3 Arab states in gulf say would allow Israel to enter airspace to attack Iran

February 25, 2007

haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ShowTickers.jhtml

Ha! Even if they didn't "allow" it, Israel wouldn't give a shit if they wanted to fly over their dirty little, poverty-stricken nations.

Baron Max

There is no way an arab country or muslim country will let the damn israel forces to fly over it, and also Israel won't dare to do so, they'd be so fucking doomed doing so. damn shitty Haartz news or whatever putting false news. But thats soo typical from the always lying Israel people.

and i've just created this damn account to say this~
Israel people are soo full of shit, they arent honest at all. They're dirty. I dont quite frankly know how they live.
They dont even have a country they steal other people's land.
All of you Israel people know that what i'm saying is true, but you just dont want to face reality. You guys gonna remeber these words just before you die ;) but its too late for you then.

piss on you~
ops, guess my spelling isnt that great ^.^ <-- meant the piss part.
see, even israel people wont be able to understand this cause they are too stupid, lol.

I wonder how long will this reply would stay until they delete it.

Welcome to Sciforums, Sedosama!

"There is no way an arab country or muslim country will let the damn israel forces to fly over it"

Sure there is: 1) fly the nearly empty Jordan-Saudi Border, and 2) transition occupied Iraq using the standard Israeli carte-blanche in Washington.

"I wonder how long will this reply would stay until they delete it."

I've been posting for more than 4 years, and have only had such a thing happen once (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=62887&page=2) (a fluke). You can generally speak your mind here, and please do.

BTW Sedosama, I too think it preposterous for any gulf state to publicly cooperate with Israel militarily. It would not be exceptional in clandestine ops, but in the open such a declaration would be dangerous politically for any of the dynasties.

Sedosama,

1) Do you suppose that Baghdad should be returned to the Assyrian people (who happen to still live around the area)? I mean, it is obviously an Assyrian built city. The cradle of civilization actually.

2) Do you think that Egypt should be returned to the Coptic endogenous Egyptians? Their ancestors built the Gawd Damn pyramids after all.

3) Do you suppose that Constantinople should be retuned to the Greeks? I mean it was the capitol of the Byzantine Empire for 1100 years?

Well?
;)
MII

Sedosama

There is no way an arab country or muslim country will let the damn israel forces to fly over it, and also Israel won't dare to do so, they'd be so fucking doomed doing so.

May I direct your attention to Operation Babylon, they did and will do so again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

Operational planning
The distance between Israeli military bases and the reactor site was significant (over 1000 miles), as it meant the military forces would be operating without easy resupply capability, and would have to arc across Jordanian and Saudi territory. Additionally, Israeli intelligence could not guarantee certain knowledge of the state of Iraqi defenses.


Operation Opera (also known as Operation Babylon and Operation Ofra) is the Israeli Air Force designation used to describe an Israeli air strike against the Iraqi Osirak nuclear reactor (French: Osirak; Iraqi: Tammuz 1) in 1981.

In the late 1970s, Iraq purchased an "Osiris class" nuclear reactor from France. Israeli military intelligence assumed this was for the purpose of plutonium production to further an Iraqi nuclear weapons program. Israeli intelligence also believed that the summer of 1981 would be the last chance to destroy the reactor without exposing the Iraqi civilian population to nuclear fallout. After that point, the reactor would be loaded with nuclear fuel.

3 Arab states in gulf say would allow Israel to enter airspace to attack Iran

February 25, 2007

haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ShowTickers.jhtml
Of course they would.

It's a win-win situation for them. Israel would beat up the Shia Persians (something the Sunni Arabs cannot do, to the same degree) and then the Shia Persians would beat on Israel -- as best they can, which the Sunni Arabs cannot do, to any great effect.

Mr. G: "Of course they would [allow Israel overflight for attacks on Iran]. It's a win-win situation for them."

Not if their military collaboration with Israel were revealed. The Sunni minority-ruled Gulf States are trying to suppress a Shi'a majority rebellion that is ready to boil over. Hiding under Israel's skirts won't help them in the least. On the contrary, such behavior would swiftly make the Emirs pariahs in the entire Arab world.

