt they did? Of course you doubt it, because it makes hating Iran easier for you. Listen, from what I can tell, we don't know what they did, so how can we fairly comment? We can't.

Well, what particular "sin"? If they were murderers, then good for them. I'd like to know what they in fact did to deserve this punishment.

R A P E

http://beautifulworld.podomatic.com/2006-05-01T06_32_07-07_00.jpg

You doubt they did? Of course you doubt it, because it makes hating Iran easier for you. Listen, from what I can tell, we don't know what they did, so how can we fairly comment? We can't.

If they execute murderers or rapists like that, I really couldn't care less. The video of this execution is a typical representation of what gays, adulterers, and sometimes even retarded rape victims get in Iran. That's what this topic is about.

If they execute murderers or rapists like that, I really couldn't care less. The video of this execution is a typical representation of what gays, adulterers, and sometimes even retarded rape victims get in Iran. That's what this topic is about.

Well, I don't think it was homosexuality, because there was a girl there. I don't think it was adultery because there were three people (I doubt a threesome, to be honest. Very infrequent). "Retarded rape victims" are sentenced to hanging by Iran's law? You most definitely need to source this. There is no explanation for their hanging, so the best we can do is speculate. You're assuming the worst-case scenario for their executions, which is an immediate sign of bias. Until we are given authentic reasoning for their deaths, this thread serves no purpose. For all we know, they could be murderers. Case closed.

Well, I don't think it was homosexuality, because there was a girl there. I don't think it was adultery because there were three people (I doubt a threesome, to be honest. Very infrequent). "Retarded rape victims" are sentenced to hanging by Iran's law? You most definitely need to source this. There is no explanation for their hanging, so the best we can do is speculate. You're assuming the worst-case scenario for their executions, which is an immediate sign of bias. Until we are given authentic reasoning for their deaths, this thread serves no purpose. For all we know, they could be murderers. Case closed.

Apologist.

Well, I don't think it was homosexuality, because there was a girl there. I don't think it was adultery because there were three people (I doubt a threesome, to be honest. Very infrequent). "Retarded rape victims" are sentenced to hanging by Iran's law? You most definitely need to source this. There is no explanation for their hanging, so the best we can do is speculate. You're assuming the worst-case scenario for their executions, which is an immediate sign of bias. Until we are given authentic reasoning for their deaths, this thread serves no purpose. For all we know, they could be murderers. Case closed.

Apologist, your would have done well working for P.M.Chamberlan just before Hitler screwed the world.

Apologist.

Yes, it is better to assume they were all retarded rape victims. That's justice!

Is that true? Maybe years ago it was, but is it still? I just don't see many one handed Saudis.

You can leave a bag of gold on the street in Saudi Arabia and pick it up a day later; no one wants to be one handed. :p

Well, I don't think it was homosexuality, because there was a girl there. I don't think it was adultery because there were three people (I doubt a threesome, to be honest. Very infrequent). "Retarded rape victims" are sentenced to hanging by Iran's law? You most definitely need to source this. There is no explanation for their hanging, so the best we can do is speculate. You're assuming the worst-case scenario for their executions, which is an immediate sign of bias. Until we are given authentic reasoning for their deaths, this thread serves no purpose. For all we know, they could be murderers. Case closed.

1 - these 3 are not necessarily involved in the same crime.

2 - I am not assuming the worst case scenario, I'm assuming the typical-case scenario. And I'll repeat for the extra special among us: it doesn't matter what these 3 have done. The topic is about TYPICAL cases. In Iran, a person involved in homosexual acts gets arrested, convicted, and executed every time. And what you see in the video is exactly the treatment they get. Get it? Maybe you'd like me to find a stoning video of an adulteress for you before you believe that these happen?

3 - here's your sourcing: http://commentary.co.za/?p=1408. follow the links inside that link to dig deeper. that link is a bit emotional... if you want dry style reporting of the same thing, here's another link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/19/wiran19.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/19/ixworld.html

for example?
and let's make a distinction between people trying to overthrow their government (which is a political fight, which can be brutal in any country), and the cultural rules that are present during a state of peace, such as the rules of stoning adulterous women (with stones not too big, for they will kill too fast, and not too small, for they aren't painful enough -- as the Imam Khomenei himself wrote)

For example, when the USA influenced the elections of Nicarauga(forgive spelling), and when it propped up the dictatorships in El Salvador. As well as funding terrorist organisations in South America. Source: Noam Chomsky: Manufacturing Consent

1 - these 3 are not necessarily involved in the same crime.