They dont even have a country they steal other people's land.
All of you Israel people know that what i'm saying is true, but you just dont want to face reality.
yeah, as if the planet exists just for the benefit of "your" people.
as if "your" people own the land.

That's quite a thread resurrection. The ticker certainly no longer says that, so you may want to find an alternative source to back that statement.

Baron and Sedosama, once you're done poo-throwing, please wash your hands before touching any of the other threads. For the sake of hygiene ;)

There is no way an arab country or muslim country will let the damn israel forces to fly over it, and also Israel won't dare to do so, they'd be so fucking doomed doing so. damn shitty Haartz news or whatever putting false news. But thats soo typical from the always lying Israel people.

Crazily enough, just sometime last year, Israel was was making passovers (pun intended) of the Syrian president's home during the whole Hezbollah/Hamas offensive..

- N

Iran is the largest Shia Muslim nation in the world. As far as I can tell its little neighbor Iraq is the second-largest country with a Shiite majority. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are Sunni.

Iran is a thorn in the side of the Sunni world. And especially of the Sunni Middle East, since the Persians are not Arabs. Its sabre-rattling and its success at westernization challenge the Arab hegemony in the region.

Iraq was never a problem until the last few years because its dictator, with lavish support from the U.S., not only kept the minority Sunnis in control of his country, but made war on Iran. Hence the aforementioned lavish American support: The enemy of my enemy is my friend and we'll never forgive Iran for that little hostages-in-the-embassy debacle.

The grudge between Sunni and Shia is almost as old as Islam itself. As we can see from the headlines of any day's newspaper, it is a deeply held, violent grudge that simply will not heal.

The headline-grabbing enmity between Jews and Muslims, on the other hand, is only as old as the State of Israel. Before the Europeans solved their Jewish problem by dumping them into Arab territory, the Jews had generally been treated better in Muslim lands than in Christian lands.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sunni nations decided (clandestinely of course but that's how things are done in tribal cultures) to let Israel do their dirty work and put an end to their "Persian problem."

They dont even have a country they steal other people's land.

Hrrr? You obviously are living in a cave.

How about you open a book and do a little historical reading. There isn't a nation on Earth that does not exist upon the bones and ashes of a previously concquered nation. Muslim nations are the apotheosis this maxim.

~String

Fraggle: "I wouldn't be surprised if the Sunni nations decided (clandestinely of course but that's how things are done in tribal cultures) to let Israel do their dirty work and put an end to their "Persian problem."

How could Israel possibly put an end to the Sunnis' "Persian Problem", or an associated Arab Shi'a rebellion?"

Maybe they could get Israel and Iran to nuke each other. The Persians and Jews get the blame, and the Persians and Jews take the fall. Arabia becomes hegemon of the middle east. The few remaining Shia are assimilated.

Maybe they could get Israel and Iran to nuke each other. The Persians and Jews get the blame, and the Persians and Jews take the fall. Arabia becomes hegemon of the middle east. The few remaining Shia are assimilated.

You want to wipe out two of the longest surviving cultures at one go?:bawl:

There is no way an arab country or muslim country will let the damn israel forces to fly over it, and also Israel won't dare to do so, they'd be so fucking doomed doing so. damn shitty Haartz news or whatever putting false news. But thats soo typical from the always lying Israel people.

and i've just created this damn account to say this~
Israel people are soo full of shit, they arent honest at all. They're dirty. I dont quite frankly know how they live.
They dont even have a country they steal other people's land.
All of you Israel people know that what i'm saying is true, but you just dont want to face reality. You guys gonna remeber these words just before you die ;) but its too late for you then.

piss on you~
ops, guess my spelling isnt that great ^.^ <-- meant the piss part.
see, even israel people wont be able to understand this cause they are too stupid, lol.

I wonder how long will this reply would stay until they delete it.

please don't erase this.
the idiots on this forum need to see this. this is the typical mindset of the people Israel is dealing with. this is the "Arab Street"

You want to wipe out two of the longest surviving cultures at one go?:bawl:
*pats Sam on the back* it's for the best ... out with the old, in with the new... :o

3 gulf states will help Israel because Iran scares the flying camels out of them, and Israel is the only wild dog (in their eyes) that is capable and crazy enough to do something about it.

so it is only logical that they will help. why wouldn't they? all this "Muslim solidarity" talk is pure bullshit. the regime in Iran is threatening their neighbours even though they're all Muslim.

"all this "Muslim solidarity" talk is pure bullshit."

Hear, hear!

Small tactical nukes. I'm telling you, it could work. Attach'em to bunker busters and drop 'em into the underground nuke research facilities. Bam. 'Nuff said.

~String

Great plan, genius. In retaliation for collateral casualties (facilities are near populated areas) Iran would certainly do exactly as they have announced they would do: Slam the door on the Persian Gulf, Mideast oil, Wall St, and America's international good name. Bam.

Dear All,

the arab leaders would sell their soul if it meant increaased wealth and power

This alliance would not surprise me at all.

~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Great plan, genius. In retaliation for collateral casualties (facilities are near populated areas) Iran would certainly do exactly as they have announced they would do: Slam the door on the Persian Gulf, Mideast oil, Wall St, and America's international good name. Bam.

One-- the comment was made tongue-in-cheek
Two-- it may end up being a reality if Iran ends up developing a nuke

~String

1-- My mistake, it's often hard for me to tell the tongue-in-cheek from serious militant nationalism.

2-- If Iran deploys nuclear weapons, the USA won't be so threatening to them anymore.

i'm not saying that it should be done, especially considering that the international sanctions are being more effective than i expected... but IF it's done,

Great plan, genius. In retaliation for collateral casualties (facilities are near populated areas) Iran would certainly do exactly as they have announced they would do: Slam the door on the Persian Gulf, Mideast oil, Wall St, and America's international good name. Bam.

1 - if the bombed facilities are underground then the dispersion, if any at all, won't be material. plus, it's not in populated areas anyways so there shouldn't be any collateral (not that the mullahs cares about collateral civilian deaths anyway...)

2 - any interruption in oil supplies will be temporary. there is lots of US firepower in the area, plus doing this will harm the interests of many countries... friends and allies of Iran. Therefore I think that the blockade of Hormuz will either
(a) not happen, since Iran can't afford to alienate its friends (e.g. Russia, China, EU as importers, and other Arab states as exporters), or
(b) the coalition against Iran will be so strong (see point (a)) that the relatively weak and innefective Iranian military effort will be defeated in a few days

"all this "Muslim solidarity" talk is pure bullshit."

Hear, hear!

i'm not sure for whose benefit you're posting these strange comments. they're cryptic and annoying. just say what you want to say, mr. self-loather... and in a way that your target audience, who ever they may be, understands what you're talking about.

I think he was agreeing.

Fraggle: "I wouldn't be surprised if the Sunni nations decided (clandestinely of course but that's how things are done in tribal cultures) to let Israel do their dirty work and put an end to their "Persian problem." How could Israel possibly put an end to the Sunnis' "Persian Problem"Hey, I'm just going with the flow here. I don't know that they could actually pull it off, but it's the hypothesis that started this thread so I'm accepting it purely "for the sake of the argument." The question we're dealing with here is, "If it were possible for Israel to eliminate Iran as a threat to Arab hegemony in the Mideast, would Arab nations allow it to happen?" or an associated Arab Shi'a rebellion?"The only way there would be an "Arab Shia rebellion" is if there were a "Persian Shia rebellion" to get it started. There are very few Arab Shiites, basically only the fifteen to twenty million of them who live in Iraq. The rest of the Arab countries, with the exception of a couple of really tiny ones, are Sunni. (Like the rest of the Muslim world. Shiites are a very tiny percentage of Muslims everywhere.) The U.S. has already turned Iraq over to its Shiite majority, much to the consternation of our Sunni allies. To the Sunni Arab community, America now really does look like the Great Satan because we have created a Shiite state where there was none.