2 - I am not assuming the worst case scenario, I'm assuming the typical-case scenario. And I'll repeat for the extra special among us: it doesn't matter what these 3 have done. The topic is about TYPICAL cases. In Iran, a person involved in homosexual acts gets arrested, convicted, and executed every time. And what you see in the video is exactly the treatment they get. Get it? Maybe you'd like me to find a stoning video of an adulteress for you before you believe that these happen?

3 - here's your sourcing: http://commentary.co.za/?p=1408. follow the links inside that link to dig deeper. that link is a bit emotional... if you want dry style reporting of the same thing, here's another link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/19/wiran19.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/19/ixworld.html

So what is the rate of execution in Iran? How many people get executed in a year?

e.g.

Saudi Arabia imposes the death penalty for a number of crimes including drug
trafficking, murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy (turning away from Islam)
and anything considered to amount to "corruption on earth".


But in hard numbers,

At this time last year, seven
executions had been carried out, and Amnesty International recorded two
amputations during the whole of 1999.

Whats the equivalent statistics for executions in other countries?

in Saud, 2005 was the year of the sword, where there was a record breaking number of head chopping executions (191)
2007 is forecasted to beat that number.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289317,00.html

that's quite a lot for a population of 27 million

though IMHO, as barbaric headchopping is, it's not that bad the way the Saudi gov't is doing it since it's instant. and when they chop your hand off, they freeze it first so you don't feel pain during.

Iran's version of "justice" is different. its goal is to inflict maximum maximum pain.

Whats the equivalent statistics for executions in other countries?

Ok I found it.

Apparently the figures are high in Saudi Arabia and Iran. There is a lot of data on amnesty.


Amnesty International also recorded over 3,857 people who were sentenced to death in 63 countries during 1999.

Although the number of recorded worldwide executions is less than the 2,258 executions recorded last year, certain countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and the USA actually increased the numbers of executions in 1999, the organization added.

In Saudi Arabia the rate of executions has risen significantly. In 1998, 29 people were officially reported to have been executed. Last year, 103 executions were officially announced although the real figure is probably much higher. A significant proportion of those executed were denied any formal legal representation.

China continues to execute more people than the rest of the world put together. In 1999, limited records available at the end of the year indicated that the authorities carried out at least 1,077 executions -- although the true figures are believed to be far higher. Many prisoners in China are sentenced to death after trials that are often grossly unfair.

As many as 100 people were executed in the Democratic Republic of the Congo after being sentenced to death by a military court.

The USA executed 98 prisoners last year, 30 more than were executed in 1998. Among these was one person convicted of a crime committed when he was under the age of 18. In the first three months of 2000 alone more such people have been executed in the USA in defiance of international law. According to Amnesty International's knowledge the only other country believed to have executed a person during 1999 for a crime committed before he was 18 was Iran, whose 165 executions recorded during the year far exceeded the 66 executions recorded in 1998.

The figures for China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the USA accounted for 85 per cent of all known executions in 1999, Amnesty International said. The organization also received reports of hundreds of executions in Iraq but was unable to determine whether most of them were judicial or extrajudicial, given the secrecy surrounding them.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/055.html

See, this isn't a discussion about the death penalty. I'm all for it. It's about the WHY and the HOW.

in Saud, 2005 was the year of the sword, where there was a record breaking number of head chopping executions (191)
2007 is forecasted to beat that number.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289317,00.html

that's quite a lot for a population of 27 million

though IMHO, as barbaric headchopping is, it's not that bad the way the Saudi gov't is doing it since it's instant. and when they chop your hand off, they freeze it first so you don't feel pain during.

Iran's version of "justice" is different. its goal is to inflict maximum maximum pain.