Talk about stomping through a region we don't understand in our cowboy boots and not having any idea what the hell we're doing... Building a Shiite Arab nation right smack-dab on Iran's border, creating a Shiite neighborhood in the Mideast, was a remarkably ignorant thing to do. The Sunni Arabs might very well look to Israel to help undo the harm Israel's American allies have done by attacking Iran, reducing its threat capability, and eliminating the possibility of a strong Shiite center on this planet.3 gulf states will help Israel because Iran scares the flying camels out of them, and Israel is the only wild dog (in their eyes) that is capable and crazy enough to do something about it.Exactly. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they "will" do it, but I'd be surprised if the idea is not being discussed quietly in the Arab capitals.All this "Muslim solidarity" talk is pure bullshit. The regime in Iran is threatening their neighbours even though they're all Muslim.There is no Muslim solidarity, at least not in the Middle East with its outdated tribal culture. Sunnis and Shiites hate each other about as much as Catholics and Protestants did 600 years ago. There was no "Christian solidarity" back then. The only place you find a spark of Muslim solidarity is in expat communities. In America the Sunni and Shiite immigrants have made some encouraging progress at getting along. There are mosques in America where members of both sects pray at the same time (although not in an integrated group). And their children play together.

One of the keys to success in America through the demise of tribalism is that when you come here, then by the goddess we are going to educate your women and we don't care whether you like it or not. Educated women are the key to peace and harmony. They are the future of civilization.

Time to put in another plug for the Central Asia Institute, headquartered in Boseman, Montana. http://www.ikat.org/ They build schools throughout the Mideast with the condition that they must either be coeducational or strictly for girls. They've built something like a hundred so far. For parents with boys, they're also a nice alternative to those terrorist training camps masquerading as schools that the Saudis are funding all over Asia and Oceania. Our entire charity budget goes to this organization. It is possible to make a difference.

...and America's international good name.
I thought you folks already argued that America's international good name was dead and buried.

Dead and buried, to be sure.

Hundreds of times over.

Dead. Buried. Call 911.

Now you're saying it's alive and well, but at risk of being dead and buried, again?

The rest of us stopped caring about being internationally popular a long time ago.

A dollar ain't two-bits.

I thought you folks already argued that America's international good name was dead and buried.

Dead and buried, to be sure.

Hundreds of times over.

Dead. Buried. Call 911.

Now you're saying it's alive and well, but at risk of being dead and buried, again?

The rest of us stopped caring about being internationally popular a long time ago.

A dollar ain't two-bits.

i was thinking the same thing. it was such a stupid point to make (hype's point) that i didnt even bother to respond to it.

The rest of us stopped caring about being internationally popular a long time ago.

Indeed.

I can't, for the life of me, understand why when Spain, France, Germany and the UK were all global powers, they didn't give a shit about worldwide oppinions, and now that they aren't global powers and DO care about public oppinions, the USA is somehow bound by their enlightened stance. How convenient.

Wow. The world hates the Yanks. Yawn.

~String

Indeed.

I can't, for the life of me, understand why when Spain, France, Germany and the UK were all global powers, they didn't give a shit about worldwide oppinions, and now that they aren't global powers and DO care about public oppinions, the USA is somehow bound by their enlightened stance. How convenient.

Wow. The world hates the Yanks. Yawn.

~String

Possibly because people are now pretty attached to their comfortable lifestyles, the Americans most of all.

Possibly because people are now pretty attached to their comfortable lifestyles, the Americans most of all.

Yeah, people all over the world should begin to be UN-attached with their comfortable lifestyles. We should all revolt and demand to live in mud huts with no running water, no heat, no electricity, nor any doctors (except witch doctors!).

Good one, Sam, thanks! :D

Baron Max

Yeah, people all over the world should begin to be UN-attached with their comfortable lifestyles. We should all revolt and demand to live in mud huts with no running water, no heat, no electricity, nor any doctors (except witch doctors!).

Good one, Sam, thanks! :D

Baron Max

Having a slow day, are we?:)

Having a slow day, are we?

No, I'm weaning myself from the tit of sciforums. and oddly, I've discovered that there actually and truly is life out here with that tit. :D

It's also reinforcing my belief that ignorance really is blissful. And it's relative, of course. I mean, one can't be ignorant of where the library is, for example, or where the Irish Whiskey and coffee is. See? But there's only a few things that really mean any-fuckin'-thing to most of us ....except to bitch n' moan about, of course. which is, I think, what this place is all about.

Baron Max

Mr. G: "I thought you folks already argued that America's international good name was dead and buried."

If you're referring to me, I've never written off the tremendous potential of my country. I've only observed that we've gotten off track lately.

"The rest of us stopped caring about being internationally popular a long time ago."

1. Who are you speaking for?

2. How can the US economy function as an unpopular nation in the world community?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

otheadp: "all this "Muslim solidarity" talk is pure bullshit."

Hear, hear!

" ...just say what you want to say, mr. self-loather... and in a way that [I can understand] what you're talking about."

Thanks, Pothead- I'll try my best. I was in complete agreement that there is no monolithic Muslim solidarity operative in the world. The reasons, like Muslims, are diverse. The myth that "the Muslims" are coming to get us, or are conspiring to dominate the world is ridiculous.

Your response to my less detailed agreement reveals (IMO) an insecurity. I'm not a self-loather, and I don't think I've ever expressed self-loathing. Nor have I ever loathed or written-off my country. But you misrepresent my attitude very similarly to the way Mr.G has above.

I suspect this touchiness is a reaction to the same event: The very bandwagon that Ronald Reagan once so deftly drove is now stuck in a ditch, thanks to Dubya. So in the midst of the ensuing right-wing Chinese-fire-drill, you're eager to make vague accusations that other perspectives have hang-ups, in hopes that nobody will notice that the neoconservative movement is a basket-case.

I believe that my worldview not self-loathing or unpatriotic, but more progressive than yours. It's apparent that similar outlooks to mine are gaining in number, while those similar to yours are sharply declining. Such a predicament would probably make me defensive too, and I do feel a little bit sorry for you.

No, I'm weaning myself from the tit of sciforums. and oddly, I've discovered that there actually and truly is life out here with that tit. :D

It's also reinforcing my belief that ignorance really is blissful. And it's relative, of course. I mean, one can't be ignorant of where the library is, for example, or where the Irish Whiskey and coffee is. See? But there's only a few things that really mean any-fuckin'-thing to most of us ....except to bitch n' moan about, of course. which is, I think, what this place is all about.

Baron Max

Ignorance may be bliss, sadly, reality is a rude wake up call.:bawl:

I believe that my worldview not self-loathing or unpatriotic, but more progressive than yours.

I beleive that that's what every revolutionary leader has claimed as he tried to overthrow the government of his nation.

They also made great claims to their "patriotism", didn't they?

Interesting, huh, Hype?

Baron Max

Ignorance may be bliss, sadly, reality is a rude wake up call.

No, Sam, that never happens if one is truly, blissfully ignorant.

See? Ignorance is bliss. If the starving people of India didn't know that there was anything any better, anywehre in the world, they'd be much, much more happy and content. It's when we shove our wealth in their faces that they realize what they don't have ......and oddly, that seems to piss them off! :D

Baron Max

No, Sam, that never happens if one is truly, blissfully ignorant.

See? Ignorance is bliss. If the starving people of India didn't know that there was anything any better, anywehre in the world, they'd be much, much more happy and content. It's when we shove our wealth in their faces that they realize what they don't have ......and oddly, that seems to piss them off! :D

Baron Max

I doubt it. You're confusing value systems here.

Mr. G: "I thought you folks already argued that America's international good name was dead and buried."

If you're referring to me, I've never written off the tremendous potential of my country. I've only observed that we've gotten off track lately.
There you go again, writing off the tremendous potential of all other tracks my country can be on but the one you prefer. You're one of those folks.
"The rest of us stopped caring about being internationally popular a long time ago."

1. Who are you speaking for?
I was speaking for folks that "you folks" otherwise don't speak for because we folks shouldn't exist, or have no right to exist as other than the door knobs we must be because we don't know our place or station.
2. How can the US economy function as an unpopular nation in the world community?
We are the largest economy the planet has ever known, despite being the most reviled nation the planet has ever known -- if we are to believe our station as defined by folks who don't like us for whatever reason du jour floats their boats.

Obviously, America already is liked by too many people who feel compelled to break into the US becuase there's nowhere else on the planet worth going to, or staying in.

Who cares what places like that think about us? We could stand to be liked a whole lot less.