It would seem the prevailing justice system is the one from the post revolution period. I wonder how many members of Savak are employed as executioners. A taste for torture that dies hard? :shrug:

In 1976 Amnesty reported that Iran had a system of torture beyond belief.


http://www.countercurrents.org/us-lucas260704.htm

The current Islamic government in Iran is the religious copy of the Shah’s brutal dictatorship. Similar illegitimate scenarios are going on in Iran in recent years.

* The Imam (Velayat-e-Faghih) is the religious version of the Shah (Khod-eye-Gone).
* Hezbollah is the religious version of the Shah’s single political party, Rastakhiz.
* Savama is the religious version of the Shah’s secret police force, Savak.
* Hezbollahis, the followers of the Islamic dictatorship and Savama, is the religious version of Shahollahis, the left over of the Shah's dictatorship and Savak.


http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/expect.html

edit: yup, the king is dead long live the king

SAVAK was the accronym for the Iranian Shah (King) Mohammed Reza Pahlavi's feared security service, which routinely tortured and assassinated dissidents, and spied on everybody. It had been created by the CIA after the CIA installed the shah in power in a 1953 coup d'état.[1]

In 1979, the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini -- who as a dissident leader had been denouncing SAVAK -- came to power after the revolutionary forces deposed the shah. The next year, the Washington Post wrote an interesting article with the title: “Khomeini Is Reported to Have a SAVAK of His Own.”[1a] And what was Khomeini’s own SAVAK like? It was none other than SAVAK itself. Here is what the Washington Post writes (emphases are mine):

“Though it came to power denouncing the shah’s dreaded SAVAK secret service, the government of Iran’s Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini has created a new internal security and intelligence operation, apparently with a similar organizational structure and some of the same faces as its predecessor.

The new organization is called SAVAMA. It is run, according to U.S. sources and Iranian exile sources here and in Paris, by Gen. Hossein Fardoust, who was deputy chief of SAVAK under the former shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and a friend from boyhood of the deposed monarch.


http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/savak.htm

Assuming all that's been said about the SAVAK is true, it hasn't been around for almost 30 years! Are you blaming today's Iranian backwardness on SAVAK?

While it is guilty of political crimes, I think SAVAK was on the side that fought backwardness.

I'm making a distinction between political violence (which in SAVAK's case everyone knew was wrong, and found no support among the population), and violence stemming from backwardness (where there is popular support, supported by "tradition" as opposed to "military or national necessity")

In Castro's Cuba there were revolutionary courts and probably torture chambers too. But that can be half-forgiven, because whatever was (and still is) done today is because of an unpopular regime that is trying to survive. Kind of like the Shah, no? No, it can't be forgiven, but it's not half as bad as the other kind of torture... the kind that doesn't exist in Cuba but does in Iran.

See, this isn't a discussion about the death penalty. I'm all for it. It's about the WHY and the HOW.

Frankly, I am not for the death penalty. The whys and hows are irrelevant to me. Like a technician in my lab said, "you're gonna KILL those rats, get it? KILL them, like permanent death. So wtf do you care if they are in pain when you do it?"

Assuming all that's been said about the SAVAK is true, it hasn't been around for almost 30 years! Are you blaming today's Iranian backwardness on SAVAK?

While it is guilty of political crimes, I think SAVAK was on the side that fought backwardness.

I'm making a distinction between political violence (which in SAVAK's case everyone knew was wrong, and found no support among the population), and violence stemming from backwardness (where there is popular support, supported by "tradition" as opposed to "military or national necessity")

In Castro's Cuba there were revolutionary courts and probably torture chambers too. But that can be half-forgiven, because whatever was (and still is) done today is because of an unpopular regime that is trying to survive. Kind of like the Shah, no? No, it can't be forgiven, but it's not half as bad as the other kind of torture... the kind that doesn't exist in Cuba but does in Iran.

Savama is Savak; it never went away. See edit.

Um... no.
What the writer of that opinion piece had meant was that the situation in today's Iran is just as bad as under the Shah, because there is still secret police there.

But it is not the same aparatus, manned by the same people.

Um... no.
What the writer of that opinion piece had meant was that the situation in today's Iran is just as bad as under the Shah, because there is still secret police there.

But it is not the same aparatus, manned by the same people.