I'm not a self-loather, and I don't think I've ever expressed self-loathing. Nor have I ever loathed or written-off my country. But you misrepresent my attitude very similarly to the way Mr.G has above.
[your comments have always been guilt ridden and cynical. that's my general impression of you. not to say that you're unpatriotic. as you said: "I've never written off the tremendous potential of my country". you love the potential... but all you pointing out is the non-achievement of that potential (e.g. the craziness of fascist redneck/neocon/Islamophobes from Kentucky who have itchy trigger fingers.]

I suspect this touchiness is a reaction to the same event: The very bandwagon that Ronald Reagan once so deftly drove is now stuck in a ditch, thanks to Dubya. So in the midst of the ensuing right-wing Chinese-fire-drill, you're eager to make vague accusations that other perspectives have hang-ups, in hopes that nobody will notice that the neoconservative movement is a basket-case.

I believe that my worldview not self-loathing or unpatriotic, but more progressive than yours. It's apparent that similar outlooks to mine are gaining in number, while those similar to yours are sharply declining. Such a predicament would probably make me defensive too, and I do feel a little bit sorry for you.
[actually i've been feeling pretty optimistic lately. the conservative movement is much more organized now than it was in the 60s, or in the current conflict, say... in 2003-4. the viciousness and bias and destructiveness and plainly bad judgement of the left has been getting some attention recently, even without the organized effort of the Right to expose it. and i think people see that "neocons" aren't that crazy (and that libs are ;)). hey, Bush even learned to pronounce words. that's gotta buy him some points. i donno. you see things are shifting towards the left, i see the opposite. we can't know for sure. all i know is that i'm feeling optimistic.]

anyway,

this topic isn't even about these things. it's about Arab countries allying themselves with Israel against Iran. this makes complete sense to me. doesn't it to you?

otheadp: "the conservative movement is much more organized now than it was in the 60s, or in the current conflict, say... in 2003-4. the viciousness and bias and destructiveness and plainly bad judgement of the left has been getting some attention recently, even without the organized effort of the Right to expose it. and i think people see that "neocons" aren't that crazy (and that libs are )."

Haven't you noticed the cabinet and appointee rats jumping ship; the sudden split between neocons and Christian evangelicals (AIPAC's core - look out!); the mid-term elections rout, and the deepening, widening legal recriminations?

I'm not suggesting anyone should write off the USA, unless Dubya's gang make a play for suspending elections in 2008, and the People fail to put them in prison or exile. And I'm not worried about that, because I've noticed that the present Administration is as inept as it is corrupt.

"hey, Bush even learned to pronounce words. that's gotta buy him some points."

Dubya takes great pains to e - nun - ci - ate now. Except when he tries to say "nookyular". And except when he starts to emotionally lose it. You never noticed that?

"anyway, this topic isn't even about these things. it's about Arab countries allying themselves with Israel against Iran. this makes complete sense to me."

Yes, but you've never acknowledged one pesky detail, even though it's as obvious as Dubya's deficiency:

Arabs hate Zionist apartheid. You might want to fix that little rift first, if you really want Israel to be an equal partner in the Mideast. Sometimes seemingly insignificant details have a tremendous impact. You'll never become an efficient Zionist without attention to detail.

"Mr. G: I was speaking for folks that "you folks" otherwise don't speak for because we folks shouldn't exist, or have no right to exist as other than the door knobs we must be because we don't know our place or station."

I try to speak for myself. Can you be more specific about the "folks" you're vaguely describing- who do you mean by your "folks" and "We"?

"we don't know our place or station."

Who's "we"?

"[The United States is] the largest economy the planet has ever known"

Wrong.

"despite being the most reviled nation the planet has ever known"

Also wrong.

"America already is liked by too many people who feel compelled to break into the US becuase there's nowhere else on the planet worth going to, or staying in."

And wrong again. There are far more economic refugees, legal and otherwise, elsewhere in the word.

"Who cares what places like that think about us?"

What a great business model (not).

"We could stand to be liked a whole lot less."

Or fall down that way.

Arabs hate Zionist apartheid. You might want to fix that little rift first, if you really want Israel to be an equal partner in the Mideast. You'll never become an efficient Zionist without attention to detail.


oh, but i do. see, you're an ideologue, you believe in simple pure ideology... it is folks like you who make it hard to achieve peace in the M.E. (read Dershowitz's "The Case for Peace (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Peace-Arab-Israeli-Conflict-Resolved/dp/0471743178)" and you'll know what i mean).
me, as someone who reads all the "zionist" newspapers (left, right, and center), and as someone who knows the people (Israelis and Arabs) from personal encounters, and as someone who lived there, i'm a bit more aware about the pragmatism of the people on the ground, as well as the fanaticism of others.

in the last few years i've noticed a trend -- the warming of other Arab countries towards Israel. there's lots of talk about unofficial contacts, group-normalization by some countries (it is easier for them to do so as a group than if they do it individually), Israeli envoys (cultural, economic, medical, etc.) travelling to previously "unchartered" countries (e.g. UAE...), the Arab Peace Initiative spearheaded by Saudi Arabia (of all countries! ... that's what started softening my attitude towards S.A.) the recent rumours that there will be a change of that initiative (more favourable towards Israel)... there's lots of stuff like that.

this goes to show you that the purity of the "Arabs hate Zionists" argument is stupid and plain wrong.

then there's the other argument that even if, then this will be a marriage of convenience. US and USSR were allies before WWII... weren't they?
and the rumours of that marriage of convenience are coming from Arab sources... not Israeli. you can't say it's zionist propaganda, can you?

Can you be more specific about the "folks" you're vaguely describing- who do you mean by your "folks" and "We"?

Who's "we"?

Wrong.

Also wrong.

And wrong again.
Oh, man. Don't let reflection of the Sciforums' lingua franca fail you when you most need it.

Where's that fabled operational grasp of all things nuanced you folks are so endeared to, except when you have to ask for the spelling?

otheadp: "it is [ideologues] like you who make it hard to achieve peace in the M.E. (read Dershowitz's..."

Alan Dershowitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz) is not an ideologue?

"as someone who knows the people (Israelis and Arabs) from personal encounters, and as someone who lived there, i'm a bit more aware about the pragmatism of the people on the ground, as well as the fanaticism of others."

How can you be sure? I've been around too, having lived in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon, and visited many other Mideastern countries. I once sold a few training airplanes to the IAF, and I genuinely enjoyed the company of Israeli officers through the process. I've gotten to know many wonderful Jews.

"i've noticed a trend -- the warming of other Arab countries towards Israel."

When Israel becomes an Arab country (as your phrase above would seem to suggest), or at least a country where Palestinians have equal right of return among other basic liberties, then there will certainly be a fantastic warming. It's oppressive policy, not culture, and not religion that is the major problem between Israel and her neighbors.

"there's lots of talk about unofficial contacts"

Certainly in Kurdistan. On the present track, you'll have a splendid little proxy war in no time.

"the Arab Peace Initiative"

The peace process has never been in more disarray than it is now. You can't compare this with Camp David days.

"this goes to show you that the purity of the "Arabs hate Zionists" argument is stupid and plain wrong"

There are many Jews who hate Zionists (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/) too.

"rumours of that marriage of convenience are coming from Arab sources... not Israeli. you can't say it's zionist propaganda, can you?"

If you're talking about covert deals, like Israel's involvement in Iran-Contra just before the Reagan Presidency, I'll agree with you that there are many relationships between Israel and her neighbors. I had friends in the Kita'ab militia in Lebanon, who were funded and armed by Israel. I'm sure that there is a lot of Israeli money and weaponry in Kurdistan now. But if you are seriously talking about overt Arab endorsement of present Israeli ethnic policies, then you're dreaming.

Do these Arabs and Jews hate Martin Buber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Buber)?

If so, why?

If not, how can they claim to hate all Zionists?

I'll answer over here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64471), Zephyr since that thread is active now, and even more pertinent to your excellent question.

Do these Arabs and Jews hate Martin Buber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Buber)?

If so, why?

If not, how can they claim to hate all Zionists?

Can you suggest a good book on Buber? He sounds like an interesting person.

Sorry, everything I know about Buber (so far) I read on Wikipedia. Try Amazon.com?

Although books written by him may be even more interesting than those about him . . . if available in English :p

(As Hypewaders answered on the other thread, Buber was a cultural Zionist and not a political Zionist.)