Opinions aside the fact that Gen. Hossein Fardoust was running both Savak and then Savama is a very concrete indicator, na?

After all, that is no state secret.

I didn't know that.

So what is your point? That secular Shah was executing gays and adulterous or retarded teens too?

I didn't know that.

So what is your point? That secular Shah was executing gays and adulterous or retarded teens too?

The secular Shah was too busy killing the liberal dissidents who were mad at him for being the US stooge. Which is why it left only the extreme right fundamentalists standing in power in Iran; whatever happened to the politicians who were there with Mossadegh, or didn't anybody wonder how the liberals just disappeared from the political scene in Iran?

Or why the fundies needed a Savama to stay in power?

Anyway, I agree with you that political reform is needed in Iran, thats what most people there want, anyway.

But much of what passes for justice in Iran is actually a way of sustaining power for the fundies (although it does not necessarily mean that all are cast from the same mould). Which is probably a good reason for the public torture and executions as well.

Assuming all that's been said about the SAVAK is true, it hasn't been around for almost 30 years! Are you blaming today's Iranian backwardness on SAVAK?

While it is guilty of political crimes, I think SAVAK was on the side that fought backwardness.

I want you to think about who is targeted by corrupt governments such as the shah's.

The obvious answer is "political enemies". But among that broad umbrella are journalists, academics, and liberal clergy.

What happens is that the people lose their informational and educational infrastructure. Who steps in and fills the gap?

Journalism is replaced by propaganda and superstitious gossip. The liberal clergy, which has a calming and restraining effect on people, is replaced by ... can you guess?

And what else does the rising ultraconservative clergy do? They run schools.

The reign of the shah so devastated the people of Iran that they turned to the first person that looked like he had a chance of winning. And we remember who that was, right?

Khomeni died in 1989, but took down many academics among his victims. The people have been recovering since then, and for some reason many in the West expect that recovery to be quick. It takes a couple generations to complete the cycle, and diverse events can help or hurt progress. Ali Khameni seems too interested in putting on various performances for the benefit of the world audience to fully destroy his people the way either Khomeni or Palavi did. Nonetheless, he has the power, still, to set the people back decades.

Take a look through history, though: if you destroy the academics and the liberal clergy, there is little to prevent superstition and propaganda from twisting the minds of the people. Many in the West criticize Muslims as if they are stupid or primitive, but if we look back to the American-sponsored overthrow of Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953, how many generations of Iranian never really stood a chance of achieving what we in the West consider enlightenment?

Apologists for that kind of barbarity often invoke things that were done by "white," "Christian people" centuries or even millenia ago. That's the thing - we're not in the midevil times. We're in 2007.

Otheadp, the following pertains to this quote, and also our general running dispute over the years: That this is your response is indicative of why I don't trust your perspective. Simply put, if you can't understand what I wrote, how can you possibly expect that people trust the conclusions and assertions you put forth? When you demonstrate such a clear lack of understanding, why should we believe you understand?

I think the post you responded to was fairly clear.

This is one of the problems with tampering with communities. If you do something to hold them back, they won't develop socially with the rest of the world.

Hangings and stonings in places like Iran may seem as savage as the Inquisitions or the French Terror, but this sort of thing is hardly unexpected when major world powers (the U.S., for example) spend so much effort on preventing social development in other countries.

What about that do you not understand? Its failure to condemn Muslims according to your need?

Why are you making it personal?

I exmplained how nobody was holding them back socially. In fact there were only attempts to fast-track them out of their backwardness. I gave examples too. What do you not understand?

Why are you making it personal?

You think that post made it personal?

I exmplained how nobody was holding them back socially. In fact there were only attempts to fast-track them out of their backwardness. I gave examples too. What do you not understand?

I don't understand how you think tampering with foreign governments, giving aid and comfort to tyrants, and empowering ignorant, violent, ultraconservative elements in a society equal an attempt to "fast-track them out of their backwardness".

Or, more simply: I don't understand how promoting the backwards elements within a society is an attempt to "fast-track them out of their backwardness".

As to you, given that a people are behaving in a manner corresponding to historical examples, how do you not understand that we can find relevant lessons in history?